Pokemon Heartgold and Soulsilver In-Game Tier List (MkII)

I think you're overrating Onix' amazing early game a bit too much. It's basically an S up until Morty, but it's utter trash after that. I think a high tier mon should be good for the entire game, or at least a big part of it. Three good matchups isn't gonna cut it in my opinion. I think D or C is a bit more appropriate.


I strongly disagree with Dragonair in B. I used it a while back, and i just didn't feel strong enough to be a high tier. Even disregarding the fact that you have to get it from the gamecorner, and that you have to buy it TM's, it's just not great. The main problem is that its stats are extremely mediocre, and dragon rage isn't helping that in the late game.

I find the argument that you can trade it for Dodrio not particularly compelling either. Not only does this argument have nothing to do with Dragonairs own performance, I don't think Dodrio is a very good reward either. What is it going to do at the e4 with like no movepool? If you have to trade away a Pokemon because it's not as good as the mon that you get back, it probably isn't a very good Pokemon. So if anything, I think this argument actually undermines Dragonair's performance.


I agree with pretty much everything else though, especially Dunsparce. If Marowak keeps up at the E4, I can see it in C maybe. It's probably better than Dugtrio at least.
On Onix (and Geodude partially), I feel that being so good for three gyms warrants B. Put simply, if SM Solgaleo/Lunala are B when they are present for a much smaller portion of the game, I think Onix should be B, assuming that you completely ditch it after Whitney.

On Dragonair, it seems we have vastly different experiences. In my experience it's about equal to Lapras up to Clair, minus the Lapras backtrack, and would definitely be A if not for the endgame. The Dodrio is also very much a part of Dragonair's viability, since making the trade in the first place implies raising Dratini; the traded Dodrio's viability (which is actually not that bad - [Secret Power/Return]/Fly is enough of a movepool by themselves) belongs entirely to Dragonair.

On Marowak, I feel like it could be C if not for availability: because it's in the Desert (which is never in your first Safari Zone visit, meaning you have to wait 3 in-game hours) it's more annoying to get than pretty much all the other Safari Zone mons.
 
On Onix (and Geodude partially), I feel that being so good for three gyms warrants B. Put simply, if SM Solgaleo/Lunala are B when they are present for a much smaller portion of the game, I think Onix should be B, assuming that you completely ditch it after Whitney.
This reasoning doesn't really work because of the difficulty scaling between the early and late game.

The box legends end up so high because they sack the late game which can otherwise be difficult to deal with for many Pokemon, in contrast the early game can be beaten in a reasonable amount of time with a Caterpie.

Early dominance is worth significantly less than late game dominance as a result, and falling off in the late game is a much bigger detriment than a slow start.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
On Onix (and Geodude partially), I feel that being so good for three gyms warrants B. Put simply, if SM Solgaleo/Lunala are B when they are present
Saying how Onix should be B because Solgaleo and Lunala are B in SM is like comparing apples to oranges; those two pairs of games are completely different, have different standards for tiering and have different people leading their lists so the tiering of two Pokemon that have completely differet typings, stats, and performance in a completely different game is not relevant for Onix. Also, it's generally assumed you run with a Pokemon completely, not by "ditching it" at some point; that opens up too many gray areas (e.g. Machop should be S, cause you can just use it for Whitney then ditch it).

The Dodrio is also very much a part of Dragonair's viability
No, it's not. Other than the fact you are essentially ditching Dragonair (thus you are not evaluating Dragonair's ability completely to tier it properly), the fact that you can use it for trade should bare zero relevance to its tiering. One Pokemon's viability doesn't determine other Pokemon's ability (besides, that Dodrio is terrible anyways, what are you doing with it, other than killing some of Bruno's mons). Dragonair has relevance for this Dodrio, as you need it to obtain Dodrio. However, you are not obligated to trade your Dragonair at all for it perform at its best (cause how is it gonna perform well when you literally "ditch" it?) or to even use Dragonair on first place.
 
Also, it's generally assumed you run with a Pokemon completely, not by "ditching it" at some point; that opens up too many gray areas (e.g. Machop should be S, cause you can just use it for Whitney then ditch it).
I do personally believe that Pokemon should be tiered based on the best way to use them, not their entire-run viability, but that is a philosophical argument I won't make here. Tiering based on this probably puts Onix around D, and hurts Dragonair's endgame quite a bit to where I can see it in C rank. This could also hurt Graveler and maybe Golem a bit but I've never actually used it past Whitney.
 
However, you are not obligated to trade your Dragonair at all for it perform at its best (cause how is it gonna perform well when you literally "ditch" it?) or to even use Dragonair on first place.
Well... I mostly agree with what you're saying given the way we tier things, but this isn't quite on the nose. Strictly speaking, the most efficient way to get a Dragonair at a decent enough level - or, in fact, get a Dragonair at all - is to be using one on your team for the whole game. Otherwise your best bet is fishing up a Level 20 Dratini at the Dragon's Den at a 10% rate, which also necessitates that Clair be beaten first. For the trade Dodrio to be used efficiently at all, I think Game Corner Dragonair is practically necessary.

That said, due to tiering philosophy; I would not make this a part of Dragonair's tiering placement and instead just have it in the 'other notes' section of Dodrio's write-up. It's what the section exists for, after all!
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
Well... I mostly agree with what you're saying given the way we tier things, but this isn't quite on the nose. Strictly speaking, the most efficient way to get a Dragonair at a decent enough level - or, in fact, get a Dragonair at all - is to be using one on your team for the whole game. Otherwise your best bet is fishing up a Level 20 Dratini at the Dragon's Den at a 10% rate, which also necessitates that Clair be beaten first. For the trade Dodrio to be used efficiently at all, I think Game Corner Dragonair is practically necessary.
I am a bit confused as to how this connects with the quoted post? Like, for real, I do not seem to get what you exactly read from that, so I'd be happy if you elaborated a bit. I think we all agree getting GC Dratini is more efficient than catching one later, which is probably what causes my confusion.
 
I am a bit confused as to how this connects with the quoted post? Like, for real, I do not seem to get what you exactly read from that, so I'd be happy if you elaborated a bit. I think we all agree getting GC Dratini is more efficient than catching one later, which is probably what causes my confusion.
I guess I misread it? I thought you meant that you're not obligated to use Dragonair in order to have a good trade Dodrio.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
I guess I misread it? I thought you meant that you're not obligated to use Dragonair in order to have a good trade Dodrio.
no, what I meant is "you don't have to trade Dragonair to use Dragonair". It sounds weird, now that I read it. My bad for confusing

e: in case it does not address your misunderstanding, I meant "You don't need to trade it away to use Dragonair and no one obligates you to get the Dodrio on first place"
 
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Feraligatr (42): it 2HKO's everything with crunch (except Jynx, which is OHKO'd). Both Slowbro and Exeggutor can avoid this 2HKO with curse and reflect respectively. The other mons are faster and hit hard with psychic, though you can take Jynx out if you set up agility on Xatu. It's a pretty good matchup, but you need some healing to sweep.

Togetic (42): specs shadow ball 2HKO's everything. The first Xatu can be memed on because he tends to spam me first. Slowbro and Exeggutor tend to waste time on setup, so you can safely take them out with shadow ball. The second Xatu actually attacks, but Togetic can take two psychics and it take it out with shadow ball. Avoid Jynx and you'll be fine.

Ambipoom (41): I tried nasty plot + shadow ball, but you need all three boosts to sweep. This can only be achieved if the Xatu uses confuse ray on turn 1, which wastes a turn if you hold a persim berry. Then you need to survive two psychics, which is a range. So not very consistant.

If you don't want to go special, you can use shadow claw instead. This 2HKO's everything, and the matchup as a whole becomes very similar to Feraligatr's, except that Ambipom doesn't need agility to outspeed everything. Pretty good matchup.

Marowak (41): it can 2HKO Xatu and Jynx with rock tomb, but both of them are faster and use disruption tools like confuse ray and lovely kiss. Slowbro is 2HKO'd by bonemerang, and it rarely retaliates. Exeggutor outspeeds and sets up sleep or reflect, which turns aerial ace into a 3HKO. Marowak can also take just one psychic from anything, so that doesn't help. Pretty bad matchup.


Feraligatr (43): waterfall easily 2HKO's Ariados with waterfall. You can use the turns that Forretress uses protect to set up agility. Waterfall is only a 4HKO on Forretress though, but then again, it can't threaten you with anything but explosion. Muk is 2HKO'd by earthquake, Crobat by ice fang, and Venomoth by waterfall. You might need a potion, but a sweep is definitely possible.

Togetic (42): 2HKO's all of the poison types with specs extrasensory. Forretress can tank extrasensory well, but you can use fire blast to OHKO it. Actually, I think not using specs at all is viable, because this allows you to fish for ancientpower boosts on Ariados (ancientpower 2HKO's even without specs) and forretress. Good matchup, but you might need some healing.

Ambipom (41): it can sweep with nasty plot. At +6, it OHKO's Ariados, Crobat and Venomoth, and it 2HKO's Muk and Forretress. You have to heal up before you defeat Forretress, so that Muk will use minimize instead of gunk shot. Good matchup.


Feraligatr (43): muscle band waterfall 2HKO's the hitmons, 3HKO's Machamp and OHKO's Onix. You need a lot of luck to actually sweep though, as all of the fighting types can retaliate with a particularly nasty move. Hitmontop has counter, Hitmonchan has thunderpunch and Hitmonlee has swagger. Basically, you need to flinch at least twice to actually sweep. As a side note, swagger from Hitmonlee turns waterfall into a 2HKO on Machamp. Decent matchup.

Togetic (42): it completely walls Hitmontop, so you're free to fish for ancientpower boosts. If you just spam ancientpower, the AI will pick up on that and switch to Onix or Hitmonchan, so you have to alternate between charm and ancienpower. If you have two or three boosts, you can sweep with extrasensory. Normally I'm not really a fan of relying ancientpower to sweep, but in this case you're in no danger at all because Hitmontop is just terrible, so you might as well fish for boosts. Charm is useful in this matchup as well. So overall, it's pretty good, but not reliable.

Ambipom (43): +6 silk scarf swift OHKO's everything. setup is a non-issue because Hitmontop sucks and never uses triple kick. Good matchup.

Marowak (41): earthquake utterly destroys Hitmontop, who uses dig. It also OHKO's Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee and Onix. If Hitmonlee uses swagger, you can even OHKO Machamp. Marowak can take hits quite well too. Good matchup, but you do need some potions.


Feraligatr (43): it can't get past Umbreon because waterfall isn't even a 3HKO. It 2HKO's Gengar with crunch, and you can get around destiny bond with agility. Houndoom is OHKO'd by waterfall (though this is a range) and Murkrow is 2HKO'd by ice fang. Vileplume can take two ice fangs and 2HKO back with petal dance, so try to avoid it. Overall, decent matchup.

Togetic (42):
it can beat Vileplume and Gengar with extrasensory. Gengar tends to take you out with destiny bond though, so watch out for that. Togetic can also shut Murkrow down with charm and defeat it with ancientpower. Umbreon walls it, and Houndoom overpowers it. Decent matchup.

Ambipom (43): normally it's hard to set up on Umbreon because it has double team, but Ambipom can get around this with swift. At +6, swift 2HKO's Umbreon, and it OHKO's Murkrow, Houndoom and Vileplume. You need shadow ball for Gengar. Ambipom outspeeds everything naturally, which is impressive. Great matchup.

Marowak (42): few Pokemon can claim to 2HKO Umbreon unboosted, but Marowak manages it. Houndoom tends to set up nasty plot, so you're free to OHKO it with earthquake. Murkrow can be 2HKO'd by rock tomb. Gengar isn't the greatest matchup because the best move you have agianst it is rock tomb, which is only a 3HKO. Spite and destiny bond can screw you up. Vileplume is a no-go. Decent matchup overall.


Feraligatr (43): Gyarados completely walls it. Gatr 2HKO's all of the Dragonites with ice fang, and it can OHKO Aerodactyl and Charizard with waterfall, but this is a range. Decent-ish matchup, but you have to rely on flinching to beat more than two mons.

Togetic (42):
it can beat Charizard with specs ancientpower, and that's about it. Charm and yawn can be useful too. Bad matchup.

Ambipom (43): if only it had blizzard...

Yeah, Ambipom can't break through the Dragonites, therefore it can't sweep. It's so annoying that the "physical Ambipom", Raticate, does get blizzard. Ambipom can still do damage to Gyarados, Charizard and Aerodactyl with thunder. Passing agility and/or nasty plot to something like Lanturn or Lapras can be invaluable as well. Decent-ish matchup.

Marowak (43): it can easily take on both Aerodactyl and Charizard with rock tomb. It can also tank a hit from the Dragonite with thunder and hit it hard with a rock tomb. It's decent for a Lance matchup.

And now for the nominations:

Tototdile -> A tier

Pros:
perfect availability, well-rounded stats, nice coverage, access to speed control
Cons: lack of power, often relies on flinching moves to sweep

O'l reliable Totodile. It's a very solid Pokemon that is consistantly good, but just not good enough for S. It almost never outright sweeps major fights, but it is also never useless either.


Togepi -> C tier, possibly B even

Pros:
extrasensory gud, plethora of disruption and support tools, great super effective coverage, few bad matchups, fast exp group
Cons: egg time waste (also makes it hard to get one with serene grace), lackluster stats, often relies on luck (metronome, ancientpower)

Looking at its stats, I didn't expect too much from Togepi, but it was actually quite good. It has a versatile movepool with plenty of support options, which makes Togepi almost always useful in some kind of way.


Aipom -> A tier

Pros:
insane speed tier, fast exp, versatile movepool, consistantly good matchups
Cons: kinda frail, relatively late evolution, 4MSS (which is really a luxury problem, tbh)

This thing plays very similar to Raticate. It has similar stats, similar movepool options and similar matchups. What sets Ambipom apart is that it has better stats, faster exp gain and a more varied movepool that includes useful support options like tickle and baton pass. Both are great, so I think A tier is appropriate.


Cubone -> C tier

Pros:
ludicrously powerful, good movepool, nice physical bulk
Cons: terrible availability, relies on thick club (a.k.a. no berry strats), low speed

Cubone is such a hassle to get, because you need to wait three in-game hours to unlock just the ability to catch it, and then you also need one with a thick club. Once Cubone gets going though, it's insanely powerful. It can take out some of the most problematic Pokemon in the game, such as Muk and Houndoom, with just one earthquake. So in short, I think Cubone is worth the wait. It's just that strong.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
Finishing run.

Sudowoodo is level 35, rest is 37

Raticate: if you set up two SDs against Gyara, you will outspeed and OHKO it (on rolls) and the next Dragonair. Kingdra outspeeds and KOs it, so you cannot really beat Kingdra. Regardless, this is not a bad matchup, as it can effortlessly take down half her team.
Sudowoodo: doesn't even beat Gyarados; Gyara is 3HKOed by Rock Slide, but even after a Rock Tomb to secure the KO, it got outsped...
Miltank: if you use an Intimidate fodder, Miltank can beat Gyarados and dent Kingdra majorly; DCurl + Rollout, should it not miss, will outspeed and eventually kill Gyarados and put Kingdra in red (you also outspeed it), though Kingdra will then finish you off. Return is also a 2HKO on Dragonairs, but you need to heal to beat both at once.
Lanturn: Charge Beam 2HKOs Gyarados (no Specs). You ideally want to get a boost on both turns. Dragonairs are all OHKOed by at least +1 Blizzard, while Kingdra is 2HKOed by +2 Thunder (though you will likely need to throw in two-three potions). Overall, matchup can be very good, but it's a bit RNG-y.


Sudowoodo and Lanturn are level 40, rest is 39 (note that I had to train Sudowoodo on wild mons cause it sucked and ended up underleveled)

Raticate: +2 Return OHKOs Sneasel, but you need to go out of your way to either set up more SDs against it or to beat Feraligatr, which survives even +4 Return. Magneton is easily killed if you have Dig. If you set up a SD against Haunter and do not have confusion, you can use Crunch and Return to finish off the rest of his team.
Sudowoodo: takes out Sneasel, Magneton (if you have Dig), and Golbat.
Miltank: Return 2HKOs Sneasel and Golbat and OHKOs Kadabra, while Zen Headbutt OHKOs Haunter. Feraligatr and Magneton are not good matchups.
Lanturn: best way to use it here is Specs. Specs Charge Beam 2HKO Sneasel and if you get two boosts, then you will also OHKO Feraligatr. Switch out against Magneton, heal, then 2HKO it with Surf, and then OHKO Kadabra and 2HKO the rest with Surf. You can also try muscling through with Specs Charge Beam, but watch out for PP running out (you will very likely have to heal at least once).


Raticate and Miltank are level 43, rest is 42

Raticate: only sweeps if you manage to use 2 SDs. +2 Crunch outspeeds and OHKOs Xatu and Jynx. However, Eggy survives +2 Crunch (and Double Edge) and finishes you off with Psychic if you took Xatu's Psychic when you set up SDs. It is very risky to reset up on Slowbro too, as it will just spam Curse and survive one Crunch while it 2HKOs you with Psychic if it decides to attack you while setting up. So, as a whole, a sweep is not very reliable.
Sudowoodo: everything 2HKOs it. At most, it OHKOs Jynx.
Miltank: DCurl Rollout, should it not miss, will kill 4/5 of Will's team, until the last Xatu, which you can also damage with Return before fainting. Missing a rollout is fatal though, as you outspeed everything and if you miss, they will finish you off. (you are very likely to be at like 4-5 HP)
Lanturn: without Specs, Lanturn 2HKOs Xatu with Charge Beam, with +1 or +2 MW Surf being a 2HKO on Jynx (OHKO with rain), which may or may not damage it majorly. First Xatu can spam Me First, thus doing nothing to you if you have Volt Absorb. Eggy forces you out, unless you have Signal Beam (I didn't). It can easily overpower Slowbro with Charge Beam spam and, if healthy, to finish off Xatu. Having Signal Beam helps a lot here.


Lanturn is level 42 (43 after taking out Ariados), Sudowoodo is level 42, rest is 43

Raticate: +2 Return OHKOs Ariados, watch out for poison (though it can set up Spider Web). Against Forry, spam up SD to max and 2HKO it with Double Edge. Then Return OHKOs everything else, only Crobat poses a threat due to Double Team and outspeeding.
Sudowoodo: beats Ariados. Venomoth has Supersonic and Crobat has Double Team.
Miltank: Return 2HKOs Ariados. Against Forry, set up a DCUrl and start a Rollout sweep (it never clicks Protect on Miltank, for some reason). You will have it killed within 4 Rollouts, should it not explode on you. If it does, you also kill Venomoth and Muk in the process, if it doesn't miss. Otherwise, you just have to start from Venomoth and not OHKO Muk, which can then Minimize. Crobat is too RNG-y to be reliable, esp since it will generally finish you off anyways. All in all, this matchup is rather unreliable (though Return also 2HKOs Venomoth. Rollout is the only way to dent Koga majorly).
Lanturn: not bad. If you damage Ariados with Charge Beam (fishing for a SpA boost) then set up Rain Dance, MW Surf will finish it off (even without a boost). Then +1 MW Surf puts Muk in red, so you might as well just Charge Beam again and fish for a SpA boost. Then, after taking down Muk successfully, you OHKO Forry with Surf (+1 in rain and +2 without anything), you can also heal against it. Against Crobat, if you are healthy, reset up Rain and OHKO with Thunder and finish off Venomoth with Surf. It is mandatory for Ariados and Muk not to poison it (Ariados goes for Spider Web at some point, wheres Gunk Shot can miss) for Lanturn to do well.


Sudowoodo is level 42, rest is 43

Raticate: bad. You can beat Hitmontop and Hitmonchan, but Hitmonlee outspeeds and OHKOs with HJK. Onix is 2HKOed by +2 Dig, but has EQ, and Machamp is very obvious when you don't' have prior boosts (though Double Edge does land a 3HKO unboosted).
Sudowoodo: *sad face*. If you teach it EQ, it can do something against Hitmontop? Or it might click Counter.
Miltank: bad matchup. Hitmontop carries Counter, you have nothing for Onix (unless you resort to the Choice Specs Focus Blast meme set I used against Jasmine) and Machamp is obvious. Only Hitmonchan is beatable due to lacking Fighting STAB.
Lanturn: bad. Hitmontop 2-3HKOs with Dig and you are slower than most things. Onix hits hard with EQ, Hitmonchan hits hard with EQ, and Machamp hits hard with Cross Chop (though No Guard makes Thunder always hit it, so you may try to fish for a paralysis). Hitmonchan is the only reasonably beatable thing, as it has no moves.


levels are the same

Raticate: bad. Umbreon has Confuse Ray and Double Team, Gengar outspeeds and hits with Focus Blast. 2HKOs Vileplume and Murkrow with Return, but that's it.
Sudowoodo: only beats Murkrow
Miltank: 2HKOs Vileplume and Murkrow with Return and 3HKOs Houndoom. Gengar has Focus Blast and Umbreon has Double Team and Confuse Ray
Lanturn: the only way to OHKO Houndoom for sure is to use MW Surf in rain, but you need to have rain set up on first place. Other than that, it really only beats Murkrow (and Gengar, but it dents you majorly with Focus Blast if it hits you, also has Destiny Bond). Specs Surf OHKOs Houndoom on rolls, if you decide to go that route.


Lanturn is level 44, same levels otherwise

Raticate: loses, though it does outspeed most things and can damage them with Double Edge
Sudowoodo: OHKOs Charizard with Rock Slide. Also 2HKOs Aero with Rock Slide while being 3HKOed by Rock Slide
Lanturn: Specs Thunder OHKOs Aero and Gyarados, though Aero hits hard with Rock Slide and, given the high probability of either flinching or missing, it's a matter of luck if you beat it or no. You can also take out Zard. Specs Blizzard OHKOs every Dragonite, but they hit damn hard with Dragon STABs. Just stick to Zard and Gyara, those won't hit it that hard and you can heal against them if needed.
Miltank: read below, I made a special section for it.


I have devoted this section entirely to not clutter up the logs. Anyways, there's a way for Miltank to sweep Lance, but it requires a bit of luck on your side (or rather, lack of bad luck) in order to succeed and that Miltank has Thick Fat. Here's how it happens:

- First, you need an Intimidate fodder for Gyarados that dies to it. Do NOT damage it.

- Second, send out Miltank and set up 3 DCurls against Gyarados. Pray for no crits at all. Then heal up with something, Hyper Potion or stronger.

- Then click Rollout. 3 Rollouts will kill Gyarados. Miltank outspeeds everything bar Gyarados. Pray for no miss

- the next Pokemon is level 49 Dragonite, which dies to the 4th Rollout. 3rd Rollout will NOT kill Dragonite and Thunder Waves you, impacting your Speed, your greatest asset. That's why it's essential to not damage Gyarados at all, so you can stack up Rollouts.

- the next Dragonite, which is also level 49 and packs TWave, dies to 5th Rollout.

- Against level 50 DNite, thanks to DCurl boosts and Thick Fat, you are able to withstand any attack it throws. Fire Blast is a 2HKO without Thick Fat, which is dangerous and means you need to rely on misses. Then you start up the Rollout spam again, after healing of course.

- Rollout kills DNite and Zard. If you finish with Rollout, you can try overpowering Aero, though you will have to heal again.

Main issue with this strat is that everything must go as planned and that you need Thick Fat, which, when considering that Miltank is 4% encounter mon if you wanna use it as early as possible, may not be easily available.


nominations:

Rattata -> B
Unfortunately, Rattata wasn't very great at the E4. I was either unable to outspeed certain threats or those threats managed to survive its attacks and was often threatened with 2HKOs. Other than Koga, Raticate does not dent majorly the E4 for most parts. I think Magnus0 might have had a super high Speed IV (and Attack if I remember his logs correctly?) or something, as I failed to outspeed many of the mons he claims his Rattata did (mine should be around the 20s? The Speed IV range was quite huge, so it's likely there). All in all, based on my own experiences, Rattata should be B. I don't think Guts would have affected it all around, given there's no Orbs to efficiently get statused and the Facade TM is 10% in Lotteries.

Sudowoodo -> D
Sudowoodo is the definition of "good in very specific matchups". It claims some kills against some opponents, but when you are not facing those, it's pretty much a deadweight. D-tier for being somewhat useful, but only sometimes.

Miltank -> B / A
Miltank is a B-tier at worst. It's essentially a Tauros and the differences are pretty miniscule (though Thick Fat one is way better and allows yo uto do stuff against Pryce). Biggest difference is the Lance matchup. Miltank should be A-tier if you put enough emphasis on the strategy I presented above. If it's considered too risky to be worth it, then B. I cannot say which one is more appropriate, as "how much we consider risky and unorthodox strats against Lance" is more of a policy question than something related to Miltank.

Chinchou -> A (though you could potentially make a case for B)
Chinchou, from the moment you catch it, is useful. It is not really bad for Morty (takes out at least 1/2 of his team without many problems) and is one of the most solid things I have ever used against Chuck. Jasmine and Pryce matchups are also pretty great. Its performance in the Team Rocket Radio Tower is also great, being able to singlehandley beat Archer's Houndour line. At the E4, it has a solid matchup against Will if you switch out againt Will and being able to deal with Koga's Crobat reliably is super nice, when that shit has Double Team. Although I wish Karen's Houndoom was a guaranteed OHKO, I am still gonna give it bonus points for being able to at least actually take it down. And the minor contributions for Lance should not be ignored either (beats Gyarados and Zard, also Aero if you are lucky). The things that I can see knocking down Chinchou are the backtrack (which isn't that big, Bicycle + Repels + Sudowoodo shortcut) for it, 7% encounter (or was 8 / 9%? idk) and backtracking for Rain Dance TM (MysticWater is in Cherrygrove so two birds, one stone). Though Chinchou is definitely a handy Pokemon and deserves B-tier at worst.


also Magnus0 just letting ya know, I have used Aipom and I think it's more of C or B, in all honesty (maybe B, I had a bit of harsher views on tiering at an earlier period). Other than Tickle support, I didn't find it special. I do have logs if someone is interested, but they are incredibly short, so I might as well retest it, if there's a demand for it.

Turdterra you want something else tested?
 
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I do remember having a Rattata with a quite good speed IV, though I didn´t specifically go out of my way for it. I also dumped some rare candies on it for Karen, so that might have had an effect there. If Raticate can´t sweep Bruno because Hitmonlee outspeeds it, I think it´s fair to allow the player to use rare candies for this fight as well, without negatively impacting tier placement. Gyarados gets the same treatment after all, and most people seem to want it in S. Also keep in mind that I used berry strategies to get the setup going. Most importantly, a persim berry can be used to waste a turn against Will and Karen because their leads have confuse ray.

All of this is to say that I still think Raticate has an insanely good end game, if you put some thought into it. Maybe B is more appropriate for now, until someone else can share their opinion.

As for Ambipom, I just think that it should end up in the same tier as Raticate. They play very similar to each other, and they have practically the same matchups. I used a bit of an unorthodox strategy in the late game, but it worked out quite well for me, especially against Bruno and Karen. That might be why I had a higher opinion of it. I can say it´s definitely not a C though. B at worst, A at best.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
I do remember having a Rattata with a quite good speed IV, though I didn´t specifically go out of my way for it. I also dumped some rare candies on it for Karen, so that might have had an effect there. If Raticate can´t sweep Bruno because Hitmonlee outspeeds it, I think it´s fair to allow the player to use rare candies for this fight as well, without negatively impacting tier placement. Gyarados gets the same treatment after all, and most people seem to want it in S. Also keep in mind that I used berry strategies to get the setup going. Most importantly, a persim berry can be used to waste a turn against Will and Karen because their leads have confuse ray.
I actually use my Rare Candies. I am generally around 39/40 after Silver at Victory Road and give around 3 (if I bother to take the one from Mt. Mortar) each. So I did dump Rare Candies on Raticate, which is why I manage to have those level 42s at Will (or 43s).

Gyarados gets the same treatment after all, and most people seem to want it in S
not really, if you get it to level 41 and have 12 Rare Candies, you can comfortably just give it 3 Rare Candies, no need to dump them all on it. Regardless, Gyarados warrants only one extra level above the "norm" (if we consider my 42/43 as the highest reasonably obtainable level and thus the "norm") so I don't thnk it's an issue in the end.

As for Ambipom, I just think that it should end up in the same tier as Raticate
Agreed, honestly. They perform in almost the same manner, with Rattata having the earlier availability, while Aipom can be caught in a Friend Ball (and rather easily) so you can use a powerful Return earlier (if my maths are correct, it's like 80 BP. Raticate's at Whitney seems to be around 70, based on damage) and offers the Tickle support you mentioned.

I think it'd be great if someone tested Raticate and gave it a third opinion. What I experienced, I experienced. But maybe mine was an exception, who knows, so if a third person can see how much successs they have with it, it would be very great, if someone is looking for somehing test.

As for myself, I am probs gonna test Gastly (Trade) and something else. I remember it had an A performance, but it relies somewhat on inaccurate moves + the Gastly period can be a turnoff, but Idr how I got through it, which this test will aim at debunking. I am also gonna test Lapras. It's ikely B-tier, based on previous experiences, but it's a Pokemon that we will benefit from having a test (unless I devise a way to beat Lance with it, in which case it gets inflated by one tier). I am thinking of grabbing Magmar as well, had positive experience with it and having a test to confirm its nomination would help a lot. So my team currently is Gastly (Trade) / Magmar / Lapras, 4th mon can be a request from anyone, so as long as I have not used it already (in which case I will just provide a rank and logs, if needed).
 
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Guess we just have to wait for third person to run Raticate...

Ryota Mitarai , it seems like you could use a physical attacker on your team. Maybe Heracross or Pinsir? I'm currently running Scyther, and I'm curious to see how the bug types compare to each other. Getting a second mon before Whitney also helps with keeping Ghastly's level in check.

As for my own run, I'm using Cyndaquil, Sandshrew and Scyther right now. I also need a fourth member, preferably a special attacker. I was thinking of Mr. Mime, Misreavus or Girafarig. Any other ideas?
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
Maybe Heracross or Pinsir? I'm currently running Scyther, and I'm curious to see how the bug types compare to each other. Getting a second mon before Whitney also helps with keeping Ghastly's level in check.
I am gonna pick Heracross, it's something whose rank is debatable (A or S). I have used Pinsir and don't remember finding it more than average. It gets SD end-game, but I think I also had difficulties pulling it off efficiently (but I can just rerun it next run).
 
I am gonna pick Heracross, it's something whose rank is debatable (A or S). I have used Pinsir and don't remember finding it more than average. It gets SD end-game, but I think I also had difficulties pulling it off efficiently (but I can just rerun it next run).
As someone who has used Hera before, try to get it to 19 before Whitney, as then you get Brick Break. Without it your Whitney matchup is not as strong. Does require babying though early on.

Will post logs later but Slugma is hot garbage, everything else I used was good. Mamo needs babying early on but once it gets going it is so good, best mom in the late game.
 
Quilava (15): it OHKO's Pidgey with ember. Pidgeotto is 3HKO'd, but it's so close to a 2HKO that a burn can get Pidgeotto off. Good matchup.

Quilava (18): easily runs through the gym with ember

Sandshrew (15): rock tomb is a 2HKO on Scyther, so you can beat it as long as you don't miss. It OHKO's the cocoons as well. Good matchup, but you might need some healing if Scyther decides to use u-turn on turn 1.

Quilava (20): fire blast can OHKO Clefairy, but you have to equip a charcoal. Miltank outspeeds and uses stomp most of the time, so you'd be lucky to hit fire blast between flinching and shaky accuracy. If you do land fire blast though, you can OHKO Miltank, but only if you are also in blaze range. Lots of ifs and buts makes this matchup inconsistant.

Sandshrew (19): it can 2HKO Clefairy reliably with dig. Miltank outspeeds and flinches you to death. Rock tomb can be decent support, but you'd be lucky to land even one. Mediocre matchup.

Scyther (18): 2HKO's clefairy with u-turn. It outspeeds Miltank, but u-turn is only a 3HKO. You can take one rollout, but making Miltank use rollout at all can be very dangerous. Because Scyther is faster than Miltank, you can use one leer before using u-turn. This allows it to take Miltank down if it took a bit of damage beforehand. Decent matchup.

Quilava (24): another potentially good, but inconsistant matchup. Quilava outspeeds and OHKO's the Ghastly and the Haunters with Fire blast. Gengar outspeeds, but Quilava can take one shadow ball, so you can """safely""" get into blaze range. If you miss any fire blast, you're screwed. If Gengar lands a hypnosis, you're also screwed (and you need charcoal, so no lum berry). Inconsistant matchup again.

Sandslash (23): shadow claw OHKO's the Ghastly and the Haunters. With a lum/chesto berry, you can take them all out. Gengar outspeeds and OHKO's with shadow ball though, so there's nothing you can do there. Decent matchup

Scyther (23): pursuit OHKO's the Ghastly and the Haunters. It's a 3HKO on Gengar if you factor in the sitrus berry. Gengar outspeeds though, so you can't reliably win against it solo. Still it's a good matchup.

My thoughts so far:

Quilava: it's very strong, but also unreliable. Fire blast is a nuke, but it's not much use outside of important fights because it has such low pp. Its coverage is terrible, but there haven't been too many water and rock types so far.

Sandslash: it's pretty strong with STAB on dig. Its physical bulk is great, but its special bulk really isn't. Matchups have been allright. I think it will end up in C or B.

Scyther: it is quite annoying to catch because you definitely want one with technichian. Once you have it though, it's amazing. It's very fast, and technician STAB wing attack destroys everything that doesn't resist it.
 
Good day everyone. I have some info on a rare pokemon that I used almost two years ago. I will present this in a write-up style.

yanma.png

Yanma! Would probably suggest D/E Tier.

Availability - Route 35, which is just after Goldenrod. You do not need a third badge to find it, which means it can participate in gym battles starting with Whitney. However, I am here to warn some of you that it has a ridiculous 1% encounter rate in the grass, and cannot be obtained elsewhere within the game. Luckily in my playthrough I found a Modest natured Yanma, which is great for it, though I took longer than an hour to find it. It evolves into Yanmega starting at Lv33 as long as you let it learn Ancient Power.

Typing - Bug/Flying, which is not so great for HGSS. Does not resist too many relevant typings and is weak to some common ones.

Stats - 65/65/45/75/45/95 as a Yanma and 86/76/86/116/56/95 as Yanmega. Pretty good speed tier, and great special attack which can become destructive with Choice Specs. However, while its physical bulk of 86/86 is solid, its special bulk is rather poor.

Movepool - Quite shallow; it does not even get a level up STAB until much later in the game. Since it appears that you guys are allowing time manipulation, you can teach it Silver Wind from the Goldenrod department store. Wish I had known that when I did my playthrough, because I was stuck with U-Turn (from Bugsy) and Uproar (which is only 50 base power in these games). Ancient Power did hit regular trainer pokemon for good damage but I do not think it had much value in relevant battles. It becomes much better when you get Air Slash, but it is learned at Lv49.

Major Battles - Yanma/Yanmega had little to offer for relevant battles, mainly because it is so resisted, or fears taking super effective special hits. Hilariously enough, it is not too great against Chuck because it does not have any Flying STAB for a while. It did have some value against the Elite 4 (but not Lance)--with special attacks (preferrably boosted by specs), it beats Will's Exeggutor and Slowbro, all three of Koga's Bug Types, all four of Bruno's Fighting Types (wow, Onix actually beats something!), and Karen's Umbreon and Vileplume.

While quite powerful late game with its best STAB moves (those taking grinding though), Yanma has little impact in an efficient run of HGSS. I may not be a "tester" for this thread, though I hope this information can save you some work... especially while you are trying to find the thing on Route 35. Have fun babying it too.
 
Having restarted, I'm currently about to face Whitney with the following team; Croconaw, Arbok, Heracross and Aipom. Current gradings are A, B+, B, A in that order.

Arbok/Ekans has pleasantly surprised me so far, I only wanted him as a grass resist so I wasn't leaving Croconaw up on his own against Rival before I could get Heracross and Aipom, but he's excelled so far. Levels up quickly, evolves early, faster than I thought he would be, has access to Glare, Screech, Headbutt and Bite relatively quickly.. the only negative is that he doesn't get physical STAB until after the Elite Four which means he's relying on sheer power. He gets the elemental fangs via relearner too. I'm intrigued as to how he gets on late game, I've loved the fact he can't be poisoned so far (its the little things).
 
Quilava (30): specs fire blast can OHKO Primeape, but good luck landing that. it's about a 4HKO on Poliwrath, not counting Chuck's super potion, so you don't even have enough pp to make it through the battle. Pretty bad matchup.

Sandslash (30): its main damaging move is dig, but that move is pretty bad against Primeape because it gives him free turns to set up double team. It does 2HKO though, and Sandslash can take rock slides well. Sandslash is fast enough to outspeed Poliwrath, surprisingly, but dig doesn't do all that much damage. Surf OHKO's as well, so this is a pretty bad matchup.

Scyther (30): OHKO's Primeape and almost OHKO's Poliwrath with wing attack. Easy sweep.

Mr. Mime was a bit underlevelled because I didn't go all the way back to do the Team Rocket Hideout (no fly). I tested lv 25 first, and lv 27 (rare candies) second so simulate a more appropriate battle.

Mr. Mime (25/27): specs psybeam is a range against Primeape at level 25, but it consistantly OHKO's at higher levels. it's a 3HKO against Poliwrath, if you take sitrus berry into account. At level 27, this becomes a range for a 2HKO. In short, it's a good matchup, but you do have to be 'not underlevelled'. So I recommend clearing out the Team Rocket Hideout first if Mr. Mime is going to be your main answer to Chuck.

Quilava (30): specs fire blast OHKO everything. Missing one isn't too bad, though thunder wave can be annoying. Great matchup overall

Sandslash (30): dig easily OHKO the Magnemite. It's only a 5HKO on Steelix though, which isn't great. You can't even get past Jasmine's potion use either, so you need a total of 9 digs to actually beat Steelix. A defense drop from crush claw can help, but this is unreliable. Decent matchup, but it's a bit dissapointing that it can't beat Steelix without help.

Scyther (30): gets absolutely walled by everything and it dies to thunderbolt. Terrible matchup.

Mr. Mime (26):
specs psybeam is a 3HKO on the Magnemites. Steelix walls it and and OHKO's with iron tail. If you're not running specs, you can encore Steelix into sandstorm though, which is pretty funny. You can also support with screens. Still, pretty bad matchup.

Quilava (32): it can OHKO Piloswine with specs fire blast. it can't get past seel and Dewgong because they have thick fat. Mediocre matchup.

Sandslash (32): it can beat Seel with dig or rollout, but Dewgong and Piloswine both outspeed and OHKO with their ice STAB after an icy wind. Bad matchup.

Scyther (31): it comes close to OHKO'ing Seel, but coming close is not enough. icy wind's speed drop is especially nasty, because both Dewgong and Piloswine do massive damage.

Mr. Mime (31): can easily set up a subsitute on Seel because Seel needs three icy winds to break it. From there, you can start boosting up your special attack with charge beam. At +2, you can 2HKO Piloswine. You should still have a sub up to protect from ice fang. Dewgong doesn't do much damage and it can be 2HKO'd with charge beam. Great matchup.
 
I have to do a small correction regarding Mr. Mime's matchup against Jasmine. He gets focus blast, which should vastly improve that matchup. I just noticed this too late.

Typhlosion (37): specs fire blast 2HKO's the Dragonairs, but Gyarados and especially Kingdra wall Typhlosion completely. Bad matchup.

Sandslash (36):
if you give it a sitrus berry, it can fairly reliably beat Gyarados with rollout. Kingdra always outspeeds and OHKO's with hydro pump, but you can OHKO Kingdra with rollout if it misses. Dig is a 2HKO on the Dragonairs, but dragon pulse 2HKO's back. Not a great matchup.

Scyther (37): you can win by spamming double team. It's a bit scummy, but hey, whatever works. Wing attack is a 2HKO on Gyarados (this is a range) and the Dragonairs. It's a 4HKO on Kingdra if you factor in the sitrus berry. Pretty good matchup, but you will probably need some luck and some healing items.

Mr. Mime (36):
Gyarados outspeeds and 2HKO's with bite. You can prevent thunder wave from the Dragonairs with substitute, and then you can encore them into thunder wave. From there, you can spam charge beam to increase your special attack. After a couple of boosts, you should be able to take out the Dragonairs. Kingdra is 2HKO'd after some boosts, but you should still have the sub up, and Mr. Mime can easily take one hydro pump. Pretty good matchup, but you have to stay away from Gyarados unless you outspeed, in which case you can threathen it with thunder.


Typhlosion (40): specs lava plume 2HKO's both Xatu's and it OHKO's Jynx and Exeggutor. Slowbro completely walls Typhlosion with amnesia though. Pretty good matchup.

Sandslash (40): the Xatu's and Jynx outspeed and 2HKO Sandslash. Exeggutor and Slowbro don't outspeed, but they OHKO. So basically, you can only use one attack, possibly two with a lum berry or Choice scarf. Really bad matchup.

Scyther (41): you can reliably get past Xatu with a persim berry because wing attack is a 2HKO against the first Xatu. X-scissor OHKO's Jynx and Exeggutor. It's a 2HKO on Slowbro, but if he uses curse and then gets full restored, it can become a problem. The last Xatu is 3HKO'd by wing attack, but it 2HKO's back with aerial ace. You can't reliably beat it. Overall, pretty good matchup.

Mr. Mime (40): you outspeed the first Xatu, so you can set up a subsitute safely. Xatu always uses confuse ray, so you can encore it into confuse ray. Shadow ball 2HKO's everything, and nothing can really touch you either. The AI doesn't seem to know what subsitute does, so all of Will's Pokemon repeatedly try to use their status moves on you. So basically, you can sweep without getting hit once. Great matchup.


Typhlosion (41): OHKO's everything but Muk and Crobat with specs lava plume. Good matchup.

Sandslash (40): Earthquake 2HKO's Ariados, Venomoth and Muk, although Venomoth outspeeds and 2HKO's back. Forretress takes a while to take down, but it can't do much damage back either. You can hit Crobat with rollout or rock tomb, but this is unreliably because of double team. Decent matchup.

Scyther (41):
it OHKO's Ariados and Venomoth with wing attack. Double team is nice against Muk because gunk shot is already inaccurate. You can get around minimize with aerial ace anyway, so you don't have to worry about missing. Crobat can only be beaten if you already set up some double teams beforehand. Decent matchup.

Mr. Mime (40): specs psychic just barely misses the OHKO on Muk, so specs is generally not a reliable way too sweep. You can set up on Ariados' spider web with the sub + encore combo. This gives you a safety net against Muk. Forretress kinda walls you, but it can't do much back either. Crobat can only be beaten if you have a sub up, and even then it's not reliable because of double team. Venomoh is OHKO'd. Pretty good matchup overall.


Typhlosion (41): specs lava plume 2HKO's everything, but Typhlosion isn't bulky enough to take repeated hits. Meh matchup

Sandslash (41): it can easily beat Hitmontop with earthquake, because the only move that Hitmontop can use to deal damage is dig. The other hitmons are also 2HKO'd by earthquake, but you can outspeed them with scarf. Onix is 2HKO'd by earthquake as well, but it can't do anything back. Machamp is too bulky for Sandslash to take down. Decent matchup.

Scyther (41): Hitmontop can't touch Scyther, so you're free to spam double team. Scyther can't beat Onix and Machamp without double team. Pretty good matchup, thouch a little luck dependent.

Mr. Mime (41):
specs psychic OHKO's everything but Machamp. Hitmonlee outspeeds though, so you can take either Machamp or Hitmonlee down, but not both. Not without healing at least. You can also try to encore Hitmontop into counter to buy time to use charge beam. With a boost or two, you can OHKO Bruno's entire team. Good matchup.


Typhlosion (41): specs lava plume OHKO's Vileplume and Murkrow. It 2HKO's Gengar, but Gengar outspeeds and 2HKO's with focus blast, so it's not very reliable there. You can muscle through Umbreon, but it's not fast or reliable. Houndoom completely walls you. Decent-ish matchup.

Sandslash (41):
with a choice scarf, it can outspeed and OHKO Houndoom. You can also beat Murkrow fairly reliably with rollout. Vileplume OHKO's you, and Gengar and Umbreon aren't great matchups. All-right matchup.

Scyther (41):
it 2HKO's Umbreon with x-scissor. Murkrow does a lot of damage with pluck, but Scyther outspeeds and 2HKO's it with wing attack. Vileplume and Gengar can't touch Scyther at all. Houndoom outspeeds and OHKO's with flamethrower though. Pretty good matchup overall.

Mr. Mime (41):
specs psycic OHKO's Vileplume and Gengar. Specs focus blast 2HKO's Umbreon, but it goes without saying that that isn't reliable. You can OHKO Murkrow with specs thunder, but it's hard to find a moveslot for it. Even Filter won't save you from Houndoom. It's a decent-ish matchup.


Typhlosion (41): useless

Sandslash (42):
it can beat Aerodactyl and Charizard with rollout. Scarf rollout shenanigans can also beat the Dragonites if you're lucky. Not too bad for a Lance matchup.

Scyther (41): it's too weak to do any meaningful damage here. You can try double team sweeping, but this will take very long and it's not reliable anyway. Pretty bad matchup.

Mr. Mime (42):
specs thunder OHKO's Gyarados. It also deals high damage to Charizard and Aerodactyl, but both of them outspeed and OHKO with super effective coverage. Pretty bad matchup.

Nominations:

Cyndaquil -> A tier

Pros:
great stats, perfect availability, good early game, nucluear fire blasts
Cons: terrible coverage, bad movepool in general, often risky in major matchup, late evolution

This is definitely no S, it just has way too many issues. Still, its fire blast is one of, if not the strongest attack in the game. It's powerful enough to OHKO foes like Miltank and Morty's Gengar if you can get into blaze range. This mon gets carried hard by its stats and availability.


Sandshrew -> C tier


Pros: decent power and good physical defense, comes early, one-diminsional but decent movepool
Cons: really bad special defense, few truly great matchup

Sandslash is a very one-dimensional Pokemon. This doesn't have to be a problem per se, but for Sandslash it just means that it doesn't have good options for major matchups. It doesn't do well in most gym fights, but it does become much better once you unlock the choice scarf. This item gave it some much needed oomph for the E4 matchups.


Scyther -> B

Pros:
great stats, technician, phenomenal route cleaner, double team memes
Cons: annoying to catch, questionable typing, iffy late game matchups

It's a fairly unremarkable offensive Pokemon. It has good stats and a decent movepool. It has some iffy matchups though, and it often has to rely on double team to be useful. This is why I don't think it deserves A, despite the fact that technician wing attack is super strong.


Mr. Mime -> B

Pros:
great typing, pretty good stats, very unique movepool, effective gimmicks and niches in major fights
cons: very hard to catch, has to be babied until psybeam, paper defense, 4MSS

Mr. Mime is such an interesting psychic type. It has a really weird level up movepool that gives it lots of setup opportunity in major fights. Sub + encore is especially useful to trick the AI. It's also just a strong psychic type special attacker, which is always great in HGSS. It comes too late and it has too many issues for A, but it's a great B tier once it gets going.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
started run with Gengar / Lapras / Heracross / Magmar.

Gastly is level 14

Gastly: Curse allows you to easily wear out both of his mons; Pidgey has nothing to hit you with, so you can easily throw in a Potion. Against Pidgeotto, if you manage to put it to sleep with Hypnosis and it sleeps for long enough, Curse will take it down (remember, Roost). Its Gust was like a 5HKO on Gastly. Overall, not the most reliable, but Gastly can be very handy here, even as team support.


Gastly is level 19

Gastly: Night Shade 2HKOs everything, they can't touch it at all.


Gastly is level 20, I used walk through wall to not overlevel any further lol

Gastly: if Gastly is faster, it can Curse Scyther, put it to sleep with Hypnosis and confuse it Confuse Ray. Again, not reliable, but it helps a lot. Keep in mind it has U-turn, so more sleep and confusion turns = better. Kakuna and Metapod are easy to run through due to them not doing anything to you.


Gastly is level 20, did this before Bugsy

Gastly: Night Shade 2HKOs Gastly and Zubat, Croconaw is beatable only with Curse and lucky confusions/sleep, as it has Bite.


Heracross is level 20, Gastly is level 23 (that's insane)

Gastly: can Curse Miltank if faster. Even then, it can live one Stomp (the level 23 one got 3HKOed, so a level 20, for example, can live a Stomp) so it has some utility here.
Heracross: spam BB, gg


Gastly is level 23, rest is 21

Gastly: Night Shade 2HKOs everything bar Croconaw. Croconaw is only beatable with Curse + Hypnosis and potentially Confuse Ray.
Heracross: OHKOs Gastly with Shadow Claw, 3HKOs Croconaw and OHKOs Magnemite with BB and 2HKOs Zubat with Headbutt, but it's faster due to Scary Face and 2HKOs with Wing Attack.
Magmar: Faint Attack OHKOs Gastly, while Fire Blast 3HKOs and OHKOs Croconaw and Zubat and Ember OHKOs Magnemite. Holds Charcoal.


Everything is level 25

Gengar: Shadow Punch OHKOs everything bar Gengar, which is 2HKOed (even after berry), however it OHKOs back with Shadow Ball, unless you play with Confusion Ray and Hypnosis.
Heracross: sweeps. Shadow Claw 2HKOs Gengar even with berry and OHKOs the rest. Gengar can pose a threat if it lands a Hypnosis, as Shadow Ball is a 2HKO (if it goes for Mean Look turn one, you are likely to win)
Magmar: Faint Attack OHKOs Gastly and Haunter and Charcoal Fire Blast puts Gengar in range for Faint Attack to KO it, but Shadow Ball + Hypnosis may end you.


Hera is level 28, Lapras is level 27, rest is 29

Gengar: Shadow Ball OHKOs everything bar Raticate, which you kill with Focus Blast.
Hera: Shadow Claw muscles through Poison-types and BB kills Raticate.
Magmar: spam Charcoal Fire Punch and you win
Lapras: Specs Surf gets an easy win


Hera is level 30, rest is 31

Gengar: Specs Sludge Bomb OHKOs Primeape and 2HKOs Poliwrath (even with berry). Surf is a 3HKO on Gengar, so the matchup is good, overall.
Heracross: 2HKOs Primeape with Aerial Ace and 4-5HKOs Poliwrath. Poliwrath will win, most of the time, unless you heal as it or get lucky with crits.
Magmar: Specs Fire Blast OHKOs Primeape. Hf with Poliwrath.
Lapras: if you set up Rain Dance (which it gets naturally), Thunder will 2HKO Primeape and 3HKO Poliwrath (2HKO discounting berry). However, Poliwrath is a wildcard, as it has Hypnosis. Primeape is also problematic if it clicks Focus Punch turn one instead of trying to set up Double Team.


Everything is level 31

Gengar: Specs Focus Blast OHKOs everything. It's not fun to miss, though, because TWave + Iron Tail dealing heavy damage.
Heracross: OHKOs Magnemites with BB, but gets OHKOed by Iron Tail after Screech. Not to mention BB does laughable damage to it.
Magmar: Charcoal Fire Punch OHKOs Magnemite and Fire Blast OHKOs Steelix. Good matchup
Lapras: Specs Surf OHKOs everything.


Lapras is level 31, rest is 32

Gengar: Thunder OHKOs Seel (2HKO with Sludge Bomb instead) and Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Dewgong. Focus Blast almost OHKOs Piloswine. Overall, good matchup, no matter which route you go, but Piloswine is problematic, potentially.
Heracross: BB 2HKOs everything. Piloswine is outsped even at -1 and is beaten if it sets Hail turn one and doesn't avoid BB due to Snow Cloak.
Magmar: Charcoal Fire Blast OHKOs Piloswine, but don't bother with the rest.
Lapras: Thunder 2HKOs Seel and Dewgong, while Surf 2HKOs Piloswine. Use Rain Dance to make Thunder accurate for the Seel line. They cannot touch you, so good matchup.


current thoughts on members so far:

Gengar
Yeah, this looks like an A-tier. Its "bad" period isn't even that bad, Lick gets it just fine through the early Bug Catchers and Sprou Tower and once you get Night Shade, you consistently 2HKO everything that is not Normal. Most early-game mons also lack moves to hit Gastly with. It also has a very nice utility by Cursing the opposing Pokemon, only being potentially ineffective against Bugsy's Scyther due to U-turn. All in all, because it levels up fast and the bad period is not that bad, Gengar is likely gonna end up in A-tier.

Heracross
A-tier, but that's because I remember its E4 matchup being absolute garbage. So far, it's been great, has not been a deadweight at all in any matchup. Nothing much to say, really

Magmar
Looks like a B-tier to me. It's just a "worse" Cyndaquil, only difference being it has Fire Punch instead of Flame Wheel (and better Attack). But you still want Fire Blast in some situations. Magmar is probs the best Fire-type if you do not pick Cyndaquil, though.

Lapras
This is a bit like a worse Chinchou, they employ similar strats. Lapras requires backtrack that is more tedious than others, but it's been performing in similar way as Chinchou. I'd say it's likely gonna end up in B, unless it demolishes the next matchups or I devise a way to crush Lance with it. Though I do give it kudos for natural Rain Dance.

Mr. Mime -> B
This is a bit surprising, in all honesty. I never expected a Safari mon to be higher than C, due to the fact how dumb the mechanics in all of them are, in general (thank god there's no step limit like the FRLG and RSE ones). Not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing, but just wanted to show my surprise.

Scyther in B doesn't seem that ridiculous. It does, on paper, struggle against Pryce and Jasmine and, similarly to Girafarig, doesn't look great without type matchups, so I'd say I can live with it. I think if you were to hunt a Metal Coat, it'd fix some of its bad matchups, most notably Pryce. Not sure if we are gonna put Scyther and Scizor in the same tier or Scizor's gonna drop in tier because of Metal Coat being thing only on wild Magnemite.

I have used it in the past and have logs, if someone needs them, but they are really short, so not a lot of info can be extracted from them, other than if it wins or loses a matchup.

Yanma! Would probably suggest D/E Tier.
Not sure what Yanma has to even go at D. Even the Silver Wind TM is a 10% chance in the Goldenrod Department Lottery, so you are gonna spend a lot of time clicking the A button. Even then, Yanma still sucks for most fights. It does have some useful contributions at the E4, but honestly, between being 1% encounter, being terrible till it evolves, and requiring a 10% chance TM negate any good thing Yanma brings to the table and probably should just be knocked in E-tier.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
let's finish this run as well:

Lapras is level 32, rest is 33

Gengar: Specs Shadow Ball OHKOs everything.
Heracross: Aerial Ace is around a 3-4HKO just on the Koffing. Not a good matchup. Aerial Ace > Shadow Claw due to Smokescreen
Magmar: Charcoal Fire Blast OHKOs everything, though you don't wanna miss at all, given you have 5 PP only.
Lapras: Specs Surf OHKOs Koffing. Weezing is 2HKOed, but often explodes.


Everything is level 33

Gengar: Shadow Ball 2HKOs Golbat, while Thunder OHKOs it and Feraligatr. Focus Blast OHKOs Magnemite and Sneasel (latter is 2HKOed by Sludge Bomb) and Shadow Ball kills Haunter. A bit luck-based, but if you are not unlucky, good matchup.
Heracross: avoid Golbat. Against Feraligatr, use Counter twice to in order to beat Gatr, who spams Thrash (assuming you are healthy). Then OHKO Magnemite with BB, Haunter with Shadow Claw, and Sneasel with BB, though it's faster, so if you are not healthy, you may be KOed by Icy Wind
Magmar: Charcoal Fire Blast puts Golbat in red. Avoid Feraligatr. Haunter is OHKOed by Faint Attack, Sneasel by Fire Punch (though it's faster), and Magnemite is also OHKOed by Fire Punch.
Lapras: Ice Beam OHKOs Golbat, while Surf OHKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs Haunter and Sneasel. Gatr is 2HKOed by Thunder if you set up Rain Dance to make it perfect accuracy. Keep in mind Haunter likes to Curse, so you may wanna avoid it.


Hera and Lapras are level 34, rest is 35

Gengar: Specs Shadow Ball OHKOs both of his Pokemon
Heracross: Counter OHKOs Golbat if it goes for Wing Attack. Weezing is not winnable at all.
Magmar: Specs Fire Blast OHKOs both of his Pokemon
Lapras: Specs Ice Beam OHKOs everything


same levels

Gengar: Specs Shadow Ball OHKOs Arbok and Murkrow (lol) and 2HKOs Vileplume
Heracross: OHKOs Murkrow with Counter if it goes for Wing Attack and 2HKOs Vileplume with Aerial Ace, who deals laughable damage with Acid. You may have to heal.
Magmar: Specs Fire Blast is an OHKO on everything
Lapras: Specs Ice Beam 2HKOs Arbok and OHKOs the rest. Arbok can be annoying with Glare, but if it doesn't use that (since it may not), you have pretty much won.


Hera is level 34, rest is 35

Gengar: OHKOs Houndour with non-Specs Sludge Bomb and 2HKOs with non-Specs Focus Blast. Houndoom OHKOs Gengar on rolls. Koffing is OHKOed by non-Specs Shadow Ball on rolls.
Heracross: outspeeds and OHKOs Houndour with BB. It OHKOs Houndoom with Counter if it doesn't get flinched by Fire Fang (BB is a 2HKO, also Houndoom outspeeds). Avoid Koffing, as you will be too damaged to beat it.
Magmar: Specs Focus Blast OHKOs Houndour and Houndoom, though the latter is faster, 2HKOs with Bite, and thus can flinch. I probs should have taught Focus Blast for Pryce's Dewgong too, but meh.
Lapras: Specs Surf OHKOs everything


Everything is level 37

Gengar: Specs Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Dragonairs and Gyarados, though Dragonair #1 finishes you off. Best way to use it here is Thunder Gyarados and 2HKO one Dragonair with Bomb without Specs.
Heracross: Best used with Guts. Get paralyzed with TWave so CC OHKOs all the Dragonairs. Don't bother with the rest.
Magmar: not a good matchup, you get 2HKOed at worst by pretty much everything here and you don't have a lot of options to hit anything hard (Focus Blast being the best one).
Lapras: Specs Ice Beam OHKOs Dragonairs (Nevermelt Ice are rolls) and 3HKOs Kingdra, who also 3HKOs with DPulse. If you heal against it (and do not get unlucky with your para), you are likely to beat it.


Gengar and Lapras are level 40, rest is 39

Gengar: Shadow Ball kills Kadabra and Haunter, while Thunder OHKOs Golbat and 2HKOs Gatr (almost OHKOs. Sludge Bomb also 2HKOs) and Focus Blast OHKOs Magneton and Sneasel
Heracross: OHKOs Sneasel and Magneton with BB, while Haunter and Kadabra are OHKOed by Shadow Claw. Gatr is beaten by Countering its Waterfall and then KOing it with BB. Avoid Golbat.
Magmar: Specs Lava Plume OHKOs Sneasel, Magneton, Haunter, and Kadabra and 2HKOs Golbat. Avoid Gatr.
Lapras: Surf 2HKOs Sneasel. In rain, it OHKOs Magneton on rolls, Haunter, and Kadabra, though the latter two outspeed. Gatr is 2HKOed by Thunder (and doesn't do anything to you) and Nevermelt Ice Ice Beam OHKOs Golbat.


Lapras and Heracross are level 43, rest is 42

Gengar: Specs Shadow Ball outspeeds and OHKOs everything. Nothing more to be said.
Heracross: Shadow Claw 2HKOs both Xatu, being able to live one attack from each. It also OHKOs Jynx with Close Combat.
Magmar: Specs Flamethrower OHKOs Jynx and Eggy and 2HKOs the Xatu. You need to heal once in order to beat all 4 of them. Don't bother with Slowbro. You outspeed all.
Lapras: Nevermelt Ice Ice Beam OHKOs Xatu and Eggy, while Thunder 2HKOs Slowbro (if it hasn't set up Amnesia) and Surf 3HKOs Jynx. Jynx is annoying, as a whole, so best to just avoid it.


Same levels, but Gengar is level 43

Gengar: Specs Shadow Ball OHKOs Ariados and 2HKOs Venomoth and Muk. Crobat is 3HKOed due to berry, along with Forry.
Heracross: EQ 2HKOs Muk and 3HKOs Ariados and Venomoth. CC 3HKOs Forretress. Crobat OHKOs with Wing Attack, so no Counter memes.
Magmar:<br />
Lapras: 2HKOs Ariados and Venomoth with Surf. Forry is 3HKOed (2HKOed in rain) and Muk is 3HKOed even in rain, due to Black Sludge. Crobat is 2HKOed by Thunder, which Rain Dance benefits a lot.


Everything is level 43.

Gengar: Specs Sludge Bomb is a 2HKO on everything bar Onix (even Machamp after berry is 2HKOed). Hitmontop has nothing to hit you with, Lee tries to Focus Energy, and Hitmonchan doesn't deal a lot. Gengar manages to survive a Rock Slide from Machamp (from around 71 HP, taking 51). Incredible, in all honesty.
Heracross: EQ 3HKOs Hitmontop (2HKO if it's using Dig). Outspeeds and OHKOs Lee with CC. If at full, Hera lives a Fire Punch from Chan even at -1 and OHKOs back with Counter. Onix finishes it off, if weakened. If at full health, it can also Counter Machamp till it dies.
Magmar: Hitmons and Onix are 2HKOed by Specs Flamethrower, with Machamp always winning this. If Hitmontop hasn't damaged you at all, you can potentially survive an EQ from Onix and thus beat it. Hitmonlee is faster and hits hard with HJK (almost OHKOing). Hitmonchan is easier, since its strongest move would be TPunch.
Lapras: Only beats Hitmontop and Onix. The rest take well its attacks and hit back really hard.


Gengar is level 44, rest is 43

Gengar: Specs Focus Blast OHKOs Murkrow and Houndoom and puts Umbreon in red. Specs Shadow Ball OHKOs Gengar and 2HKOs Vileplume.
Heracross: BB 2HKOs Umbreon and CC OHKOs Murkrow. Gengar is 2HKOed by Shadow Claw, be careful of Destiny Bond. Houndoom outspeeds and kills it. Vileplume is 4HKOed by Shadow Claw. If you have Guts, even better here.
Magmar: Specs Flamethrower OHKOs Murkrow and Vileplume. It 2HKOs Gengar, but it also 2HKOs with Focus Blast. Houndoom lives a Specs Focus Blast, unfortunately, and OHKOs +2 Dark Pulse.
Lapras: Specs Ice Beam OHKOs Murkrow, then she sends out Vileplume, which also dies, then you switch out when she sends out Gengar, then OHKO Houndoom with Specs Surf.


same levels

Magmar is completely trashed here, so not gonna bother with posting logs.

Gengar: OHKOs Gyarados with Thunder. If holding Specs, Thunder will OHKO Zard as well. Aero is faster and OHKOs with Crunch.
Heracross: If it doesn't get flinched, it can live a Dragon Rush and OHKO Dragonite with Counter. Other than that, nope.
Lapras: the only way to do anything worth of something here is to use 3 X Speeds. Thunder puts Gyara in red, while rain Surf puts Aero in red (and Lapras can survive a Rock Slide if healthy enough). If you have enough Speed boosts to outspeed DNites, you OHKO level 49s with NMI Ice Beam and almost OHKO level 50 one. All in all, you are very unlikely to sweep or get past Aero.


nominations:

Gastly (Trade) -> A
This is just so powerful. Again, the Gastly period isn't that bad, it gets out of it pretty quickly and is very handy with Curse and Hypnosis (and Confuse Ray). Gengar could even be S if you were to disregard its occassional reliability on inaccurate moves (and the fact you have to rely on Curse initially), though I don't think Gengar to S is the most ridiculous thing, given it has an amazing performance at the E4 too, but I think A addresses better its issues.

Heracross -> A
This thing's E4 performance is all around the place and its performance against the Rocket Executives isn't particularly amazing either (though it can beat Archer's Houndoom). All in all, it's a great Pokemon, but it's not a thing that's consistent enough to be S-tier, in my opinion.

Magmar -> B
This is pretty much a worse Cyndaquil. It does have access to Fire Punch, making it a bit more reliable as a Fire-type Pokemon, but you are rarely using it over Fire Blast in major matchups anyways (Jasmine comes to mind, but again, it's rare to use Fire Punch in major fights). Given it's rather annoying to find (5% or 10%), I think B suits Magmar better, but A isn't impossible, but I think B is more appropriate, overall.

Lapras -> A?

This one I feel like may have been influenced by a high SpA IV. It performed on a very similar level as Chinchou, as a whole, only having a bit of a better matchup against Clair due to not relying on Blizzard. Anyways, I'd like if someone else also tested Lapras (preferably with a bit worse SpA IV, somewhere around 15?) to confirm my experiences.

by the way, I forgot to upload IVs again...

gastly.jpg
heracross.jpg
magmar.jpg

lapras.jpg


As for next run, I could potentially try Pinsir and check it as well, though, from memory, it looked like C-tier (Pinsir was really bad before SD from the time I used it). I am also gonna try Haunter to test for C vs B, given it doesn't have Thunder or Focus Blast now. I have two more slots open, so if there are any requests, please let me know (if possible, something that is not post-Radio Tower, I am planning on doing those separately to test for E vs D)
 
Sorry about the lack of posts on my part. Bunch of irl stuff that finally got sorted out. Looks like we have a bunch of noms!

Tototdile -> A tier

Pros:
perfect availability, well-rounded stats, nice coverage, access to speed control
Cons: lack of power, often relies on flinching moves to sweep

O'l reliable Totodile. It's a very solid Pokemon that is consistantly good, but just not good enough for S. It almost never outright sweeps major fights, but it is also never useless either.


Togepi -> C tier, possibly B even

Pros:
extrasensory gud, plethora of disruption and support tools, great super effective coverage, few bad matchups, fast exp group
Cons: egg time waste (also makes it hard to get one with serene grace), lackluster stats, often relies on luck (metronome, ancientpower)

Looking at its stats, I didn't expect too much from Togepi, but it was actually quite good. It has a versatile movepool with plenty of support options, which makes Togepi almost always useful in some kind of way.


Aipom -> A tier

Pros:
insane speed tier, fast exp, versatile movepool, consistantly good matchups
Cons: kinda frail, relatively late evolution, 4MSS (which is really a luxury problem, tbh)

This thing plays very similar to Raticate. It has similar stats, similar movepool options and similar matchups. What sets Ambipom apart is that it has better stats, faster exp gain and a more varied movepool that includes useful support options like tickle and baton pass. Both are great, so I think A tier is appropriate.


Cubone -> C tier

Pros:
ludicrously powerful, good movepool, nice physical bulk
Cons: terrible availability, relies on thick club (a.k.a. no berry strats), low speed

Cubone is such a hassle to get, because you need to wait three in-game hours to unlock just the ability to catch it, and then you also need one with a thick club. Once Cubone gets going though, it's insanely powerful. It can take out some of the most problematic Pokemon in the game, such as Muk and Houndoom, with just one earthquake. So in short, I think Cubone is worth the wait. It's just that strong.
Good to see that we have another A nom on Totodile. I would say one more test and we can have a consensus on it being in A.

Togepi C/B is very surprising. We would definitely need to test it more.

I agree with Ryota. I used it awhile back, albeit improperly. I really do not see it in A. B is the more likely candidate here.

Cubone is a mon that could be C but it's glaring issues may cause it to be D as well. As you have stated in it's cons section, that is quite a hefty gap it has to close to reach C. Cubone will need some more tests.

Yanma! Would probably suggest D/E Tier.
Yanma I don't see making it to D unless someone wants to test it. Your post states most of its issues, but 33 is a VERY late level in HGSS compared to other games. Since there is no way you are getting a level 49 by Lance, you are using Silver Wind. I'm not saying you cannot have a level 49 but that's not efficient and most tests end on Early 40's to mid 40's.

Cyndaquil -> A tier

Pros:
great stats, perfect availability, good early game, nucluear fire blasts
Cons: terrible coverage, bad movepool in general, often risky in major matchup, late evolution

This is definitely no S, it just has way too many issues. Still, its fire blast is one of, if not the strongest attack in the game. It's powerful enough to OHKO foes like Miltank and Morty's Gengar if you can get into blaze range. This mon gets carried hard by its stats and availability.


Sandshrew -> C tier

Pros: decent power and good physical defense, comes early, one-diminsional but decent movepool
Cons: really bad special defense, few truly great matchup

Sandslash is a very one-dimensional Pokemon. This doesn't have to be a problem per se, but for Sandslash it just means that it doesn't have good options for major matchups. It doesn't do well in most gym fights, but it does become much better once you unlock the choice scarf. This item gave it some much needed oomph for the E4 matchups.


Scyther -> B

Pros:
great stats, technician, phenomenal route cleaner, double team memes
Cons: annoying to catch, questionable typing, iffy late game matchups

It's a fairly unremarkable offensive Pokemon. It has good stats and a decent movepool. It has some iffy matchups though, and it often has to rely on double team to be useful. This is why I don't think it deserves A, despite the fact that technician wing attack is super strong.


Mr. Mime -> B

Pros:
great typing, pretty good stats, very unique movepool, effective gimmicks and niches in major fights
cons: very hard to catch, has to be babied until psybeam, paper defense, 4MSS

Mr. Mime is such an interesting psychic type. It has a really weird level up movepool that gives it lots of setup opportunity in major fights. Sub + encore is especially useful to trick the AI. It's also just a strong psychic type special attacker, which is always great in HGSS. It comes too late and it has too many issues for A, but it's a great B tier once it gets going.
Also glad to see Cyndaquil is looking like A. Another test or two on Quil and I can put it down for a consensus.

Sandshrew in C is interesting. After Gen 1, the mon was pretty lackluster as it's level up moves were very bad, Dig had been nerfed, and it didn't get fun to use until Gen 5. Needs some more tests.

Scyther is pretty intriguing at B. My personal experiences with it are great, though I do know that some fights for it are impossible, example being Jasmine. Currently it is slated in A, but we could see it fall maybe? Scizor I would tier either B or A. Those resistances it has are nothing to scoff at.

Mr. Mime surprises me. I will need to personally test that myself. I didn't think a Safari mon was gonna break the mold of Cs.

Gastly (Trade) -> A
This is just so powerful. Again, the Gastly period isn't that bad, it gets out of it pretty quickly and is very handy with Curse and Hypnosis (and Confuse Ray). Gengar could even be S if you were to disregard its occassional reliability on inaccurate moves (and the fact you have to rely on Curse initially), though I don't think Gengar to S is the most ridiculous thing, given it has an amazing performance at the E4 too, but I think A addresses better its issues.

Heracross -> A
This thing's E4 performance is all around the place and its performance against the Rocket Executives isn't particularly amazing either (though it can beat Archer's Houndoom). All in all, it's a great Pokemon, but it's not a thing that's consistent enough to be S-tier, in my opinion.

Magmar -> B
This is pretty much a worse Cyndaquil. It does have access to Fire Punch, making it a bit more reliable as a Fire-type Pokemon, but you are rarely using it over Fire Blast in major matchups anyways (Jasmine comes to mind, but again, it's rare to use Fire Punch in major fights). Given it's rather annoying to find (5% or 10%), I think B suits Magmar better, but A isn't impossible, but I think B is more appropriate, overall.

Lapras -> A?

This one I feel like may have been influenced by a high SpA IV. It performed on a very similar level as Chinchou, as a whole, only having a bit of a better matchup against Clair due to not relying on Blizzard. Anyways, I'd like if someone else also tested Lapras (preferably with a bit worse SpA IV, somewhere around 15?) to confirm my experiences.

by the way, I forgot to upload IVs again...
Don't worry too much about IVs. Only if the IVs would make a difference in your opinion.

Good to see Gengar is up there. A couple more tests on Gengar and we can put him in his tier.

Heracross coming in with another A. At this point, I think we can put Hera in A (Consensus) now.

Magmar in B. Not bad. It's definitely a worse Quil, but also the best Fire if you don't get Quil.

Glad to see Lapras may have a potential in A. Since I am planning on using it, that will give us another test under its belt.


Thanks everyone for your continued tests and discussions!
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
I've started a new run with Haunter / Pinsir / Stantler / Growlithe. The latter three are just worse versions of stuff I've already used, so I think I already know their tier.

This Gastly I am using has the same matchups as the one I used previously, so I am not gonna report its performance till Morty (where it's Haunter and not Gengar). You can read more here

Gastly is level 23 again (and I already said it has the same matchup), everything else is level 19 (note that I had to do wild grinding, as I didn't realize Stantler was obtained earlier and thus ended up stacking mons from the same point of the game)

Pinsir: Unboosted Revenge OHKOs Clefairy on rolls, while boosted Revenge is a 2HKO on Miltank. Just be careful of Stomp flinches.
Growlithe: Charcoal Fire Blast is a 2HKO and 3HKO on Clefairy and Miltank, respectively. Miltank is also faster and 3HKOs with Stomp, so don't even bother. You can switch spam with Intimidate to debuff Miltank a bit.
Stantler: Return 2HKOs and 3HKOs Clefairy and Miltank, respectively, but Miltank is faster. You are 4HKOed by Stomp and if you flinch at any point, you need to heal. If you want to, though, you can easily switch spam here with Intimidate and Miltank will become a joke.


Gastly is level 23, Growlithe is level 22, rest is 21. Gastly not reported

Pinsir: BB 3HKOs Croconaw and is good for Magnemite (can't remember if it was OHKO or 2HKO, but not important), while Seismic Toss 3HKOs Zubat. Gastly is only beatable if you run something like Rock Tomb, which can also help with Zubat.
Growlithe: Charcoal Flame Wheel OHKOs Gastly and 2HKOs Zubat (with Fire Blast OHKOing). Magnemite is OHKOed by Charcoal Ember. Croconaw is 3HKOed by Charcoal Fire Blast, if you are willing to fight it, though if you have Mold Breaker, Dig will work just fine.
Stantler: Astonish 2HKOs Gastly, while Return 3HKOs Croconaw and OHKOs Zubat. Magnemite can be muscled through, watch out for confusion, though.


Pinsir is level 24, rest is 25

Haunter: Shadow Punch is an OHKO on Gastly and level 21 Haunter. Level 23 is almost OHKOed, but tends to Curse anyways. Gengar outspeeds and kills you. If you teach Shadow Claw, you will kill level 23 Haunter.
Pinsir: If you have Mold Breaker, Dig will OHKO everything, with Gengar being rolls. However, Gengar and level 23 Haunter are faster, thus for the former, you need it to not hit Hypnosis, while for the latter, you need to healthy to not die to Night Shade.
Growlithe: largely dependent on whenever you evolve or no. As a Growlithe, it's outsped by everything and only 2HKOs Haunter with Charcoal Flame Wheel (and OHKOs Gastly, while Fire Blast 2HKOs Gengar, but cannot live a Shadow Ball). As an Arcanine, it's faster than Gastly and Haunter and also OHKOs all of them with Flame Wheel. Gengar's Shadow Ball becomes a 2HKO, so if it goes for Sucker Punch or Mean Look at any point, you may win. Thus, as Growlithe, matchup is eh, but as Arcanine, really good.
Stantler: Astonish 2HKOs Gastly and 3HKOs Haunter and it can muscle through Gengar. Keep in mind, the Haunter can be hella annoying with Hypnosis and Nightmare / Curse. Hassle to win


Stantler is level 26, rest is 27

Haunter: Shadow Ball kills Zubat and Koffing, but against Raticate, you can only Curse and Hypnosis.
Pinsir: Dig OHKOs Koffing and BB OHKOs Raticate. I had nothing for Zubat, so....
Growlithe: Specs Fire Blast OHKOs everything. With Charcoal, Fire Blast fails to OHKO Raticate, who is faster and 2HKOs with Hyper Fang.
Stantler: Return spam gets you the win


Pinsir is level 29, rest is 30

Haunter: Specs Sludge Bomb is an OHKO on Primeape, however, due to Sitrus Berry, Poliwrath is a 3HKO and thus you cannot really win here.
Pinsir: BB 3HKOs Primeape, but Rock Slide is a 2HKO on Pinsir. Not a great matchup, overall (and if it wasn't clear, Poliwrath is not a good matchup).
Growlithe: Specs Fire Blast puts Primeape in red, though it's faster and can either annoy you with Double Team or 2HKO with Rock Slide. Arcanine will OHKO Primeape
Stantler: Return 2HKOs Primeape, watch out for DTeam + Focus Punch. Poliwrath is generally a loss, unless you counter with your own Hypnosis for safe turns (3HKOs with Return after Leer).


same levels

Haunter: at most takes out one Magnemite by 2HKOing with Specs Shadow Ball. Nothing else, though.
Pinsir: Dig OHKOs Magnemites, though Pinsir struggles against Steelix
Growlithe: Specs Fire Blast OHKOs everything, though TBolt 2HKOs it, so don't miss at all.
Stantler: ...does not have anything for Jasmine. However, it can Leer Steelix at least three times, as it's 3HKOed by Iron Tail after Intimidate


Growlithe is level 30, rest is 31

Haunter: Specs Shadow Ball 2HKOs both Seel and Dewgong and you barely survive to beat both. Unless you heal, Piloswine will finish you off
Pinsir: X-Scissor 2HKOs Seel while BB 2HKOs and 3HKOs Dewgong and Piloswine, respectively. Avoid Piloswine, as Blizzard is a 2HKO.
Growlithe: Specs Fire Blast OHKOs Piloswine, but don't bother with the rest.
Stantler: 2HKOs Seel and 3HKOs Dewgong with Return, just hope that Sleep Talk will derp. Avoid Piloswine


current thoughts on members so far:

Haunter
This has not been doing great since Morty. Lack of Thunder and Focus Blast really hurt its viability. Hell, the fact it cannot even get past Petrel completely is really depressing. I can see C-tier as final rank, but I will let the E4 decide for me.

Pinsir
Main issue with Pinsir is obtaining it, as it's not easy to catch and is not very common too. If you get one with Mold Breaker, it will actually do quite well against Morty. Though Chuck is a bit disappointing, in all honesty. It's either C or B, the E4 will decide this for me.

Growlithe
So far, it does seem that evolving immediately provides some more efficient matchups. However, I want to see if Flamethrower would be useful at the E4. Anyways, as for Growlithe, Arcanine is a solid B right now, with Growlithe being C-tier. If Arcanine can do well at the E4 without Flamethrower, I will give it B. If it turns out that the only way to do well there is by holding off evolving Growlithe, I will nom it to C

Stantler
The most disappointing Normal I've used so far. It's the most unreliable one against Morty and has no means of getting past Jasmine. I'd say C-tier is the rank I am currently heading towards.

gastly_2.jpg

pinsir.jpg

growlithe.jpg

stantler.jpg
 
I'm bored...

I'm gonna use Noctowl, Venomoth, Primeape and Dewgong.

Hoothoot (12): it 3HKO's Pidgey with peck. Hypnosis can buy some time to use growl on Pidgeotto a couple of times. Peck doesn't as much as ticklex Pidgeotto though. Mediocre matchup.


Hoothoot (19): peck is a 5HKO on Scyther. Hypnosis really helps buy time, but it's not reliable. Reflect allows Hoothoot to take four quick attack. Hoothoot also deals with the Cocoons without any problems. Decent matchup.


Noctowl (23): Uproar is a 2HKO on Clefairy (range) and a 4HKO on Miltank. My Noctowl speed ties with Miltank, but it does have a hasty nature and it's overlevelled. Reflect is very helpful team support. Decent matchup.

Venonat (21):
it beats Clefairy, but not reliably. It is absolutely useless against Miltank. Pretty bad matchup.

I actually got stuck here, so I had to evolve Kenya to help. Not really a great sign...


Noctowl (25): utterly walls Morty's entire team thanks to insomnia and normal type, so you literally can't lose. Great matchup.

Venonat (24):
confusion is a 2HKO on Ghastly and a 3HKO on the Haunters. I levelled up during the fight and learned psybeam, which is a 2HKO on the Haunters. Stun spore is very useful utility against Gengar. Decent matchup.

Mankey (21): everything outspeeds Mankey, which is actually a good thing because your main move is payback. Payback OHKO's Ghastly and the Haunters. The Haunter with dream eater gets countered by vital spirit. Gengar straight up OHKO's with shadow ball. Decent matchup overall.
 

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