I'd love to link you guys to the GameFAQs "debate," which has over 300 posts sadly, but it is taking place on a private board and you guys don't have authorized access. I will simply repost their best arguments and you can refute them here. Eventually I will link this topic there anyway. Just give me a moment to collect their arguments. I pretty much summarized them here, and I agree that it's utterly silly that they actually stand by that line of logic. But mob mentalities are mob mentalities... once they start going, it's almost impossible to stop.
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Pokemon Philosophy: Is abusing the RNG cheating?
- Thread starter Blitzkreig Harmonic
- Start date
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Here are some of the posts that are coming from GameFAQs that claim the RNG is cheating. I have already refuted them all myself, but they don't get it. Here you guys go.
"Please, stop with the IV calculator comparisons. They are horrible. The IV calculator doesn't give you a walkthrough on how to improve your IVs, it just shows you a number.
I just find it funny that ACTION REPLAY = BAD yet you're doing the exact same thing. Using outside factors to manipulate the game engine to do what you want. Because there is no way any single person could come up with that stuff on the fly on their own. The only difference is that there's no interaction between these programs and the game itself and it's a completely arbitrary ruling.
I don't really care about the ethics of not using it because it's cheating. Because it's in the game, people are going to use it, and it'll probably push competitive pokemon forward quite a bit since it'll eliminate a lot of randomness and gets rid of some of the silly time requirements for these things."
"I don't think you understand the difference between an EV/IV calculator and abusing the RNG.
Does using an EV/IV calculator tell you where to go and when to catch a Pokemon with the IVs you want? Nope, they just tell you more detailed information about Pokemon you've already caught.
To say that RNG abuse doesn't alter the game is an incorrect statement. It DOES alter the game, just in a more indirect (or direct? I'm not sure what would be more appropriate here...) way; otherwise it wouldn't require you to adjust how you play the game in order to abuse the RNG. It also wouldn't be called abusing the RNG, it would be called using the RNG."
"No, no, no, no, no. Goddamn I hope you're trolling.
The IV calculator shows you your Pokemon's stats in better detail.
The RNG calculator shows you how to catch a premade Pokemon.
With the IV calculator, you find out what stats your Pokemon has.
With the RNG calculator, you decide what stats your Pokemon has.
RNG calculator = more complicated Action Replay.
And that's all."
""HEY GUYS IF THE RNG CALCULATOR THAT SHOWS YOU WHAT TO DO AND WHEN TO DO IT TO CATCH A POKEMON YOU DESIGNED ISN'T CHEATING THEN NEITHER IS THE IV CALCULATOR THAT JUST SHOWS YOU MORE INFORMATION ABOUT A POKEMON YOU ALREADY CAUGHT WITHOUT ITS AID""
"You think that being able to fix the RNG to do your bidding isn't a mistake? That's why it's much more complex to do in d/p than in emerald, right? That's why it took the game being out for over a year to be discovered, that's why you need to use a seperate program to figure out how to do it? It's not random number generator (that can also be fixed if you use the right steps and this is intentional.). It's just a random number generator.
Oh and before you copy paste my post then tack on something utterly irrelevant to it:
Be aware that I completely support the RNG abuse. It's been accepted by the community, which means from there on it's required if you want to stay competitive. And that's fine. And you obviously can't just shark them in because of legality checkers. That's also fine, because if they've sharked this perfect IV pokemon, who knows what else they've done, etc
I'm talking about the fact that the only difference between using an action replay and using this is that legality checker. But take that out of the equasion and whats the difference? You've drawn this arbitrary ethical line right here. That just because the program you use to fix values that are supposed to be random doesn't have any contact with the game, it's somehow more legit? Both action replay and RNG abuse do the EXACT SAME THING. It's just a different method. I don't see how you can disagree with that."
"So gamefreak intended for their RNG to be broken and to be manipulated by players.
You're beyond help."
"I don't care what you do in your games, but don't delude yourself into thinking that you're not cheating. You're purposely taking advantage of a game's coding in order to achieve something that would be borderline impossible if you were playing the game the way it was intended to be played. You know damn well that Nintendo or GameFreak didn't intend for players to do this sort of thing - that being the whole point behind employing a complex RNG in the first place - whether or not they expected some players to do it anyway. You're futzing with rules like a hack lawyer - maybe your client didn't break the law under exacting technicalities, but he still killed that hooker.
RNG abuse is cheating, full stop."
"Exactly.
The IV calc simply tells you what your current effort has produced. Doesn't say what to do. It just gives harmless numbers that, to you, have meaning.
The RNG calc gives you data and from there you get your results. The results don't come BEFORE the calc. It's cheating, plain and simple."
"ok slm heres one for you. this is honestly my last attempt because everything else that needs to be said has been said.
say i find a way to abuse the rng so that after switching off my first pokemon every hit after that is guaranteed. no misses, ever. As a result, whichever pokemon is the fastest with a one hit kill move suddenly becomes the only choice for any competitive battling. The game just becomes a team of whichever pokemon triggers the RNG to do this and 5 of this fast pokemon with the one hit kill move. this is through knowledge of the RNG. As a result, the game dies competitively. Is this cheating? After all, it's all in game, it's all through the knowledge of the RNG. You'd think this was fair game because it was through knowledge of the RNG and the RNG is in the game?
if this is cheating, where do you draw the arbitrary definition of which rng abuse is cheating and which isnt?
if this isnt cheating, but shouldn't be allowed in competitive play, why is getting perfect IV pokemon fine, but this isnt? After all, you're just manipulating the RNG so it always lands on hit, whereas with what we have now you're just manipulating it so it always lands on 31.
it's really dire when I've reached the point of making this ****ing ridiculous comparison but maybe it'll get through to you. Maybe.
just amazes me that someone can really argue that breaking a random number generator is an intended game mechanic. i've argued with some ridiculous people on the internet but this takes it to new levels."
"They're allowed to use the knowledge all they want, but it's still called cheating. It doesn't matter that GameFreak might not have made the RNG perfectly, they had an intention and did their best to make the rules of the game reflect that; you just found a little loop-hole in the rules that allows you to accomplish what you want, but using it is still directly violating the intentions of the rulemaker. You're following the letter of the law, rather than the spirit of the law. You're cheating.
As others have said, you're making your own luck. You're using loaded dice."
"
Your example is a lot more like using X ray vision so you can see whats under the cups, then grabbing the cups and moving them around so they're exactly where you want them to be. And also that the coin placed under the cups has thousands of different versions depending on when and where the cup was lifted and the actions that occured before the lifting.
Like other people have said, it's the equivalent to playing the game with loaded dice or card counting. The whole point of the thing is that it's random and you're removing that random element. You've broken the game at this point.
Honestly, rampantly defend it all you want. It's funny that you're so defensive because I'm willing to bet most of the people on smogon who actually find this stuff out would simply admit they've broken part of the game engine. That's the entire point of what they're doing, they're not delving into the games code to find things that they can already do with it.
It really is the equivalent of walking into a casino with loaded dice. But you'd never do that, because it's cheating."
"If you take something that's supposed to be random -- hence RANDOM number generator -- and remove the random element, yeah, that's breaking it.
As has been said so many times in this topic, EVERY game as glitches and exploits that can be performed without a cheat device. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. That doesn't make them legit. You weren't intended to determine a wild Pokemon's stats by flipping a coin several times. That's not how the game is meant to work. NO. IT'S NOT. STOP SAYING IT IS. POKEMON IS NOT INTENDED TO WORK THAT WAY. IF YOU HONESTLY THINK IT IS THEN I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT TO SAY TO YOU ANYMORE.
If you want to cheat and abuse the RNG, that's fine. Nobody will have a problem with it. But don't ****ing pretend that you're not cheating."
"Making the random non-random is cheating. If you waited 35 and a half seconds to guarantee an Silver Wind boost you would obviously be cheating. The rules don't magically change for some other section of the game."
"Let me give another example. I'm playing monopoly, except I've mastered the art of die rolling so well that I can force numbers to show up on command. Dice are implicitly intended to be random. Even if I've learned to manipulate them through skill I'd still be cheating by doing that. The rules don't expressly forbid loaded dice (or maybe they do, I dunno. Lets assume not) but I've given myself an unfair advantage and gone against the spirit of the game."
"RNG is cheating, it's method to change the outcome in the actual game by external means. The iv checker does not change anything within your game thus it's not cheating. I understand the justifications of those that stand by it as "legit" but it's simply another way altering the games function just like a AR code device."
"Another point you'll probably disagree with then is that the rules of the game are not necessarily what the game is programmed to do. A lot of the rules are implicit, like randomness actually being random. When you do things like manipulate the rng to get stuff you've cheated, plain and simple. Stacking the deck is against the rules."
"Basically, pokemon have randomly generated values for each stat that give bonuses on top of the base stats. These range from 0-31. So if a pokemon has 20 in speed, it'll have 10 more speed at level 100 than a pokemon with only 10 IVs in speed. it stands for indivual value.
Basically, you can't view it anywhere in the game, but there are programs that can be used to calculate it (because they know what the stats would be before IVs.) by inputting your pokemons level, stats, and EVs.
EVs are different. They're a stat boost given based on pokemon you've killed. You can have a total of 512, a maximum of 255 in each stat, and for every 4 in a stat you gain an extra point. So say a ratatta gives +1 speed EV, kill 4 and get an extra point in speed. once again you can't see this value, but there's even an item in the game that lets you double the rate you gain them at.
so basically, all an IV calculator does is show you a stat. you'd have to be high to think its the same as abusing the rng"
"Holy ****.
You still don't get it do you?
Listen, you're screwing with how the Random Number Generator works to make it not random. "Oh but we're just timing it." **** that, there's no difference. You wouldn't want me timing all my Thunders to be critical hits with 100% accuracy and added paralysis, would you?
If you want your perfect shiny 70 HP Grass Heatran go play Shoddy, or cheat. Don't pretend you aren't cheating."
Like I said, I've already refuted them all myself using similar logic to you guys, but I'm pretty sure you don't want to see all of that, it would take forever.
"Please, stop with the IV calculator comparisons. They are horrible. The IV calculator doesn't give you a walkthrough on how to improve your IVs, it just shows you a number.
I just find it funny that ACTION REPLAY = BAD yet you're doing the exact same thing. Using outside factors to manipulate the game engine to do what you want. Because there is no way any single person could come up with that stuff on the fly on their own. The only difference is that there's no interaction between these programs and the game itself and it's a completely arbitrary ruling.
I don't really care about the ethics of not using it because it's cheating. Because it's in the game, people are going to use it, and it'll probably push competitive pokemon forward quite a bit since it'll eliminate a lot of randomness and gets rid of some of the silly time requirements for these things."
"I don't think you understand the difference between an EV/IV calculator and abusing the RNG.
Does using an EV/IV calculator tell you where to go and when to catch a Pokemon with the IVs you want? Nope, they just tell you more detailed information about Pokemon you've already caught.
To say that RNG abuse doesn't alter the game is an incorrect statement. It DOES alter the game, just in a more indirect (or direct? I'm not sure what would be more appropriate here...) way; otherwise it wouldn't require you to adjust how you play the game in order to abuse the RNG. It also wouldn't be called abusing the RNG, it would be called using the RNG."
"No, no, no, no, no. Goddamn I hope you're trolling.
The IV calculator shows you your Pokemon's stats in better detail.
The RNG calculator shows you how to catch a premade Pokemon.
With the IV calculator, you find out what stats your Pokemon has.
With the RNG calculator, you decide what stats your Pokemon has.
RNG calculator = more complicated Action Replay.
And that's all."
""HEY GUYS IF THE RNG CALCULATOR THAT SHOWS YOU WHAT TO DO AND WHEN TO DO IT TO CATCH A POKEMON YOU DESIGNED ISN'T CHEATING THEN NEITHER IS THE IV CALCULATOR THAT JUST SHOWS YOU MORE INFORMATION ABOUT A POKEMON YOU ALREADY CAUGHT WITHOUT ITS AID""
"You think that being able to fix the RNG to do your bidding isn't a mistake? That's why it's much more complex to do in d/p than in emerald, right? That's why it took the game being out for over a year to be discovered, that's why you need to use a seperate program to figure out how to do it? It's not random number generator (that can also be fixed if you use the right steps and this is intentional.). It's just a random number generator.
Oh and before you copy paste my post then tack on something utterly irrelevant to it:
Be aware that I completely support the RNG abuse. It's been accepted by the community, which means from there on it's required if you want to stay competitive. And that's fine. And you obviously can't just shark them in because of legality checkers. That's also fine, because if they've sharked this perfect IV pokemon, who knows what else they've done, etc
I'm talking about the fact that the only difference between using an action replay and using this is that legality checker. But take that out of the equasion and whats the difference? You've drawn this arbitrary ethical line right here. That just because the program you use to fix values that are supposed to be random doesn't have any contact with the game, it's somehow more legit? Both action replay and RNG abuse do the EXACT SAME THING. It's just a different method. I don't see how you can disagree with that."
"So gamefreak intended for their RNG to be broken and to be manipulated by players.
You're beyond help."
"I don't care what you do in your games, but don't delude yourself into thinking that you're not cheating. You're purposely taking advantage of a game's coding in order to achieve something that would be borderline impossible if you were playing the game the way it was intended to be played. You know damn well that Nintendo or GameFreak didn't intend for players to do this sort of thing - that being the whole point behind employing a complex RNG in the first place - whether or not they expected some players to do it anyway. You're futzing with rules like a hack lawyer - maybe your client didn't break the law under exacting technicalities, but he still killed that hooker.
RNG abuse is cheating, full stop."
"Exactly.
The IV calc simply tells you what your current effort has produced. Doesn't say what to do. It just gives harmless numbers that, to you, have meaning.
The RNG calc gives you data and from there you get your results. The results don't come BEFORE the calc. It's cheating, plain and simple."
"ok slm heres one for you. this is honestly my last attempt because everything else that needs to be said has been said.
say i find a way to abuse the rng so that after switching off my first pokemon every hit after that is guaranteed. no misses, ever. As a result, whichever pokemon is the fastest with a one hit kill move suddenly becomes the only choice for any competitive battling. The game just becomes a team of whichever pokemon triggers the RNG to do this and 5 of this fast pokemon with the one hit kill move. this is through knowledge of the RNG. As a result, the game dies competitively. Is this cheating? After all, it's all in game, it's all through the knowledge of the RNG. You'd think this was fair game because it was through knowledge of the RNG and the RNG is in the game?
if this is cheating, where do you draw the arbitrary definition of which rng abuse is cheating and which isnt?
if this isnt cheating, but shouldn't be allowed in competitive play, why is getting perfect IV pokemon fine, but this isnt? After all, you're just manipulating the RNG so it always lands on hit, whereas with what we have now you're just manipulating it so it always lands on 31.
it's really dire when I've reached the point of making this ****ing ridiculous comparison but maybe it'll get through to you. Maybe.
just amazes me that someone can really argue that breaking a random number generator is an intended game mechanic. i've argued with some ridiculous people on the internet but this takes it to new levels."
"They're allowed to use the knowledge all they want, but it's still called cheating. It doesn't matter that GameFreak might not have made the RNG perfectly, they had an intention and did their best to make the rules of the game reflect that; you just found a little loop-hole in the rules that allows you to accomplish what you want, but using it is still directly violating the intentions of the rulemaker. You're following the letter of the law, rather than the spirit of the law. You're cheating.
As others have said, you're making your own luck. You're using loaded dice."
"
Your example is a lot more like using X ray vision so you can see whats under the cups, then grabbing the cups and moving them around so they're exactly where you want them to be. And also that the coin placed under the cups has thousands of different versions depending on when and where the cup was lifted and the actions that occured before the lifting.
Like other people have said, it's the equivalent to playing the game with loaded dice or card counting. The whole point of the thing is that it's random and you're removing that random element. You've broken the game at this point.
Honestly, rampantly defend it all you want. It's funny that you're so defensive because I'm willing to bet most of the people on smogon who actually find this stuff out would simply admit they've broken part of the game engine. That's the entire point of what they're doing, they're not delving into the games code to find things that they can already do with it.
It really is the equivalent of walking into a casino with loaded dice. But you'd never do that, because it's cheating."
"If you take something that's supposed to be random -- hence RANDOM number generator -- and remove the random element, yeah, that's breaking it.
As has been said so many times in this topic, EVERY game as glitches and exploits that can be performed without a cheat device. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. That doesn't make them legit. You weren't intended to determine a wild Pokemon's stats by flipping a coin several times. That's not how the game is meant to work. NO. IT'S NOT. STOP SAYING IT IS. POKEMON IS NOT INTENDED TO WORK THAT WAY. IF YOU HONESTLY THINK IT IS THEN I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT TO SAY TO YOU ANYMORE.
If you want to cheat and abuse the RNG, that's fine. Nobody will have a problem with it. But don't ****ing pretend that you're not cheating."
"Making the random non-random is cheating. If you waited 35 and a half seconds to guarantee an Silver Wind boost you would obviously be cheating. The rules don't magically change for some other section of the game."
"Let me give another example. I'm playing monopoly, except I've mastered the art of die rolling so well that I can force numbers to show up on command. Dice are implicitly intended to be random. Even if I've learned to manipulate them through skill I'd still be cheating by doing that. The rules don't expressly forbid loaded dice (or maybe they do, I dunno. Lets assume not) but I've given myself an unfair advantage and gone against the spirit of the game."
"RNG is cheating, it's method to change the outcome in the actual game by external means. The iv checker does not change anything within your game thus it's not cheating. I understand the justifications of those that stand by it as "legit" but it's simply another way altering the games function just like a AR code device."
"Another point you'll probably disagree with then is that the rules of the game are not necessarily what the game is programmed to do. A lot of the rules are implicit, like randomness actually being random. When you do things like manipulate the rng to get stuff you've cheated, plain and simple. Stacking the deck is against the rules."
"Basically, pokemon have randomly generated values for each stat that give bonuses on top of the base stats. These range from 0-31. So if a pokemon has 20 in speed, it'll have 10 more speed at level 100 than a pokemon with only 10 IVs in speed. it stands for indivual value.
Basically, you can't view it anywhere in the game, but there are programs that can be used to calculate it (because they know what the stats would be before IVs.) by inputting your pokemons level, stats, and EVs.
EVs are different. They're a stat boost given based on pokemon you've killed. You can have a total of 512, a maximum of 255 in each stat, and for every 4 in a stat you gain an extra point. So say a ratatta gives +1 speed EV, kill 4 and get an extra point in speed. once again you can't see this value, but there's even an item in the game that lets you double the rate you gain them at.
so basically, all an IV calculator does is show you a stat. you'd have to be high to think its the same as abusing the rng"
"Holy ****.
You still don't get it do you?
Listen, you're screwing with how the Random Number Generator works to make it not random. "Oh but we're just timing it." **** that, there's no difference. You wouldn't want me timing all my Thunders to be critical hits with 100% accuracy and added paralysis, would you?
If you want your perfect shiny 70 HP Grass Heatran go play Shoddy, or cheat. Don't pretend you aren't cheating."
Like I said, I've already refuted them all myself using similar logic to you guys, but I'm pretty sure you don't want to see all of that, it would take forever.
I apologize for that large mass of concentrated ignorance, by the way.
Ok, I think now might be a good time to ask...
What is RNG Abuse?
Lee Edit: Read here - http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52180
What is RNG Abuse?
Lee Edit: Read here - http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52180
To me, cheating is using external devices to modify pokemon. RNG isnt like that, because 1st, you arent really modifying anything, your just looking for something perfect to catch. 2nd, your not using any tools outside of timers and stopwatches, which obviously arent hacking devices.
Really, people could be RNG "abusing" with out really knowing it. What if someone was messing around with the coin flip and happiness applications, then suddenly saw a shiny pokemon with flawless IVs? That shouldn't be considered cheating.
So to me, RNG is NOT cheating, at all.
Really, people could be RNG "abusing" with out really knowing it. What if someone was messing around with the coin flip and happiness applications, then suddenly saw a shiny pokemon with flawless IVs? That shouldn't be considered cheating.
So to me, RNG is NOT cheating, at all.
This one seems to sum up the arguments against it, and all the arguments are flawed for about the same reason. The RNG is not truly random, and Gamefreak intended it to be that way. If they wanted a true RNG, they could have added one. eg, they could add some function of the current microphone or wifi antenna signal to the seed before using it to generate the next RNG. That would make it pretty much truly random, as you would never be able to pick out a pattern in that. But they didn't. Further, they actually made it easier to manipulate than before, as they could have easily used the RS method of changing the seed every frame. You cannot argue that Game Freak intended for it to be random. There were many ways it could have been made effectively random, but Game Freak still chose a large level of determinism over these perfectly viable options.
Also, as for the crit Thunders thing, all I can say is that I'd like to see him try. The battle RNG actually does update every frame, and considering variations in wifi lag, it would be completely impossible to be anywhere close to consistent with.
If a person is capable of cracking the code then I don't feel that its cheating to exploit it. It's not the same as an AR. I mean you could turn on a shiny+perfect IVs code and have the same result but that would be externally hacking the game while the RNG is just using collective knowledge to your advantage.
I know some people think it's cheap or cheating and so we can all agree to disagree. Have fun spending three weeks hatching eggs because you take a DS game that seriously. I got shit to do. :/
I know some people think it's cheap or cheating and so we can all agree to disagree. Have fun spending three weeks hatching eggs because you take a DS game that seriously. I got shit to do. :/
The people who are arguing that the RNG is cheating clearly don't understand the fact that the random number generator in Pokemon isn't actually random. That is a misnomer and is a glaring flaw in their "arguments". If the RNG was actually an RNG, it wouldn't even be possible for you to abuse it now, would it?
They are taking the word "random" too seriously when in actuality there is nothing random about it. You might as well call it the "easily predictable number generator". That is a much more accurate name and it doesnt seem like cheating at all when you call it that.
They are taking the word "random" too seriously when in actuality there is nothing random about it. You might as well call it the "easily predictable number generator". That is a much more accurate name and it doesnt seem like cheating at all when you call it that.
I think that some of them understand this. However, their argument is that the game developers want the RNG to appear random to the end user. Admit it, without doing anything out of the ordinarily like constantly and consistently resetting at the same time, you'd never know it was random. However, anyone with any knowledge of computers know that a computer is completely incapable of generating random numbers. Many of them (including Pokemon's) capitalize on seemingly random factors like human error (example: delay). The fact that we've taken the very predictable unpredictability of the number generator (note how I do not call it random) is what offends the sensibilities of these people.
Now my personal opinion: Fuck them. I don't particularly care about their rather uninformed opinions about something they don't understand completely. If they bitch about it, just don't do it to me, and there will be no problems. I have no problem if someone politely says "no RNG abusers. Please and thank you." Instead, it's "I don't RNG Abuse and I'm proud. Copy and paste this into your sig if you are too." And yes, I am throwing all of you with things like that under the bus.
Totally agree with you. Can't see the difference. Don't really care though.
Just like it's not possible to physically alter the game data to get flawless pokes without an AR, it's not possible to read the games hidden RNG and flip coins to get flawless pokes without RNG software.
Hope this isn't offensive to any invisible lurkers out there.
IIRC, there just isn't a true random number generator in the game. Yes, there's a complicated algorithm to make the numbers seem random, but there will always be some kind of pattern in the results (however subtle). The worse you could say about RNG abuse is that somebody is taking the game too seriously (no offense to the people who developed it, since I use it a lot and it owns :P).
On the other hand, the use of ARs and other cheating devices is totally different. For lack of a better analogy, the RNG abuse simply looks for a particular piece of the existing "fabric" in the game, persay, whereas the AR actually tweaks or even remakes the fabric itself. With RNG abuse, you can't make a level 85 Shiny Dialga appear in Twinleaf Town or something.
Lastly, the definition of a hack is something made by an external device. RNG abuse is aided by outside programs, but ultimately the true "maker" is the player him/herself. On the other hand, in the case of ARs the true maker is the AR.
To make a long story short, I believe RNG abuse is perfectly legit.
On the other hand, the use of ARs and other cheating devices is totally different. For lack of a better analogy, the RNG abuse simply looks for a particular piece of the existing "fabric" in the game, persay, whereas the AR actually tweaks or even remakes the fabric itself. With RNG abuse, you can't make a level 85 Shiny Dialga appear in Twinleaf Town or something.
Lastly, the definition of a hack is something made by an external device. RNG abuse is aided by outside programs, but ultimately the true "maker" is the player him/herself. On the other hand, in the case of ARs the true maker is the AR.
To make a long story short, I believe RNG abuse is perfectly legit.
In the end, arguments over "What's considered legitimate/OK?" go virtually nowhere since most people are too hard-headed to change their minds on the subject. Thus, trying to convince the opposing side otherwise (which is what it seems like TC is doing on board 402) is fruitless. As long as players are up front and honest about their views prior to battling/trading, there shouldn't be a problem anyhow. It's when assholes try deceiving the other person where it becomes an issue. Which coincidentally, RNG abuse happens to alleviate (little need to trade for other people's Pokemon, better chances in battle against AR users, etc.)
And of course, everyone on a competitive site is going to be okay with RNG abuse.
And of course, everyone on a competitive site is going to be okay with RNG abuse.
As always in these debates, there's a lot of "academic" elitism here, stemming from subjective principles grounded in the fact that some people don't want to pay for something.
If the point is to make the best possible pokemon available for battle, so that the battle outcome is decided on the basis of the best team design and execution rather than spurious "random" generated stats/pokemon, then the RNG-abuse is exactly equivalent to using an AR (for legal hacks). Ultimately, neither of these methods are 'cheating', because they're both simply facilitating easier access to competition-quality pokemon.
These debates are really quite like religious ones; people have their a priori positions and you cannot have a rational discussion; logic will get you nowhere. People just 'outlaw' the stuff they don't want to do themselves, so you have people who will campaign against AR because they don't want to pay the $15, and people who will complain because they don't want to do the number crunching for the RNG.
EDIT: Also, GameFreak did not 'intend' shit in regards to competitive battling with their game. All they care about is selling copies.
If the point is to make the best possible pokemon available for battle, so that the battle outcome is decided on the basis of the best team design and execution rather than spurious "random" generated stats/pokemon, then the RNG-abuse is exactly equivalent to using an AR (for legal hacks). Ultimately, neither of these methods are 'cheating', because they're both simply facilitating easier access to competition-quality pokemon.
These debates are really quite like religious ones; people have their a priori positions and you cannot have a rational discussion; logic will get you nowhere. People just 'outlaw' the stuff they don't want to do themselves, so you have people who will campaign against AR because they don't want to pay the $15, and people who will complain because they don't want to do the number crunching for the RNG.
EDIT: Also, GameFreak did not 'intend' shit in regards to competitive battling with their game. All they care about is selling copies.
That last point you made is really the biggest point of all as far as I'm concerned. To the people trying to again beat the "intention drum" with regard to anything in pokemon, I pose two very simple questions.
Do you think Nintendo/Gamefreak actually intended for us to save in front of most legendaries, catch them, check their Natures and/or stats, and turn the game off to do it over again as many times as we wanted if we didn't get what we wanted?
And do you think that Nintendo/Gamefreak intended for their game to potentially revolve completely around Spore and Sleep Powder and Double Team and Minimize for 6v6 battles?
Appealing to Nintendo and Gamefreak for arguments of intention is just about the biggest fallacy imaginable, and is the reason we're a competitive battling board and Board 402 is not. We intend to make this game as competitive as possible, and we cannot speak for the developers with regard to intent. Here's another example: do you think that Gamefreak's decision to allow two Shadow Tag pokemon to switch out of each other in DP indicates that they intended for it to be this way in Advance? Or more to the point, that they *intended* in Advance for two Shadow Tag Pokemon to be unable to switch out of each other, even though this would effectively have Wobbuffet vs. Wobbuffet matchups grind to an unresolvable Struggle if both Pokemon held Leftovers?
The answers to those ones are easy, but they open the door for others that should end any debate. Do you think that Gamefreak intended for there not to be a cap on Effort Values on Pokemon use in WiFi battles in DP, making cheating virtually undetectable as battlers could easily add 40 or so EVs to any defensive stat and make literally impossible damage outputs undetectable to the opponent's eye? And if not, what do you say to say about Gamefreak's failure to address this incredibly glaring problem in Platinum, when in the Pokemon Battle Revolution that came before it such an EV cap had been implemented?
Do you think Nintendo/Gamefreak actually intended for us to save in front of most legendaries, catch them, check their Natures and/or stats, and turn the game off to do it over again as many times as we wanted if we didn't get what we wanted?
And do you think that Nintendo/Gamefreak intended for their game to potentially revolve completely around Spore and Sleep Powder and Double Team and Minimize for 6v6 battles?
Appealing to Nintendo and Gamefreak for arguments of intention is just about the biggest fallacy imaginable, and is the reason we're a competitive battling board and Board 402 is not. We intend to make this game as competitive as possible, and we cannot speak for the developers with regard to intent. Here's another example: do you think that Gamefreak's decision to allow two Shadow Tag pokemon to switch out of each other in DP indicates that they intended for it to be this way in Advance? Or more to the point, that they *intended* in Advance for two Shadow Tag Pokemon to be unable to switch out of each other, even though this would effectively have Wobbuffet vs. Wobbuffet matchups grind to an unresolvable Struggle if both Pokemon held Leftovers?
The answers to those ones are easy, but they open the door for others that should end any debate. Do you think that Gamefreak intended for there not to be a cap on Effort Values on Pokemon use in WiFi battles in DP, making cheating virtually undetectable as battlers could easily add 40 or so EVs to any defensive stat and make literally impossible damage outputs undetectable to the opponent's eye? And if not, what do you say to say about Gamefreak's failure to address this incredibly glaring problem in Platinum, when in the Pokemon Battle Revolution that came before it such an EV cap had been implemented?
wow, this just proves that gamefaqs is a noob when it comes to pokemon. At least compared to smogon.
Once again. An external device. I'm not arguing that RNG is "bad". I think it's a great accomplishment and I don't see anything "wrong" with it, but just like using an AR it's impossible without some external device not sanctioned by Gamefreak or TPCI.
That was the original intent of my "poor" post that got deleted.
Alright, this is my reading on it.
Say I have a mother and a father (which I do). We have a piece of cake, and to eat it, I have to ask. If I ask my father, he is more likely to say no than my mother; however, to me it is still random as my father could say yes, and my mother could say no. Now, if I ask my mother instead of my father, am I cheating my siblings out of the cake? ...no, because if they had asked my mother, then they would likely have the cake now. I just jumped the gun and asked first. My siblings will be mad, but in the end of the day, it was I who got the cake.
SlightlyRNG using is the same basic concept. If you go ahead and use it, you still could lose of course, but you're chances are increased. Meanwhile, those who don't are not doing it for whatever reason, and are bitter because whatever they do can be bested: even though they could learn to use it as well, they won't because they now have the mentality that "Time consuming work is good, quick work is hacking."
In that case, the entire Smogon community stratigy pokedex, all movesets on serebii, bulbapedia, ect. are outside devices. That is not going against the game: It is making the game more fun, and axcesable!
Say I have a mother and a father (which I do). We have a piece of cake, and to eat it, I have to ask. If I ask my father, he is more likely to say no than my mother; however, to me it is still random as my father could say yes, and my mother could say no. Now, if I ask my mother instead of my father, am I cheating my siblings out of the cake? ...no, because if they had asked my mother, then they would likely have the cake now. I just jumped the gun and asked first. My siblings will be mad, but in the end of the day, it was I who got the cake.
SlightlyRNG using is the same basic concept. If you go ahead and use it, you still could lose of course, but you're chances are increased. Meanwhile, those who don't are not doing it for whatever reason, and are bitter because whatever they do can be bested: even though they could learn to use it as well, they won't because they now have the mentality that "Time consuming work is good, quick work is hacking."
In that case, the entire Smogon community stratigy pokedex, all movesets on serebii, bulbapedia, ect. are outside devices. That is not going against the game: It is making the game more fun, and axcesable!
An AR changes the games code. RNG abuse only uses things that are naturally written in the game.
An example:
your going through the forest. you take a shortcut to get out of the forest (RNG). Now using an AR would be like taking a bulldozer and plowing right through the middle of the forest. Its a big difference.
Still. Does using an IV calculator is the same as using an AR? Or even better, does using a damage calculator while battling is like using an AR?
My take on this:
An RNG calculator or whatever is something used to help pinpoint RNG or something (sorry but I'm not really sure the exact process of RNG abusing - I only know the general idea behind it because I regularly RNG abuse in Golden Sun to get stuff), and an AR is something that modifies game code. To say that they are the same is like saying apple is the same as orange, or 3 is the same as 16. Obviously they are not the same (both fruits and numbers respectively, but not the same). Simple logic.
The whole debate behind this is only whether they're similar enough to warrant banning/whatever, and sadly that is purely subjective. Someone can say that even soft resetting to get better pokes is unacceptable because they're not taking what the game gives them or you can't SR in real life or something (there are people who thinks like that, believe it or not), and someone else can say pokemon hacked to have 999 in every stat is legal because it's still a pokemon or something else (ok nobody really thinks that way but that's just an example). RNG abuse and AR-generated pokes happen to fall somewhere in the middle of those extremities, and thus people are arguing about it. The answer to the argument? Simple. Go play with people who shares the same viewpoint as you is all. If you don't like RNG abuse, don't play with people who use RNG-abused pokes and don't trade with them either. It's largely what people do with those who use AR-generated pokes, after all - don't play with them, don't trade with them, let them go their business and you go yours.
If you ask me? I don't even play Pokemon on a DS since I don't have a DS. I use shoddy for battling, and familiarize myself with the pokemon and moves with an emulator and the anime. If I had a DS to battle other people with, I'd likely just use AR generated pokes and make it clear to everyone I do battle with that I use them, plus never disgrace the wi-fi board with my "cheating" presence. Really, these arguments are pointless.
An RNG calculator or whatever is something used to help pinpoint RNG or something (sorry but I'm not really sure the exact process of RNG abusing - I only know the general idea behind it because I regularly RNG abuse in Golden Sun to get stuff), and an AR is something that modifies game code. To say that they are the same is like saying apple is the same as orange, or 3 is the same as 16. Obviously they are not the same (both fruits and numbers respectively, but not the same). Simple logic.
The whole debate behind this is only whether they're similar enough to warrant banning/whatever, and sadly that is purely subjective. Someone can say that even soft resetting to get better pokes is unacceptable because they're not taking what the game gives them or you can't SR in real life or something (there are people who thinks like that, believe it or not), and someone else can say pokemon hacked to have 999 in every stat is legal because it's still a pokemon or something else (ok nobody really thinks that way but that's just an example). RNG abuse and AR-generated pokes happen to fall somewhere in the middle of those extremities, and thus people are arguing about it. The answer to the argument? Simple. Go play with people who shares the same viewpoint as you is all. If you don't like RNG abuse, don't play with people who use RNG-abused pokes and don't trade with them either. It's largely what people do with those who use AR-generated pokes, after all - don't play with them, don't trade with them, let them go their business and you go yours.
If you ask me? I don't even play Pokemon on a DS since I don't have a DS. I use shoddy for battling, and familiarize myself with the pokemon and moves with an emulator and the anime. If I had a DS to battle other people with, I'd likely just use AR generated pokes and make it clear to everyone I do battle with that I use them, plus never disgrace the wi-fi board with my "cheating" presence. Really, these arguments are pointless.
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