you uh... don't know what foregoing means... do you?
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Pokemon Platinum - The definitive thread: Mach 3 (Competitive Discussion)
- Thread starter RBG
- Start date
You'd only use a hypothetical Superpower on a Poliwrath Drum set (or some strange Choice Set, I suppose). Otherwise Brick Break or Focus Punch is a more solid choice.
As far as being better, Superpower is a great deal stronger than Brick Break. In fact, it does around 60% more damage on the first use and 8% more on the second. If you use it a third time you're probably daft.
Why would you use Superpower on a Drum set... it lowers your Atk and Def...
Guys, with Stealth Rock on the field, CBTar ALREADY has a chance of a 2HKO on Hippowdon with Ice Punch, since the amount of HP regained from Leftovers (1/16) would be canceled out by the the amount of HP it lost from Stealth Rock on the switch (1/16) for that turn. That one turn would be enough that CBTar could 2HKO. Which means that it might be favorable in some situations to risk it. Say after getting hit on the switch and Leftovers recovering the HP it lost from Stealth Rock, Hippowdon has 46% of its life left. I'd personally risk it getting hit by the Superpower, 'cause you'd have at least taken out his Hippowdon.
I already explained this to you in the above post: Superpower has 60% more power on the first attack and 8% more on the second use. Drum sets thrive off maximum power, so you would use Superpower to ensure KOs.
As a matter of fact:
Belly Drum Brick Break adjusted BP:
450 (+6) [x4]
Belly Drum Superpower adjusted BP:
720 (+6) [x4]
630 (+5) [x3.5]
540 (+4) [x3]
450 (+3) [x2.5]
In other words, you could use Superpower 4 times before it would be equal to or lower in power as compared to Brick Break. On a Drum set, this probably means 4 KOs.
I grant it does unnecessarily weaken Waterfall also, but Waterfall should be able to take care of anything that resists/is immune to Superpower.
Drumwrath doesn't bank on its defense, hopefully you wiped out all their priority users or they sent them up early. On defensive Wrath sets, Brick Break is more reliable and doesn't conflict with Bulk Up, and Focus Punch has more raw power but needs a Sub or Sleep to work effectively.
Otherwise, Superpower on Wrath would greatly increase its prowess for offensive sets.
it does 42% - 50% :\
T-Tar switches in, takes 6% SR, 42% Ice Punch. Heals 6% from Lefovers, is at 58%. Only if you hit for maximum damage both times (will never happen) and have Stealth Rock on the field will it 2HKO.
edit: Checked. You've got a 1/32 chance to 2HKO max/max Hippowdon with Ice Punch with Stealth Rock on the field. Doesn't account for crits.
I disagree. If anything, I would use Superpower on the Impish defensive tank Poliwrath for a confirmed OHKO on even max HP Tyranitar despite having no Attack EVs, whereas Brick Break is a mear 2HKO.
At first glance I wouldn't've used Superpower on a drummer 'wrath, but if you say is true about it only becoming weaker after 4 uses, it's definitely worth considering.
Yeah, but I guess what I forgot to mention about how it's more likely to 2HKO now if Hippowdon's taken even a little bit of prior damage (that's why I said 46%, 'cause 46% is impossible without prior damage). Heck, if it's lost as little as 7% (30 points) of its HP on the turn it switches in, it's a 50% chance of a 2HKO. So if you know that Hippowdon has 93%-85% of its HP, you know that the odds are in your favor of a 2HKO, and anything under 85% your CBTar has nothing to worry about from Hippowdon, and that's IF it's Max Defense.
well, yeah. either that or you could use Aqua Tail, which would not only most often 2HKO without ANY prior damage but would also cover steels like Lucario and Magnezone as well. Ice Punch leaves you walled by steels not named Heatran, Jirachi, Bronzong or Metagross (assuming you'd want your most powerful attack, your cress killer and the yellow-belly destroyer).
Didn't think of that earlier. Just goes to show how much Wrath would really have liked Cross Chop for the last, oh, 3 gens.
The Caveat of Superpower on a Drum Wrath is that essentially it is your "Nuke option." Only use it if you know Waterfall (or Ice Punch if you're running the risky 3 move BellyWrath) won't KO the enemy before you. Superpower does 150% of the damage Waterfall does assuming both are neutral, but after one use, Waterfall and Ice Punch may not be able to score KO's on other things. Superpower on the other hand, will remain stronger than a +6 Waterfall for two more attacks and will equal a +6 Brick Break's power on the 4th use.
After that, Hopefully Poliwrath has done its job and you can put one last big dent in something (you will still have +2 Attack) before bidding 'Wrath adieu.
And again, until confirmed this is hypothetical, but given how many nonsensical things got Superpower, hopefully Wrath got some love.
It's not a counter if it dies coming in on everything else... >.>
Walled? With Ice Punch instead of Aqua Tail on your CBTar set, Jirachi, Bronzong, and Metagross are all going to get hit by Crunch harder than Aqua Tail (like you said), and although Stone Edge wont be as effective against Heatran as Aqua Tail, Heatran still doesn't like taking repeated CB Stone Edges. 2HKO without any defense EVs IIRC (don't take my word for it), and the best it can do against Tyranitar is Earth Power through Tyranitar's Sandstorm-boosted Special Defense (On top of EP being weaker than EQ and not having STAB on it, so it'd probably take less from it than Gliscor's Earthquake, which it'd have to take at least one of if you want to 2HKO since Gliscor is faster), or the rare HP Fighting, which also (again, don't take my word for it) fails to OHKO. Meanwhile, with Ice Punch, it stands an 100% chance of OHKOing Gliscor with Stealth Rock in play, with an 85% chance of OHKOing without (barring Sand Veil h4x, but then again, Sand Veil would still apply to Aqua Tail, if not moreso since Aqua Tail is less accurate), and still stands a good chance of 2HKOing Hippowdon if it has than 93% of its health while a 100% of 2HKO if it has 85% or less of its health (better than Gliscor having to have 70% for a OHKO with Aqua Tail).
Edit: Yeah, CB Stone Edge is going to 2HKO any Heatran that isn't Max Defense with Leftovers with or without Stealth Rock. Aqua Tail would still have a chance to not OHKO Heatran according to your Calculations even with Stealth Rock, and like said before, I'd much rather take a Heatran's Earth Power than a Gliscor's Earthquake.
Hippowdon'll do more to you with Earthquake than Gliscor will.
Hmm, the lack of Kingdra-Outrage love in this thread is disturbing me.
Think of it this way. Outrage means that its second move next to Waterfall on a Physical Sweeping set doesn't suffer a huge lack in power. This allows it to take on Grassers or other Waters on much better then Return/Dragon Pulse would. There is ofcourse always Draco Meteor, but thats mainly your panic button.
Then there's the viability of Lum Berry Kingdra. Paralysis had a tendecy to shut down his sweeps, Lum Berry fixes that. Should your opponent not try to Para him, it can also stop Outrage Confusion for you. With SRock, you still retain 2HKO's on a lot of stuff despite the loss of Outrage.
I admit it isn't as insta-powerful as Salamence, but its single weakness means a lot to the 'Dra.
Think of it this way. Outrage means that its second move next to Waterfall on a Physical Sweeping set doesn't suffer a huge lack in power. This allows it to take on Grassers or other Waters on much better then Return/Dragon Pulse would. There is ofcourse always Draco Meteor, but thats mainly your panic button.
Then there's the viability of Lum Berry Kingdra. Paralysis had a tendecy to shut down his sweeps, Lum Berry fixes that. Should your opponent not try to Para him, it can also stop Outrage Confusion for you. With SRock, you still retain 2HKO's on a lot of stuff despite the loss of Outrage.
I admit it isn't as insta-powerful as Salamence, but its single weakness means a lot to the 'Dra.
Oops, there is Stealth Rock on the field. Now guess who isn't a counter anymore?
Oops, Heracross has Choice Scarf. Now guess who isn't a counter anymore?
Bingo.
Oops, Heracross has Choice Scarf. Now guess who isn't a counter anymore?
Bingo.
My bad for the Steel part.
With HIppowdon, though, with all the stuff that's being thrown out, I don't think it'd be that hard to lower its HP by a mere 7%-15% for a good chance at a 2HKO while anything past that is a guaranteed 2HKO.
Still, EVERY steel not named Heatran, Jirachi, Metagross, or Bronzong?
Legitimate threats:
vs. Lucario: Yes, Aqua Tail is definitely superior. Probably wont risk switching in, though, until it knows its moveset.
vs. Registeel: Yes, Aqua Tail is Superior. And Registeel might be seeing more use now.
vs. Empoleon: Neither Stone Edge nor Aqua Tail is going to matter since SE is the best move to use against it anyway if you're missing EQ.
vs. Dialga: Uber.
Maybe?:
Magnezone: Yes, Aqua Tail is superior, but like you said, what's it gonna do?
Mawhile: Yes, Aqua Tail is Superior. Who uses Mawile in standards though? Not to mention does it really threaten Tyranitar?
vs. Aggron and Bastiodon: Yes, Aqua Tail is definitely superior. Again though, who uses these in standards?
vs. Steelix, yes Aqua Tail is Superior. Again, the frequency issue.
vs. Probopass: Frequency issue?
No:
Skarmory, Forretress, Scizor, Wormadam: Stone Edge > Aqua Tail or Ice Punch.
I guess my point is that you're right in saying Aqua Tail is a good move on Tyranitar, but my point is that Ice Punch is still also still a good choice on Tyranitar.
Draggy is still bulkier and has Superpower over Brick Break. It can also support.
Lol no.
While Ice Punch has it's advantages in that it'll do enough to Gliscor to prevent it doing any damage to you and will do constant damage to Tangrowth, Aqua Tail outclasses it really. Yes, Hippowdon will likely take other damage, but the advantage of it not needing to combined with the hit list you just compiled makes it better IMO.
What you haven't considered is what you can't do without Aqua Tail. You'll be absolute Lucario Swords Dance bait, Magnezone Substitute bait, etc. The added coverage from Aqua Tail in general is a bonus apart from how it damages the bulky grounds.
There's also the (albeit almost moot) possibility of Gliscor being in on Tyranitar 1 on 1 and using Roost before Tyranitar Ice Punches. Aqua Tail would obviously out-damage in that situation.
What you haven't considered is what you can't do without Aqua Tail. You'll be absolute Lucario Swords Dance bait, Magnezone Substitute bait, etc. The added coverage from Aqua Tail in general is a bonus apart from how it damages the bulky grounds.
There's also the (albeit almost moot) possibility of Gliscor being in on Tyranitar 1 on 1 and using Roost before Tyranitar Ice Punches. Aqua Tail would obviously out-damage in that situation.
SR does sort of slow it down, plus it can't abuse T-Wave immunity or Sand Veil.
It can switch in on EQs, but you must make sure the opponent is choiced.
B-b-b-b-but Ambipom now gets Close Combat!