Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

[Punchshroom]

Sorry for the double post, but since this is a different topic entirely, I feel like this warrants separate attention.

With discussing Banette so much, I realized that Shuppet and Duskull do not have separate rankings based on versions (ex: R Duskull, SE Shuppet), even though they have the largest disparity in version rarity in the whole game. If Duskull and Shuppet are not ranked separately, I don't really see the need to penalize the rarer variant of each version, and should just combine them into one entry respectively, preferably by raising the lower one to match the higher one:

Rise Grimer (RE) to match Grimer (S)'s D Rank
Rise Koffing (S) to match Koffing (RE)'s D Rank
Rise Plusle (RE) to match Plusle (S)'s E Rank
Rise Minun (S) to match Minun (RE)'s E Rank

On a semi-related note, why exactly is Zigzagoon (E) a rank behind Zigzagoon (RS)? I am aware that Zigzagoon is far more widespread in RS than Emerald, but none of the pre-Surf Zigzagoons are anywhere close to evolution (highest level being only 14, pretty far for a mon you don't intend to grind). The reason you want Linoone instead of settling with Zigzagoon is so that it can learn Strength, but unless RS makes a conscious effort to train up a Zigzagoon, they aren't that much more likely to acquire a Linoone before Emerald does by simply Surfing to Route 118 for one, so in terms of ease of HM slave access, Emerald is not really any worse off since they can just use early Zigzagoon in the meantime and go for Route 118 Linoone by the time they want to upgrade their HM slave. The only instance I can remember that you'd want an earlier Strength for is to reach the Toxic TM in Fiery Path.

Is it battling ability? While level 9 Headbutt is certainly one of the stronger attacks one can have that early, Zigzagoon is deadweight for 3 whole gyms, and hardly useful for the remaining pre-Surf gyms outside of Sand-Attacking Norman. By the time Zigzagoon evolves, Secret Power should be available shortly after, so it quickly loses the power advantage against route trainers as well.

Edit: Merritt yeah no need to explain: 10% chance for Ultra Ball/Full Restore/Nugget/Rare Candy even before Gym 1 is laughably busted.

 

[Merritt]

Ruby and Sapphire have a broken Pickup compared to Emerald. I’ll go into more detail if you insist, but I’d suggest looking up the pickup mechanics for RS vs E.

 

[sumwun]

Sorry for the double post, but since this is a different topic entirely, I feel like this warrants separate attention.

With discussing Banette so much, I realized that Shuppet and Duskull do not have separate rankings based on versions (ex: R Duskull, SE Shuppet), even though they have the largest disparity in version rarity in the whole game. If Duskull and Shuppet are not ranked separately, I don't really see the need to penalize the rarer variant of each version, and should just combine them into one entry respectively, preferably by raising the lower one to match the higher one:

Rise Grimer (RE) to match Grimer (S)'s D Rank
Rise Koffing (S) to match Koffing (RE)'s D Rank
Rise Plusle (RE) to match Plusle (S)'s E Rank
Rise Minun (S) to match Minun (RE)'s E Rank

Shuppet and Duskull are 13% at the rarest. Sure, it's less common than 100%, but I think 13% Pokemon usually take less than 5 minutes to find and catch, and I generally consider it a negligible amount of sidetracking. Stuff like RE Grimer and S Koffing have 2% encounter chances, which is about 7 times more rare than SE Shuppet and R Duskull. When a Pokemon takes on average 50 encounters to find, I find it noticeably annoying.

On a semi-related note, why exactly is Zigzagoon (E) a rank behind Zigzagoon (RS)?

Emerald nerfed pickup so that Zigzagoon needs to be higher leveled in order to pick up good items. In RS, any Zigzagoon can start picking up nuggets and rare candies from the moment you catch it on Route 103.

On my semi-related note...

Have you? It's awfully convenient of you to cherrypick the arguments to make it seem like I cannot be convinced, when there is an incidence of me being swayed literally right above your post, and which you've also included into your own.

Didn't one of you used to think Shroomish was bad, and the other used to think Baltoy was bad? Stop accusing each other of being stubborn or cherrypicking or whatever and instead talk about Pokemon like you're supposed to in this forum.

On an even less related note...

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Briefly, continuing to support (RE) Grimer to come up to D with the (S) version, as previously stated it's more than strong enough to invalidate the time to acquire it, and as previously shown, it is not average 50 encounters as sumwun suggests, but mathematically an average of 34 encounters which, while still somewhat tedious, is much more reasonable.

And yes for the record I've changed my opinion or stopped arguing positions numerous times in the face of other argumentation or opposition, Shroomish, C Grimer, and A Chinchou come to mind off the top of my head.

P.s. also Merritt.make.absol B already smh

 

[sumwun]

as previously shown, it is not average 50 encounters as sumwun suggests, but mathematically an average of 34 encounters which, while still somewhat tedious, is much more reasonable.

50% of people can find at least 1 Grimer in 34 encounters. That's different from averages. Because I couldn't think of a good way to explain the difference, I wrote some Java that simulates 50 people each encountering Pokemon until they find 1 Grimer.

code

        int[] encountersPerPlayer = new int[50];
        int max = 0;
        
        for(int i = 0; i < encountersPerPlayer.length; i ++) {
            encountersPerPlayer[i] = 1;
            
            while(Math.random() * 50 > 1) {
                encountersPerPlayer[i] ++;
            }
            
            if(encountersPerPlayer[i] > max) {
                max = encountersPerPlayer[i];
            }
        }
        
        //System.out.println(max);
        int[] encountersFrequencies = new int[max + 1];
        
        for(int i = 0; i < encountersPerPlayer.length; i ++) {
            encountersFrequencies[encountersPerPlayer[i]] ++;
        }
        
        for(int i = 0; i <= max; i ++) {
            if(encountersFrequencies[i] > 0) {
                System.out.println(i + ": " + encountersFrequencies[i]);
            }
        }

raw results

1: 2
2: 2
3: 2
5: 1
6: 1
7: 2
8: 1
12: 2
13: 1
15: 1
16: 2
17: 1
19: 1
27: 1
28: 1
29: 1
31: 1
32: 1
34: 1
35: 1
37: 1
38: 2
41: 1
44: 1
62: 1
67: 1
70: 1
72: 1
78: 1
81: 1
91: 1
108: 1
110: 1
117: 1
120: 1
124: 1
130: 1
151: 1
183: 1
188: 1
220: 1
238: 1
260: 1

graph I drew

Each "-" represents 8 encounters.
Each "." represents 1 person who found a Grimer within that many encounters.

.
.
.
.
.
..
.. ..
.. ..
.. ..   .
......  .    ..
...... ..... .... .   ..   . .  .
---------------------------------

As you can see from the graph, about half the people found it within 34 encounters, but the worst took up to 260 encounters. The outliers are what raise the average up to 50. When you risk being one of those outliers, are you really catching a D tier Pokemon?

 

[willempju]

50% of people can find at least 1 Grimer in 34 encounters. That's different from averages. Because I couldn't think of a good way to explain the difference, I wrote some Java that simulates 50 people each encountering Pokemon until they find 1 Grimer.

code

        int[] encountersPerPlayer = new int[50];
        int max = 0;
       
        for(int i = 0; i < encountersPerPlayer.length; i ++) {
            encountersPerPlayer[i] = 1;
           
            while(Math.random() * 50 > 1) {
                encountersPerPlayer[i] ++;
            }
           
            if(encountersPerPlayer[i] > max) {
                max = encountersPerPlayer[i];
            }
        }
       
        //System.out.println(max);
        int[] encountersFrequencies = new int[max + 1];
       
        for(int i = 0; i < encountersPerPlayer.length; i ++) {
            encountersFrequencies[encountersPerPlayer[i]] ++;
        }
       
        for(int i = 0; i <= max; i ++) {
            if(encountersFrequencies[i] > 0) {
                System.out.println(i + ": " + encountersFrequencies[i]);
            }
        }

raw results

1: 2
2: 2
3: 2
5: 1
6: 1
7: 2
8: 1
12: 2
13: 1
15: 1
16: 2
17: 1
19: 1
27: 1
28: 1
29: 1
31: 1
32: 1
34: 1
35: 1
37: 1
38: 2
41: 1
44: 1
62: 1
67: 1
70: 1
72: 1
78: 1
81: 1
91: 1
108: 1
110: 1
117: 1
120: 1
124: 1
130: 1
151: 1
183: 1
188: 1
220: 1
238: 1
260: 1

graph I drew

Each "-" represents 8 encounters.
Each "." represents 1 person who found a Grimer within that many encounters.

.
.
.
.
.
..
.. ..
.. ..
.. ..   .
......  .    ..
...... ..... .... .   ..   . .  .
---------------------------------

As you can see from the graph, about half the people found it within 34 encounters, but the worst took up to 260 encounters. The outliers are what raise the average up to 50. When you risk being one of those outliers, are you really catching a D tier Pokemon?

The probability distribution you are describing is a geometric distribution with the succes probabilty of p=0.02. As such, the expected number of failures before the first succes is (1-p)/p=49. So indeed sumwun is right, on average it takes 50 tries to find a Grimer.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Fair enough, my misinterpretation of the statistical meaning.

Regardless, I had been operating under the correct impression of the 50% chance to find one within the first 34, and I don't think the negative statistical outliers are relevant enough to impact it's ranking. It's an inherent variance in encounter curves.

As an example from my own run, it took approximately the same amount of encounters for me to find a Taillow (10%) as it did Grimer, sometimes you just get unlucky, but more often than not you don't.

 

[sumwun]

Lombre (SE) to C
Lombre is relatively easy to catch, can learn any 4 of the 5 required HMs (and flash), and requires no evolution to learn them. It's found on Route 114, which is not the earliest, but still earlier than both Tropius and surf. Is Lombre a whole tier below Tropius just because it can't learn fly?

 

[Merritt]

Minor update. As a side note, it shouldn't need to be said but do not make posts devoid of any kind of content. Thank you.

Minun, Plusle, Koffing, and Grimer have been merged between versions to match their higher ranked version. A mention of their encounter rate issue will be noted in the write up.

Rises:
Absol rises from C tier to B tier

Drops:
Phanpy drops from D tier to E tier
Rhyhorn drops from E tier to F tier

 

[sumwun]

What happened to these suggestions? Nobody argued against any of these, so I thought everyone was okay with seeing them move.

Eh. Great where it could shine, but it comes too late. However I think the great matchups and Boltbeam can make up for it, so i nominate Regice for D Tier.

It starts off with decent enough stats and power, but Seviper starts to lag behind pretty soon into the mid-lategame thanks to being cursed with low bulk AND speed. It also doesn't have the pivotal movepool that Swalot has to give it an explosive edge, making its lategame matchups pretty much flops. Honestly I am inclined to see Seviper drop from D to E, what with it doing only decent at best and being fodder at worst in most matchups.

Basically, Cacnea/Cacturne faces horrendous Speed and bulk issues throughout the entire game, and its power only becomes not completely trash once it finally evolves and gets its best dual STABs, which aren't even spectacular enough in power to remotely patch up its persisting problems. Honestly the main reason I don't just outright nom this for F tier is because it happens to have some decent lategame matchups by virtue of its typing, though even that can be undermined due to the existence of Ice Beaming Water-types which can exploit Cacturne's poor bulk and Speed to 1v1 it regardless. This is just a sad mon.

C to B
"Discount Swampert" is still pretty damn great, especially when it starts off with Surf, EQ, and the Ice Beam TM the moment you get it, though it needs to be Good Rodded at its highest level of 30. Barboach has pretty much no losing matchups outside of the super telegraphed Grass-type attack (Sidney's Shiftry is not one of these btw), and nearly any boss that risks overpowering Whiscash can be stopped by Amnesia. It's not particularly powerful but the power of its attacks more than make up for this, and from my experiences Whicash makes for an even better Amnesia user than Swalot in all the battles that matter. Unfortunately it misses out on Wattson and Flannery, but it's still plenty good for the remaining matchups in the game.

Lombre (SE) to C
Lombre is relatively easy to catch, can learn any 4 of the 5 required HMs (and flash), and requires no evolution to learn them. It's found on Route 114, which is not the earliest, but still earlier than both Tropius and surf. Is Lombre a whole tier below Tropius just because it can't learn fly?

 

[Merritt]

People not arguing against something does not mean "everybody's ok" with them. For most of them I'd want to see more discussion. Especially on Cacnea who's moved from E to D previously.

Regice to D is rejected outright however. Its low speed and absurdly late availability hold it back significantly - in fact it's despite its horrific availability (keep in mind that it's not just timing but also actually unlocking the damn thing) that its good traits make it E rank unlike its rock and steel brethren.

For Lombre, Tropius can at least vaguely contribute offensively while Lombre is largely dead weight. Fly is also kind of a big thing for your HM slave so yes. Fly.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Cacnea is the definition of a borderline mon depending on your experience with it. I'd reckon it probably should end up in E given its training and movepool limitations.

Also don't want to see Barboach moved until further testing, on paper it seems like a very overrated mon and while I grudgingly see enough positives in its typing and movepool I'm very skeptical of it being near B.

Lombre and Ludicolo are bad. HM slaving really shouldn't be that significant a factor in a mons ranking, a good bonus rather than a self-justifying trait. D is more than fine for them.

Seviper I always want to test but Punchshroom's summary is what I'd expect from it in theory.

 

[Punchshroom]

Just gonna parrot some of my prior arguments a bit more here:

Barboach is a very respectable Water-type, and its only real ask is that it be Good Rodded at its max wild level of 30 so that it can learn Earthquake and evolve ASAP with minimal/zero babying. Compared to the other B Rank Water-types, what Whiscash lacks in raw Speed and power (though 95 & 100 BP dual STABs are by no means weak), it makes up for it by basically not dying ever. Like I mentioned before, Whiscash plays very similarly to a watered-down Swampert, but has the added gimmick of Amnesia for even greater resilience and sweeping potential in the lategame fights.

I don't really understand what the aversion to rising Pikachu is. We've already established that the short trip from Route 120 to Safari Zone then back to Fortree is basically no big deal, so it gets to contribute against Winona as much as the other mid-game Electrics do. It is by far the least costly among the Electrics to invest in since it requires only the Thunderstone instead of the Thunderbolt TM, as well as having the most expansive movepool of all of them, having Thunder Wave (mid-game Electrike/Manectric and Voltorb don't have this; but this is only available on lv 25 Pikachu), Light Screen (Manectric lacks this), as well as Brick Break to give Raichu the smoothest Glacia matchup. If it were up to me I'd go so far as to rank Pikachu alongside Electrike, but at the very least I'd like to see Pikachu rise up to C where Voltorb also resides (and I do think Raichu slightly outperforms Electrode for the most part).

I already said my piece on Cacnea, but I don't know how anyone can even defend this. I'd like to see them try though.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New noms:

Golduck's access to Calm Mind elevates its performance greatly, and it shouldn't be ranked below the other B Ranked Water-types in the first place imo. Already I perceive Golduck as being a better Pokemon than say, Tentacruel, since Golduck can get artificial special bulk while also lacking the annoying lategame weaknesses that Poison-type carries. The argument that Psyduck is only obtainable later is weak since Tentacool and Psyduck's locations literally mirror that of Electrike/Voltorb vs Pikachu, and I've already stated my stance on how utterly irrelevant the backtracking ends up mattering on the run.

Welp, I've finally decided that Girafarig does indeed have what it takes to be worthy of C Rank. It's immediately able to put in work with Thunderbolt against Winona & later against Water bosses, it's a Psychic-type that dunks over Phoebe instead of vice-versa, and it even have a few movepool quirks such as Agility or Baton Pass which work marvelously alongside Calm Mind and can help to overcome level disadvantages in boss fights.

 

[sumwun]

Okay, I understand that Manectric is better than Raichu because Manectric's stats really are higher. But the Raichu versus Electrode debate seems to be mostly about sidetracking, so I thought maybe I should post more about that. After setting foot on Route 120, people usually do 1 of 2 things.

Get the Devon scope, go back to Fortree City, defeat Winona, and somehow run or bike to Mt. Pyre
Get the Devon scope, continue to Lilycove City, run or bike back to Fortree, defeat Winona, fly to Lilycove, and run or bike to Mt. Pyre

And I guess the problem with Raichu is that it encourages players to do the second thing, which takes slightly longer because players have to bike from Lilycove City to the bridge with the Kecleon. (traversing Route 120, Route 121, and Lilycove City is required either way) To find out exactly how much longer, I timed myself biking from Lilycove's Pokemon center to the bridge and got 1 minute 31 seconds. Is that enough to put Raichu and Electrode in different tiers?

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Since it's Christmas I thought I would develop a bit clearer a picture of the things I personally value when evaluating a mons performance starting with the basic tenet that in the aggregate, most mons are going to perform along a fairly similar curve and most situations are going to be generally approached similarly in similar situations. The majority of the game can and should be decided most efficiently (and most fun) via damage racing based on power and typing available, set up is only valuable if it is not tedious and trivializes and otherwise challenging fight - setting up a Swords Dance and taking 6 moves to KO a team of 5 when coverage alone would have KOed the team in 7 moves does not do credit to the utility of the set up move UNLESS said opponent is a major boss fight. Thus, as follows:

Specific matchups where notable performance is valued
- Performance immediately on acquisition: the time delay to becoming self-sustainable is incredibly valuable and a large part of why I believe Breloom to be S-rank
- Wattson's Manectric/Magneton: at this point in the game, the level jump and typing change makes these two particularly dangerous threats and the ability to defeat them becomes notable, the remainder of the gym is trivial
- Flannery's Torkoal: power/bulk spike is notable for this point in the game, Camerupt is trivial
- Norman's Slakings: obvious
- Tate and Liza: biggest challenge in the game
- Juan's Kingdra: gets a minor consideration only because it's tough to take out, if you can take it's attacks while fighting the war of attrition or can KO it outright that carries value, but it's otherwise dealt with in the same way as the rest of his gym
- Late-game grind performance: the ability to carry oneself to the level 46-48 range while preparing for the Elite 4 is a significant input on time and effort spent while getting ready to take on the league
- Glacia's Walrein: is a threat
- Drake as a whole
- Champion as a whole

Notable matchups NOT given excess consideration
- Sidney: lol
- Phoebe: more annoying than dangerous, any set of attackers will fight in a similar way, spamming stabs in a war of attrition, only legitimate threat is Dusclops 2 but that can never solo a reasonable team
- Winona: only notable for DD Altaria and so tanking or OHKOing that gets minor consideration
- Everything else

Everything else in the game is given roughly equal credit and performance as a whole can be judged against other mons similarly.

have a couple more lines to say but gotta rush to work owell bye

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

The point of all that is not to say that the rest of the game is trivial per se, but that those are the only challenges with specific difficulty or requiring specific performance where you cannot get comparable performance across the board, and so specific positive performance becomes a specific asset to that mons ranking. Everything else in the game operates at a base line of comparison that allows you to say X was good, Y was great, Z was okay, and those specific leverage points to boost or depress a ranking considered against the baseline.

 

[Infernape2018]

Name: Nincada(Shedinja)
Availability: Evolve Nincada with extra slot in party at Lvl 20. Easy to grab, difficult to train
Stats: The only notable stat it has is 90 Attack. Otherwise Shedinja is the only evolved Pokémon that has a lower base stat total than its pre evolution.
Typing: Basically only 2 good immunites and a bucket of weaknesses. Remidied by Wonder Guard by having the most immunities in the game, but it doesn't help that it dies in 1 Hit
Movepool: Horrible. STAB SB and Dig just about the the only decent moves it gets, which give it a bad time against most major battles.
Major Battles:
Rival 2: Walls Shroomish and Marshtomp.
Wattson: Cannot fight Voltorb(Rollout) or Magneton(Supersonic), but can wall Manectric.
Maxie/Arcie and Team Aqua/Magma in general: wait no!
Flannery: da fuk are you doing?
Norman: DA FUK ARE YOU DOING?
Rival 3: Walls Lombre and Marshtomp(seeing a trend here)
Winnona: OH GOD NO PLEASE.
Rival 4: Walls Tropius and Marshtomp :<(
Maxie(E): just stop
Courtney/Matt: Mightyena has no offensive moves, so you can beat it.
Tate and Liza: Lunatone, but good luck kepping it alive to beat it when everything else can kill you.
Maxie/Archie: ugh no
Groudon(R): WHAT ARE YOU DOING
Kyogre(S): anticlimatic, am i right? :]
Rayquaza(E): NO. DON'T. STOP. PLEASE.
Wallace/Juan: if you can beat luvdisc, he can solo this gym.
Wally: No to Altaria, Delcatty(lol) and Magneton.
Sidney: HOW DO YOU FAIL SOMETHING THIS EASY
Phoebe: STOP SUCKING SHEDINJA
Glacia: Hail.
Drake: How about NO?
Steven(theorymon though): Metagross, more like metaCANNOT TOUCH ME, BITCH! not to anyone else though.
Wallace: Barring passive damage from Ludicolo and Tentacruel, nothing can directly kill you. However, Shedinja struggles to kill them barring Toxic-stall.
Additional Comments: It takes forever to get to, has an awful movepool and stats, barely helps in any matchups and even when a matchup is good, it can only win through toxic-stall on the later half of the game. Shedinja for F Tier

Edit: Glacia's Warien can actually be stalled if Hail is gone. wooooooooooo

 

[innisfree]

Why is Zigzagoon in B tier for RS but C tier for Emerald?

 

[Merritt]

Why is Zigzagoon in B tier for RS but C tier for Emerald?

As stated earlier on this page, Ruby and Sapphire have a broken Pickup compared to Emerald. I’ll go into more detail if you insist, but I’d suggest looking up the pickup mechanics for RS vs E.

 

[innisfree]

As stated earlier on this page, Ruby and Sapphire have a broken Pickup compared to Emerald. I’ll go into more detail if you insist, but I’d suggest looking up the pickup mechanics for RS vs E.

Alright thanks, that makes sense. I recently played through Ruby and was surprised that my Zigzagoons kept finding Rare Candies and Full Restores early in the game.

 

[sumwun]

Why is Whismur ranked so much lower here than it is in ORAS? It didn't get a mega evolution (unlike Mawile) or a regular evolution (unlike Magnemite), its location/availability didn't change much (unlike Lati@s), it didn't benefit from the physical/special split (unlike Crawdaunt), and it didn't get a big movepool overhaul (unlike Beautifly).

 

[Merritt]

The ORAS tier list plays no part in how Pokemon are ranked in RSE. I would advise against cross comparisons.

e: also it's a bold statement to say that whismur did not get an improvement in Gen 6, as exploud got boomburst as well as a (minor) SpDef buff

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

Why is Whismur ranked so much lower here than it is in ORAS? It didn't get a mega evolution (unlike Mawile) or a regular evolution (unlike Magnemite), its location/availability didn't change much (unlike Lati@s), it didn't benefit from the physical/special split (unlike Crawdaunt), and it didn't get a big movepool overhaul (unlike Beautifly).

Honestly I don’t know much about how Whismur plays but from a brief look at its movepool changes I’d guess that it’s partly because Echoed Voice is a much better starting attack for it than 50 BP lock-yourself-in Uproar.

Miscellaneous improvements like Bulldoze access pre-Wattson and the buffs Merritt mentioned help out as well.

 

[sumwun]

Are Magikarp, Goldeen, and Tentacool better if the player gets them early with the old rod or if the player gets them high-leveled with a good rod?

 

[Merritt]

Are Magikarp, Goldeen, and Tentacool better if the player gets them early with the old rod or if the player gets them high-leveled with a good rod?

Magikarp is 100% better with old rod, it's not hard to get it to 20 using the exp share relatively quickly and the first important move for it (Strength) is pretty early. Tentacool I'm usually inclined to say Old Rod because it's capable of doing rather well against Flannery if it gets enough levels despite its poor early period. Obviously if used primarily for HM slave team with Tropius purposes it should be obtained early.

Goldeen's kind of trash either way, so I can't really say which is better.