Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

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what do you understand under "a sensible test"?
This question... Doesn't make a lot of sense. I literally can't understand what information you want out of this.

But I digress.

Regarding Lanturn, Lv. 42 is a much more sensible level for Juan since it's close to most of its team, regardless of your choice of how to get to said level and the fact that Swampert is still 10 levels ahead because of your non-standard methods. So let's evaluate its performance.

I take you used Rain Dance + Thunder since you mentioned Rain on Whiscash.

These are fairly good numbers. OHKOs on a fair amount of mons, a reliable damage output against one of the most cheesy bosses in the game, but hits a speedbump against Whiscash, who does put you in a pretty bad mismatch.

Granted, there is a lot of effort involved to get Chinchou up to this level regardless and a large amount of TMs for it to achieve those results, but there *is* a payoff.

Sounds like a C-Tier mon to me. B is not really accurate because of the late availability and Slow Exp. Group making it hard for Chinchou to catch up.

Honestly Xator, I think you're missing the point with your testing methods. This is essentially a tier list for casual runs.

Not absolute scrubs like Little Timmy and his overleveled Starter, but people who know at least the basics.

The idea is that the old Pokemon have so much exp because they weren't sharing it with the new Pokemon so it deserves all the exp for a while to catch up.
It's less "deserves" and more "requires" or there's no catching up to begin with. This by itself would create distortions (Like Xator facing Juan with a Lv. 32 Lanturn when in reality no one in their right mind would do so.) but to make things more convoluted, when was the last time you even heard of someone splitting exp by arbitrary numbers instead of per level-up?

It's a concept so unnatural that it borders on uncanny valley. Again, this is a tier list for casual runs. There's only so much thinking one does on a casual run, these games aren't even hard for the most part, and people are pulling out advanced analytics and IV spreads while possibly looking like this:

images (91).jpeg


It may be theoretically fair, but if I have a Lv. 32 Lanturn on my team when I'm about to face Juan, it's either grind time or bench time.
There's absolutely no point in challenging him almost 15 levels behind his ace. Of course the result will be bad.

So in reality, all this does is to prevent the mon from actually having a chance to be tested.
 
It's less "deserves" and more "requires" or there's no catching up to begin with. This by itself would create distortions (Like Xator facing Juan with a Lv. 32 Lanturn when in reality no one in their right mind would do so.) but to make things more convoluted, when was the last time you even heard of someone splitting exp by arbitrary numbers instead of per level-up?

It's a concept so unnatural that it borders on uncanny valley. Again, this is a tier list for casual runs. There's only so much thinking one does on a casual run, these games aren't even hard for the most part, and people are pulling out advanced analytics and IV spreads while possibly looking like this:

View attachment 314159

It may be theoretically fair, but if I have a Lv. 32 Lanturn on my team when I'm about to face Juan, it's either grind time or bench time.
There's absolutely no point in challenging him almost 15 levels behind his ace. Of course the result will be bad.

So in reality, all this does is to prevent the mon from actually having a chance to be tested.
When I say Lanturn deserves 100k exp more than Swampert what I mean is it's fair for tiering to stop using Swampert and grind Lanturn to catch up. I'm talking about exp instead of levels because you need less exp for lower levels. I agree with keeping Pokemon around the same level which will give Lantern about how much exp it deserves, I'm just talking in terms of exp instead of levels because if I said it's fair to give the same amount of levels to Laneturn it would end up 25 levels higher than Swampert. I didn't mean give it exactly 100k exp.
 
This question... Doesn't make a lot of sense. I literally can't understand what information you want out of this.

But I digress.

Regarding Lanturn, Lv. 42 is a much more sensible level for Juan since it's close to most of its team, regardless of your choice of how to get to said level and the fact that Swampert is still 10 levels ahead because of your non-standard methods. So let's evaluate its performance.

I take you used Rain Dance + Thunder since you mentioned Rain on Whiscash.

These are fairly good numbers. OHKOs on a fair amount of mons, a reliable damage output against one of the most cheesy bosses in the game, but hits a speedbump against Whiscash, who does put you in a pretty bad mismatch.

Granted, there is a lot of effort involved to get Chinchou up to this level regardless and a large amount of TMs for it to achieve those results, but there *is* a payoff.

Sounds like a C-Tier mon to me. B is not really accurate because of the late availability and Slow Exp. Group making it hard for Chinchou to catch up.

Honestly Xator, I think you're missing the point with your testing methods. This is essentially a tier list for casual runs.

Not absolute scrubs like Little Timmy and his overleveled Starter, but people who know at least the basics.


It's less "deserves" and more "requires" or there's no catching up to begin with. This by itself would create distortions (Like Xator facing Juan with a Lv. 32 Lanturn when in reality no one in their right mind would do so.) but to make things more convoluted, when was the last time you even heard of someone splitting exp by arbitrary numbers instead of per level-up?

It's a concept so unnatural that it borders on uncanny valley. Again, this is a tier list for casual runs. There's only so much thinking one does on a casual run, these games aren't even hard for the most part, and people are pulling out advanced analytics and IV spreads while possibly looking like this:

View attachment 314159

It may be theoretically fair, but if I have a Lv. 32 Lanturn on my team when I'm about to face Juan, it's either grind time or bench time.
There's absolutely no point in challenging him almost 15 levels behind his ace. Of course the result will be bad.

So in reality, all this does is to prevent the mon from actually having a chance to be tested.
Pardon my language if I expressed myself wrongly in my question. English is not even my third language. You used the concept "sensible test" in your previous post, and I was demanding an explanation of what you meant by this, because I sincerely wanted to believe you aren't saying this because I'm saying things you don't like.

I think I stated before in this thread that I don't expect players to go through the game while adjusting their experience allocation the way I am currently doing in my playthrough. It's not what I do in my casual playthroughs because it's very unnatural to me to use more than one Pokémon in general when I play these games and just plow through without bothering with optional trainers, since the process of spending time grinding is largely very unappealing in JRPGs to me (and is a turn-off for many non-enthusiasts of the genre). However, I approach testing like this (and this playstyle is exclusively for testing) because to me it represents the Pokémon better. The original post states that the aims of this list are to get through the game as effortlessly as possible. If people just want to get through the game, how would suggesting them a Pokémon that needs to be grinded for ten levels is benefitial to that goal? Pokémon don't exist in a vacuum to assume that a Pokémon that requires the player to focus on it to be decent is equally worthy or as easy to use as another one who doesn't need that and joins earlier, especially when it can potentially harm the rest of the team's growth, since each level is essential for the endgame bosses, and it puts in perspective how much training do certain Pokémon really need.

I don't think the method prevents the mon to have a chance. Spoink had difficulties at the start when it joined at lv22, but it could keep the pace in spite of the initial issues. Gorebyss was able to defeat Archie at Lv35-36 while Lanturn couldn't. That Lanturn faces Juan so underleveled under those constraints that you assess (regardless if it's sarcastic or not) a possible "bench time" speaks more about the Pokémon itself than my method. You can say that there is a pay-off after so much grinding, but I don't see it that way. I see a Pokémon that has needed the equivalent of getting my starter six levels to reach Lv54 to only be able to OHKO one mon more while still not being able to sweep, whereas Gorebyss has a better chance to deal with everyone by itself, and Swampert and Tentacruel jump from needing TMs to not needing any to defeat Juan consistently. What that tells me instead is that the experience and time I invested on Lanturn could have been put to better use for another Pokémon, and the proof is right there with Gorebyss (at least so far), and it'd probably have been with other lategame options such as Staryu, lategame Sharpedo or lategame Wailmer, too (haven't tested them yet properly).

At least we agree that Lanturn should be brought down, but I'm not sure C is enough. We'll see once we arrive at the Elite Four.
Could you share your Lanturn logs though? I have tried to search them but I don't seem to find them.
 
I think I stated before in this thread that I don't expect players to go through the game while adjusting their experience allocation the way I am currently doing in my playthrough.
This is what I meant. If you're doing things that are unnatural to common players, it creates some distortions.

Like I said, if I have a team ready for Juan, except a Lanturn at Lv. 32, odds are that it'll be relegated to HM duty, or I'll grind it so it can catch up with the team.

Putting up a mon so blatantly underleveled is just not something people really do unless there was a significant level spike like for example, the E4.

At least we agree that Lanturn should be brought down, but I'm not sure C is enough. We'll see once we arrive at the Elite Four.
Correct. It is an extremely late mon, at least 10 levels behind your team at the time of capture, a slow exp group mon, and requires heavy TM support to reach its full potential.

IF it has mostly positive major matchups, I can tolerate it in C or D. Otherwise, chuck this fool at E.


Could you share your Lanturn logs though? I have tried to search them but I don't seem to find them.
I used yours as a base when I commented on the Juan matchup.:psysly:

Honestly, post-catching up, it is a pretty good matchup based on what you said. It just requires a massive investment to do so.
 
Hot damn, it took way too much of my time. Never again. Here are my previous posts and a continuation of them.
1. Early and mid-game
2. Half of lategame

I catch 29lv Docile Chinchou near Sootopolis, give it Surf, Ice Beam and Dive. While I am at it, I change Gardevoir's Double Team to Flash. After evolving Chinchou and seeing its Spark's effectivness I fly back to Mauville and exchange 80k Pokedollars (out of 190k) for Thunderbolt which is given to Lanturn. Clearing routes goes faster now but Lanturn still needs healing from time to time. In Sootopolis, I change Blaziken's Double Kick to Brick Break. In Seafloor Cavern, I change Seviper's Dig to Earthquake. Movesets are pretty much done at this point except for unnecessary Solrock's Fire Spin. Brain reminds me that I wanted to give Solrock Shadow Ball and berates me for not doing that before Tate and Liza. So the logical conclusion is to reload my old savefile and check how good Solrock's Shadow Ball is against the twins (especially since you asked me, Revelation). Shadow Ball 2HKOs Xatu, Lunatone and Solrock and almost does the same to Claydol who survives on few pixels of HP. This solidifies that Solrock has good performance in that battle. Anyway, after reloading my newer savefile, I backtrack to Mt. Pyre, get Shadow Ball and train Lanturn. My water Pokemon gets experience from Mt. Pyre, Route 123 and three water routes (126-128) before I face Archie.
Blaziken (41lv): -1 Brick Break and Fire Blast 2HKO Mightyena (both bringing its HP to yellow/red). Fire Blast 2HKOs Crobat who 2HKOs Blaziken back with Wing Attack. One Bulk Up lets Blaziken OHKO Mightyena and allows it to survive two Wing Attacks. Sharpedo faints to -1 Brick Break and can only fight back with Slash (which barely 4HKOs Blaziken). Mightyena's Scary Face lets it (and Sharpedo) outspeed Blaziken which can end badly (Slash crit or Swagger as a parting gift). Persim Berry helps with the sweep but RNG can still royally screw you over and drain your healing items. Average performance. I'm honestly sick of Team Magma/Aqua RNG bullshit at this point.

Gardevoir (42lv): Thunderbolt 2HKOs Mightyena and OHKOs Sharpedo. Psychic OHKOs Crobat. Opponents can only 4-5HKO back so the only thing stopping Gardevoir is confusion. No need for Calm Minds. In the worst case scenario, you will need one healing item. Very good performance.

Seviper (42lv):
-1 Sludge Bomb 3HKOs Mightyena (Swagger turns it into 2HKO). Crobat goes down after three +1 Sludge Bombs or four Crunches. Sharpedo can't take more than two unboosted hits (+1 Sludge Bomb OHKOs). Opponents can't even 3HKO Seviper but the damage and RNG quickly add up. Persim Berry helps a lot but you can still get haxxed to death so healing is usually needed (1 Hyper Potion in most of my attempts). Average performance.

Solrock (42lv):
-1 Rock Slide 3HKOs Mightyena as well as 2HKOs Crobat and Sharpedo. Swagger turns them into 2HKO and OHKO respectively. Everything except for Crobat's Bite (which 3HKOs) is a gentle massage. The only way for Solrock to not sweep is to get haxed (Bite's flinches and confusion) so one healing item may be needed (two in extreme cases). Good performance

Lanturn (39lv):
Surf 2HKOs Mightyena. Thunderbolt 2HKOs Crobat and OHKOs Sharpedo. Mightyena and Sharpedo can 4HKO back. Crobat can't do jack (all of its moves are like 7-8HKOs) so it can only pray to RNG Jesus. Depending on your luck, Lanturn will need zero, one or two (in extremely unlucky scenario) healing items. Good performance

I clear water routes leading to Pacifidlog, let Rayquaza deal with two Hoenn neanderthals and face the last gym.
Blaziken (43lv): Brick Break OHKOs Crawdaunt and Sealeo, 2HKOs Luvdisc and Whiscash as well as 3HKOs Kingdra. One Bulk Up is necessary to have Kingdra within 2HKO range, two Bulk Ups let Blaziken OHKO Whiscash. Luvdisc's Water Pulse 4HKOs but RNG from Attract and Lovely Kiss is the main issue. Whiscash rarely attacks but can 3HKO at best. It's very easy for Blaziken to sweep first four Pokemon but Kingdra is a problem since it removes ~60% of Blaziken's HP with single Water Pulse (~90% if Whiscash Rain Dances). Sweeping the whole thing requires some luck (mainly Kingdra deciding to Double Team instead of Water Pulsing) and items (held Persim Berry removes a lot of RNG from the fight). I had attempts where Blaziken lost to Kingdra immediately but in one Blaziken wasn't even hurt in the whole battle. Good performance.

Gardevoir (43lv): Without boosts, Thunderbolt OHKOs Luvdisc and Crawdaunt. Sealeo can survive in the red zone but not in every attempt. Psychic 2HKOs Whiscash and 3HKOs Kingdra. Water moves can't even 4HKO Gardevoir. The scariest thing here is Whiscash's Earthquake which can 3HKO. Ideally, you want to set up 3 Calm Minds on anything not named Luvdisc and OHKO everyone. No items needed. Extremely good performance.

Seviper (43lv)
: Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Luvdisc who can only hax you in return (unfortunately, Seviper is slower). Whiscash can barely survive one Giga Drain but when it does, oh dear. It removes 75% of Seviper's health with one Earthquake. Thankfully, it never had a chance to use a second one. Sludge Bomb 3HKOs Kingdra who can 3HKO back with Ice Beam - X Attack lets Seviper win this match up relatively easily thanks to random poisons and 2HKO range. Sealeo falls to 2 Sludge Bombs (no matter if boosted or not) or 3 Giga Drains. Crawdaunt is defeated after 2 attacks but can 3HKO back with Crabhammer. Sweep is possible and healing items are usually needed (depending on RNG, between one to three - Giga Drain definitely helps reducing this number). The worst case scenario is being stuck confused against Whiscash. Average/good performance.

Solrock (43lv):
2HKOs Luvdisc who can 3HKO it back. Puts slower Sealeo in the red zone with single Rock Slide but loses 2/3 of its HP from Water Pulse. These two battles are the only ones Solrock can reliably win. Rock Slide can 3HKO Crawdaunt (who can 2HKO back) and 4HKO Whiscash (who can also 2HKO back). Kingdra, similarly to Luvdisc, is faster and puts Solrock in the red zone with single Water Pulse. Very bad performance. I tried stacking Cosmic Power but criticals, confusion and constant need of healing make it not worth it.

Lanturn (43lv): OHKOs Luvdisc who can only hax before Thunderbolt happens. Duel with Whiscash is relies on luck. Normally, Lanturn can 3HKO with Surf but Earthquake removes 2/3 of its HP. If Whicash uses Rain Dance then you win. If it uses Amnesia then you lose. Sealeo is within OHKO (it can survive on red) and can't fight back. Crawdaunt cannot survive Thunderbolt. Kingdra is not dangerous (Water Pulse 9HKOs, lol) but can consume your time with Double Team. X Special (against Luvdisc) allows you to beat Whiscash and Kingdra reliably (provided you don't get confused to death). Good performance.

I clear water routes west of Pacifidlog, fly to Mauville and exchange another 40k Pokedollars (out of (175k) for Flamethrower which I give to Blaziken. Sike! Fire Blast was just a substitute until I gathered more cash. All that is left is to go through Victory Road.
Blaziken (44lv): Strength 3-4HKOs Altaria who removes ~40% of Blaziken's HP with Aerial Ace. Winnable if Altaria uses Safeguard (which happened in most of my attempts) but it is foolish to not set up on the bird. +2 Bulk Up ensures 2HKO on Altaria and Gardevoir whose Future Sight does around 45 damage (out of Blaziken's 138 HP). Psychic oneshots but I have NEVER, in my ~10 attempts, seen Gardevoir use it before Future Sight. Anyway, if you are scared of Gardevoir, you can set up 4 Bulk Ups and oneshot it. Magneton, Roselia and Delcatty can be all oneshot without boosts. In the worst case scenario (Altaria going full berserk), you need one healing item. Good performance.

Gardevoir (44lv):
Unboosted Psychic 2HKOs Altaria and Delcatty. Magneton is within the same range but 3HKO is more common. Thunderbolt 3HKOs Gardevoir. Roselia is just a bag of experience to oneshot. Everything fails to even 4HKO Gardevoir (Altaria's Aerial Ace, Magneton's Thunderbolt, Delcatty's Faint Attack). 2 or 3 Calm Minds let you roflstomp Wally without needing to heal. Very good performance.

Seviper (44lv)
: Almost 2HKOs Altaria (leaves it in the red zone). Altaria struggles to 4HKO, usually leaving Seviper in the red zone as well. There is no way for Seviper to win against Gardevoir unless you feed it X Speed so it can 2HKO with Sludge Bomb (Gardevoir always uses Future Sight first). Delcatty and Roselia can survive one attack but they are not able to do anything in return (dealing around 15-20 damage out of 139 HP). Magneton falls to single Earthquake. Good performance. X Speed is a really big MVP here, allowing Seviper to outspeed Gardevoir and sweep comfortably with one healing item (unless you want to switch out of Future Sight).

Solrock (44lv): Unboosted, 2HKOs Altaria, Roselia, Delcatty and Gardevoir as well as 4-5HKOs Magneton. Single X Attack allows Solrock to OHKO Altaria, Roselia and Gardevoir as well as 3HKO Magneton (Delcatty still needs 2 hits). Defensively, Altaria 5HKOs with Dragonbreath, Roselia 2HKOs with Magical Leaf, Delcatty 4HKOs with Faint Attack, Magneton 2HKOs with Thunderbolt, Gardevoir removes ~40% of Solrock's HP with Psychic. You can set up Cosmic Power on Altaria to significantly reduce opponent's damage. Good performance. With one X Attack and one Cosmic Power, sweep goes smoothly but will most often require one healing item.

Lanturn (44lv): Has a chance to not OHKO Altaria with Ice Beam (lol). Reliably 2HKOs everyone bar Gardevoir who takes 3 hits before falling down. Altaria barely scratches it with Dragonbreath, Roselia 3HKOs with grass STABs, Magneton can 3HKO with Thunderbolt (but rarely uses it). X Special allows Lanturn to reliably OHKO Altaria, gives a chance to OHKO Roselia, Delcatty and Magneton (all three can survive in the red zone) but, most importantly, turns Gardevoir match up into less risky business - possibly 2HKOing it before it Calm Minds and nukes you. Good performance. After X Special, one healing item is usually enough to guarantee the sweep.

Victory Road proves to be difficult for most of my team but we manage. I still have around 160k Pokedollars when I reach League (despite spending 230k on Game Corner and not using Amulet Coin at all) so I spend 60k on healing items. I have 15 Full Restores, 15 Hyper Potions, 10 Full heals, 5 Revives and 2 Max Revives in total.
Blaziken (46lv): -1 Brick Break 2HKOs Absol, Mightyena and Crawdaunt. Flamethrower OHKOs Shiftry and Cacturne. Mightyena 3HKOs with Double-Edge, Absol 2HKOs with Aerial Ace and Crawdaunt can OHKO with Surf so there is no reason to go unboosted. One Bulk Up allows Blaziken to OHKO Mightyena and Absol while two guarantee to OHKO Crawdaunt. Guard Spec. at the beginning removes RNG element from the fight and allows an easy sweep. Very good performance.

Gardevoir (46lv):
Thunderbolt 2HKOs Mightyena whose attacks (Crunch and Double-Edge) 3HKO back. After that, Shiftry tries to hax you while you 5HKO with Thunderbolt. Calm Mind is necessary. +2 Thunderbolt OHKOs Mightyena, Crawdaunt and Absol as well as 3HKO grass types (Cacturne is within 2HKO). +3 Thunderbolt ensures 2HKOs on grass types. Shiftry's Torment is horrible but doesn't stop the sweep. Cacturne's Faint Attack does nothing and its Cotton Spore hardly matters - both Crawdaunt and Absol do 30-40% damage with their strongest attacks but they often prefer to boost instead. Good performance. Use Guard Spec., Calm Mind two or three times (depending on usage of opponent's Sand-Attacks), defeat Mightyena and go from there. It's too easy to sweep with just one healing item to call it an average performance.

Seviper (46lv): Ouch. -1 Sludge Bomb 3HKOs Mightyena, Crawdaunt and Absol while 2HKOing grass types. After X Attack, Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Mightyena, Absol, Crawdaunt and Shiftry (the last one being within OHKO range) while ensuring OHKO on Cacturne. Giga Drain 2HKOs Crawdaunt if you are wondering. Mightyena 3HKOs Seviper. Shiftry is faster and drops snake's health by 60% with Extrasensory so that's a big problem. Slower Crawdaunt can also 2HKO with Surf but it prefers to boost. Slower Absol can't even 3HKO without Swords Dance. Bad/average performance. It's an ugly battle - all depends on how derpy Sidney decides to be (Mightyena spamming Sand-Attack, Shiftry not attacking etc.). In theory, Shiftry walls Seviper. In practice, it prefers to spam Double Team and lose most of the time.

Solrock (46lv): Yea, no. -1 Rock Slide can't 3HKO Mightyena who sends Solrock to the red zone with single Crunch. After someone else takes care of Mightyena, Solrock has an easier time but still bad. Rock Slide 3HKOs Shiftry, Absol and Crawdaunt while barely 2HKOing Cacturne. Flamethrower wouldn't change much. In the meantime, faster Shiftry uses hax, slower Absol 4HKOs with Rock Slide, Crawdaunt oneshots with Surf and slower Cacturne sends Solrock to the red zone with its STABs. Very bad performance. Persim Berry against Swaggering Shiftry might be tempting but Solrock still struggles to OHKO anything while still being bothered by Surf, Faint Attack and Needle Arm.

Lanturn (46lv): The most straightforward one. 2HKOs everyone except for Crawdaunt who falls after one Thunderbolt (Absol may need 3 hits depending on the damage rolls). Mightyena's Double-Edge 4HKOs, Cacturne's Needle Arm 2-3HKOs (but it prefers to Cotton Spore, even after you use Guard Spec.), Shiftry's Extrasensory barely does anything, Crawdaunt and Absole struggle to 4HKO without boosts (doing around ~25% damage). Absol outspeeds Lanturn and is the only one who stops the sweep after you use Guard Spec. on the first turn and just attack. One healing item is usually enough unless you get extremely unlucky with Shiftry. Good performance.

I've discovered something in the middle of testing Phoebe. If a Pokemon doesn't move and just receives X items, Dusclops1 won't touch it. The ghost Pokemon wastes all 10 turns on Protect. I have checked it a dozen of times. Sweep is basically guaranteed for everyone with 3 to 6 boosts. Imagine - 8 to 11 turns to reliably sweep E4 member for the cost of 1 strong healing item. For the sake of testing, I will still provide in-depth information about battles but I consider that everyone's performance is good here.

Blaziken (47lv)
: Brick Break and Strength are useless. Flamethrower 2HKOs Dusclops1 and Banette1 while 3HKOing Dusclops2. First Dusclops can barely 4HKO Blaziken with Shadow Punch but the latter two can easily 2HKO. The sweep is hard walled by Phoebe's ace at this point so X Special is mandatory. +1 Flamethrower 2HKOs both Dusclops and semi-reliably OHKOs everyone else (I saw other ghosts survive on red in a few attempts). +3 has a big chance to roflstomp (only Dusclops2 might survive in the red zone) and +5 guarantees it. Leppa Berry is definitely handy here since Dusclops' Pressure reduces Flamethrower's PP rapidly. One Bulk Up helps a lot when tanking Earthquake if you decide to be a cheapskate with X Special.

Gardevoir (46lv): 2HKOs Dusclops1 and both Banette. 3HKOs Dusclops2 and Sableye (with Psychic and Thunderbolt respectively). Both Dusclops 2HKO with their STABs while the rest has a chance to oneshot Gardevoir with Shadow Ball. +3 SpA lets Gardevoir oneshot everyone bar Dusclops2 and +4 SpA guarantees a sweep. Setting up is only possible on Dusclops1. Calm Minds are cheaper but risky because AI wakes up and tries to be funny with Curse and Confuse Ray. X Specials are safer.

Seviper (46lv): Crunch 3HKOs Dusclops1, 2HKOs Banette1 and 4HKOs Dusclops 2. First Dusclops 4HKOs Seviper with Shadow Punch but the latter two can easily 2HKO (Banette's Psychic is especially deadly - reducing HP by ~75%). It's a repeat of Blaziken - Seviper is hard walled by Dusclops2. X Specials help a lot. +3 Crunch oneshots everyone bar Dusclops2 and Sableye (those require +5 and +6 respectively to go down with one hit). You only need +3 because Seviper can tank combined damage of Dusclops2' Earthquake and Sableye's offensive move (unless one of them crits).

Solrock (46lv): Shadow Ball 3HKOs both Dusclops and 2HKOs both Banette. Rock Slide 3HKOs Sableye. EVERYONE 2HKOs Solrock back. Single X Attack turn 3HKOs into 2HKOs. Two let you OHKO both Banette. Three let you oneshot Sableye. Four let you roflstomp. Three are enough since Dusclops2 can't faint Solrock without a critical. If you are a cheapskate then Cosmic Power helps tanking hits better but you are introducing unnecessary risk in form of Dusclops1 waking up and slapping Solrock with Confuse Ray or Curse.

Lanturn (46lv): STABs 3HKO everyone except for Dusclops2 who takes 4 hits before fainting. Small baby Dusclops struggles to 4HKO back with Shadow Punch but the big boy Dusclops 2HKOs with ease after shaking the ground. Both Banette easily 3HKO Lanturn but Sableye struggles to do the same (it does around 30-34% damage). Since big daddy Dusclops comes immediately after little boy Dusclops, you need X Specials to sweep. At least three are mandatory to OHKO everyone bar mummy brothers. Six let you roflstomp and I recommend taking that amount. One Banette outsped my Lanturn (even after it leveled up) so it would be unwise to take Earthquake from Dusclops2 before facing it.

Blaziken (47lv): Puts everyone in the red/yellow zone with either Break Brick or Flamethrower except for Walrein who is still within 2HKO range. First Sealeo can only 4HKO with Body Slam but Walrein, who comes next, easily OHKOs with Surf. The solution is easy - Bulk Up twice to roflstomp Glacia. The only thing slowing Blaziken down is paralyze from Body Slam so Cheri Berry guarantees an easy sweep. Very good performance.

Gardevoir (46lv):
Thunderbolt 2HKOs Sealeo who always opens up with Hail and can only 4HKO back with Body Slam. Glalie1 3HKOs with Crunch and survives 2 Psychics. There's also a risk of Gardevor getting slowed down by Icy Wind or opponent using Light Screen. The solution is once again easy - Calm Mind 3 times to roflstomp Glacia. Good/very good performance. Hail and Body Slam shenanigans can eat some medical resources at the beginning.

Seviper (47lv): Sludge Bomb 3HKOs Sealeo (and everyone else bar Walrein) who 4HKOs back with Body Slam and hail damage. After that match up, Glalie1 outspeeds and 2HKOs with Ice Beam. Walrein proves to be worse since it eats 4/5 Sludge Bombs before fainting while defeating Seviper with 2 Surfs. Even after one X Speed and three X Attacks, Seviper can still fail to OHKO anything. +3 Sludge Bomb puts Walrein in the yellow zone but nowhere near red zone. Only +6 Sludge Bomb guarantees OHKO on everyone. Very bad performance. Seviper can only reliably solo first Sealeo without items so it doesn't even provide much help if it joins mid-battle.

Solrock (46lv): 2HKOs everyone bar Walrein (who usually ends up in the yellow zone and eats Sitrus Berry after one hit). Sealeo1 3HKOs back with Ice Ball and hail damage. Sealeo2 sends Solrock to the yellow zone with Blizzard. Glalie are faster and easily 2HKO with different moves. Walrein actually speed ties and can OHKO with Surf. With one X Speed and three X Attacks, Solrock roflstomps with Rock Slide spam (two X Attacks are enough with good damage roll against Walrein) but it can't reliably spend 4 turns on buffing. Bad performance.

Lanturn (46lv):
2HKOs Sealeo as well as 3HKOs Glalie and Walrein (Sitrus Berry saves it from 2HKO). On the other hand, Sealeo1 and Glalie 5HKO Lanturn while Sealeo2 and Walrein 4HKO. Active hail changes those to 4HKO and 3HKO respectively. One X Special brings all Glacia's Pokemon to 2HKO range (but nothing is guaranteed to be oneshot). Two X Specials guarantee OHKO on Sealeo. Three let you oneshot Walrein. Five are needed to OHKO Glalie. X Speed helps since Glalie like to either blow up on Lanturn or Light Screen. 3 Specials and 1 Speed is the optimal way, in my opinion. Average performance. Sweep is possible but inefficient - the battle ends up being a slapfest with healing items or big setup before a big roflstomp.

I have noticed that Drake, similarly to Phoebe, prefers to sit in a corner and watch his initial Pokemon spam Protect if you spam X items. Shelgon does attack from time to time but 3 out of 4 times it prefers to defend itself.

Blaziken (47lv): Brick Break 3HKOs Shelgon who struggles to deal more than 20% damage with Rock Tomb but comfortably 3HKOs with Dragonbreath/Double-Edge (the latter two are rare though). Flygon comes next, outspeeds Blaziken and oneshots it with Earthquake. Similar story with Kingdra but change Earthquake to Surf. Salamence is also faster but "only" 2HKOs (it doesn't matter since Flamethrower looks like it can 6HKO at best). Slower Altaria could be beaten in 4 hits with Strength... if not for the fact that it also 2HKOs Blaziken. Absolutely abysmal performance so boosting is required. After one Bulk Up, Shelgon is within 2HKO and Flygon's Earthquake does not oneshot Blaziken. Three Bulk Ups let Blaziken survive two Earthquakes from full health but still won't help OHKOing Shelgon or Flygon. Five Bulk Ups let Blaziken OHKO both of them and comfortably 2HKO Altaria. Then Kingdra comes and oneshots again. To go past this point, Blaziken requires enough X Speed (the amount depends on how many Shelgon's Rock Tombs it ate) to reach +1 and OHKO Kingdra with +5 Brick Break. Salamence and Blaziken 2HKO each other at this point. 6 Bulk Ups don't change anything. Bad performance. It can technically sweep but it requires like 10 turns of setup (5 Bulk Ups, a few X Speed/Guard Spec. and at least a couple of healing items). If it joins mid-batle, it won't provide any support.

Gardevoir (47lv): Psychic 2HKOs Shelgon who deals around 20% damage with Rock Tomb and 40-45% with Double-Edge. After that, it's a grim scenario if Gardevoir goes unboosted. Psychic 2-3HKOs Flygon, 3-4HKOs Salamence (without Sitrus Berry, it would be an easy 3HKO), 2HKOs Altaria (two hits would normally leave it in the red zone but the recoil from Double-Edge helps) and 3HKOs Kingdra. In return, faster Flygon 2HKOs with Earthquake, faster Salamence 2-3HKOs with Crunch, slower Altaria 3-4HKOs with unboosted Double-Edge, slower Kingdra 2HKOs with +1 Body Slam (it refused to hit me without using Dragon Dance beforehand). Three Calm Minds let Gardevoir OHKO Shelgon and Flygon but fail to do the same to Salamence and Altaria. Four Calm Minds guarantee OHKO on everyone. Average/good performance. Gardevoir needs a Guard Spec. and either a couple of healing items or single X Speed to not take damage from Flygon and Salamence. With slightly worse IVs/lower level Kingdra outspeeds Gardevoir.

Seviper (47lv): Sludge Bomb can't reliably 3HKO Shelgon. Let that sink in. Shelgon deals pitiful damage with Rock Tomb (~20%) and 3HKOs with Double-Edge. This is also the only match up which Seviper is faster in. Flygon OHKOs with Earthquake. Altaria 3HKOs while being 3HKOed back. Kingdra 2HKOs (Surf easily takes ~70% of Seviper's HP) while being 3-4HKOed back. Salamence 2HKOs while laughing at Seviper's damage. I went ahead and just pumped Seviper full of vitamins. Single X Speed allows it to outspeed Drake's whole team. Five/six X Attacks let the snake OHKO Altaria, Shelgon and Kingdra but Salamence and Flygon survive (Salamence rarely after six X Attacks). This means that Seviper also needs at least one X Defend to survive Flygon's Earthquake (which still takes more than 80% of snake's HP). On top of that, it needs two Guard Spec. and one or two healing items. Very bad/bad performance. It can't solo anything if it joins mid-battle.

Solrock (46lv): Psychic reliably 3HKOs Shelgon whose Rock Tomb deals less than 20% damage (Dragon Claw almost 2HKOs but fails to do so). Rock Slide reliably (but barely) 2HKOs faster Altaria who 2-3HKOs with Dragonbreath (although AI usually prefers to uselessly boost with Dragon Dance). Good news are now over. Solrock is slower than the remaining Pokemon. Kingdra OHKOs with Surf. Salamence OHKOs with Crunch. Flygon sends Solrock to the yellow/red zone with Crunch while not even being 4HKOed by Psychic. Five X Attacks put Shelgon, Salamence and Kingdra within OHKO range (Shelgon and Kingdra may still survive). Flygon survives two hits. Six X Attacks ensure OHKOs but Flygon STILL can survive 2 hits. For the sake of testing, I checked X Specials. +6 Psychic OHKOs Shelgon but fails to oneshot Salamence. Bad performance. Solrock can help take out Altaria if it joins mid-battle.

Lanturn (46lv): Ice Beam 2HKOs Shelgon whose Rock Tomb deals less than 20% damage (Double-Edge can easily 3HKO). Flygon comes next and oneshots Lanturn with Earthquake. After swallowing X Speed, Lanturn fails to OHKO Flygon with Ice Beam. I decided to check other Pokemon anyway. Lanturn is obviously slower than the remaining Pokemon. Altaria 4HKOs with Double-Edge and falls after 2 Ice Beams. Kingdra 3HKOs with Body Slam while falling after 4 Thunderbolts. Salamence 2-3HKOs with Dragon Claw but falls after 2 Ice Beams. Unsurprisingly, boosting is required to sweep. X Speed allows it to outspeed Drake's whole team (well, Salamence speed tied). Two X Specials guarantee OHKOs on everyone excluding Kingdra (who falls to two Thunderbolts). Average/good performance. Only needing four (five if you need to heal due to Kingdra's shenanigans) items to sweep is a positive. Being able to join mid-battle to take care of either Altaria or Salamence is also nice.

Just before facing the champion I give Rare Candies to Solrock and Lanturn to even the levels a little.
Blaziken (47lv): Brick Break would 4HKO Wailord but Water Spout stops any funny business. Good start but the continuation is even better. Blaziken fails to outspeed Tentacruel who OHKOs with Hydro Pump (if it misses, Strength does around 20% damage). I think Brick Break 3-4HKOs Ludicolo and 4-5HKOs Whiscash but both oneshot with Surf anyway. Gyarados provides some variety and, after outspeeding, oneshots Blaziken with Earthquake. Milotic outspeeds and OHKOs with Surf. Extremely bad performance.

Gardevoir (48lv):
Gardevoir outspeeds everyone surprisingly. Thunderbolt sends Wailord to the yellow zone, making Water Spout 4HKO (however Double-Edge can still 2-3HKO back). Psychic 2HKOs Tentacruel and 3HKOs Ludicolo who both 3HKO back with their strongest moves. Whiscash is a problem since it 2HKOs with Earthquake while falling after three Psychics. Gyarados is usually OHKOed by Thunderbolt but can survive on few pixels of HP (it always Dragon Dances before OHKOing with +1 Hyper Beam). Milotic and Gardevoir 3HKO each other. 2 Calm Minds let Gardevour OHKO Wailord, Tentacruel and Gyarados. 4 Calm Minds are too much for everyone to handle - only Milotic survives one hit but can't fight back. Setting up is comically easy - Water Spout can't 2HKO after boosts and single X Defend ensures Gardevoir survives two Double-Edges. Depending on Wailord's mood one to three items are needed. Good/very good performance.

Seviper (47lv)
: Sludge Bomb 4HKOs. First hit allows it to survive Water Spout, however it can't take two hits from Double-Edge anyway. Seviper 2HKOs Tentacruel with Earthquake and 2HKOs Ludicolo with Sludge Bomb but both of them are faster. With some luck, snake can win these match ups (Tentacruel needs to miss Hydro Pump and Ludicolo has to use Double Team on the first turn). Whiscash, despite being slower, can survive 2 Giga Drains and oneshot with Earthquake. Gyarados immediately OHKOs with Earthquake before Seviper can do anything. Milotic outspeeds, 2HKOs with Surf (one already puts Seviper in the red zone) and loses less than 30% HP from single Sludge Bomb. Very bad performance.

Solrock (47lv):
Rock Slide potentially 4HKOs Wailord (who OHKOs with Water Spout, even at half HP) and 3HKOs Tentacruel (who outspeeds and OHKOs with Hydro Pump). Ludicolo outspeeds and has a big chance to OHKO with Giga Drain (Rock Slide looks like 3-4HKO here). Whiscash doesn't even lose 20% of its HP from any of Solrock's attacks and OHKOs back with Surf. Both Gyarados and Milotic outspeed and OHKO with Surf. Extremely bad performance.

Lanturn (47lv):
First of all, Lanturn is slower than anyone excluding Whiscash so X Speed helps. Thunderbolt 2HKOs Wailord (who can't even 2HKO back with Double-Edge) and 1-2HKOs Gyarados (who OHKOs back with Earthquake). Wallace is trigger-happy and can switch to Whiscash at any time. While slower, Whiscash eats Surf like it is nothing and OHKOs back with Earthquake. If Lanturn is fed two X Specials, +2 Thunderbolt OHKOs both Wailord and Gyarados but has trouble to 2HKO Ludicolo who comes next. What's worse, the duck easily 2HKOs back with Giga Drain. Trying to boost higher than +2 SpA requires too many healing items and increases the risk of Whiscash appearing so the sweep stops here. I tried switching Lanturn in on different Pokemon. Tentacruel outspeeds, 3HKOs with Sludge Bomb while falling to 3 Thunderbolts. Milotic outspeeds, 4HKOs with Surf while falling to 4 Thunderbolts (3 would be enough, however Sitrus Berry saves it). Bad performance. Unboosted, Lanturn can win against half of Wallace's team (Wailord, Tentacruel and Milotic) but requires healing items.

I assume that not everyone wants to read that little novel I have written above so here's a summary of ratings I have given to every Pokemon in every major battle.
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These are, of course, subjective. You can have different views depending on how you treat item usage, setting up, dealing with higher level opponents etc. I tried to be very detailed with my work so you should have a very good idea how each Pokemon performs. I consider my run pretty casual - I beat most trainers (skipped Meteor Falls and Shoal Cave), spent reasonable amount of cash on Game Corner, optimized some TMs and tried to keep my levels even as well as fair. Natures were mostly neutral, IVs usually within 11-25 range with few exceptions. Here are my thoughts about each of my team members:
Torchic/Combusken/Blaziken: Starts pretty slow but gains significant power after evolving and learning Bulk Up. Boosting is insanely handy in most fights since it helps tanking and lessens the disadvantage of using low BP fighting STAB. The whole segment between Dewford and Mosdeep is Torchic's playground since Fire/Fighting is a brilliant offensive typing. Being stuck with Ember for some time is not a problem. Water Saga of Hoenn is problematic for Torchic but not too bad - Tate, Liza and Archie are bastards but Torchic gets stronger STABs here and can clear routes just fine. Juan is surprisingly not hard to deal with. Endgame performance is overall more good than bad - being able to relatively easily sweep 3 out of 5 members of the League is nothing to laugh at.

Ralts/Kirlia/Gardevoir: Devours early experience points while not doing much with them for a while. Confusion and Double Team at early levels make it an average Pokemon. After evolving, Kirlia continues to not be impressive until it gets Calm Mind three levels later. With boosting it has an easier time with route cleaning but the real MVP is Psychic at 26 which skyrockets Kirlia's usefulness. Since route cleaning is generally easy and the only major battle between evolving to Kirlia and getting Psychic is Wattson (and Maxie in more sizeable teams) 18-26 level period is a small disadvantage. After getting coverage (in form of Shock Wave) and evolving, this line becomes absolutely bonkers. The amount of effortless sweeps, Gardevoir makes, is insane. There is nothing to add here since every battle after Flannery was easy (apart from a couple of League members who were tricky when I went in blind).

Seviper: It was promising the moment I caught it thanks to its good damage versus route trainers and small experience needs, however it quickly changed. Seviper simply does not have enough power for most of the game. Poison Tail is far from ideal between Flannery and Norman (Petalburg Gym and water routes around Dewford). Later, relying on Sludge Bomb for big damage is problematic since its effectivness is most commonly neutral. This could have been fixed with the access to some sort of boosting move but Seviper doesn't have one. Wide movepool (Flamethrower, Earthquake, Giga Drain and Crunch) is appealing but coverage attacks often underwhelm (e.g. Giga Drain failing to OHKO Juan's Whiscash). It's just a thing that looks better on paper than it is in practice. Seviper's performance in major battles is average before E4 and abysmal in League. On a plus side, I didn't feel like Seviper had below average bulk - it was fine. Lastly, it's worth noting that the snake eats a lot of experience in the lategame. Not enough for me to care but it's visible.

Solrock: Starts rather unassuming after being caught, bonking trainers with Rock Throws and Confusions. Low power STABs quickly make Solrock fall behind the rest of the team damage-wise. This can be partially fixed with Psychic and completely fixed after getting Rock Slide at 37. Solrock's performance in midgame is very good in major battles. Its typing allows it to tank many hits and dish out some reasonable pain (Flannery, Winona, Tate and Liza are particularly noteworthy). Water Saga of Hoenn is not bad to it but the first sign of a big problem shows here. Route trainers aren't an issue but Juan's battle is simply disastrous. After that, every major battle is a nightmare for Solrock (except for Wally and cheesable Phoebe). It's like a reverse Treecko at times.

Chinchou/Lanturn: Starts majorly underleveled and needs heavy dosage of experience to keep up with the team. Thankfully, everything around it is weak to its electric STAB so training goes smoothly. The combination of resistance to water attacks and Thunderbolt makes Lanturn a great ally against Juan. Ice Beam is an essential addition to the moveset when facing E4 since it hits Drake and Sidney hard. Offensively, it isn't actually that amazing when it hits for neutral damage but the typing can hide that. Defensively, it stands out but not by much - usually just taking one more hit than other Pokemon. Overall, its performance in major battles is mostly good until it hits last three battles - Glacia, Drake and Wallace prove to be quite a hurdle.

Without spending more of your time, here are my rankings for my team members:
Torchic - A tier. After evolving, it consistently manages to impress with its reliable sweeps. You can count on one hand its unfavourable major battles. If not for the horrible performance versus Roxanne, Tate, Liza, Drake and Wallace, I would consider it an S tier.
Ralts - S tier. Despite starting average, it becomes a complete destroyer midgame. Every point of experience is worth it to see its magnificent sweeps.
Seviper - D tier. Although it has a few good match ups, it failed to impress me. I would describe its midgame (counting major battles) as average and its lategame performance as garbage. Honestly, if Seviper was slightly worse I would even consider E tier here.
Solrock - C tier (raise). Its midgame performance is very good (especially versus Flannery and Winona), lategame very mixed (good against Tate and Liza while bad against Juan) and endgame very garbage (pretty much everyone at League destroy it excluding Phoebe... ironically).
Chinchou - C tier (drop). It comes very late so it doesn't contribute to early and midgame. It helps in the lategame battles but not spectacularly enough to be considered B tier.
 
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I want to test Pelipper, Vileplume, Whiscash, Absol, and Pinsir. Is it best to get my Oddish from Route 110, Route 119, or somewhere else?
I would normally advise to catch it on Route 119 since you can immediately teach it Sludge Bomb and evolve it, however... Barboach, Absol and Pinsir are available after beating Norman. To avoid running through half of the game with just Pelipper, it may be worth it to catch Oddish on either Route 110 or Route 117. I suspect it's going to be disappointing though. Wattson and Flannery are bad match-ups for it. Acid and Bullet Seed are not exactly fun STABs to use midgame either... still, it's better than doing solo playthrough until you get Surf.
 
I would normally advise to catch it on Route 119 since you can immediately teach it Sludge Bomb and evolve it, however... Barboach, Absol and Pinsir are available after beating Norman. To avoid running through half of the game with just Pelipper, it may be worth it to catch Oddish on either Route 110 or Route 117. I suspect it's going to be disappointing though. Wattson and Flannery are bad match-ups for it. Acid and Bullet Seed are not exactly fun STABs to use midgame either... still, it's better than doing solo playthrough until you get Surf.
Is there some reason why you don't want me to solo half the game? The more I look at Wingull's and Oddish's level up moves, the more I think it would be terribly painful to fight Wattson and Flannery using both of them.
 
Is there some reason why you don't want me to solo half the game? The more I look at Wingull's and Oddish's level up moves, the more I think it would be terribly painful to fight Wattson and Flannery using both of them.
There is only one reason you wouldn't want to - testing Pokemon becomes meaningless if you use overleveled Pokemon. Pelipper can get to 35 level or higher by the team you reach Flannery whose Pokemon are on 24-29. If you plan to use your starter and share its experience with Wingull, I think it is fine. Come to think of it, I didn't think about Wingull going against Wattson earlier. Seems impossible to win, even when overleveled.
 
I finished my playthrough with Mudkip, Tentacool, Chinchou and Clamperl (Gorebyss). I branched in two possible playstyles. The first one involved from the first Juan log onwards, where I advance further through the game. This is the "lower leveled" one.


Swampert Lv50 (w/ Soft Sand): Blizzard OHKOs Altaria and Roselia. Surf OHKOs Delcatty and Magneton, and 2HKOs Gardevoir. Mud Shot OHKOs Magneton, and 2HKOs Delcatty and Gardevoir. With the Earthquake TM, Swampert OHKOs Gardevoir.

Tentacruel Lv47: Blizzard OHKOs Altaria and Roselia. Surf 2HKOs Magneton (OHKO in Rain) and Delcatty (OHKO in Rain), and 3HKOs Gardevoir (2HKO in Rain).

Lanturn Lv36: Blizzard misses out the OHKO against Altaria, and 2HKOs Roselia even after Leech Seed. Thunder 3HKOs Altaria. Surf 3HKOs Delcatty (2HKO in Rain) and 4HKO Gardevoir (3HKO in Rain).

Gorebyss Lv41: Blizzard OHKOs Altaria and Roselia. Surf 2HKOs Magneton and Delcatty (OHKO in Rain), and 3HKOs Gardevoir (2HKO in Rain) - however Magneton outspeeds and OHKOs with Thunderbolt. Must use the Rain Dance TM to sweep.


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Swampert Lv52 (w/ Soft Sand): After Intimidate, Earthquake 2HKOs Mightyena, Crawdaunt and Absol. Blizzard OHKOs Cacturne and misses out the OHKO against Shiftry - however, the combination of Mud Shot and Blizzard can defeat Shiftry.

Tentacruel Lv49 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Surf 2HKOs Mightyena (OHKO under Rain) and Absol (OHKO under Rain), and 3HKOs Crawdaunt (2HKO under Rain). Blizzard OHKOs Cacturne and 2HKOs Shiftry. With the Sludge Bomb TM, Tentacruel OHKOs Shiftry and misses out on the OHKO against Cacturne by very little.

Lanturn Lv39 (w/ Magnet): Thunder 2HKOs Mightyena and Absol (before Sitrus Berry) and OHKOs Crawdaunt. Blizzard 2HKOs Cacturne and Shiftry. Surf 3HKOs Mightyena (2HKO under Rain) and Absol (2HKO under Rain).

Gorebyss Lv44 (w/ Nevermeltice): Surf 2HKOs Mightyena (OHKO under Rain) and Absol (OHKO under Rain), and 3HKOs Crawdaunt (2HKO under Rain). Blizzard OHKOs Shiftry and Cacturne. Needs the Rain Dance TM for a sweep.



Swampert Lv52 (w/ Soft Sand): Swampert can 2HKO everyone with a combination of Mud Shot and Earthquake. Earthquake is a OHKO range against Sableye and Banette.

Tentacruel Lv49 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Surf 2HKOs Banette and Sableye (the first Banette is a range in Rain for the OHKO), and 3HKOs Dusclops (before Sitrus Berry, 2HKOs in Rain). Earthquake 2HKOs, but it can be alleviated with Barrier.

Lanturn Lv39 (w/ Mystic Water): Surf under Rain 3HKOs Dusclops and 2HKOs Banette and Sableye. Dusclops's Earthquake 2HKOs Lanturn, and both Banette outspeed and 2HKO with Shadow Ball.

Gorebyss Lv44 (w/ Mystic Water): In rain, Surf OHKOs the first Banette, although the second and Sableye are ranges, and 2HKOs Dusclops. Must use the Rain Dance TM. Iron Defense helps against Earthquake and Shadow Ball, and can be set up against the second Banette.



Swampert Lv52 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Swampert can 2HKO everyone up to Walrein (the second Sealeo is a range, but that can be remedied with Soft Sand) with the combination of Mud Shot and Earthquake. Swampert outspeeds everyone, but Icy Wind lets it be outsped by Glacie and Walrein. Walrein is 3HKOd by Earthquake.

Tentacruel Lv50 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Surf 3HKOs Glalie (2HKOs in Rain). Sludge Bomb 3HKOs Sealeo and Glalie, and 4HKOs Walrein before Sitrus Berry.

Lanturn Lv39 (w/ Magnet) : Thunder 2HKOs Sealeo and Walrein. Sadly, Surf 3HKOs Glalie in Rain.

Gorebyss Lv44 (w/ Mystic Water): Even in Rain, Gorebyss 3HKOs Sealeo and 4HKOs Walrein. It 2HKOs Glalie in Rain.


Swampert Lv53 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Earthquake 2HKOs Shelgon and Kingdra. Blizzard OHKOs Altaria, Flygon and Salamence. A sweep is possible, although by a small margin because of Swampert's low speed that lets it be outsped by everyone except for Shelgon, whom Swampert outspeeds even after Rock Tomb.

Tentacruel Lv50 (w/ Nevermeltice): Blizzard OHKOs Shelgon, Altaria, Flygon and Salamence. Sludge Bomb 4HKOs Kingdra. Barrier can be used to circumvent Dragon Dance.

Lanturn Lv40 (w/ Magnet): Thunder 3HKOs Kingdra. Flygon outspeeds and OHKOs with Earthquake. Blizzard 2HKOs Shelgon and Salamence, while they outspeed and 2HKO back.

Gorebyss Lv45 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Blizzard OHKOs Shelgon, Altaria, Flygon and Salamence, and 3HKOs Kingdra. There is not enough PPs for a sweep, and facing Kingdra in the rain is a terrible idea. Gorebyss outspeeds Flygon and Salamence in the rain.


Swampert Lv53 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Earthquake OHKOs Tentacruel, 2HKOs Wailord and Whiscash, and 3HKOs Milotic, who can use Recover. Blizzard 4HKOs Gyarados, who can amass Dragon Dance boosts, and Ludicolo, who can OHKO back with Giga Drain. Rock Tomb 3HKOs Gyarados (5HKOs after Intimidate).

Tentacruel Lv50 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Ludicolo, and 4HKOs Wailord, which threatens with Water Spout or Double Edge. Whiscash and Gyarados OHKO with Earthquake. Milotic can simply recover the damage.

Lanturn Lv40 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Thunder 2HKOs Wailord, but it outspeeds and 2HKOs back with Double Edge, and it 3HKOs Tentacruel, who can 2HKO with Sludge Bomb, and Milotic (before Sitrus Berry), who can use Recover. Ludicolo outspeeds and uses Giga Drain. Whiscash is immune and uses Earthquake. Gyarados outspeeds and uses Earthquake. Basically, Lanturn can't defeat anyone 1 vs 1.

Gorebyss Lv45 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Using Rain is a bad idea. Psychic 3HKOs Tentacruel, 4HKOs Wailord, 5HKOs Whiscash, 6HKOs Gyarados and Milotic can simply recover the damage. Ludicolo can use Giga Drain against it.

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The second version of these logs are from the save that went through every trainer in Hoenn to have better levels. This was done according to complaints to Lanturn's levels in the previous logs.

Swampert Lv56 (w/ Soft Sand): Blizzard OHKOs Altaria. Earthquake OHKOs everyone else.

Tentacruel Lv53 (w/ Mystic Water): Blizzard OHKOs Altaria. Surf 2HKOs Gardevoir, and OHKOs the rest.

Lanturn Lv44 (w/ Magnet): Blizzard misses out the OHKO for short against Roselia, but it OHKOs Altaria. Surf 2HKOs Magneton and Delcatty. Thunder misses out the OHKO for short against Delcatty. Gardevoir is 2HKO'd by Thunder.

Gorebyss Lv50 (w/ Mystic Water): Hydro Pump OHKOs Delcatty and Magneton, but it misses out on the OHKO against Gardevoir by very little (it's ensured in Rain). Blizzard OHKOs Roselia and Altaria.


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Swampert Lv57 (w/ Soft Sand): Even after Intimidate, Earthquake 2HKOs Mightyena, Crawdaunt and Absol. Blizzard OHKOs Cacturne and Shiftry.

Tentacruel Lv54 (w/ Mystic Water): Surf OHKOs Mightyena (it is a range, though), 2HKOs Absol and misses out by little the OHKO against Crawdaunt. With the Sludge Bomb TM, Tentacruel OHKOs both Shiftry and Cacturne, and 2HKOs Crawdaunt.

Lanturn Lv46 (w/ Mystic Water): Surf 2HKOs Mightyena (OHKOs in Rain) and Absol (misses the OHKO in rain). Thunder OHKOs Crawdaunt. Blizzard OHKOs Cacturne (it is a range, however) and 2HKOs Shiftry (who outspeeds and can use Double Team).

Gorebyss Lv53 (w/ Mystic Water): Hydro Pump OHKOs Mightyena and Absol, and misses out by little the OHKO against Crawdaunt (it is a OHKO in rain). Blizzard 2HKOs Crawdaunt, and OHKOs Shiftry and Cacturne.


Swampert Lv57 (w/ Soft Sand): Swampert can 2HKO both Dusclops with the combination of Mud Shot and Earthquake. Otherwise, Earthquake OHKOs everything else.

Tentacruel Lv54 (w/ Mystic Water): Surf 2HKOs Sableye (OHKO under Rain), Banette (OHKO under Rain) and the first Dusclops, while it 3HKOs the second (2HKO in rain). Dusclops's Earthquake can be alleviated with Barrier.

Lanturn Lv46 (w/ Mystic Water): Under Rain, Lanturn 2HKOs the first Dusclops with Surf, but it is a 3HKO against the second one before Sitrus Berry, who can 2HKO it back with Earthquake. Rain boosted Surf and Thunder are 2HKOs against everyone else.

Gorebyss Lv53 (w/ Mystic Water): Hydro Pump OHKOs the first Dusclops (it seems to be a range though), both Banettes and Sableye, while it 2HKOs the second Dusclops (it is a OHKO in rain).


Swampert Lv57 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Earthquake 2HKOs everyone. The combination of Mud Shot and Earthquake 2HKOs everyone except for Walrein.

Tentacruel Lv54 (w/ Mystic Water): Sludge Bomb 3HKOs Sealeo and Glalie, and 4HKOs Walrein before Sitrus Berry.

Lanturn Lv46 (w/ Magnet): Thunder is a OHKO range against Sealeo and 2HKOs Walrein, but it misses out by little on the 2HKO against Glalie. Surf 3HKOs Glalie (2HKOs in rain), but Light Screen and Hail will make this endeavor difficult and impede a sweep.

Gorebyss Lv53 (w/ Mystic Water): Rain boosted Hydro Pump can OHKO Glalie, and 2HKOs Sealeo and Walrein (before Sitrus Berry, it then becomes a 3HKO). Can't prescind of Mystic Water since it doesn't reach KO benchmarks otherwise.


Swampert Lv57 (w/ Soft Sand): Blizzard OHKOs Shelgon, Altaria, Flygon and Salamence. The combination of Mud Shot and Earthquake defeat Shelgon and Kingdra.

Tentacruel Lv54 (w/ Nevermeltice): Blizzard OHKOs Shelgon, Altaria, Flygon and Salamence. Sludge Bomb 3HKOs Kingdra.

Lanturn Lv46 (w/ Nevermeltice): Blizzard 2HKOs Shelgon, and OHKOs Altaria and Salamence (both seem to be ranges).

Gorebyss Lv54 (w/ Nevermeltice): Blizzard OHKOs Shelgon, Altaria, Flygon and Salamence, and 2HKOs Kingdra (it is a range, though). Kingdra can be 3HKOd with Blizzard and two Rain boosted Hydro Pumps - however, Smokescreen will disrupt this. Rain boosted Hydro Pump OHKOs Flygon.


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Swampert Lv58 (w/ Soft Sand): Earthquake OHKOs Tentacruel (even after Intimidate), and 2HKOs Wailord, Whiscash and Milotic (even after Intimidate). Blizzard 3HKOs Gyarados. Ludicolo is a lost cause since it 2HKOs with Giga Drain.

Tentacruel Lv55 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Ludicolo, and misses out on the OHKO by very little. It also 3HKOs Gyarados (needs to have set up Barrier to survive Earthquake), Wailord and Milotic. and 5HKOs Tentacruel. Giga Drain 2HKOs Whiscash (needs to have set up Barrier to survive Earthquake).

Lanturn Lv47 (w/ Magnet): At full health, Lanturn can survive an unboosted Earthquake and OHKO back with Thunder. Lanturn also 2HKOs Wailord and 3HKOs Milotic with Thunder, who can use Recover. Whomever it targets, Lanturn can't defeat more than one of them.

Gorebyss Lv54 (w/ Mystic Water): Rain boosted Hydro Pump 2HKOs Whiscash and Wailord, 3HKOs Gyarados and 4HKOs Milotic. Psychic 3HKOs Tentacruel. Ludicolo is a lost cause.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Conclusions: First I want to address the Mudkip line. My suspicions about its speed were in fact correct. Swampert faces significant speed issues that let it down against Glacia and Wallace if not grinded further. However, Swampert has enough durability to be able to win most battles by itself without potions. Turdterra has also informed me about Swampert's match-up against Steven, which is suboptimal due to Skarmory and Cradily posing significant problems.
Turdterra said:
Skarm is a 3-4HKO with Surf, Claydol and Aggron are OHKOs but be careful as a Light Screen makes them a 2HKO instead. Armaldo is a hard 2HKO with Surf even with Light Screen. Metagross is a 2HKO with EQ. 4HKO if Reflect is up. You are outsped by it too. Cradily is a hard no but as stated, Nevermeltice Blizzard is a 2-3HKO. I can't test that range sadly due to immediate death.
I think that Mudkip is borderline S Tier, and I wouldn't complain if it stays there. Even in the few instances it can't sweep, Swampert can come against almost any enemy (Wallace's Ludicolo being the particular exception) and defeat it by itself, which means that it's an automatic safe option for any battle.

Swampert's good match-ups without rare TMs: Roxanne, Brawly (post-Slateport), Wattson, Flannery, Tate & Liza, Maxie, Archie, Sidney, Phoebe, Drake
Swampert's good match-ups with rare TMs: May (Rustboro, requires Rock Tomb), Winona (requires Ice Beam, not if you beat May at Lilycove first), May (Lilycove, requires Ice Beam), Juan (requires Earthquake, not anymore after the grind)
Swampert's bad match-ups: Brawly (pre-Slateport), May (Route 110), Norman, May (Route 119), Glacia (not anymore after the grind), Wallace

---

Next is Tentacool. From what I could observe, Sludge Bomb is essential long-term. Giga Drain is useful against Whiscash. Barrier allows it to bypass its weakness to Earthquake. What really surprised me though was the speed. Tentacruel is really fast, and that made the difference with Swampert at certain things. However, unlike Swampert, Tentacruel has issues facing Water-types, even with Sludge Bomb. The elephant in the room is that you either endure the Tentacool phase or catch a high leveled Tentacool later. I'd suggest the latter, simply because Tentacool belongs to the Slow experience group, and the non-evolved performance doesn't seem promising. It's kinda like Ralts in that regard. Thus I think Tentacool can stay in B Tier.

midgame Tentacruel's good match-ups without rare TMs: May (Route 119), May (Lilycove), Tate&Liza, Maxie, Archie, Sidney
midgame Tentacruel's good match-ups with rare TMs: Winona, Juan, Wally, Phoebe, Drake midgame
Tentacruel's bad match-ups: Glacia, Wallace

---

The next one is Chinchou. Now, let's get it out of the game: Its start is miserable. There's no way to get around the fact that this is a lv30 Pokémon in best case scenario that belongs to the Slow leveling group. However, even if we train it, it's not very good. Its attacking stats pale in comparison to other Water-types but the most bothersome aspect about it is how slow it is, and it's noticeable in major battles. The way I see it, Lanturn serves more as a wild card to target a select type of enemies. Thunder is really strong and hits any Water-type really hard even in lower levels, and Lanturn resists them on the other hand. This has been useful to me to deal with Crawdaunt, Sealeo and, to a lesser extent, Gyarados after the grind. However, its negative aspects prevent it from being able to sweep even Water-type specialists.

My experience with this mon tells me that it should be E Tier, or even D Tier at most, if we're really generous, but it can't stay at B Tier.

Lanturn's good match-ups: Wally after grinding
Lanturn's bad match-ups: the rest of them

---

The last Pokémon to comment on is Clamperl (Gorebyss). I think that its placement at F Tier is underselling is capabilities. Any battle that hasn't involved a Water-type has been a battle that Gorebyss has been able to win by itself thanks to the combination of Rain Dance, Swift Swim and high Special Attack (and you can add potential access to Hydro Pump, depending on playstyle), and even in those, it can take out on certain targets. Another important aspect about it is its leveling rate. It's the slowest leveling rate until the 30s, which means that Gorebyss skips them by joining at lv35, and then the leveling rate improves until it becomes better than Fast during the 40s.

Now, the ranking is something tricky. I'm not sure it belongs in D Tier, because it would imply that it's similar in value as Lotad, and I don't see that given that Lotad has existed during the whole game, and has probably a better endgame due to Grass-type coverage, allowing it to bypass enemies Gorebyss has trouble with. I think E is the right place for Clamperl (Gorebyss), but whatever tier it ends up, it can't be lower than Chinchou's. Gorebyss has been much better, and that's even at similar levels, where Gorebyss has been able to sweep major battles without potions to begin with.

Gorebyss's good match-ups without rare TMs: Archie
Gorebyss's good match-ups with rare TMs: Wally (doesn't need Rain Dance after grinding), Sidney (doesn't need Rain Dance after grinding), Phoebe
Gorebyss's bad match-ups: Juan, Glacia, Drake (borderline, though, it's the kingdra, not anymore after grinding), Wallace

Pokemon - Emerald Version (USA, Europe)_135.png


______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

there's another thing I want to address

Gardevoir (48lv): Gardevoir outspeeds everyone surprisingly.
this particular phrase got me wondering, is it possible that you share your gardevoir's stats? My Gardevoir had 102 speed at lv47 with 29 speed IVs.
After one Rare Candy, it had 104 speed. If we give it vitamins, it has 107 speed.

Wallace's Tentacruel has 118 speed at least (negative speed nature). You need 108 speed to tie after badge boosts. The takeaway I get from that is that you
a) have a Timid Gardevoir
b) have a 31 speed IVs Gardevoir and gave it vitamins

I want your confirmation and/or clarification on this. I must also clarify that your description doesn't match the experience I had from a 31 IVs SpA (neutral nature) Gardevoir, who needed three hits to defeat most of Wallace's Pokémons (Milotic required four). This would imply that your Gardevoir was Modest alongside 31 IVs. That would contradict Timid Gardevoir.
 
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is it possible that you share your gardevoir's stats? My Gardevoir had 102 speed at lv47 with 29 speed IVs.
After one Rare Candy, it had 104 speed. If we give it vitamins, it has 107 speed.

Wallace's Tentacruel has 118 speed at least (negative speed nature). You need 108 speed to tie after badge boosts. The takeaway I get from that is that you
a) have a Timid Gardevoir
b) have a 31 speed IVs Gardevoir and gave it vitamins

I want your confirmation and/or clarification on this. I must also clarify that your description doesn't match the experience I had from a 31 IVs SpA (neutral nature) Gardevoir, who needed three hits to defeat most of Wallace's Pokémons (Milotic required four). This would imply that your Gardevoir was Modest alongside 31 IVs. That would contradict Timid Gardevoir.
Wallace's Tentacruel has exactly 118 speed. I mentioned my Pokemon's natures and Gardevoir is Calm. No, it does not have 31 speed IVs and I have not given it vitamins. I have a single detail wrong in my data - I forgot to add a word "3HKOs" before "Ludicolo" in the sentence "Psychic 2HKOs Tentacruel and Ludicolo who both 3HKO back with their strongest moves."
Gardevoir's stats:
Gardevoir.jpg

Tentacruel's stats:
Tentacruel.jpg
 
I decided to use Tentacruel instead of Vileplume. This solves the solo-until-Norman problem, but Wattson is still impossible unless I level grind to at least level 32. So I kept my Mudkip on the team and made sure it reached level 16 and learned mud shot just before Wattson.
1:07

Wingull
Level: 14
Stats: 37/15/15/23/15/32
- water gun
- wing attack
- growl
- supersonic

Wingull easily outspeeds and OHKOs both Geodudes. Its water gun 3HKOs Nosepass, and rock tomb consistently does more than 30 damage. The only way Wingull can win is if water gun gets critical hits or if rock tomb misses at least twice.
2:11

Wingull @ Oran berry
Level: 17
Stats: 43/17/18/27/17/38
- water gun
- wing attack
- growl
- supersonic

Tentacool @ silk scarf
Ability: clear body
Level: 14
Stats: 36/19/15/21/36/26
- cut
- poison sting
- supersonic
- constrict

Wingull: Wingull easily defeats Machop. Makuhita's vital throw is just barely a 3HKO, so it becomes a 2HKO if Wingull takes any damage from Machop. Makuhita's Sitrus berry lets it take 2 wing attacks. For some reason, Makuhita will occasionally use bulk up twice, so Wingull wins if the AI is dumb.

Tentacool: Machop 3HKOs Tentacool with low kick, even though it's not very effective. Tentacool's non-STAB cut from its 19 physical attack probably can't 6HKO.
2:48

Wingull @ Oran berry
Level: 19
Stats: 47/19/19/30/19/42
- water gun
- wing attack
- growl
- supersonic

Tentacool @ silk scarf
Ability: clear body
Level: 18
Stats: 43/23/18/26/45/33
- cut
- poison sting
- supersonic
- constrict

Wingull: Wing attack 3HKOs Wingull and 2HKOs Grovyle, and water gun 2HKOs Slugma. May can theoretically win if she never uses status moves, but she's usually to stupid to do that.

Tentacool: Tentacool can usually sweep through Wingull and Slugma. Cut is a 6HKO on Grovyle, and Grovyle outspeeds and 3HKOs with quick attack. I tried grinding Tentacool to level 19 so it can learn acid. Acid can 3HKO Grovyle, but can still usually win the 1v1 with quick attack.
3:34

Wingull @ Oran berry
Level: 24
Stats: 58/23/23/37/23/53
- water gun
- wing attack
- growl
- mist

Tentacool @ Oran berry
Ability: clear body
Level: 22
Stats: 51/28/21/32/54/40
- acid
- cut
- poison sting
- constrict

Wingull: Water gun is a 3HKO on Voltorb. Voltorb's spark is an OHKO on Wingull.

Tentacool: Acid is a 4HKO on Voltorb. Voltorb's spark is a 3HKO on Tentacool.

Unlike my real team members, my underleveled Marshtomp was able to solo Wattson using only 2 soda pops. I don't expect any more opponents to have such a drastic type advantage, so I retired Marshtomp from battle. It is now actualizing its full potential as the best HM slave in the game.
4:52

Pelipper @ Oran berry
Level: 31
Stats: 8541/73/67/53/55
- water gun
- wing attack
- shock wave
- protect

Tentacool @ Oran berry
Ability: clear body
Level: 29
Stats: 64/36/28/43/71/52
- bubble beam
- secret power
- acid
- cut
 

Merritt

literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
After more than 3 and a half years, this thread is closed and the list is complete. Thank you to all the many, many contributors to this project through the various ups, downs, and periods of inactivity. It's been a privilege to run this list.

Final movements:

Solrock rises from D to C
Lunatone rises from D to C
Gulpin rises from D to C
Clamperl (Gorebyss) rises from F to E

Chinchou drops from B to C
Roselia drops from D to E

Good arguments for Ralts were put forward on both sides. Thank you for generally remaining civil.

Ralts tally, generally excluding the posts prior to thread closure announcement except to help indicate how the user leaned.

A (includes B nomination) - xator, ceal, turdterra, drumstick, IAR, longfellow 6
S - speedholes, volt, texas, punchshroom, ttr, kurona, celeb 7

Ralts will remain S


The writeup thread will go up tomorrow. Requesting DHR-107 or Codraroll to lock this thread.
 
After more than 3 and a half years, this thread is closed and the list is complete. Thank you to all the many, many contributors to this project through the various ups, downs, and periods of inactivity. It's been a privilege to run this list.

Final movements:

Solrock rises from D to C
Lunatone rises from D to C
Gulpin rises from D to C
Clamperl (Gorebyss) rises from F to E

Chinchou drops from B to C
Roselia drops from D to E

Good arguments for Ralts were put forward on both sides. Thank you for generally remaining civil.

Ralts tally, generally excluding the posts prior to thread closure announcement except to help indicate how the user leaned.

A (includes B nomination) - xator, ceal, turdterra, drumstick, IAR, longfellow 6
S - speedholes, volt, texas, punchshroom, ttr, kurona, celeb 7

Ralts will remain S


The writeup thread will go up tomorrow. Requesting DHR-107 or Codraroll to lock this thread.
Out of curiosity, didn't DHR state it wasn't S too. Meaning it would be A on his end making the tally 7 vs 7?
 

Merritt

literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Out of curiosity, didn't DHR state it wasn't S too. Meaning it would be A on his end making the tally 7 vs 7?
Ralts tally, generally excluding the posts prior to thread closure announcement except to help indicate how the user leaned.
As DHR hasn't posted in this thread in well over a year it'd be an inconsistent decision on my part to include him and not the other people who've provided input in the past, both for and against S.

Thread is closed, not going to continue this.
 
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As DHR hasn't posted in this thread in well over a year it'd be an inconsistent decision on my part to include him and not the other people who've provided input in the past, both for and against S.
You do know that also excluded any past noms too? If you decide to exclude any and all talks prior, then you should be JUST counting the ones done AFTER the decision. It seems you kept past noms but since DHR decided to stop posting, you just.....toss his nom out? That doesn't seem to make an sense really. It should still be tallied regardless. Also Thread is very much still open.

If you count his nom, it becomes 7 vs 7. It then goes to the TL's decision on placement but seeing as you've ignored the clear issues of it's inability to function like an S should, we know your answer. I'm out. It's upsetting to see that Ralts wasn't put down in A and I'll take the L on this matter.
 
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Merritt

literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
With this, are the write-ups going to be compiled in another thread?
Yes. I'm going to take the time to bring over the writeups from earlier in the thread, though they're liable to need at least some reworking (usually to be more concise).
 

DHR-107

Robot from the Future
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributor
Orange Islands
Not convinced on your decision to tier Ralts in that way considering its so borderline, but it is your choice. It's clearly the weakest S nomination ever. And I wasn't aware that I needed to post again in order to say so.

Either way I'm happy this has come to an end and we can get write ups started.
 
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