Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
Putting a Pokemon in a position to fail is not an adequate way to test it, especially not when it has the capability to perform significantly better as has been evidenced by past tests.
Hear hear!

I can understand something like training Pokemon based on exp points and not levels (though I also understand and am willing to accept the counterargument), but this is literally setting 'mons up to fail. You do not do that, especially when it's so easy to make them do much better.
 

Merritt

no comment
is a Tournament Directoris a Site Content Manageris a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Dedicated Tournament Host
Head TD
Roxanne is a bad matchup for Torchic (who can evolve into Combusken)...since when?
Calling it a bad matchup is somewhat exaggerating it. What it's not, however, is a good matchup since getting to evolution will absolutely require additional grinding and taking away experience from any other team members.

Honestly would call it neutral since Combusken does take out Roxanne quite easily but it's a less than ideal required investment.
 
Calling it a bad matchup is somewhat exaggerating it. What it's not, however, is a good matchup since getting to evolution will absolutely require additional grinding and taking away experience from any other team members.

Honestly would call it neutral since Combusken does take out Roxanne quite easily but it's a less than ideal required investment.
How high does Torchic generally get if we share experience with one other teammate?

Texas Cloverleaf
 
Like 13-14? It CAN get to 16, but you hurt the other teammate too much.
So just two levels away from evolution? You could literally train Torchic two levels in the wild (I know y'all don't like that but in this case it's an option and a feasible one at that) and then kick Roxanne's butt. At any rate, I'm willing to accept it as a neutral matchup.

Brawly on the other hand being a bad matchup...wut?

Soloing until Roxanne, the starter will not evolve if you don't fight optional trainers/wilds. It's maybe 20 minutes to check this yourself.

To be more exact, you're seeing probably 13 by Roxanne, maybe 14.
So fight optional trainers then? Even better than I thought.
 
So just two levels away from evolution? You could literally train Torchic two levels in the wild (I know y'all don't like that but in this case it's an option and a feasible one at that) and then kick Roxanne's butt. At any rate, I'm willing to accept it as a neutral matchup.

Brawly on the other hand being a bad matchup...wut?



So fight optional trainers then? Even better than I thought.
Again, test to get your answers. We don't generally train on wilds period. And at this point in the game, you are spending a good chunk of time even getting to 16.

Brawly has Bulk Up, you don't. Plain and simple.

I repeat, test yourself instead of questioning every little thing. Saves you time from typing this up and more importantly, our time in having to even address these.
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
When I made my S Rank Ralts nomination, I didn't even take Double Team that much into consideration at the time. I mostly got by most important boss fights with X Defend/Reflect and more importantly X Speed use to pretty much stomp out most any boss that would prove troubling. Perhaps it's time I detail my Ralts' boss matchups in both versions in full.

Roxanne
Roxanne is obviously not a fight that Ralts can solo easily at all, but Ralts has the tools to considerably slow down Roxanne if your team is not equipped to deal with hers (such as underleveled/no starter or no Shroomish runs). A single Double Team can affect Roxanne's ability to hit you with her strongest attacks, allowing you to sneak in enough Growls to neuter her damage output and even potentially sneak in a few Confusions once you're done with that. This process is made easier if she spams Harden and Tackle as she often does. If you're really lucky, Oran Berry Ralts can even beat Nosepass 1v1, though I obviously wouldn't recommend going out of your way to do this.

Brawly
In my experiences, even an underleved Ralts (albeit not like 5-6 levels underleveled; Ralts can get more than enough experience to catch up via gym trainers) can solo vs Brawly without too much trouble. RS Brawly is easier since Makuhita doesn't have Vital Throw to threaten major damage, though Machop can potentially pose issues with Leer. Emerald Brawly needs to be handled with care, especially if Ralts had eaten a Seismic Toss from Machop beforehand. What you do is spam Growl vs Makuhita to constantly keep it at -1 or -2 Atk while negating its Bulk Ups and Confusion it down. Volt-Ikazuchi even suggested the novel strategy of teaching Ralts the Thief TM to steal Makuhita's Sitrus and basically guarantee the one-mon sweep.

Rival2
You're not expected to get Kirlia and especially not Calm Mind by this point, so Ralts can't really go for any sweeping here. Ralts can attempt to set up Double Teams vs the rival's Wailmer (RS) & Fire-types (both versions) so you could at least do some lasting chip vs the rest of their Pokemon.

Wattson
Yeah this is rough; this can either be an easy-boosting session or a complete flop depending on how smart and/or lucky the AI decides to be that day. Synchronize + Cheri Berry helps significantly in setting up vs RS Wattson's Magnemite lead and should give you a decent avenue to overpower the rest of his team. Emerald Wattson's lead Voltorb is a lot riskier to set up on, but it may also potentially give you free setup turns by missing Rollout or even Selfdestruct lol. Emerald Electrike is a safer target to set up on, although you probably should kill it quick before it gets in too many Leers/Howls. Highly inconsistent, though not impossible, which is still more than can be said for a lot of mons vs Wattson at this point.

Maxie/Archie (Mt. Chimney)
Archie is not a good matchup for non-Psychic Kirlia at any angle since even the Golbat can do a number vs you. Ruby Maxie isn't much better, but you may be able to squeeze a win vs Camerupt if the AI is dumb/unlucky enough. Emerald Maxie's Zubat can give you a window to Calm Mind sweep him.

Flannery
RS Flannery is basically free for Kirlia; even if you somehow don't have Psychic yet, you can easily build up to +4 Calm Minds (and even a couple of Double teams while you're at it) on the Slugma with a Super Potion or two, and wreck her from there. Emerald Flannery's lead Numel is not safe to set up on since Magnitude may fuk you up at a moment's notice, but you can still set up on her Slugma as well as her Camerupt (if your Kirlia is female).

Norman
Let me just preface this right now: do not expect Kirlia to do much of anything vs RS Norman. If Slaking isn't pulverizing Kirlia turn 1 with Facade, it's disrupting your setup with Yawn or Faint Attack. RS Kirlia requires X Defends, X Speeds, and an unreasonable amount of luck and healing items to even hope to sweep RS Norman, though Gardevoir will have much less trouble accomplishing this feat. Getting Gardevoir at this point is not too unfeasible since the desert offers decent experience as well as a Rare Candy to give Kirlia the levels it needs, though this is such a detour that I don't count this as a plus for the matchup. Thankfully Emerald Norman is not as hellish of an experience for Kirlia since Spinda doesn't hit like a freight train, though Teeter Dance could still prove annoying, and you still need the X Defend, X Speeds and/or Double Teams, and healing items to expect a sweep. Easily Kirlia's worst matchup in the game, though the fact that it's still possible to sweep the fight as Kirlia speaks volumes to its potency.

Winona
Winona is pretty free for the most part, and you can even justify keeping Shock Wave for this fight since it can easily snipe her Double Team Swellow and Sand-Attack Skarmory if you choose to set up on those. Pelipper is the easiest target in this fight to set up Calm Minds on, but RS Swellow and Emerald Tropius are easy as well, and you could even try to sweep Emerald Winona immediately if her Swablu doesn't click Perish Song by the time you're done setting up.

Tate&Liza
RS Tate&Liza are kind of a joke in general to be honest since you can just double down the only real threat in Lunatone, and even if not Gardevoir can easily match Calm Minds, overpower Lunatone with Thunderbolts, and Blue Flute whenever it lands a Hypnosis. Emerald Tate&Liza requires more strategy but otherwise it's much the same in how you can just Calm Mind your way to victory; this time your main goal is to kill the Claydol fast before it gets to use Earthquake/Light Screen. Alternatively, Gardevoir could use Double Team or ideally Reflect to slow down Claydol's (aka the entire team's only) attempts at hurting it.

Maxie/Archie (Magma Hideout & Seafloor Cavern)
These fights more or less play out the same so I'll just group these altogether. The Mightyena can no longer threaten you with damage since lol unSTAB Take Down, instead what you have to worry about are Scary Face and Roar, since Scary Face can let their ace outspeed you (though Sharpedo might outspeed you anyway), and Roar can end a Calm Mind sweep. If you don't feel like tussling with Mightyena t1, Gardevoir can resort to OHKOing Crobat and Sharpedo provided confusion doesn't get in the way (Persim Berry is appreciated here, and Tracing Crobat's Inner Focus is also nice for preventing Bite flinches), while Camerupt can still be 1v1ed.

Wallace/Juan
This is super free; all you have to do is use X Speed + Yellow Flute to ensure Luvdisc's Sweet Kiss doesn't interrupt your boosting and you can sweep from turn 1 with as little as 2 Calm Minds (though you ideally want ~4 Calm Minds for Juan to OHKO his Double Team Kingdra). This fight is even easier with a female Gardevoir since you can block Attract as well.

Sidney
Don't bother setting up on the Mightyena; nothing sets up on Sidney's Mightyena effectively. However, the Shiftry is free pickings, so just X Speed once and max out Calm Minds to wipe out his team, hopefully without burning too much Thunderbolt PP when hitting his Double Team Shiftry. Cacturne may also get in the way of a clean sweep with Cotton Spore.

Phoebe
This is also really tough for Gardevoir to sweep, though this is the case for any Psychic-type not named Girafarig. Your best bets at sweeping are either hoping her lead Dusclops never clicks Curse as you set up 2 (or even 3) Calm Minds, or use Reflect + X Defend strats to try and set up on Sableye, though RS Phoebe's Sableye has Attract so again, female Gardevoir is ideal. That said, even if you do get Cursed by her lead Dusclops amidst your setup, you can at least try and take down about 3 of her mons before going down. I will not blame people for not using Gardevoir for this fight.

Glacia
Glacia is a pretty comfortable matchup for Gardevoir; Calm Minds can buffer against her lead Glacia pretty well especially if it wastes turns not attacking, and Sealeo can only annoy Gardevoir with Body Slam paralysis (though Synchronize can turn this into your advantage) or if it Encores your Calm Mind just as you're ready to OHKO everything on her team. If the Sealeo starts Ice Balling you should probably kill it quick before it literally snowballs. The only threat in this fight onwards is her Shadow Ball Glalie, but if you don't manage to already outspeed it naturally, set up an X Speed beforehand.

Drake
The Shelgon doesn't prove the easiest thing to set up on for Gardevoir since Double-Edge stings and Rock Tomb forces more X Speeds for a clean sweep. You can use either Double Team or Reflect to help ease the Double-Edge pressure as you boost up, and since Shelgon likes to spam Protect often, this shouldn't be too hard.

Steven
You could set up on the lead Skarm with Pecha Berry, but the ideal setup target in this fight would be Cradily, though be expected to expend some Full Restores to heal off Sludge Bomb poison. Much like Shelgon, resort to Double Team/Reflect to ease the pressure during setup. You absolutely need +6 to have a chance of OHKOing Metagross (don't be surprised if you do not), but even Claydol could potentially get in your way by tanking a +6 hit and setting up Light Screen, ruining your chances to beat Metagross. Again, tough but not impossible fight.

Wallace
Wailord should be easy enough to set up on (especially if you have Reflect), but you do want an X Speed so Tentacruel doesn't get to smack you with Sludge Bomb. The only other threat in this fight is Whiscash which could potentially slow you down with Amnesia + Full Restore should you fail to OHKO and hit back hard with Earthquake, but other than that it's smooth sailing.
 
Last edited:
To be fair to both Garde and Xator's level for it, last time I used it I was at 45 (because I had a six-mon party) at the start of the E4 and it still performed really well, sweeping both Glacia and Drake. Admittedly I did have Quick Claw because of its Brave nature, but even with something like Sitrus it should do decently well against the dragons due to having Reflect (and in Emerald you can technically switch out and Trace Flygon's Levitate if you had too many Speed drops). I'm more surprised at how he felt it was unreliable against Wallace tho, since it seems it should perform like a slower Zam. That should definitely count as a positive matchup, unlike in RS where Metagross and Claydol could survive even the +6 hit.

Regarding Combusken, in my dead Emerald playthrough I tried getting it before Roxanne and I could barely do so with switch training inside the gym, so I especially don't count it as realistic when you have a Ralts. However I dunno why people are calling Brawly a bad matchup, it wins at level 18 simply because Double Kick is too strong for Makuhita. And again, if you're underleveled for him it's on you, not on the birb. Heck it might still win at a lower level, but then it depends on natures and such. So yea, Roxanne = bad and Brawly = good. Also I'd say Flannery = good too even without Dig but I can't be certain because I didn't get that far. Really its biggest problems are Tate & Liza and Drake, plus Champion Wallace in Emerald.

I'd really like to contribute more experience so I hope I can revive my run after I finish the Crystal one.
 
When I made my S Rank Ralts nomination, I didn't even take Double Team that much into consideration at the time. I mostly got by most important boss fights with X Defend/Reflect and more importantly X Speed use to pretty much stomp out most any boss that would prove troubling.
I know x items aren't banned in this list, but using them as a positive for a pokemon especially rubs me the wrong way. X items strike me as problamatic for a couple reasons: they're a very slippery-slope kind of concept where you can give any amount of x item to make up for their natural weaknesses and make them succeed when they probably shouldn't. There's not a lot stopping me from applying the x speed logic to any mid-to-low speed breaker (such as Blaziken, Breloom, Hariyama, Absol, etc) to inflate their performance and nom them for higher ranks than they probably should be at, as well as x defenses for frail sweepers or x attacks for mons with no access to a boosting move. Hell, you could theoretically take any low tier mon like Weezing or Mighteyena and just pump them full of x items until they sweep a fight they otherwise wouldn't. The other thing about x items is that, well, they're items. Assuming we're going by the unwritten rule that heavy item usage is discouraged (Texas said this more or less a couple pages ago), what makes x items more special than using potions? If a well-timed hyper potion can enable a sweep the same way an x speed or x defense can, why is one considered a positive for a mon while the other is considered a negative? Except in the most dire of circumstances, item usage should really be discouraged in any capacity (barring hold items), and if your S rank relies on them for battles (like you imply with Norman, Juan, Sydney, and Phoebe) then that should cast doubt on its current placement.

(Small addendum as I thought of this after writing the bulk of my post, but Double team should be discouraged for the same reason I talked about with x items, theoretically anything can get to +6 evasion and just get hyper lucky. Relying on pure rng to win fights should be penalized).
 
So fight optional trainers then? Even better than I thought.
I want to make clear I battled every available trainer available before Roxanne's battle, including the ones in Route 116 and I was pretty far from Lv16, as my logs indicate, and it could have potentially been worse had I managed experience differently (getting Abra before facing optional trainers on the way to Petalburg, for example, which is possible but I decided against it). The only way I can see Combusken getting to Lv16 before Roxanne is if it's your only Pokémon, and that's already restrictive to your team composition, don't you think?

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I mostly got by most important boss fights with X Defend/Reflect and more importantly X Speed use to pretty much stomp out most any boss that would prove troubling.
Don't you think that's already enough argument to not put it in S Tier? Think about it, the definition of even A Tier describes specifically:

"Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a lot of opponents and are not very reliant on items to succeed"

You're suggesting to use X items on each of the final encounters, as well as Juan (I didn't face speed issues with him though) and even Norman. I don't think that's not being very reliant on items to suceed.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

However I dunno why people are calling Brawly a bad matchup, it wins at level 18 simply because Double Kick is too strong for Makuhita. And again, if you're underleveled for him it's on you, not on the birb. Heck it might still win at a lower level, but then it depends on natures and such. So yea, Roxanne = bad and Brawly = good.
In my post I specifically state it's Combusken before going to Slateport, after having battled every trainer up to that point. Once Makuhita uses Bulk Up, Combusken doesn't 4HKO anymore with Double Kick, and Makuhita 2HKOs back with Vital Throw. I also stated in my logs that a post-Slateport Combusken (Lv20) wouldn't have issues against Brawly. I guess that you could add Brawly (post-Slateport) in the list of good match-ups, but I think that considering the boss fight before going to Slateport should be considered, too, especially since other Pokémon (for example Alakazam) can perform well there.

I don't know what the exact policy on this particular aspect is, though. I wrote logs for both just in case.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
My dude you ran Gardevoir into the league 5-6 levels below the rest of your team and well below the levels of normal tests for the Elite Four. I don't know what you were expecting, and I really don't know how you can expect to draw the conclusion that Ralts shouldn't be S tier when you're neglecting it to this degree.
I don't know how I have been neglecting it, Texas, especially since I have trained it the same amount as I did its teammates. That it is below the rest of my team is the natural result of its leveling rate. That it requires (much) more training than what I gave the others to not be "neglected" is an argument against Ralts.

Texas Cloverleaf said:
edit: to say nothing of strategy, setting up CMs and DTs against Mightyena is the worst possible strategy since Shiftry comes in right after and only has Extrasensory to touch you, e.g. free set up.

To run some calcs on what's the chance of the first attempt happening: Assuming -1 accuracy from Mightyena's Sand-Attack and +6 avoid from Shiftry's Double Team, you have 24.75% chance of hitting with an attack. You have 10 tries because otherwise you run out of PP for everyone else. With cumulative binomial distribution, the added chance of no hit, one hit and two hits landing is 53.311345104%. This is not reliable. This is without putting into account other variables such as Swagger (this is what happens in the second attempt), which can end up defeating you, or Torment, allowing Absol a free hit.

Texas Cloverleaf said:
Frankly at every point of your test you put Ralts/Kirlia/Gardevoir in the worst possible position to succeed and your impression of its performance matches exactly to that intent. I appreciate your testing of the psychics but you've really done a disservice to the Ralts line with your methodology here.
I tried the strategies described in your logs, so other than the leveling rate, I don't think I follow on why you think I put it in the worst possible position.

You seem to have misinterpreted my post. I said rather clearly that the level 46-48 range can beat the league but generally relies heavily on item use and that I try to test at level 50.

Putting something at level 46 for an E4 test is outright setting it up for failure, no less in comparison to mons 5-7 levels higher than it.
That's however not the case in your logs. Your Gardevoir is barely ahead of mine (only 285 experience points), and yet you used those logs as the basis of your nomination to S Tier. If you argued for Gardevoir Lv50 as having an S Tier performance in the endgame, that's what you should have probably presented in your argumentation. Moreover, my Gardevoir didn't perform as an S Tier in spite of matching levels of your tests.

Texas Cloverleaf said:
I don't want to get into an argument about methodology, suffice to say he's not the first to approach testing by equal experience, each time it has been brought up in multiple threads it has been shouted down as something unreasonable to expect for a typical user, by and large people raise by roughly equal levels.
I don't think that a casual player should play like this either. I can safely state that I don't play like that casually because I generally don't use more than one Pokémon. However, I decided to spread experience like this because it's more representative, to me, of the Pokémon's properties, and the leveling rate is something noticeable - I remember vividly from when I was a child that Ralts needed more training than the others to level up and keep on par, well before I was aware of leveling rates. Moreover, if this list is about efficiency and you're suggesting Pokémon to a casual player who just wants to get through with the game, a Pokémon that requires more training to keep up is not what I consider optimal.

I had hoped that his early underleveling would be corrected for the E4 and I'm very disappointed it was not. Putting a Pokemon in a position to fail is not an adequate way to test it, especially not when it has the capability to perform significantly better as has been evidenced by past tests.
You're implying I deliberately set out to make Gardevoir lose every match-up.

As for past tests, I'm not convinced by this. Your Gardevoir had essentially the same level as mine, and my Gardevoir didn't match the S Tier performance you argued. Moreover, in your logs you generally mention Potion usage, which doesn't match the tier you have been stating. For instance .

The other tests on this thread with logs that I found on Ralts were Infernape2018's
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ame-tier-list-discussion.3609130/post-8117583

superstriker66's
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ame-tier-list-discussion.3609130/post-8183119

LordDirtyO's
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ame-tier-list-discussion.3609130/post-8502091

and Punchshroom's, which are on this page.

From these logs, LordDirtyO's nomination to S is questionable because they presented in their logs significant performance issues towards the final bosses, as well as significant issues during the first half of the game. Infernape2018's doesn't present a full portrayal of Gardevoir's performance against the final bosses because it's used against Glacia and Wallace exclusively, and for the latter it mentions Potion usage again. Moreover, their logs present an inconsistent performance, particularly against Wattson. Punchshroom's logs present reliance on X items. Superstriker66's doesn't provide any information on Gardevoir's endgame performance in spite of being Lv50, which can only give me the impression that it left unused because it wasn't the most optimal choice. Besides, superstriker66 argues that Wattson and Flannery require Potion abuse, which is also not what's expected from a positive match-up.

The impression I get by reading them is precisely the opposite, which is that Ralts needs item support to be able to sweep reliably. That's not significantly better. Moreover, Infernape2018's levels match mine, and LordDirtyO's are even lower.

The other opinions that I found in this thread don't provide detailed logs and don't show much in detail what actually happens. However, I can comment on the following:

WaterBomb
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ame-tier-list-discussion.3609130/post-7679661
Here WaterBomb advocates on A Tier. I don't agree with their assessment on Ralts's lategame performance but they don't provide details.

Kurona
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ame-tier-list-discussion.3609130/post-8472361
Here Kurona describes on very broad terms their progress on Ralts. Moreover, Kurona describes the Kirlia phase as barely an improvement on Ralts.

Ernesto
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ame-tier-list-discussion.3609130/post-8618072
Here Ernesto assesses Ralts's performance as S Tier just on the basis on the Gardevoir phase, and clearly admits that the first half of the game is inconvenient for Ralts. I disagree with his evaluation of Ralts's lategame. Moreover Ernesto doesn't seem convinced on Ralts as an S Tier mon right now according to recent posts.

Punchshroom's original S Tier nomination didn't include logs, but I'm bringing it up because it came up when Ralts was risen to S Tier
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ame-tier-list-discussion.3609130/post-8105178
Punchshroom here describes a contradiction with their logs. He argues that the speed difference with Alakazam isn't as significant because of the durabililty advantage - however they resort to X Defend or X Speed to avoid dealing with these issues and recognize that the match-ups are suboptimal.

Ultimately, the general impression that I'm getting is that the agreement on Ralts as an S Tier is because that's what's been said, not because their own arguments are convincing.
 

Texas Cloverleaf

This user has a custom title
is a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
my interpretation of this post is that long story short we disagree on how to assess something as S tier vs A, meaning where we draw the line, and evidently yours is higher than mine, fair enough. don't agree with your negative assessments of the line at all but i don't see either of us shifting on our views at this point
 
In my post I specifically state it's Combusken before going to Slateport, after having battled every trainer up to that point. Once Makuhita uses Bulk Up, Combusken doesn't 4HKO anymore with Double Kick, and Makuhita 2HKOs back with Vital Throw. I also stated in my logs that a post-Slateport Combusken (Lv20) wouldn't have issues against Brawly. I guess that you could add Brawly (post-Slateport) in the list of good match-ups, but I think that considering the boss fight before going to Slateport should be considered, too, especially since other Pokémon (for example Alakazam) can perform well there.

I don't know what the exact policy on this particular aspect is, though. I wrote logs for both just in case.
I wasn't sure if I should reply to your post because the bulk of it is unrelated and my comment wasn't directed at you (but rather the resulting discussion) since I don't particularly disagree with your tests on Brawly. However I'd just like to mention that it Torchic is at level 14 when you catch Abra—not unreasonable—it actually takes less experience to get it to 18 than Abra to evolve, so if you can get Zam before Slateport naturally you could get level 18 Combusken too since you'll have to switch train.
But anyway I don't think there's anything wrong with needing to go to Slateport, after all Makuhita is level 19 so it's not like you're going out of your way to beat it. Sure something like Dustox can beat it at level 13, but that's beside the point. Both Ralts and Ken have positive matchups there, Zam just has a more positive one.

Level 14 Torchic = 1612 exp. to reach level 18 (3798 - 1612) = 2186
Level 7 Abra = 236 exp. to reach level 16 (2535 - 236) = 2299

If Torchic was level 13 like in your test then it's (3798 - 1261) = 2537, so Abra wins there


Also I think the conclusion for X items should be that if the Pokemon requires more than one, then that matchup is questionable at best. After all we're talking about full sweeps, so it's not much different from a Full Restore where it can be needed but the mon is still doing most of the job.
 
Kurona
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ame-tier-list-discussion.3609130/post-8472361
Here Kurona describes on very broad terms their progress on Ralts. Moreover, Kurona describes the Kirlia phase as barely an improvement on Ralts.
I won't try and defend my posts on the topic too much as I didn't provide logs and don't remember too much of how things went, making it very unreliable -- the only things I'm willing to say with 100% confidence are my opinions on Golem's performance taking a sharp turn down around Winona and Kecleon being next to useless. You're right that my run here was on very broad terms, and far too casual to be of much help.

But I think you are slightly cherrypicking my saying "Kirlia is barely an improvement on Ralts", when I also said in that same statement that Ralts was very very good, and in my very next post said that Kirlia's flaws were negligible. My post on Kirlia being barely an improvement were my first impressions -- notice that I had only just beaten Wattson when I wrote that post. Like my first impressions of Kecleon not being complete and utter garbage, I misjudged Kirlia's effectiveness; it's far from amazing but I still found it very capable of putting in work where it needs to and it's not too long until Calm Mind makes it a beast.

I'm again not gonna say my run here was very useful but I think it's slightly disingenuous to take one out of context line to support your argument when I later contradicted that line.
 
I want to make clear I battled every available trainer available before Roxanne's battle, including the ones in Route 116 and I was pretty far from Lv16, as my logs indicate, and it could have potentially been worse had I managed experience differently (getting Abra before facing optional trainers on the way to Petalburg, for example, which is possible but I decided against it). The only way I can see Combusken getting to Lv16 before Roxanne is if it's your only Pokémon, and that's already restrictive to your team composition, don't you think?
Thanks for clarifying! I'd argue it could also potentially have been better - you yourself said Combusken could make it to L16 before Roxanne if solo.

Is it restrictive? Probably, but it's also the early game where you have relatively few Pokemon choices that are actually good. Your Pokemon will have all the other gym badges to catch up, focusing on Torchic for a grand total of one badge doesn't seem like a problem to me.

I think it should be a neutral matchup as someone stated.
 
Don't you think that's already enough argument to not put it in S Tier? Think about it, the definition of even A Tier describes specifically:

"Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a lot of opponents and are not very reliant on items to succeed"

You're suggesting to use X items on each of the final encounters, as well as Juan (I didn't face speed issues with him though) and even Norman. I don't think that's not being very reliant on items to suceed.
That's also because apparently, Punchshroom tried to outright sweep every boss, which isn't really feasible all the time.

Granted, early Calm Mind gives Kirlia/Gardevoir a better chance of doing that than most, but even then, there are some battles that just aren't really sweepable. Wattson being the best example of that.

Kirlia/Gardevoir can at least contribute to most major battles, with many of them being sweepable.

On the other hand, I don't believe X Items should move the needle. It neither needs them nor do I agree with their use to begin with.

I want to make clear I battled every available trainer available before Roxanne's battle, including the ones in Route 116 and I was pretty far from Lv16, as my logs indicate, and it could have potentially been worse had I managed experience differently (getting Abra before facing optional trainers on the way to Petalburg, for example, which is possible but I decided against it). The only way I can see Combusken getting to Lv16 before Roxanne is if it's your only Pokémon, and that's already restrictive to your team composition, don't you think?
Agreed. Torchic flat out loses to Roxanne, and Combusken is probably not even available for that battle. I also disagree with running that long with a solo starter, especially since it'd require every drop of Exp available to evolve.
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Don't you think that's already enough argument to not put it in S Tier? Think about it, the definition of even A Tier describes specifically:

"Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a lot of opponents and are not very reliant on items to succeed"

You're suggesting to use X items on each of the final encounters, as well as Juan (I didn't face speed issues with him though) and even Norman. I don't think that's not being very reliant on items to suceed.
Yeah item abuse (be it healing items or X items) is practically a requirement for nearly any full team sweep to be possible. Even undisputed S Rank Swampert will be reliant on items if it wants to clean sweep the post-Surf bosses. If anything, any post-Surf clean sweep that can be done without much/any item abuse should be more notable. For example, Persim Berry + Mach Punch Breloom has a good chance to sweep Sidney on turn 1 if he Swaggers into your Bulk Up, whereas Girafarig can spam Calm Minds on one of RS Phoebe's Banettes and wipe her out.

Even in the context of item spam, Gardevoir typically requires less items than most since its moveset and bulk are plenty sufficient, such as its Thunderbolt access meaning it needs less Calm Minds to secure wins vs Water-typed or Psychic-resistant bosses, or its bulk letting it consume less healing items during its boosting phase. I didn't even need X items in most of the fights that I used it in (like Juan, Drake, and Steven); I just acknowledged that each X Defend / X Speed can save me 1 or 2 Hyper Potions in the long run, which is obviously more efficient in terms of both time and cost. Even if you don't try to item abuse/sweep with Gardevoir (though you definitely should if given the opportunity because why wouldn't you), it's still more than capable of trading blows in a neutral fight.

I will admit this though, most of my success with Gardevoir have been on 2/3 mon teams; if a larger team size's inability to properly accommodate for Gardevoir's slow growth rate becomes enough of a factor to contend against its S Rank placement, I wouldn't argue against it too much since I don't have too much testing in that regard, though I will still insist that Gardevoir is superior than every other A Rank mon at least.
 
Agreed. Torchic flat out loses to Roxanne, and Combusken is probably not even available for that battle. I also disagree with running that long with a solo starter, especially since it'd require every drop of Exp available to evolve.
Torchic starters are aware Combusken exists, however, and may opt to use her if their other teammates can't pick up the slack (e.g. if their other Pokemon is, say, a Taillow, Zigzagoon, Poochyena, Whismur, Seedot, or Dustox). If you don't have a Water-type yet due to wanting something that arrives later like Walrein, Gyarados, or Sharpedo or a Shroomish - and I'm not confident in Wingull's matchup against Roxanne - you might need one.

And if they are not aware, they should be made aware that possibility exists. You can mention that it's not super efficient or whatever, but the fact remains you should not be telling people their Pokemon sucks when with a relative few levels they can wipe the floor with Roxanne.
 
Torchic starters are aware Combusken exists, however, and may opt to use her if their other teammates can't pick up the slack (e.g. if their other Pokemon is, say, a Taillow, Zigzagoon, Poochyena, Whismur, Seedot, or Dustox). If you don't have a Water-type yet due to wanting something that arrives later like Walrein, Gyarados, or Sharpedo or a Shroomish - and I'm not confident in Wingull's matchup against Roxanne - you might need one.

And if they are not aware, they should be made aware that possibility exists. You can mention that it's not super efficient or whatever, but the fact remains you should not be telling people their Pokemon sucks when with a relative few levels they can wipe the floor with Roxanne.
Wingull can sweep but it’s really RNG dependent.


Wingull (13): This is honestly not advised and only done due to AI Stupidity. I originally tried to use Supersonic to buy some time and get free Water Guns. That did not work. First you have to hit it, second they need to stay confused. Round 2 I opted for Growl. You can live a Tomb and bank on a miss, but its a 2HKO regardless if it uses Tomb or Throw. Please note you are outsped by Nosepass after one Tomb. Third run was weird. Geodude is dispatched by Water Gun as an OHKO. Nosepass came out and proceeded to Harden? It kept doing it to and I got the kill EVEN with both Potions used.


This list is fairly old now so I don’t think it needs to mentioned that Combusken can be obtained Pre-Roxanne (pretty stupid to have it at this point as we’ve pointed out you need to solo with a starter). I also think you underestimate the amount of time it takes to get 2-3 levels to evolve if you have another member if you opt to grind on wilds. There isn’t a lot of outgoing XP around that point unless it’s a trainer fight by which point that upper area is how you get to 13-14 (with teammate) or Combusken (if solo’d).
 
Wingull can sweep but it’s really RNG dependent.


Wingull (13): This is honestly not advised and only done due to AI Stupidity. I originally tried to use Supersonic to buy some time and get free Water Guns. That did not work. First you have to hit it, second they need to stay confused. Round 2 I opted for Growl. You can live a Tomb and bank on a miss, but its a 2HKO regardless if it uses Tomb or Throw. Please note you are outsped by Nosepass after one Tomb. Third run was weird. Geodude is dispatched by Water Gun as an OHKO. Nosepass came out and proceeded to Harden? It kept doing it to and I got the kill EVEN with both Potions used.


This list is fairly old now so I don’t think it needs to mentioned that Combusken can be obtained Pre-Roxanne (pretty stupid to have it at this point as we’ve pointed out you need to solo with a starter). I also think you underestimate the amount of time it takes to get 2-3 levels to evolve if you have another member if you opt to grind on wilds. There isn’t a lot of outgoing XP around that point unless it’s a trainer fight by which point that upper area is how you get to 13-14 (with teammate) or Combusken (if solo’d).
Exactly my point. I would not recommend using Wingull either.

This list is fairly old, but that doesn't stop you guys from going through it and retesting mons, so that's not a solid argument. It takes hardly any time to grind in the wild or skill, you just button-mash your way to victory against weaker wild mons until you're up to par. Telling Torchic trainers they're screwed if they don't get a Pokemon they may not necessarily want - most of the Water-types at this stage aren't exemplar and I'd far rather wait for Sharpedo/Lanturn/Starmie/Gyarados/Crawdaunt myself - doesn't seem justifiable. Time is the price you need to pay for it, but it's not like you can't and it's not like you're giving up something really big in the interim. The anti-grinding shtick y'all have, while admittedly justified a lot of the time, really isn't the moment you decide you don't even want to tell people they have a way through by training a bit harder.
 
Exactly my point. I would not recommend using Wingull either.

This list is fairly old, but that doesn't stop you guys from going through it and retesting mons, so that's not a solid argument. It takes hardly any time to grind in the wild or skill, you just button-mash your way to victory against weaker wild mons until you're up to par. Telling Torchic trainers they're screwed if they don't get a Pokemon they may not necessarily want - most of the Water-types at this stage aren't exemplar and I'd far rather wait for Sharpedo/Lanturn/Starmie/Gyarados/Crawdaunt myself - doesn't seem justifiable. Time is the price you need to pay for it, but it's not like you can't and it's not like you're giving up something really big in the interim. The anti-grinding shtick y'all have, while admittedly justified a lot of the time, really isn't the moment you decide you don't even want to tell people they have a way through by training a bit harder.
The Torchic retest was because someone didn’t really agree with the nom. It’s expected since the thread is closing on Feb 14th.

Pelipper is friggin amazing once you get past Norman. It’s a trooper too.

Going back to this anti grind schtick. That’s for testing and solely testing. The point of these lists is to provide a guide that casuals can follow and show them the best options available to them in the game. Not that they even have to listen to us. The tiers are a moot point because casuals like to grind their levels and whatnot. We are testing them in a type of “minimalistic” scenario. Least amount of effort, high payout. Not to mention, most casuals are going to have more than one pokemon by Roxanne anyway.

Again, these are answered if you play the game/test it. Might behoove you to do so.
 
The Torchic retest was because someone didn’t really agree with the nom. It’s expected since the thread is closing on Feb 14th.

Pelipper is friggin amazing once you get past Norman. It’s a trooper too.

Going back to this anti grind schtick. That’s for testing and solely testing. The point of these lists is to provide a guide that casuals can follow and show them the best options available to them in the game. Not that they even have to listen to us. The tiers are a moot point because casuals like to grind their levels and whatnot. We are testing them in a type of “minimalistic” scenario. Least amount of effort, high payout. Not to mention, most casuals are going to have more than one pokemon by Roxanne anyway.

Again, these are answered if you play the game/test it. Might behoove you to do so.
1. Fair, so why not discuss Combusken who is but Torchic?

2. Fair, but that doesn't change the fact not everyone will want a Pelipper. I never really cared for the line until they picked up natural Drizzle in SM. They can also catch a Wingull or even Pelipper herself directly later on, they're not exactly the hardest Pokemon to find.

3. Yes, and if casuals want to get past Roxanne without catching another Pokemon that can beat her, should they not know what Busken can do?

4. I have played the game (multiple times, in fact), thank you very much. I'm speaking from experience. No harm in mentioning it, only good.
 
1. Fair, so why not discuss Combusken who is but Torchic?

2. Fair, but that doesn't change the fact not everyone will want a Pelipper. I never really cared for the line until they picked up natural Drizzle in SM. They can also catch a Wingull or even Pelipper herself directly later on, they're not exactly the hardest Pokemon to find.

3. Yes, and if casuals want to get past Roxanne without catching another Pokemon that can beat her, should they not know what Busken can do?

4. I have played the game (multiple times, in fact), thank you very much. I'm speaking from experience. No harm in mentioning it, only good.
Because getting a Combusken by Roxanne is pretty inefficient? I’m fairly sure this has been pointed out numerous times. Again, we are trying to be minimalistic as possible. The more work you put into a specific mon, it suffers due to that effort required for the expected payout.

Generally speaking, we obtain a pokemon we are testing at the earliest possible moment. There are exceptions to this of course, some examples being the Level 50 Karp in HGSS or bypassing Tentacool for Cruel in GSC/HGSS. In Cool/Cruel case however the MUs don’t really matter as Cool wasn’t going to accomplish much in the first 4 Gyms and Cruel is best obtained outside of Cianwood so the battle performance for the entire line is unaffected and we can just use a past Cool performance to cover Cruel’s non existent MUs.

While this is a fair point, most casuals are gonna know that Fighting trounces Rock. Honestly speaking this point is really moot and just needs to be dropped. It’s gone on long enough and the answers have been provided.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 7)

Top