Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Not to be that guy, but I have never heard of someone advising Thief on Ralts to steal Sitrus Berries as coverage. I've played RSE back since it was new and nobody ever suggested that to me.

Nova's levels may be a little low, sure, but the EXP group is definitely a problem for Ralts.

But I *did* say it was.

With all of that said, I personally believe Ralts should be kept at S, but would understand, despite disagreeing with it, if it's knocked down to A because of the combination of the Ralts Phase and Slow Exp. Group.

Cons

Slow Exp. Group.

This is the one nagging problem that will haunt Gardevoir the whole game. It will drag its team down Exp. wise and there's really no other way to say it.

Besides, honestly, I came up with that strat on the fly. It's really not a bad idea if you think about it tho and it's not like Thief is super contested.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

But I *did* say it was.

Yeah I saw Slow EXP Group as a con. That post of yours was good.

Not trying to nitpick, it's just I only think stealing Berries became mainstream when DPPT gave us the Pluck TM.

 

[earl]

Longtime watcher, I don't think anyone actually plays with equal EXP distribution. Slow EXP group is much more likely to materialize as overall depressed levels across a team as the slow EXP mon absorbs more of the available EXP to stay on par. Feels like a more organic downside rather than keeping it 4 levels lower

 

[Longfellow]

I wouldn't want to storm Team Magma/Aqua's bases with absolutely no answer to Dark-types outside of switching out. Especially Aqua's since they got Carvanha and Poochyena/Mightyena to flat out wall things.

Yeah but like.... they're Poochyena and Carvanha? I dunno, I'm not really shaking in my boots if one of my Pokémon has to sit out from beating Team Magma/Aqua scrubs.

I would definitely rather have Shock Wave than not, don't get me wrong, but having run Spoink a couple of times, I'd definitely consider its reliance on the Shock Wave TM a much smaller deal than its reliance on the Calm Mind TM, for instance.

The best way to test the impact of different exp. groups imo are to do simultaneous runs with logs and having mons with the same exp. group (or even the same mons, but this could get boring, outside of the one you want to test.

Perhaps it'll set your mind at ease if you were to conceptualize of the equal-investment method as splicing together these "organic" runs of pokes from the same exp. groups. For instance, let's suppose we're right before Brawly. Let's say there's 15,000 exp. points to be shared before Brawly and that we're running a team of four pokes.

"Organic" run with only slow exp. mons like Ralts—each poke gets an equal share of exp. (3,750), enough to bring your team up to level 14.

"Organic" run with only fast exp. mons like Marill—each poke gets an equal share of exp. (3,750), enough to bring your team up to level 16.

"Organic" run with only parabolic exp. mons like Mudkip—each poke gets an equal share of exp. (3,750), enough to just barely bring your team up to level 18.

"Inorganic" run, everyone hates it, the crowd boos, this is unnatural!—each poke gets an equal share of exp. (3,750), enough to bring Ralts to level 14, Marill to level 16, and Mudkip to level 18.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Yeah but like.... they're Poochyena and Carvanha? I dunno, I'm not really shaking in my boots if one of my Pokémon has to sit out from beating Team Magma/Aqua scrubs.

That ain't the point, you're missing out on Exp.

And worse, it makes your mons look like wimps, imagine having to switch out against a Poochyena.

It's demoralizing af man.

 

[Longfellow]

Yeah lol it's no fun. I kinda think of it like the tax Electric pokes have to pay every time they see a Geodude. "Aw crap we gotta switch out again" "Ugh this route is nothing but Hikers"

 

[Celeb]

I feel like spreading experience evenly is an interesting take but not common enough to consider realistic. I can't imagine many people going into menu to check everyone's exp. points. The more likely reason in level difference is due to battle performance or one's preference in Pokemon. Additionally, I agree with Volt-Ikazuchi here - the whole team is penalized by slow experience group. It is Ralts' fault but everyone pays for it.

I have used Ralts in Emerald and I have no objections for either S or A tier, to be honest. I would like to see it in the same tier as Zangoose since both Pokemon can easily sweep due to good stats and a boosting move. Also, both of them have similar experience needs in lategame. The main difference between the two is a special bulk and availability - Zangoose can be acquired later (but doesn't have "Ralts phase" in return).
Then again, we are not supposed to compare Pokemon.

P.S.: Shock Wave TM can be easily given to a psychic type of one's choice (Abra/Spoink/Ralts) since almost nothing else needs it.

Hide

Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Magnemite, Voltorb, Rhyhorn, Chinchou, Girafarig, Castform, Kecleon, Shuppet, Banette, Chimecho, Absol - available when Thunderbolt can be acquired.
Grimer, Aron, Volbeat - awful special attack coupled with the fact that electric doesn't cover much
Zigzagoon, Whismur, Skitty, Slakoth, Spinda, Zangoose - useless coverage for normal types
Electrike, Plusle, Minun - get Spark relatively quickly

Koffing, Gulpin - helps but isn't needed
Wingull - fair, deals the same damage as Wing Attack while giving nice coverage
Nosepass, Sableye - honestly, no idea.
Illumise - definitely needs as much help as it can get

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Yeah I saw Slow EXP Group as a con. That post of yours was good.

Not trying to nitpick, it's just I only think stealing Berries became mainstream when DPPT gave us the Pluck TM.

Yep. GOAT Platinum giving inspiration for greatness even in other games.

 

[Longfellow]

Switching pokes after each trainer (or every two/three trainers if that's too often) is functionally similar to going to the menu and micromanaging the experience.

Anyway, I just think that "what happens when we give Pokémon equal resources for the purpose of making a tier list that ranks a poke's viability relative to resources they use?" shouldn't be this atomic a take. If Ralts doesn't look like an S-tier Pokémon when you don't let it mooch experience off its teammates (however unnatural/inorganic it might seem), it was probably never an S-tier Pokémon to begin with.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Switching pokes after each trainer (or every two/three trainers if that's too often) is functionally similar to going to the menu and micromanaging the experience.

Anyway, I just think that "what happens when we give Pokémon equal resources for the purpose of making a tier list that ranks a poke's viability relative to resources they use?" shouldn't be this atomic a take. If Ralts doesn't look like an S-tier Pokémon when you don't let it mooch experience off its teammates (however unnatural/inorganic it might seem), it was probably never an S-tier Pokémon to begin with.

By that logic, Fast Exp or bust.

 

[Longfellow]

Now you get it ;)

 

[Xator_Nova]

This has taken a while LOL

May (Lilycove City)

Blaziken Lv36 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Blaze Kick misses out shortly on the OHKO against Tropius. Double Kick 4HKOs Ludicolo and Marshtomp, and 2HKOs Slugma.

Gardevoir Lv32 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Psychic 3HKOs Tropius and Ludicolo, 2HKOs Marshtomp and OHKOs Slugma. After one Calm Mind it 2HKOs Tropius and Ludicolo.

Alakazam Lv36 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Psychic 2HKOs Tropius, Ludicolo, Marshtomp, and OHKOs Slugma. After one Calm Mind it OHKOs Marshtomp.

Grumpig Lv34 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Psychic 3HKOs Tropius and Ludicolo, 2HKOs Marshtomp and OHKOs Slugma.

Maxie (Magma Hideout)

Blaziken Lv41: Double Kick 2HKOs Mightyena (3HKOs after Intimidate) and 4HKOs Camerupt (5HKOs after Intimidate). Strength 2HKOs Crobat (3HKOs after Intimidate), but Crobat outspeeds and 2HKOs Blaziken (3HKOs after a Bulk Up). Blaziken is outsped by Mightyena as well after Scary Face. Camerupt can OHKO Blaziken with Earthquake (2HKO after Bulk Up).

Gardevoir Lv37: Psychic OHKOs Crobat and 2HKOs Camerupt (4HKOs after Amnesia). Thunderbolt 2HKOs Mightyena. Shock Wave 3HKOs Mightyena. Gardevoir was outsped by Mightyena, Crobat and Camerupt after Mightyena's Scary Face. Camerupt's Earthquake 2HKOs (3HKOs after Reflect) and Crobat's Air Cutter 3HKOs.

Alakazam Lv41: Psychic OHKOs Crobat and 2HKOs Camerupt. With the Shock Wave TM, Alakazam 2HKOs Mightyena. Alakazam is outsped by Crobat after Mightyena's Scary Face, but not before. Alakazam is 4HKOd by Mightyena's Take Down, Camerupt's Earthquake 2HKOs (3HKOs after Reflect) and Crobat's Air Cutter 3HKOs.

Grumpig Lv41: Psychic OHKOs Crobat and 2HKOs Camerupt. Grumpig can deal with Camerupt's Amnesia through Psywave. With the Shock Wave TM, Grumpig 3HKOs Mightyena. Grumpig is outsped by Mightyena and Crobat after Mightyena's Scary Face. Crobat's Wing Attack 4HKOs (8HKOs after Reflect) and Camerupt's Earthquake 2HKOs (4HKOs after Reflect).

Tate & Liza

Blaziken Lv44 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Claydol's Psychic 2HKOs Blaziken, and Earthquake OHKOs. It needs both screens to function. Blaziken's Blaze Kick alongside Strength 2HKOs Xatu, and Blaze Kick 3HKOs Claydol. Blaziken won't last after the first enemy is down.

Gardevoir Lv39 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Psychic 4HKOs Xatu (5HKOs after Xatu's Calm Mind) and 5HKOs Claydol. Must be at +3 Calm Mind to be able to 2HKO. Xatu outspeeds Gardevoir, which means that it can attack before Gardevoir's Light Screen or set up Calm Mind before Gardevoir's attacks. Claydol's Earthquake 2HKOs Gardevoir. Gardevoir 2HKOs Xatu with the Thunderbolt TM and the Shock Wave TM, although the Thunderbolt achieves this even after one Calm Mind. Gardevoir 3HKOs Xatu, Solrock and Lunatone, and 4HKOs Claydol with the Thief TM and the Shadow Ball TM. It must be noted that Trace has a chance of allowing Gardevoir to avoid dealing with Claydol's Earthquake due to copying Claydol's Levitate.

Alakazam Lv44 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Psychic 3HKOs Xatu, Solrock and Lunatone, and 4HKOs Claydol. Must be at +2 Calm Mind to be able to 2HKO. Claydol's Earthquake 2HKOs (4HKOs after Reflect). With the Shadow Ball TM, Alakazam 3HKOs Xatu, Solrock, Lunatone and Claydol. With the Shock Wave TM, Alakazam 2HKOs Xatu. With the Thief TM, Alakazam 3HKOs Xatu, Solrock and Lunatone, and 4HKOs Claydol.

Grumpig Lv44 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Without TMs, Grumpig has to rely on Psywave to get past elemental resistance and buffs, which is a functional but very inconsistent alternative that can inflict damage without set up. With the Shadow Ball TM, Grumpig 3HKOs Xatu, Solrock and Lunatone, and 4HKOs Claydol. With the Shock Wave TM, Grumpig 2HKOs Xatu. With the Thief TM, Grumpig 3HKOs Xatu, Solrock and Lunatone, and 4HKOs Claydol. Grumpig outspeeds Xatu, which means that it can set up Light Screen for its allies before it attacks. Claydol's Earthquake 3HKOs (5HKOs after Reflect). Thick Fat helps against Solrock's Flamethrower in the sun.

Any combination with Blaziken loses. Any combination of two of the Psychics can win. The most efficient one is Alakazam + Grumpig.

Maxie (Mossdeep City)

Blaziken Lv44 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Even after Intimidate, Blaziken can 2HKO Mightyena with Double Kick. After one Bulk Up, Blaziken can 4HKO Camerupt. Difficult to gauge performance against Crobat but it's outsped by it.

Gardevoir Lv40 (w/ Sitrus Berry): With the Thunderbolt TM, Gardevoir 2HKOs Mightyena. With the Shock Wave TM, Gardevoir 3HKOs Mightyena. Psychic 2HKOs Camerupt (watch out for Amnesia though since Gardevoir is outsped after Scary Face) and OHKOs Crobat.

Alakazam Lv44 (w/ Sitrus Berry): With the Shock Wave TM, Alakazam 2HKOs Mightyena. Psychic 2HKOs Camerupt and OHKOs Crobat. Alakazam outspeeds Crobat.

Grumpig Lv45 (w/ Sitrus Berry): With the Shock Wave TM, Grumpig 3HKOs Mightyena. Psychic 2HKOs Camerupt and OHKOs Crobat.

Archie (Seafloor Cavern)

Blaziken Lv45: Double Kick 2HKOs Mightyena (3HKOs after Intimidate). Blaze Kick 2HKOs Crobat, although Crobat outspeeds and 2HKOs. Double Kick KOs Sharpedo even after Intimidate.

Gardevoir Lv41: With the Shock Wave TM, Gardevoir 3HKOs Mightyena and OHKOs Sharpedo. With the Thunderbolt TM, Gardevoir 2HKOs Mightyena. Psychic OHKOs Crobat.

Alakazam Lv45: With the Shock Wave TM, Alakazam 2HKOs Mightyena and OHKOs Sharpedo. Psychic OHKOs Crobat.

Grumpig Lv46: With the Shock Wave TM, Grumpig 3HKOs Mightyena and OHKOs Sharpedo. Psychic OHKOs Crobat.

Juan

Blaziken Lv47 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Double Kick 5HKOs Kingdra (4HKO after one Bulk Up), 4HKOs Whiscash (3HKO after one Bulk Up, 2HKO after two Bulk Ups), 3HKOs Luvdisc (2HKO after one Bulk Up), 2HKOs Sealeo and Crawdaunt. Luvdisc 3HKOs, Crawdaunt 2HKOs, Whiscash 2HKOs and Kingdra 2HKOs. It has a chance of victory if it manages to set up two Bulk Ups.

Gardevoir Lv42: Psychic OHKOs Luvdisc, and 2HKOs Sealeo (OHKO after one Calm Mind), Whicash (misses out the OHKO after one Calm Mind by very little, watch out for Amnesia) and Kingdra (OHKO after two Calm Minds). With the Thunderbolt TM, Gardevoir OHKOs Crawdaunt. With the Shock Wave TM, Gardevoir 2HKOs Crawdaunt.

Alakazam Lv47: Psychic OHKOs Luvdisc, and 2HKOs Sealeo (misses out on a OHKO by little), Whiscash (OHKO after Calm Mind) and Kingdra (OHKO after a Calm Mind). With the Shock Wave TM, Alakazam misses out on the OHKO against Crawdaunt by very little.

Grumpig Lv48: Psychic OHKOs Luvdisc, 2HKOs Sealeo, Whiscash (watch out for Amnesia though) and Kingdra. With the Shock Wave TM, Grumpig can 2HKO Crawdaunt. With the Calm Mind TM, one Calm Mind enables the OHKO to Sealeo and Crawdaunt. With two uses, Whiscash and Kingdra are OHKO'd.

The general impression that I'm getting by this is that Grumpig can replicate Gardevoir's performance, and Grumpig is somewhat better at certain things:
- Grumpig has more bulk than Gardevoir, especially HP and Special Defense, and Thick Fat only exacerbates that against certain enemies.
- Grumpig doesn't need a TM against Psychic type enemies because of Psywave, although it must be noted that Psywave is a terrible move because it's inaccurate and inconsistent. It just happens that it works in this particular scenario, and it's still means that Grumpig doesn't need a TM for coverage against them in case the player really needs them for somebody else. This is particularly useful against Tate & Liza.
- Grumpig is faster than Gardevoir due to the level gap. This makes the difference in certain scenarios.

However:
- Gardevoir has natural Calm Mind, and this means that Gardevoir doesn't need the Calm Mind TM while Grumpig does to sweep (this hasn't been an impedement against Grumpig until Juan, however). Gardevoir can also use Calm Mind to get past Psychic-type enemies.
- Access to the Thunderbolt TM means that Gardevoir hits Dark-type enemies harder than Grumpig.

Also:
- Alakazam's Shock Wave is just as strong as Gardevoir's Thunderbolt.
- Alakazam doesn't need healing items because of Recover.
- Alakazam is significantly better than both Gardevoir and Grumpig.

Regarding Blaziken, it has improved significantly after evolution and feels more self-sufficient, although Tate & Liza is still a match-up that it can't win, predictably.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

I think slow experience groups should count as a weakness only if the Pokemon can't be competitive without weighing down their teams. A Pokemon like Starmie or DD Gyarados would likely be a monster even underleveled due to their excellent stat spread and versatility through TMs and natural moves alone, though the same might not apply to a slow experience Pokemon that doesn't have those benefits.

Gardevoir seems far closer to the Starmie mold, she's very versatile and has beastly Special stats and can set up with natural CM as of L21, which is super early, and the slow experience group doesn't really become a problem until you go higher up in levels.

I honestly just think Pokemon who can setup and have reliable bulk and/or speed to do it as well as good moves are just gonna be B Tier minimum. Even a Pokemon like GSC Bellsprout with a horribly sparse movepool (no powerful Grass-type move until Razor Leaf in the L40s or the Solarbeam TM right before the E4, stuck with Vine Whip during that time unless if you breed) can beat tough bosses with Growth sweeping and Sleep Powder support for instance, even Bugsy who has a massive elemental advantage and even Whitney - you might need a couple of Potions at best. Gardevoir is far better off, having actual speed, special bulk, and far better special moves to throw at the enemy as well as a more spammable type overall. No sleep moves until very very late, yes, though Reflect and Double Team can pick up the slack there.

Thoughts?

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

This has taken a while LOL

May (Lilycove City)

Blaziken Lv36 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Blaze Kick misses out shortly on the OHKO against Tropius. Double Kick 4HKOs Ludicolo and Marshtomp, and 2HKOs Slugma.

Gardevoir Lv32 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Psychic 3HKOs Tropius and Ludicolo, 2HKOs Marshtomp and OHKOs Slugma. After one Calm Mind it 2HKOs Tropius and Ludicolo.

Alakazam Lv36 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Psychic 2HKOs Tropius, Ludicolo, Marshtomp, and OHKOs Slugma. After one Calm Mind it OHKOs Marshtomp.

Grumpig Lv34 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Psychic 3HKOs Tropius and Ludicolo, 2HKOs Marshtomp and OHKOs Slugma.

Maxie (Magma Hideout)

View attachment 311693View attachment 311694View attachment 311695View attachment 311696
Blaziken Lv41: Double Kick 2HKOs Mightyena (3HKOs after Intimidate) and 4HKOs Camerupt (5HKOs after Intimidate). Strength 2HKOs Crobat (3HKOs after Intimidate), but Crobat outspeeds and 2HKOs Blaziken (3HKOs after a Bulk Up). Blaziken is outsped by Mightyena as well after Scary Face. Camerupt can OHKO Blaziken with Earthquake (2HKO after Bulk Up).

Gardevoir Lv37: Psychic OHKOs Crobat and 2HKOs Camerupt (4HKOs after Amnesia). Thunderbolt 2HKOs Mightyena. Shock Wave 3HKOs Mightyena. Gardevoir was outsped by Mightyena, Crobat and Camerupt after Mightyena's Scary Face. Camerupt's Earthquake 2HKOs (3HKOs after Reflect) and Crobat's Air Cutter 3HKOs.

Alakazam Lv41: Psychic OHKOs Crobat and 2HKOs Camerupt. With the Shock Wave TM, Alakazam 2HKOs Mightyena. Alakazam is outsped by Crobat after Mightyena's Scary Face, but not before. Alakazam is 4HKOd by Mightyena's Take Down, Camerupt's Earthquake 2HKOs (3HKOs after Reflect) and Crobat's Air Cutter 3HKOs.

Grumpig Lv41: Psychic OHKOs Crobat and 2HKOs Camerupt. Grumpig can deal with Camerupt's Amnesia through Psywave. With the Shock Wave TM, Grumpig 3HKOs Mightyena. Grumpig is outsped by Mightyena and Crobat after Mightyena's Scary Face. Crobat's Wing Attack 4HKOs (8HKOs after Reflect) and Camerupt's Earthquake 2HKOs (4HKOs after Reflect).

Tate & Liza

View attachment 311689View attachment 311690View attachment 311691View attachment 311692
Blaziken Lv44 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Claydol's Psychic 2HKOs Blaziken, and Earthquake OHKOs. It needs both screens to function. Blaziken's Blaze Kick alongside Strength 2HKOs Xatu, and Blaze Kick 3HKOs Claydol. Blaziken won't last after the first enemy is down.

Gardevoir Lv39 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Psychic 4HKOs Xatu (5HKOs after Xatu's Calm Mind) and 5HKOs Claydol. Must be at +3 Calm Mind to be able to 2HKO. Xatu outspeeds Gardevoir, which means that it can attack before Gardevoir's Light Screen or set up Calm Mind before Gardevoir's attacks. Claydol's Earthquake 2HKOs Gardevoir. Gardevoir 2HKOs Xatu with the Thunderbolt TM and the Shock Wave TM, although the Thunderbolt achieves this even after one Calm Mind. Gardevoir 3HKOs Xatu, Solrock and Lunatone, and 4HKOs Claydol with the Thief TM and the Shadow Ball TM. It must be noted that Trace has a chance of allowing Gardevoir to avoid dealing with Claydol's Earthquake due to copying Claydol's Levitate.

Alakazam Lv44 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Psychic 3HKOs Xatu, Solrock and Lunatone, and 4HKOs Claydol. Must be at +2 Calm Mind to be able to 2HKO. Claydol's Earthquake 2HKOs (4HKOs after Reflect). With the Shadow Ball TM, Alakazam 3HKOs Xatu, Solrock, Lunatone and Claydol. With the Shock Wave TM, Alakazam 2HKOs Xatu. With the Thief TM, Alakazam 3HKOs Xatu, Solrock and Lunatone, and 4HKOs Claydol.

Grumpig Lv44 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Without TMs, Grumpig has to rely on Psywave to get past elemental resistance and buffs, which is a functional but very inconsistent alternative that can inflict damage without set up. With the Shadow Ball TM, Grumpig 3HKOs Xatu, Solrock and Lunatone, and 4HKOs Claydol. With the Shock Wave TM, Grumpig 2HKOs Xatu. With the Thief TM, Grumpig 3HKOs Xatu, Solrock and Lunatone, and 4HKOs Claydol. Grumpig outspeeds Xatu, which means that it can set up Light Screen for its allies before it attacks. Claydol's Earthquake 3HKOs (5HKOs after Reflect). Thick Fat helps against Solrock's Flamethrower in the sun.

Any combination with Blaziken loses. Any combination of two of the Psychics can win. The most efficient one is Alakazam + Grumpig.

Maxie (Mossdeep City)

Blaziken Lv44 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Even after Intimidate, Blaziken can 2HKO Mightyena with Double Kick. After one Bulk Up, Blaziken can 4HKO Camerupt. Difficult to gauge performance against Crobat but it's outsped by it.

Gardevoir Lv40 (w/ Sitrus Berry): With the Thunderbolt TM, Gardevoir 2HKOs Mightyena. With the Shock Wave TM, Gardevoir 3HKOs Mightyena. Psychic 2HKOs Camerupt (watch out for Amnesia though since Gardevoir is outsped after Scary Face) and OHKOs Crobat.

Alakazam Lv44 (w/ Sitrus Berry): With the Shock Wave TM, Alakazam 2HKOs Mightyena. Psychic 2HKOs Camerupt and OHKOs Crobat. Alakazam outspeeds Crobat.

Grumpig Lv45 (w/ Sitrus Berry): With the Shock Wave TM, Grumpig 3HKOs Mightyena. Psychic 2HKOs Camerupt and OHKOs Crobat.

Archie (Seafloor Cavern)

Blaziken Lv45: Double Kick 2HKOs Mightyena (3HKOs after Intimidate). Blaze Kick 2HKOs Crobat, although Crobat outspeeds and 2HKOs. Double Kick KOs Sharpedo even after Intimidate.

Gardevoir Lv41: With the Shock Wave TM, Gardevoir 3HKOs Mightyena and OHKOs Sharpedo. With the Thunderbolt TM, Gardevoir 2HKOs Mightyena. Psychic OHKOs Crobat.

Alakazam Lv45: With the Shock Wave TM, Alakazam 2HKOs Mightyena and OHKOs Sharpedo. Psychic OHKOs Crobat.

Grumpig Lv46: With the Shock Wave TM, Grumpig 3HKOs Mightyena and OHKOs Sharpedo. Psychic OHKOs Crobat.

Juan

View attachment 311685View attachment 311686View attachment 311687View attachment 311688
Blaziken Lv47 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Double Kick 5HKOs Kingdra (4HKO after one Bulk Up), 4HKOs Whiscash (3HKO after one Bulk Up, 2HKO after two Bulk Ups), 3HKOs Luvdisc (2HKO after one Bulk Up), 2HKOs Sealeo and Crawdaunt. Luvdisc 3HKOs, Crawdaunt 2HKOs, Whiscash 2HKOs and Kingdra 2HKOs. It has a chance of victory if it manages to set up two Bulk Ups.

Gardevoir Lv42: Psychic OHKOs Luvdisc, and 2HKOs Sealeo (OHKO after one Calm Mind), Whicash (misses out the OHKO after one Calm Mind by very little, watch out for Amnesia) and Kingdra (OHKO after two Calm Minds). With the Thunderbolt TM, Gardevoir OHKOs Crawdaunt. With the Shock Wave TM, Gardevoir 2HKOs Crawdaunt.

Alakazam Lv47: Psychic OHKOs Luvdisc, and 2HKOs Sealeo (misses out on a OHKO by little), Whiscash (OHKO after Calm Mind) and Kingdra (OHKO after a Calm Mind). With the Shock Wave TM, Alakazam misses out on the OHKO against Crawdaunt by very little.

Grumpig Lv48: Psychic OHKOs Luvdisc, 2HKOs Sealeo, Whiscash (watch out for Amnesia though) and Kingdra. With the Shock Wave TM, Grumpig can 2HKO Crawdaunt. With the Calm Mind TM, one Calm Mind enables the OHKO to Sealeo and Crawdaunt. With two uses, Whiscash and Kingdra are OHKO'd.

The general impression that I'm getting by this is that Grumpig can replicate Gardevoir's performance, and Grumpig is somewhat better at certain things:
- Grumpig has more bulk than Gardevoir, especially HP and Special Defense, and Thick Fat only exacerbates that against certain enemies.
- Grumpig doesn't need a TM against Psychic type enemies because of Psywave, although it must be noted that Psywave is a terrible move because it's inaccurate and inconsistent. It just happens that it works in this particular scenario, and it's still means that Grumpig doesn't need a TM for coverage against them in case the player really needs them for somebody else. This is particularly useful against Tate & Liza.
- Grumpig is faster than Gardevoir due to the level gap. This makes the difference in certain scenarios.

However:
- Gardevoir has natural Calm Mind, and this means that Gardevoir doesn't need the Calm Mind TM while Grumpig does to sweep (this hasn't been an impedement against Grumpig until Juan, however). Gardevoir can also use Calm Mind to get past Psychic-type enemies.
- Access to the Thunderbolt TM means that Gardevoir hits Dark-type enemies harder than Grumpig.

Also:
- Alakazam's Shock Wave is just as strong as Gardevoir's Thunderbolt.
- Alakazam doesn't need healing items because of Recover.
- Alakazam is significantly better than both Gardevoir and Grumpig.

Regarding Blaziken, it has improved significantly after evolution and feels more self-sufficient, although Tate & Liza is still a match-up that it can't win, predictably.

Quick question: Why is Grumpig consistently with 5~6k less experience points than the rest of the party in your screenshots (while conspicuously being around the same level or just one higher than the rest of your team?)

 

[Xator_Nova]

Quick question: Why is Grumpig consistently with 5~6k less experience points than the rest of the party in your screenshots (while conspicuously being around the same level or just one higher than the rest of your team?)

Because I'm deliberately keeping it 6000 experience points less than the rest of the team (approximately) since it's more or less the difference between Spoink Lv22 (catch level) and Combusken Lv27 (the party member with the highest experience amount I had in Jagged Pass), which is the way that Spoink's later availability is reflected in the playthrough - in other words, it's receiving just as much experience as the rest of the team and it didn't receive favoritism to start off. It's around the same level or higher than the rest of my team because Spoink belongs to the Fast experience group and thus levels up faster.

 

[Celeb]

Also:
- Alakazam's Shock Wave is just as strong as Gardevoir's Thunderbolt.

Good post overall but this fragment is not true. The proof is even inside your post. Alakazam fails to OHKO Maxie's Crawdaunt whereas Gardevoir does achieve one hit knockout with Thunderbolt. There's around 15-20% power difference between the two according to my quick calculations.

I think slow experience groups should count as a weakness only if the Pokemon can't be competitive without weighing down their teams. A Pokemon like Starmie or DD Gyarados would likely be a monster even underleveled due to their excellent stat spread and versatility through TMs and natural moves alone, though the same might not apply to a slow experience Pokemon that doesn't have those benefits.

Gardevoir seems far closer to the Starmie mold, she's very versatile and has beastly Special stats and can set up with natural CM as of L21, which is super early, and the slow experience group doesn't really become a problem until you go higher up in levels.

Xator_Nova actually tests how Gardevoir works while being underleveled and it doesn't seem like there's much difference. I assume that Gardevoir wouldn't feel on par with Grumpig and significantly worse than Alakazam if levels were equal.

To be honest, I don't even consider experience groups into tiering unless Pokemon's placement is uncertain. I don't even notice experience needs most of the time unless it's something major like 20lv Zangoose requiring twice as much experience as my starter. Slow group usually needs 25-35% more experience than medium fast/medium slow Pokemon.

 

[Ernesto]

Honestly, even though Xator's levels are all over the place as a result of the equal experience thingy (I was never at level 47 before the last gym lmao, it's generally closer to Garde's level) the more I think about it the more I wonder if A might not be the best place for Ralts. Everyone knows what it does lategame, it's clearly one of the best mons at that last part—possibly more in Emerald where it doesn't have to face Steven's Metagross—but when rethinking my experience prior to evolving and comparing it to fellow borderline A/S Zangoose I consider it's definitely a little behind. Zangoose could sweep even from a couple levels back when the experience toll was at its worst, whereas Kirlia struggles a bit more even with CM and Psychic. That's particularly notable for Norman, where unless you give it Rare Candies it'll generally be unevolved since there's not enough experience between Flannery and him. (EDIT: Brawly is a non-issue because he's skippable, so there's really no reason to be at level 13 ever)

I completely understand if you guys choose to keep it S since that was my previous rank for it, it's just that when we consider both the exp. group and the rarity (minor detail, but it adds up) A might be more suitable for it. And hey, that'd make it a great fish in a small pond instead of always having to play second fiddle to Alakazam!

PS: When talking about Zangoose remember that around level 35 it begins to level up faster than everything but the Fast ones so in a four-mon team you might end up with crazy high levels. I actually had to start actively training my Swampert because of it. So it has a very rough start but afterwards it's a very generous team player.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Honestly, even though Xator's levels are all over the place as a result of the equal experience thingy (I was never at level 47 before the last gym lmao, it's generally closer to Garde's level) the more I think about it the more I wonder if A might not be the best place for Ralts. Everyone knows what it does lategame, it's clearly one of the best mons at that last part—possibly more in Emerald where it doesn't have to face Steven's Metagross—but when rethinking my experience prior to evolving and comparing it to fellow borderline A/S Zangoose I consider it's definitely a little behind. Zangoose could sweep even from a couple levels back when the experience toll was at its worst, whereas Kirlia struggles a bit more even with CM and Psychic. That's particularly notable for Norman, where unless you give it Rare Candies it'll generally be unevolved since there's not enough experience between Flannery and him. (EDIT: Brawly is a non-issue because he's skippable, so there's really no reason to be at level 13 ever)

I completely understand if you guys choose to keep it S since that was my previous rank for it, it's just that when we consider both the exp. group and the rarity (minor detail, but it adds up) A might be more suitable for it. And hey, that'd make it a great fish in a small pond instead of always having to play second fiddle to Alakazam!

PS: When talking about Zangoose remember that around level 35 it begins to level up faster than everything but the Fast ones so in a four-mon team you might end up with crazy high levels. I actually had to start actively training my Swampert because of it. So it has a very rough start but afterwards it's a very generous team player.

Yeah, like I said, there are very valid arguments for both S and A.

Alakazam is just the equivalent of a Scarf Gorilla Tactics Galarian Darmanitan running around in-game at Lv. 16, that thing is just ridiculous and it's obvious it's built different because it's like, S-Tier in like, 10 different games, so no matter what you compare to it, it won't be as good.

Maybe only Plat Starly is that dominant and even then it might not be enough.

Gardevoir does put up an exemplary performance, if it was a Medium-Slow mon, this wouldn't even be a debate tbh. A lot of things have been said, some of them repeatedly, so who knows what the verdict will be.

For all that's worth, I'd still vote it for S-Tier.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

It's clearly S to me regardless as well. Obviously there are valid arguments for A given that was where it started and that we had to argue long and hard to get it moved up and I value the experiences of those who think it to be A as well. For me, the Ralts period was more than tolerable, I had no issues with raising it to Kirlia and Kirlia performed more than adequately when I gave it appropriate attention (levels, and a held Cheri Berry for Watson). The experience group was never a factor for me and the only down point was the Norman fight. And of course Gardevoir sweeps the game. My logs (linked on the last page) are fairly compelling testament to the upside of the Pokemon that justifies S tier, I believe. Only Alakazam and perhaps arguably Zangoose reach the dominance of Gardevoir in the end game, Swampert getting to S on pure high performance consistency rather than outright dominance. Gardevoir in S tier is a credit to the things in the tier, even if it may be third fiddle, and it would be a disservice having it in A tier when something like Breloom or Blaziken (depending on your opinion) already makes a strong case to rise to the top tier and Gardevoir clearly surpasses both.

As a side note, it's important to note that I value end game performance much more highly than early or mid game performance, and that this is something I think should be standardized. Significantly harder to manage end game enemies and strong performance there should be rewarded, similarly, weak performance penalized.

 

[Xator_Nova]

I forgot Wally existed and I got accidentally overleveled, so he caught me off guard. Oh well, the following section is in case anyone is interested in the fight against Wally. :/

Wally (Victory Road)

Blaziken Lv50: Strength 3HKOs Altaria (2HKOs after one Bulk Up) and 2HKOs Gardevoir (OHKOs after two Bulk Up). Double Kick KOs Magneton and Delcatty. Blaze Kick OHKOs Roselia. With the Rock Tomb or Return TMs, Blaziken 2HKOs Altaria, and Gardevoir can be OHKOd by Return after one Bulk Up.

Gardevoir Lv44: Psychic 4HKOs Gardevoir (2HKO after two Calm Minds), 2HKOs Altaria (OHKO after two Calm Minds) and Magneton (OHKO after two Calm Minds), OHKOs Roselia and Delcatty. Gardevoir 3HKOs Wally's Gardevoir with the Thunderbolt TM, although Calm Mind will make this not work very well.

Alakazam Lv49: Psychic 3HKOs Gardevoir (2HKO after one Calm Mind), 2HKOs Altaria (OHKO after one Calm Mind) and Magneton (OHKO after one Calm Mind), and OHKOs Roselia and Delcatty.

Grumpig Lv51: Psychic 4HKOs Gardevoir, 2HKOs Altaria and Magneton, OHKOs Roselia and Delcatty. Psywave can be used against Gardevoir. With the Calm Mind TM, Grumpig 2HKOs Gardevoir and OHKOs Altaria and Magneton after two uses.

Now onto the Pokémon League.

Sydney

Blaziken Lv51 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Double Kick 3HKOs everyone. After one Bulk Up, it 2HKOs everyone. Mightyena's Sand Attack or Swagger can disrupt the sweep.

Gardevoir Lv46 (w/ Sitrus Berry): With the Thunderbolt TM, Gardevoir OHKOs Crawdaunt, 2HKOs Mightyena and Absol, 4HKOs Cacturne and 5HKOs Shiftry. Mightyena will disrupt set up with Swagger, Roar or Sand Attack, which means that a sweep is unlikely without item support. Even if the player uses Double Team and Calm Mind, repeated Sand Attacks will cause accuracy issues and Gardevoir may miss enough times that its PP can run out. Shiftry's Torment can also stop Gardevoir since it gives the enemy a free turn. Absol's Aerial Ace and Cacturne's Faint Attack ignore Gardevoir's evasion boosts. With the Shock Wave TM, Gardevoir 3HKOs Mightyena, but it gets past the accuracy debuffs, and Gardevoir can set up against Shiftry. It must be noted that Gardevoir doesn't OHKO Shiftry and Cacturne after six Calm Mind boosts.

Alakazam Lv51 (w/ Sitrus Berry): With the Shock Wave TM, Alakazam 2HKOs Mightyena. With the Double Team TM, Alakazam can defeat Sidney, but the player has to take into account that it's not consistent (see the Gardevoir paragraph). It must be noted that Alakazam doesn't OHKO Shiftry after six Calm Mind boosts.

Grumpig Lv53 (w/ Sitrus Berry): With the Shock Wave TM, Grumpig 3HKOs Mightyena. With the Double Team TM, Grumpig can defeat Sidney, but the player has to take into account that it's not consistent (see the Gardevoir paragraph). It must be noted that Grumpig doesn't OHKO Shiftry and Cacturne after six Calm Mind boosts.

Phoebe

Blaziken Lv52 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Blaze Kick 2HKOs the enemies (OHKO under the sun against Banette and Sableye). Fire Blast OHKOs Banette and Sableye, and 2HKOs Dusclops (OHKOs the first one under the sun).

Gardevoir Lv46 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Psychic 2HKOs the first Dusclops and Banette, and 3HKOs the second Dusclops. Needs two Calm Minds to OHKO one of the Dusclops and both Banette, but the second Dusclops requires a third one. Thunderbolt misses on the 2HKO by very little against Sableye, though one must be careful of Double Team if one hasn't set up three Calm Minds. Shock Wave 4HKOs Sableye. Ghost-type attacks 2HKO Gardevoir. The sweep can be disrupted by Dusclop's Curse.

Alakazam Lv51 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Psychic 2HKOs Dusclops and Banette. After one Calm Mind, Alakazam OHKOs one of the Dusclops and both Banette, but the second Dusclops requires two Calm Minds. Shock Wave 3HKOs Sableye (2HKO after one Calm Mind). Ghost-type attacks 2HKO Alakazam. The sweep can be disrupted by Dusclop's Curse.

Grumpig Lv53 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Psychic 2HKOs Dusclops and Banette, and 3HKOs the second Dusclops. Shock Wave 4HKOs Sableye (2HKO after two Calm Minds). Needs two Calm Minds to OHKO one of the Dusclops and both Banette, but the second Dusclops requires a third one. Ghost-type attacks 3HKO Grumpig. The sweep can be disrupted by Dusclop's Curse.

Glacia

Blaziken Lv52 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Double Kick 3HKOs Sealeo and Glalie, and 4HKOs Walrein. Blaziken needs two Bulk Ups and then sweeps. With the Brick Break TM, Blaziken only needs one Bulk Up. Watch out for Sealeo's Encore.

Gardevoir Lv47 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Psychic 2HKOs Sealeo and the first Glalie, but it's a range. Psychic 3HKOs the second Glalie and Walrein. You can use the Thunderbolt TM to ensure the 2HKO against Sealeo and Walrein, but it needs three Calm Minds to OHKO everyone consistently. Set up against Sealeo. Watch out for Sealeo's Encore.

Alakazam Lv52 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Psychic 2HKOs everyone. Needs two Calm Minds to OHKO everyone consistently. Set up against Sealeo. Watch out for Sealeo's Encore.

Grumpig Lv53 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Psychic 2HKOs Sealeo and the first Glalie, but it's a range. Psychic 3HKOs the second Glalie and Walrein. Needs three Calm Minds to OHKO everyone consistently. Set up against Sealeo.

Drake

Blaziken Lv52 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Blaziken 5HKOs Shelgon and Kingdra with Double Kick. Strength 5HKOs Salamence and 4HKOs Altaria. Flygon OHKOs Blaziken with Earthquake. Kingdra barely misses on the OHKO with Surf. Flygon and Salamence outspeed Blaziken. Would rely on the Double Team TM for a chance to sweep. The Brick Break TM doesn't make a difference.

Gardevoir Lv47 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Psychic 2HKOs Shelgon and Flygon, and 3HKOs Salamence, Altaria and Kingdra. Flygon and Salamence outspeed Gardevoir. Would rely on Double Team for a chance to sweep.

Alakazam Lv52 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Psychic 2HKOs everyone (it's a range on Salamence and Altaria). After one Calm Mind, Alakazam OHKOs Shelgon. After two Calm Minds, Alakazam can OHKO everyone. You can set up the first one against Shelgon while it uses Protect, then Reflect against Flygon and set the second and even the third one against Flygon in case the range is too scary.

Grumpig Lv54 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Psychic 2HKOs Shelgon and Flygon, and 3HKOs Salamence, Altaria and Kingdra. Flygon and Salamence outspeed Grumpig.

Wallace

Blaziken Lv52 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Blaziken is hopelessly OHKO'd.

Gardevoir Lv47 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Tentacruel and Milotic outspeed Gardevoir. Psychic 3HKOs Wailord, Ludicolo, Whiscash, Gyarados, 2HKOs Tentacruel, and 4HKO Milotic. Thunderbolt 2HKOs Wailord, OHKOs Gyarados and 3HKOs Milotic. Would rely on Double Team for a chance to sweep.

Alakazam Lv52 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Psychic 4HKOs Milotic, 2HKOs Wailord, Tentacruel and Gyarados, and misses out by little on the 2HKO against Ludicolo and Whiscash. After three Calm Minds, Alakazam can sweep everyone bar Milotic, who is easily 2HKO'd. Weaken Wailord first. If Wailord used Rain Dance: Use Calm Mind, and then Reflect. If Wailord attacked, use Reflect, and then Calm Mind. Recover if under 40 HP.

Grumpig Lv54 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Psychic 3HKOs Wailord, Ludicolo, Whiscash, Gyarados, 2HKOs Tentacruel, and 4HKOs Milotic. Can potentially sweep with four Calm Minds, though it's not very reliable.

So, after everything that has happened, the most surprising thing to me were how many issues Gardevoir had in the final portion of the game, especially because the main argument in its favor is precisely that it becomes the best Pokémon in the game (apart from Rayquaza, I guess), and that's far from the experience I had. It's not just that it never catches up with Alakazam, but also that I faced significant reliability issues. I'm not convinced that natural Double Team is such a massive advantage for three reasons:
- It's luck dependant, and as much as it can help, there's a non-negligible chance that your Pokémon gets affected and will need item support.
- It's a TM that can be given to pretty much anyone. It's still an advantage that Gardevoir doesn't need the TM, but any Psychic-type can replicate it with the Double Team TM.
- It's obviously less efficient than just defeating enemies outright.

and the truth is that Double Team becomes an important part of its performance because its speed is problematic for the final bosses. Base 80 is the same as Blaziken, but because of the Slow experience group, its speed is decisively slower. If Gardevoir already faced issues in a four team party, it'd be worse in a larger one. As you can see, the final boss was more easily defeated by Grumpig than by Gardevoir because of the speed difference alone.

Good match-ups without rare TMs: May (Lilycove City), Juan, Wally, Glacia
Good match-ups with rare TMs: Winona, Tate & Liza, Archie, Phoebe
Bad match-ups: Roxanne, May (Rustboro), Brawly (pre-Slateport), May (Route 110), Wattson, Flannery, Norman, May (Route 119), Maxie, Sidney, Drake, Wallace

Ultimately, my opinion is that Ralts has no place in S Tier. I would even go one step beyond and doubt that Ralts belongs in A Tier, too, because the period of time where it can dominate enemies comes after evolution (sixth badge), which is more than half the game, and then its performance takes a dip again in the final portion of the game that doesn't allow Gardevoir not just to sweep, but even to take one on one against important enemies, not like Alakazam is able to just come in and 2HKO Drake's Salamence. If I had to say a tier it belongs to, based on the experience I had with Gardevoir in this playthrough, it'd probably be B Tier, but the important thing is that it doesn't belong in the highest tier and should be brought down.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Onto Torchic: I was going to say that it faces significant issues, too, but then I remembered that it can actually take on two Elite Four members by itself reliably, or even three with TM investment. Losing match-ups are Drake and Wallace, but perhaps it's better in Ruby/Sapphire where the final boss has Steel-type enemies. With that said, it needs too much time to really get going, and even after evolution it faces issues due to its frailty alongside common type disadvantages. I think it belongs in B Tier.
Good match-ups without rare TMs: May (Route 119), Winona, May (Lilycove), Juan, Sidney, Glacia.
Good match-ups with rare TMs: Wattson, Flannery, Wally, Phoebe
Bad match-ups: Roxanne, May (Rustboro), Brawly (pre-Slateport), May (Route 110), Maxie, Tate & Liza, Archie, Drake, Wallace

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Abra is obviously S Tier.
Good match-ups without rare TMs: Brawly (pre-Slateport), May (Route 110), Wattson, Flannery, Norman, May (Route 119), May (Lilycove), Juan, Wally, Glacia, Drake, Wallace
Good match-ups with rare TMs: Winona, Maxie, Tate & Liza, Archie, Phoebe
Bad match-ups: Roxanne, May (Rustboro), Sidney

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Spoink should stay at C Tier. The most visible flaw is the lack of natural Calm Mind, because that helps it a lot against the final bosses, and it's absolutely required for its usefulness. It also evolves relatively late, like Torchic and Ralts and thus takes a while to get going while unevolved.
Good match-ups without rare TMs: May (Lilycove), Tate & Liza
Good match-ups with rare TMs: Winona, Archie, Juan, Wally, Phoebe, Glacia, Wallace
Bad match-ups: Flannery, Norman, May (Route 119), Maxie, Sidney, Drake
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

anyways, this has been a very interesting playthrough to make! it's been interesting to revisit two of my favorite mons in their debut generation. hopefully this gives a different perspective on these mons

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

My dude you ran Gardevoir into the league 5-6 levels below the rest of your team and well below the levels of normal tests for the Elite Four. I don't know what you were expecting, and I really don't know how you can expect to draw the conclusion that Ralts shouldn't be S tier when you're neglecting it to this degree.

edit: to say nothing of strategy, setting up CMs and DTs against Mightyena is the worst possible strategy since Shiftry comes in right after and only has Extrasensory to touch you, e.g. free set up.

Frankly at every point of your test you put Ralts/Kirlia/Gardevoir in the worst possible position to succeed and your impression of its performance matches exactly to that intent. I appreciate your testing of the psychics but you've really done a disservice to the Ralts line with your methodology here.

 

[ceal]

Xator ran his Garde into the League at 46, which, according to you from last page, is a perfectly acceptable level to challenge the e4 at:

Oh I detailed that earlier, anywhere from 46-48 in my experience, depending on team size and how many optional trainers you fight. Such levels can beat the game but generally rely on heavy item use.

In fact you yourself have gone into the e4 with comparable levels, as seen here:

Drake

(48): Bulk Up four times against two Protects and OHKO Shelgon, eat Flamethrower from Flygon and OHKO it, potion against Altaria and take Aerial Ace for about a third and then OHKO with Rock Tomb, Salamence comes in and you are not at full health after two Aerial Aces so you cannot tank its Flamethrower like you normally could. If at boosted speed, continue to sweep. Kingdra obviously dies to boosted Brick Break while not doing much back. 3/5 cleanly killed, clean sweep with X Speeds, Heracross continues to show dominance.

(47): Loses to Shelgon Double-Edge in a damage race, gets dumpstered by Flygon, gets dumpstered by Salamence, 3HKOs Kingdra with Double-Edge without triggering a potion but is likely to require a Potion depending on how frequently it Body Slams, trades exactly evenly with Altaria in a Double-Edge race. Bad performance.

(47): Cannot beat Shelgon, 3HKOs Kingdra but is 2HKOed back, 3HKOs Salamence but is 2HKOed back, lolFlygon, 3HKOs Altaria but is outsped and 2HKOd by Double-Edge but you have 37% to paralyze it before it can kill you. Bad performance.

(47): Goes evenly on damage race with Shelgon and is slightly favoured due to Sludge Bomb poison rolls, same situation for Altaria, gets 2HKOed by Kingdra, is only 4HKOed by Flygon and so can win via Toxic with Potion support, cleanly 2HKOed by Salamence. Mediocre performance.

(47): Rolls to 2HKO Shelgon and is not 2HKOed in return, is 2HKOed by Flygon before it can 2HKO back, is 2HKOed by Salamence and cannot 2HKO back after Sitrus, loses outright to Kingdra, just misses the 2HKO on Altaria but can live a +2 Double-Edge and should win after recoil as a result. Bad performance.

(48): Requires a combination of any two Rock Tomb misses or Protect uses to get to +6 against Rock Tomb Shelgon at which point it OHKOs Shelgon and Flygon before falling to 5% health Altaria. This took roughly twenty trials to accomplish. Would not be able to KO Salamence, would roll to KO Kingdra. No utility in other matchups.



Wallace

(49): With Potion support (3) can go max Bulk Ups on Wailord by using Brick Break twice at the start to weaken Water Spout, Blizzard will not 2HKO. At +6 it OHKOs Wailord, OHKOs Whiscash, easily tanks Tentacruel's Hydro Pump and OHKOs will Earthquake, OHKOs Ludicolo, easily tanks Gyarados's Surf and OHKOs with Rock Tomb, and then either OHKOs Milotic immediately if above 50% HP or uses Potions until it gets a favourable damage roll. I honestly didn't expect this, thought the Hydro Pump at least would be able to OHKO Hera but only it and Milotic could even do half. What an absolute monster. All at only level 50 too.

(47): Loses the Double-Edge war to Wailord (unless Quick Claw cheeses lol), loses cleanly to Whiscash, loses cleanly to Gyarados, can't touch Milotic, can never beat Leech Seed+Evasion from Ludicolo, 3HKOs Tentacruel but is 3HKOed by Sludge Bomb back.

(47): Easy 2HKO vs Wailord, Whiscash is a nope, outspeeds and OHKOs Gyarados, outspeeds and 2HKOs Tentacruel - this one used Toxic t1 which suggests it might not have been able to OHKO with Hydro Pump but I'm uncertain, 3HKOs Ludicolo but is 2HKOed back, 3HKOs Milotic but is 2HKOed back. Good stuff given the 10 level disadvantage.

(47): Loses to everything, can 2HKO Gyarados and Ludicolo with Thunderbolt and Sludge Bomb respectively but gets 1 or 2HKOed by everything back so.

(47): It's Linoone, its way past the point of being able to do anything. Loses terribl to everything.

(48): Cannot set up on Wailord but can set up SD against an Amnesia using Whiscash as well as go to +2 or more depending on Double Teams vs Ludicolo, +6 will 2HKO each of Whiscash, Wailord, Milotic, and Gyarados and will OHKO Tentacruel and Ludicolo (+2 will do for this). Best case scenario as a result is getting one kill and most of the health of a second.



Post-Game Team Summary

lv 50, Swarm, Rash
159 / 145 / 98 / 69 / 107 / 102
Brick Break, Earthquake, Rock Tomb, Bulk Up

Comments: Let's recap. Cleanly sweeps the Flying Gym at a type disadvantage. Contributes well against the Psychic Gym at a type disadvantage in a double battle. Cleanly sweeps Juan. Cleanly sweeps Sidney. Sweeps Phoebe with minimal hassle. Cleanly sweeps Glacia. Sweeps 60% of Drake with one potion, cleanly sweeps if X Speeds are used. Sweeps Wallace with Potion support at a level disadvantage.

What else is there to say? This thing was an absolute buzzsaw and was disgustingly effective. It's tanking Milotic Surfs 8 levels below with a SDef reducing nature. It's tearing through the majority of the game on minimal boosts. It required zero training window as it swept Winona barely a few levels above catching. It's moveset came prepackaged via starting moves and TMs. You could not ask for a more efficient Pokemon, and almost nothing is more effective. The only reason this isn't S tier is because of its late availability. Clearly and definitively the best Fighting-type in the game over and above Breloom and Blaziken, and easily and obviously the absolute top of A tier.


lv 47, Static, Gentle
144 / 97 / 67 / 116 / 79 / 128
Thunderbolt, Bite, Return, Thunder Wave

Comments: Starts slowly as an Electrike until it picks up Spark, though it can function decently with Howl+Quick Attack as evidenced vs Wattson. Picks up after it evolves with an okay performance against Flannery and a good one against Norman. Comes into its own at the mid-game, doing great against Winona, well against T+L, great against Juan, and fairly well against each of Sidney, Phoebe, and Glacia. Falls short against Drake, but finishes well against Wallace.

Manectric is consistently effective throughout the game. It is self-sufficient for training purposes against the numerous flying and water-type Pokemon and provides consistent value against all of the major boss battles, even in poor matchups. It is never an exceptionally dominating force, but never fails to be a solid choice. Happily comfortable in B tier.


lv 48, Speed Boost, Lax, Soft Sand
142 / 111 / 69 / 64 / 57 / 182
Aerial Ace, Shadow Ball, Dig, Swords Dance

Comments: Ninjask has an odd path starting as a slow-leveling bulky attacker before evolving into a frail Swords Dance sweeper. Nincada's typing allows it to contribute well in secondary roles against Roxanne and Brawly, as well as against Wattson if it remains unevolved. As a Ninjask it finds that it is capable of sweeping or otherwise positively contributing against even unfavorable matchups if it can manage the circumstance accordingly, as with matchups against Flannery and Norman. Later in the game, is able to sweep Winona, sweep much of T+L, sweep Sidney, and sweep Phoebe, with a decent performance against Juan, though it can offer only minor efforts against the last three Elite Four.

Ninjask ends up performing well above its current E tier placing. It does not require assistance to sweep though many of its matchups though some middling matchups can rely on variance, and after evolution is consistently strong enough to be effective even without setup at level parity or superiority. As an attacker it is superior to Poochyena and tracks favorably to the lower ends of C tier - however the general ineffectiveness of Nincada, significant time investment to train it, and end-game frailty of Ninjask are more than enough to downgrade it. As a result, Nincada (Ninjask) should be confidently raised to D tier.


lv 47, Gentle, Huge Power, Quick Claw
167 / 68 / 77 / 64 / 100 / 56
Double-Edge, Waterfall (Surf), Brick Break, Dive (Rollout)

Comments: Azumarill shows a very distinct curve of an early peak at the time of evolution followed by a slow but consistent drop off into mediocrity by the end of the game. It performs effectively against all of the early gyms by virtue of its relative bulk and the powerful force of Rollout, and although it begins to drop off around Norman it is still able to show well against both with and Winona, whom Azumarill is able to sweep. The slow down starts to show as of Tate and Liza however as its power level begins to quickly fall off, no longer able to OHKO enemies. Is capable of fighting Sidney but for the rest of the game otherwise is only able to play a bit role, it can tank enemies with Potion support but cannot damage them effectively in a fast enough time.

Combat abilities probably track more closely to a C tier, comparable to something like Machoke or Golem. It isn't good enough long enough to be a true B tier. Of course, the kicker that cements it as a B is the significant HM role compression, particularly and especially covering the difficult Waterfall and Dive in addition to the more widespread Rock Smash, Strength, and Surf. Very little to dispute on this one, it's capable enough on its own but the HM compression pushes it up a level.


lv 47, Brave, Pickup
152 / 89 / 78 / 67 / 68 / 101
Strength, Surf, Ice Beam, Rock Smash

Comments: Take literally everything said about Azumarill and make it a bit worse. Clearly on the lower end of D tier in pure combat ability but HM compression and Pickup are more than sufficient to push it up into C tier.


lv 47, Levitate, Sassy
139 / 107 / 123 / 93 / 89 / 62
Sludge Bomb, Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, Toxic

Comments: Such a disappointment. Excellent nature, excellent flashy movepool, but awful performance.
Has a great matchup vs Winona, a decent one vs Juan, and a decent one vs Sidney, but rolls between mediocre to terrible against every other major battle. Poison/Fire/Electric turns out to be considerably worse coverage than it appears, missing out on hitting most Rock types, the common Numel family, the Barboach family, and Flygon for neutral damage, as well as struggling with any Poison, Ground, or Ghost type of moderate bulk. Has some struggles being self-sufficient as well, the lack of power relative to Grimer is very noticeable as is the lack of bulk relative to Swalot. Clearly the worst of the three. Based on its performance in major battles there is a reasonable argument that it might not even be better than Seviper and should fall to E as the worst Poison type. Should stay D for now, but its on the lower borderline and should fall if Seviper were to prove to be better.



Outstanding nominations:

- Heracross rise to A
- Nincada rise to D

- Treecko drop to B
- Spoink drop to D
- Skitty rise to E

- Zubat drop to D
- Wingull drop to C

Xator's approach to leveling is definitely experimental and I'm not sure I really agree with it, but by your own standards this is the one time it hasn't really made a difference.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Xator ran his Garde into the League at 46, which, according to you from last page, is a perfectly acceptable level to challenge the e4 at:

You seem to have misinterpreted my post. I said rather clearly that the level 46-48 range can beat the league but generally relies heavily on item use and that I try to test at level 50.

Putting something at level 46 for an E4 test is outright setting it up for failure, no less in comparison to mons 5-7 levels higher than it.

Xator's approach to leveling is definitely experimental and I'm not sure I really agree with it, but by your own standards this is the one time it hasn't really made a difference.

I don't want to get into an argument about methodology, suffice to say he's not the first to approach testing by equal experience, each time it has been brought up in multiple threads it has been shouted down as something unreasonable to expect for a typical user, by and large people raise by roughly equal levels.

I had hoped that his early underleveling would be corrected for the E4 and I'm very disappointed it was not. Putting a Pokemon in a position to fail is not an adequate way to test it, especially not when it has the capability to perform significantly better as has been evidenced by past tests.

edit: to be clear, Xator (and anyone testing) is welcome to his opinion and I do not intend to take away from the efforts of his tests - in my eyes his argument for Ralts to drop is firmly insufficient given the methodology of his testing was weighted so negatively against the subject.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

Roxanne is a bad matchup for Torchic (who can evolve into Combusken)...since when?

 

[ceal]

Putting something at level 46 for an E4 test is outright setting it up for failure, no less in comparison to mons 5-7 levels higher than it.

like how you did for your own gardevoir?

Juan

Magneton, Slaking, Pelipper, Blaziken are level 42; Gardevoir is level 43; Cradily is level 44

Magneton: Murder Luvdisc, take 20% back. Can't fight Whiscash. Murder Sealeo. Murder Crawdaunt. Runs about to a draw with Kingdra, Water Pulse and Thunderbolt are both rolls to 2HKO, it has Double Team, you have Thunder Wave. Rounds out to about a B+ performance.

Slaking: Murder Luvdisc. Return is a roll to OHKO Whiscash, Earthquake is less than 20% if you miss. Return 2HKOs Sealeo, Hyper Beam OHKO, Aurora Beam does the same amount as Whiscash EQ. The nice thing about Truant is you have a designated healing turn. See previous for Crawdaunt except you use Hyper Beam because Crabhammer hurts more. Truant vs Kingdra turn 1, OHKO with Hyper Beam. You clean sweep *through Truant* with one Potion use. Slaking is ridiculous. Has to be an S tier performance yeah?

Pelipper: Luvdisc soloed me :/ - Fly is a 3HKO and Attract+Confusion is rough to hit through. Pelipper smacks Whiscash even with Amnesia as it likes to help you with Rain Dance. You lose to Sealeo's Aurora Beam though, unless you have the Rain boost going. Fly is a 5HKO vs Crawdaunt which means you just take a bunch of damage since Crawdaunt's moveset blows. You can never do enough damage to break Kingdra's Rest, especially with evasion boosts. D tier showing, and that only because Crawdaunt sucks.

Blaziken: A showing. You can get a Bulk Up vs Luvdisc most of the time, though occasionally it will RNG you, and then you beat the first four with boosted Brick Breaks, but Kingdra outspeeds and smashes you with Water Pulse.

Gardevoir: Luvdisc is zero threat, even its confusion. Went to +3, clean swept. S tier. Checked it again, +2 clean sweeps. +1 just misses the KO on Whiscash and Kingdra.

Cradily: Giga Drain OHKOs Luvdisc. 2HKOs Sealeo, you heal off most of the damage Aurora Beam does. You lose to Kingdra hard. Giga Drain OHKOs Whiscash. 2HKOs Crawdaunt. B+ showing.

Pre-E4 Team Status, post 3 level grind

Pelipper lv 47
122 / 56 / 115 / 110 / 88 / 86
Surf, Fly, Ice Beam, Protect

Comments: Plays more like a water than a bird. Drop to C tier predominantly because of its availability, because its typing makes it a great HM user, and its Surf and Ice Beam are pretty powerful. If it came late-game it would be D tier. A pretty decent team support on the whole, but should never have ever seen B tier.


Slaking lv 47
215 / 179 / 115 / 122 / 71 / 110
Return, Shadow Ball, Hyper Beam, Bulk Up

Comments: Have to argue this for a rise to C tier. The Slakoth period is very bad but Vigoroth is dominant and Slaking in honestly pretty much close to as dominant as Vigoroth, the stats are just so insane that it overcomes Truant 9 times out of 10. I'm honestly on the fence about thinking it should even be B tier, but Truant is a serious handicap and I could only support B if it dominates the E4 too. But the Slakoth period and Truant shouldn't be enough to push down and otherwise completely dominating game.


Blaziken lv 47
155 / 140 / 69 / 140 / 78 / 101
Flamethrower, Brick Break, Earthquake, Bulk Up

Comments: Honestly, at the end of the day this is just totally subjective whether you want this in S or A, its right on the borderline. I would prefer it in A but there's no begrudgement of anyone who thinks it is S. That being said, Blaziken and Breloom should be in the same tier whether its S or A. Having run them both I wholeheartedly believe that Breloom is the better Pokemon, performing better in the early and late game while Blaziken edges in the middle game. They're both highly effective but one is better than the other, and I believe now as I did when I used it that Breloom should rise to S.


Gardevoir lv 47
141 / 68 / 85 / 150 / 118 / 92
Psychic / Thunderbolt / Double Team / Calm Mind

Comments: S tier in a goddamn heartbeat. The second best Pokemon you can have on your team outside of Swampert. Stomps Brawly, stomps Wattson, stomps Flannery, stomps Winona, stomps Juan, stomps Rival battles, stomps Magma/Aqua battles, beats Roxanne if you know what you're doing, and shows well against T+L. The singular bad matchup in the game for it (to this point) is Norman. The Ralts period is literally two levels and then you're off and moving, the Kirlia slow down is the few levels before you make Gardevoir and that's honestly no different than the type of slow down Combusken and Marshtomp experience. An absolute monster and completely deserving of standing alongside Alakazam in S rank.


Cradily lv 47
158 / 93 / 99 / 90 / 117 / 62
Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb / Secret Power / Toxic

Comments: E tier is appropriate. Definitely has some selling points and things it can do but the fact that I spent approximately 4 levels of actual battling with it speaks volumes about what it can do. I'd rather use Beautifly ;-; (or a Shiny Dustox!)


Magneton lv 47
109 / 80 / 109 / 132 / 73 / 91
Thunderbolt / Hyper Beam / Hidden Power Water / Thunder Wave

Comments: B is good. Don't have much to say, it does what the label says on the box. If it had an extra 20 base HP it would be A. But it doesn't.

Summary as of pre-E4:

Gardevoir to S
Breloom to S
Blaziken to be in the same tier as Breloom, either S or A
Slaking to C
Pelipper to C
Magneton to stay B
Cradily to stay E


P.S. I feel like I need to take a moment to boost Slaking some more. One of my criticisms of Slaking in Tate+Liza was that it was vulnerable to Psychic focus fires. Setting aside Cradily and Gardevoir who resists Psychic, Pelipper is a close comparable to relative special bulk, both in the average range. Only difference is Slaking has NINETY more HP. I criticized Slaking in that regard, but perspective is important in how I must stress how absolutely stupid ridiculous its raw stat totals are.

you ran garde into league at 47 (as well as every other mon on your team), and while you blame Xator's dissatisfaction with it at league on its supposed underleveledness you found it to be S even after "setting it up for failure". So what's the difference maker?