Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

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Generally speaking, we obtain a pokemon we are testing at the earliest possible moment.
I'm not so sure I agree with this as its own rule? We tend to just do that either because there's no better point or it's the only point, and we don't hesitate to 'break' that rule when it comes to things like Electrike.
 
Because getting a Combusken by Roxanne is pretty inefficient? I’m fairly sure this has been pointed out numerous times. Again, we are trying to be minimalistic as possible. The more work you put into a specific mon, it suffers due to that effort required for the expected payout.

Generally speaking, we obtain a pokemon we are testing at the earliest possible moment. There are exceptions to this of course, some examples being the Level 50 Karp in HGSS or bypassing Tentacool for Cruel in GSC/HGSS. In Cool/Cruel case however the MUs don’t really matter as Cool wasn’t going to accomplish much in the first 4 Gyms and Cruel is best obtained outside of Cianwood so the battle performance for the entire line is unaffected and we can just use a past Cool performance to cover Cruel’s non existent MUs.

While this is a fair point, most casuals are gonna know that Fighting trounces Rock. Honestly speaking this point is really moot and just needs to be dropped. It’s gone on long enough and the answers have been provided.
Yes, and as others have also pointed out, it's still enough to make Torchic's Roxanne matchup a neutral one and not a bad one.

Just mention that it's possible but ''inefficient''. That's a compromise.

You still are dodging the question of what a player is supposed to do if they don't have other Pokemon to beat Roxanne. Why should they catch Pokemon they don't want (I can tell you I never cared about the Grass or Water-types in the early game, minus Marill in Emerald and she's not available that early in RS) when Torchic can become Combusken with far less effort even with a second team member present?

I'm not so sure I agree with this as its own rule? We tend to just do that either because there's no better point or it's the only point, and we don't hesitate to 'break' that rule when it comes to things like Electrike.
It also makes no sense to catch Pokemon ''the earliest you can find them'' when later iterations of their Pokemon are objectively better not just as individuals but also for your team. Trying to go through Violet City itself with Bellsprout is torture due to the Flying-types and rival Bellsprouts there.

Trying to go through Union Cave with a Route 32 Bellsprout? Easy as pie minus Vulpix, and they will get close to your levels very easily off that alone. Even better, they also arrive in time to clinch a problematic matchup against Hiker Anthony (who can crush your team if you don't have resists to his Geodude and Machop - both of who are reasonably strong and have their STABs) and all major matchups where they can still be useful: e.g. Whitney, Chuck, Pryce, and potentially your rival's second battle in Azalea Town if they have a Croconaw, etc. The same is ironically true for other early-game appearing mons like Poliwag and Phanpy that struggle immensely in the Sprout Tower without babying and need healing support at least to beat Falkner - funny how no one considers the need for a Potion inefficient when it literally uses more resources than training a few levels up lol. They crush Union Cave.
 
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I'm not so sure I agree with this as its own rule? We tend to just do that either because there's no better point or it's the only point, and we don't hesitate to 'break' that rule when it comes to things like Electrike.
We do however, penalize those cases because of the inherent change in availability.
 

Merritt

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We do however, penalize those cases because of the inherent change in availability.
Pretty much. Cases where it's better to pick it up later generally require their earlier version contributions to be incredibly mediocre compared to the additional effort they require to raise them, so it's generally either Pokemon that are profoundly terrible to raise up or provide very little early on so grabbing them with free levels is better.

An example of something that doesn't fall into this is Zubat - it's maybe a little better to catch later on but the loss of friendship gains makes it questionable since at that point Golbat is fairly mediocre.
 

Merritt

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Merritt You haven't addressed my nomination or my logs so far. What do you think?
B on both Ralts and Torchic is so far from other people's experiences that it's not going to happen, I'd prefer not to cut discussion short by making a call otherwise (on dropping Ralts to A to clarify).
 
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B on both Ralts and Torchic is so far from other people's experiences that it's not going to happen, I'd prefer not to cut discussion short by making a call otherwise.
My experience tells me B, but I can settle for Ralts as A as long as it is not S, which I don't think it belongs to at all, and which is what I stated on my final conclusion.

What do the others think, though? I know Texas doesn't agree but I feel that, according to what's explicitly stated in the definitions of each tier, Ralts doesn't belong there.
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in response to a few things in the recent discussion
Thanks for clarifying! I'd argue it could also potentially have been better - you yourself said Combusken could make it to L16 before Roxanne if solo.

Is it restrictive? Probably, but it's also the early game where you have relatively few Pokemon choices that are actually good. Your Pokemon will have all the other gym badges to catch up, focusing on Torchic for a grand total of one badge doesn't seem like a problem to me.

I think it should be a neutral matchup as someone stated.
i don't know, man, i'd much, much rather use shroomish than torchic. shroomish at least reaches tier 3 stats four gyms before torchic lol

I think you're overestimating the extent of which underleveled Pokémon can deal with later challenges to suggest catching up later (especially in the wilds). Now, this is just personal experience, but my friend who is a streamer has been playing Emerald a couple of days ago and she, too, evolved her Torchic to Combusken to defeat Roxanne, and neglected the rest of her team as a result. What happened was that the rest of her Pokémon were miserably mauled by the Aqua Team member that kidnapped Peeko. Later on, once she arrived in Dewford, she realized that Combusken was the only team member that could actually fight, and she then resorted to grinding the rest of her team on live transmission. Had she not found a Sableye, then I don't think she'd have defeated Brawly by now because wild battles level up at a glacial pace.

She took two hours from arriving to Rustboro to clearing Dewford's Gym. That's definitely not efficient.
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Yeah item abuse (be it healing items or X items) is practically a requirement for nearly any full team sweep to be possible. Even undisputed S Rank Swampert will be reliant on items if it wants to clean sweep the post-Surf bosses. If anything, any post-Surf clean sweep that can be done without much/any item abuse should be more notable. For example, Persim Berry + Mach Punch Breloom has a good chance to sweep Sidney on turn 1 if he Swaggers into your Bulk Up, whereas Girafarig can spam Calm Minds on one of RS Phoebe's Banettes and wipe her out.

Even in the context of item spam, Gardevoir typically requires less items than most since its moveset and bulk are plenty sufficient, such as its Thunderbolt access meaning it needs less Calm Minds to secure wins vs Water-typed or Psychic-resistant bosses, or its bulk letting it consume less healing items during its boosting phase. I didn't even need X items in most of the fights that I used it in (like Juan, Drake, and Steven); I just acknowledged that each X Defend / X Speed can save me 1 or 2 Hyper Potions in the long run, which is obviously more efficient in terms of both time and cost. Even if you don't try to item abuse/sweep with Gardevoir (though you definitely should if given the opportunity because why wouldn't you), it's still more than capable of trading blows in a neutral fight.

I will admit this though, most of my success with Gardevoir have been on 2/3 mon teams; if a larger team size's inability to properly accommodate for Gardevoir's slow growth rate becomes enough of a factor to contend against its S Rank placement, I wouldn't argue against it too much since I don't have too much testing in that regard, though I will still insist that Gardevoir is superior than every other A Rank mon at least.
the thing though is that, as my videos showcase, alakazam can pull those sweeps off

if mudkip can't as you describe, then that's probably justification to dispute its s rank placement
 
the thing though is that, as my videos showcase, alakazam can pull those sweeps off

if mudkip can't as you describe, then that's probably justification to dispute its s rank placement
The truth is that it's not that Mudkip or Ralts aren't S, comparing *anything* to Alakazam ends with them paling in comparison.

Alakazam is one of the most broken in-game mons to ever exist.

It is S-Tier in every single game between Gens 1-4 and utterly eclipses anything in those games.
 
My experience tells me B, but I can settle for Ralts as A as long as it is not S, which I don't think it belongs to at all, and which is what I stated on my final conclusion.

What do the others think, though? I know Texas doesn't agree but I feel that, according to what's explicitly stated in the definitions of each tier, Ralts doesn't belong there.
As I wrote earlier, I would like to see Ralts in the same tier as Zangoose. Whether it be A tier or S tier, doesn't matter to me.

the thing though is that, as my videos showcase, alakazam can pull those sweeps off

if mudkip can't as you describe, then that's probably justification to dispute its s rank placement
Let me quote the original post: "We do not decide the tiering of one Pokémon based on its performance relative to another Pokémon"
Comparing anything to Alakazam is just unfair.
 
My experience tells me B, but I can settle for Ralts as A as long as it is not S, which I don't think it belongs to at all, and which is what I stated on my final conclusion.

What do the others think, though? I know Texas doesn't agree but I feel that, according to what's explicitly stated in the definitions of each tier, Ralts doesn't belong there.
I used Ralts in my run through Ruby last year, and Ralts contributed to almost every fight in the game. I found it was pretty self sufficient once it learned Confusion, clearing wilds and route trainers with ease from that point on. I could count on Ralts to take out two or three of a boss's Pokémon on it's own (mashing the Psychic / Shock Wave buttons). All it needs to be dominant, in my opinion, is an electric move. Now, I was not trying to sweep any fight with it, but I was not really trying to. Usually I don't play with potions / X items, so Ralts being able to take out a substantial chunk of the opponents team on its own is enough to give it a commanding performance in my eyes. Ralts was always a Pokémon I could count on in a battle and I never felt like it had any issues.

From my perspective, Ralts fits the definition of an S-tier Pokémon, I never was left wanting for more while using it. Ralts handled everything I needed it to take out and more. If y'all want I can run through the game again sometime in the next few days to provide logs and more specific notes behind my thoughts. However, in my experience playing RSE Ralts consistently impresses me with how much it can take on. Ralts often is in a position where it can take out multiple Pokémon that the boss has, and needs little support or items to excel in battles. I've always had Ralts put in a dominant performance, and after looking at the other tests and evidence in this thread, I think it fits best in the S-tier.
 
I guess I... 'vote' for Ralts to be S-rank, too? I figured it was settled but either way I just found it to fit that rank very well when I used it. I don't really have much to say as everyone else covered what I would; at worst I feel it's A-rank bordering on S. I would certainly at least say that the order of S-rank is Abra > Mudkip > Ralts.
 

Merritt

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I think you're overestimating the extent of which underleveled Pokémon can deal with later challenges to suggest catching up later (especially in the wilds). Now, this is just personal experience, but my friend who is a streamer has been playing Emerald a couple of days ago and she, too, evolved her Torchic to Combusken to defeat Roxanne, and neglected the rest of her team as a result. What happened was that the rest of her Pokémon were miserably mauled by the Aqua Team member that kidnapped Peeko. Later on, once she arrived in Dewford, she realized that Combusken was the only team member that could actually fight, and she then resorted to grinding the rest of her team on live transmission. Had she not found a Sableye, then I don't think she'd have defeated Brawly by now because wild battles level up at a glacial pace.

She took two hours from arriving to Rustboro to clearing Dewford's Gym. That's definitely not efficient.
I'm mostly using this as a jumping off point for something I've said before in the thread but Brawly is the major battle to hold against Pokemon the least (besides the optional Rival battles in Rustboro and Lilycove). If a Pokemon can beat it early that's great, bonus points to them, otherwise Brawly is easily skippable until much later in the game and pretty much anything can take him out.

I'd personally dispute the Zam>Mudkip feeling some people have, Mudkip's got overall much more positive matchups as well as 0 downtime unlike Alakazam, as well as clearing one of the more annoying major battles (Wattson) easily. Of course utility also helps, since Swampert provides HM coverage.

S+ is not being considered, please don't mention it again in seriousness or as a joke.
 

Its_A_Random

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Yet another person adding onto the pile of tests being conducted with Ralts here.

Mudkip is Lax


I haven't really done much with Mudkip in that not much else will probably be found (but I will see what I can find, my microscope is more on Ralts than anything), but I did find some new insights into earlygame Ralts, though (Trace variant, if you are interested).

Roxanne

So I found a method of getting pass Roxanne that does not involve Double Team, but it does involve X-Items. Starting at Lv10, two X-Defends + good bulk helps Ralts live the initial assault, Potion up and another X-Defend and then Roxanne's Pokémon start spamming Defence Curl / Harden for whatever reason. This allows you to just sit there and spam Confusion to your heart's content. I did also Growl Nosepass once but that was unneeded after it hit itself in confusion four times in a row. Its Tackle did nothing of note and being slower meant no Rock Tomb. You could use the free X-Special on Route 116 to speed up this fight, but either way it's death by a thousand cuts for Roxanne. Inefficient Solo. The Bullet Seed TM gives $1500 Poké that nearly covers the $1650 Poké for three X-Defends. I don't remember if it was a one-potion or two-potion fight.

Either way, the point is Double Team isn't necessary for Ralts to solo Roxanne, but not everyone likes X-Items, so...

Brawly
I forgot to capture a graphic here, but I did this fight at Lv15, soloing with one X-Defend and an Oran Berry. Machop is two shot, Meditite takes several hits, but spammed Focus Punch to no avail, and Makuhita dealt 12 DMG at +0 with Vital Throw, a three shot with Confusion after Sitrus Berry or something like that. The free X-Special from Route 116 can speed up this fight as well.


Either way, earlygame Ralts isn't that awful, but it takes quite a while to get going. I'll reserve my judgement on S or A until I finish the playthrough. I do also plan to put a couple of others outside of Ralts and Mudkip but I'll talk about those with impressions when I'm at a stage to do so. I would not consider what I am doing at the moment to be a green flag or something of the sort, but I did want to post some of my own insights into Ralts (through to post-Brawly) that also hold some interesting item-based optimisations for Ralts solos in the earlygame.

 
Alright, boys. I have a massive summary of early and midgame for my newest playthrough. I saw what Pokemon are debated (including my suggestion of Solrock) and decided to run with them.

At the beginning, I pick Quirky Torchic. Later, I catch Calm Ralts (found two within 30 encounters). Cleaning routes goes relatively well but Ralts' hunger for experience coupled with its inability to attack for the first few levels suck. After clearing everything around Rustboro I challenge the gym.
Torchic (14lv): As expected, it can't deal with anything. Even Geodudes hit it hard. Extremely bad performance.

Ralts (12lv):
Requires a lot of items and setting up but can realistically sweep. After one Growl, Geodude has trouble defeating Ralts with 3 rock attacks. Similarly to Its A Random, I have noticed that Nosepass stops attacking in certain circumstances. You don't need X Defence, just use Growl a couple of times. Confusion 3HKOs Geodudes and 8HKOs Nosepass (without counting Oran Berry). Average performance since it takes a while.

Torchic (15lv): Ember 8HKOs Torkoal. The turtle is even more worthless and can't beat my chicken. Sadly, Mudkip is not worthless and defeats Torchic without any problems. Bad/average performance.

Ralts (13lv):
Has a good chance of sweeping May. Confusion 4HKOs Torkoal and 5HKOs Mudkip. Double Team is recommended. Ember has a chance to 2HKO Ralts but Torkoal almost never used it (for some reason, it likes to spam Curse). Mudkip is even less threatening. Good performance.

Combusken (16lv): It has a chance to sweep everything but needs items (held Oran Berry, X Attack/Super Potions). Machop is defeated by two Double Kicks with or without a boost. Makuhita is 2HKOed only if you use X Attack (3HKOed counting Sitrus Berry). Makuhita's Vital Throw fails to 2HKO Combusken without boosts but does so on +1 stage. Average/good performance.

Ralts (16lv):
It can sweep Brawly with held Oran Berry and X special pretty comfortably. +1 Confusion 2HKOs Machop and Makuhita (3HKOs counting Sitrus Berry). There are too many elements that work in your favour - possible critical, possible confusion, AI getting greedy with Bulk Ups. It's a good idea to use one Growl against Makuhita if Ralts has low health. If Makuhita hits Ralts, it survives, gets a heal from Oran Berry and can tank +1 Vital Throw later. Very good performance.

I teach Combusken Bulk Up. After that, comes route cleaning which goes smoothly. Kirlia visibly eats more experience but it's not a problem in two Pokemon team.
Combusken (20lv): Roflstomps May without problems. Three Bulk Ups allows it to oneshot everything. Lombre doesn't mind the set up, it even gently massages you with Astonish or Absorb. Extremely good performance.

Kirlia (20lv):
Takes care of Lombre and Slugma without problems. Loses to Marshtomp unless you stack Double Team on Lombre and use items (X Defense turns 2HKO from Mud Shot into 3HKO). Good performance but slow.

I decide to completely skip Route 117 and bicycle road to not overlevel my team before upcoming battle.
Combusken (24lv): One Bulk Up lets it beat Voltorb with one hit. Voltorb can't do much in two turns (even with Self-destruct). Paralyze from Spark can be countered by held Cheri Berry. Adding another 3 Bulk Ups against safe Manectric lets Combusken oneshot everything with Double Kick. Magneton and Manectric outspeed Combusken but they don't deal great damage. Manectric 3HKOs with Shock Wave so the only thing slowing you down is parahax - which drains more time and healing items but do not stop the sweep. Also, you don't need to go up to +4 Attack. +1 is enough to oneshot Manectrike, Voltorb and Magneton while allowing 2HKO on Manectric (but you spend some time watching it being healed every turn). Good performance.

Kirlia (23lv):
Voltorb 4HKOs with STABs but can oneshot with Self-destruct (I survived once so it is not a certain 1HKO). That means that Kirlia fails to beat Voltorb without setting up because AI just outspeeds you and blows up on you when it is in yellow. You need +4 SpA to beat Voltorb in one hit and set up more on safer Electrike. At +6 SpA, Kirlia defeats both Manectric and Magneton in two hits (the latter is barely within 2HKO range though). Sweep is entirely possible but you will have to prepare with Calm Minds, use items and pray that AI does not decide to use Self-destruct at full HP (which happened once every 4/5 tries). Bad performance. There is too much that can go wrong even with set up. Beating only Manectrike reliably is not noteworthy.

I teach Kirlia Shock Wave. Again, I skip Route 117, bicycle road and Winstrate family to not completely overlevel my enemies. Kirlia fails to OHKO some NFE Pokemon 7 levels below it with Confusion (even after 1 Calm Mind). I catch 17lv Impish Seviper and teach it Dig. This thing quickly becomes insane, killing everything on Route 114 and gaining 6 level ups with only needing to heal twice. In Meteor Falls, I catch 16lv Docile Solrock and clear Route 117 with it.
Combusken (29lv): +2 Double Kick easily deals with Mightyena and 2HKOs Camerupt who couldn't even defeat me with Magnitude 8 (+2 Def hooray). Zubat, ironically, is the biggest threat if it hits with Supersonic. Very good performance. Sand Attack barely mattered in any of my attempts.

Kirlia (29lv): Reliably takes care of Mightyena and Zubat. Just pop 2 Calm Minds and Mightyena falls to 2 Shock Waves (Bite can't deal with SpDef boosts). If Kirlia hits Camerupt (despite Sand Attacks) with Psychic, it deals huge amount of damage, sending it right to the red zone. +3 SpA Psychic oneshots Camerupt. Good performance. Enemy needs to crit you or you need to miss against Camerupt who retaliates with big boy Magnitude number to stop you.

Seviper (24lv): Simply can't deal with Mightyena - Bite 4HKOs Seviper whose -1 Poison Tail does almost nothing (X Attack turns it into 4HKO if you do not count Maxie's Super Potion). Camerupt is a big no. Beats Zubat :). Bad performance.

Solrock (24lv):
-1 Rock Throw 5HKOs Mightyena who 2HKOs back with Bite. After someone else deals with Mightyena, Solrock easily takes Camerupt (Rock Throw 4HKOs while Ember does jack shit) and Zubat with no items. Average/good performance.

Combusken (29lv): After one Bulk Up, Numel is OHKO with Double Kick. Magnitude 8 didn't even take half of Combusken's HP in one of my attempts. +4 Double Kick OHKOs Camerupt and 2HKOs Torkoal. Torkoal can only fight back with hax (paralyze from Body Slam or Attract) and sun boosted Overheat which takes like 65-70% of Combusken's HP. Good performance.

Kirlia (29lv):
Takes out Numel with 2 Psychic attacks (or one if you use Calm Mind). You can safely set up on Slugma to +5 and sweep the whole battle. Extremely good performance. The only thing stopping you are crits.

Seviper (27lv): A nasty battle. Dig beats Numel in 2 hits, Slugma in 1 and Camerupt in 3. X Attack allows Seviper to OHKO Numel and 2HKO Camerupt but it's risky. Numel can deal massive damage with Magnitude when you are underground. Camerupt removes 90% of your health with Overheat (without counting Sun BTW). You can forget about Torkoal, even at +1 Seviper barely scratched it with Dig (looked like 3-4HKO range). Overall, bad/average performance.

Solrock (27lv): Sweeps reliably by spamming Rock Throw. 2HKOs Numel, 1HKOs Slugma, 3HKOs Camerupt and 3HKOs Torkoal (X Attack turn 3HKOs into 2HKOs). For some reason AI rarely uses Overheat despite the fact that Torkoal deals ~60 damage with it under sun effect (about 80% of Solrock's HP). Overheat, in general, is the only thing stopping your sweep Good performance.

Combusken (30lv): Oneshots Spinda without boosts. Oneshots Vigoroth and Linoone at +1. Defeats Slaking in two hits at +2 (just don't attack on first turn due to Counter). Only things stopping Combusken are crits (mainly from Slash) while you are setting up on Vigoroth/Linoone. At least one healing item is mandatory. X Speed is recommended since it allows you to outspeed Vigoroth and Linoone who are complete bastards if they sneak a critical in before Slaking. Slaking is also slower when Combusken is at +1. Good performance.

Gardevoir (30lv):
Hahahahahahaha. Traces Own Tempo and sets up with no problems. At +2 oneshots everything bar Slaking who can't even defeat it with Facade (even factoring in Spinda's previous attack). At +4 roflstomps the gym. Extremely good performance.

Seviper (30lv): It has miserable time without items. Poison Tail and Crunch 3HKO Spinda, Vigoroth and Linoone. After X Special/X Attack those turn into shaky 2HKOs (saw Linoone survive after two +1 Crunches). It can tank hits relatively well. Psybeam and Facade can't reliably 3HKO it back. Slaking... if you think you can just cheese it with Dig, you are wrong. You will run out of PP before it is defeated. Slaking 2HKOs back so with healing items you can sweep. Bad performance. With heavy item support (several healing items and 1/2 X items) you can sweep. Without any item support, Seviper barely takes out one Pokemon.

Solrock (30lv): 2HKOs Spinda with Rock Throw and 2HKOs Vigoroth and Linoone after using one X Attack. Linoone can't do anything while Vigoroth 3HKOs with Faint Attack. Forget about defeating Slaking. +1 Rock Throw does jack shit to it and Slaking can retaliate with Faint Attack which easily takes Solrock out in two hits. Average performance. With X Attack and one healing item you can take out 3/4 of Norman's team with Solrock.

That's all for now. My thoughts and nominations will be presented after I'm done with lategame as well. I plan to use Chinchou since I seriously doubt its placement in B tier considering its late availaibility and mediocre stats.
 
Continuation. Solrock's power is falling - it can't OHKO anything that is not weak to it. The same can be said about Seviper so I decided to fix these issues. I swim south to teach Seviper Sludge Bomb and pick up Ice beam from Abandoned Ship. I skip Trick House, acquire Thunderbolt from New Mauville and immediately give it to Gardevoir. Since I have 125k money I exchange 70k Pokedollars for Psychic and give it to Solrock. Now everything is good again.
Combusken (35lv): 2HKOs Marshtomp and Lombre without boosts. +1 Double Kick oneshots Lombre. +3 Double Kick oneshots Marshtomp. There is no risk setting up against Lombre unless it gets 3 criticals in a row. Slugma is a meme. Very good performance.

Gardevoir (35lv):
Psychic oneshots Lombre and Slugma while putting Marshtomp in red zone. +1 Psychic guarantees clean sweep. Extremely good perfomance.

Seviper (35lv):
After using X Special on Fake Out turn, Seviper oneshots Lombre with Sludge Bomb, twoshots Marshtomp with Crunch and oneshots Slugma with Dig. Without X Special it needs healing against Marshtomp since it 3HKOs Seviper with Mud Shot. Good performance.

Solrock (35lv):
Psychic 2HKOs Lombre who can't fight back (Absorb does pitiful damage). Rock Throw takes care of Slugma. Psychic 3HKOs Marshtomp who can't fight back. Very good performance.

Feeling that Peck overstayed its welcome, I change it to Strength.
Blaziken (37lv): Fails to oneshot Swablu but one Bulk Up changes that. Skarmory and Tropius fall to single Blaze Kick. Strength 2HKOs Pelipper and 3HKOs Altaria (one Bulk Up changes it to 2HKO). Pelipper's Water Gun barely 4HKOs. Altaria's Earthquake fails to 3HKO back if you got +1 Def buff earlier. Worst case scenario, you can get haxxed by Sand Attack/Supersonic but those don't stop the sweep (only boosted critical Earthquake can). Very good performance.

Gardevoir (36lv):
A true no-brainer. Thunderbolt OHKOs Swablu, Pelipper and Skarmory. Psychic 2HKOs Tropius who can't fight back and 3HKOs Altaria who deals too little damage with Earthquake to matter at this point. If you Calm Mind on the first turn, Psychic 2HKOs Altaria. The sweep is reliable since you remove RNG elements (Pelipper's Supersonic and Skarmory's Sand-Attack) with one shot. Extremely good performance.

Seviper (37lv):
Sludge Bomb 1HKOs Swablu and 2-3HKOs Altaria who can 3HKO back with Earthquake (2HKO after Dragon Dance). Skarmory is a problem - Crunch 6HKOs while Skarmory can hax you with Sand-Attack or outdamage you with Steel Wing (which 5HKOs). If you have Flamethrower (which I specifically went back for to check it in two attempts) it's an easy 2HKO. Tropius is defeated with one Sludge Bomb and Pelipper with two so they pose no problems. By the way, Seviper outspeeds everyone. Good performance. If you have a Flamethrower, only Altaria is (barely) risky. If you don't have a Flamethrower, Skarmory drains your healing items but is doable.

Solrock (36lv): After using one Cosmic Power against Swablu, Rock Throw OHKOs. Tropius barely takes half of Solrock's HP with Solarbeam (which was rarely used in most of my attempts) while fainting to two Rock Throws. Pelipper and Skarmory do even less. The former can 4HKO with Water Gun but loses to two Rock Throws. Skarmory struggles to even 4HKO Solrock with Steel Wing while losing to 4 Rock Throws or 3 Rock Slides (tested both). Altaria falls to two uses of either of rock attacks and can't do much to fight back. It's worth noting that Solrock outspeeds everything here so the sweep is very easy with one Cosmic Power and one Hyper Potion if you get unlucky. Very good performance.

Seeing how overleveled my Pokemon are, I start skipping trainers on Route 120 and Mt. Pyre. After that, I get Giga Drain on Route 123 and immediately go back north. In Lilycove, May's battle is not worth going into details. My team (38lv Blaziken, 37lv Gardevoir, 38lv Seviper and 38lv Solrock) realiably sweeps her with not setup or items. The same goes for Tabitha in Magma Hideout (38lv Blaziken, 39lv Gardevoir, 38lv Seviper and 38lv Solrock).
Blaziken (38lv): 2HKOs Mightyena with -1 Double Kick. Camerupt is a huge problem since it oneshots Blaziken with Earthquake while requiring 3 uses of Double Kick to go down. Crobat eats 2-3 Blaze Kicks before going down while easily 2HKOing you with flying STABs. The easiest solution is to Bulk Up 5 times against Mightyena (3 times if you get Swaggered) which will allow Blaziken to oneshot everything (using Strength against Crobat) and survive everything (excluding super efffective criticals). Setting up is relatively safe if you give Blaziken Persim Berry. Good performance.

Gardevoir (39lv):
Without boosts, Thunderbolt 2HKOs Mightyena while Psychic OHKOs Crobat and 2HKOs Camerupt. Since the last one deals heavy damage with Earthquake (possible 2HKO on Gardevoir) it's worth setting up 2 Calm Minds on Mightyena/Crobat who don't do much (Wing Attack 4HKOs). Two uses of Scary Face from Mightyena is problematic since it allows Camerupt to outspeed you but besides that (and confuse) there is nothing to watch out for. Very good performance.

Seviper (39lv):
Gave it Persim Berry to hold. Sludge Bomb 3HKOs Mightyena in normal circumstances but, most of the time, two shots were enough thanks to Swagger. Camerupt is a big no. +2 Dig doesn't even defeat it while Earthquake has a big chance to oneshot you (even above ground). Crobat is an even match up for Seviper - they both 4HKO each other with their best moves but Crobat is faster. Bad/average performance.

Solrock (38lv):
Give it a Persim Berry and laugh while spamming Rock Slide. It 3HKOs Mightyena, 2HKOs Crobat and 3HKOs Camerupt without a boost (which you will most likely get anyway so change it to 2HKO, 1HKO and 2HKO respectively). Mightyena can't touch Solrock. Crobat 3HKOs with Bite but without flinch has no chance. Camerupt's AI likes to spam useless moves instead of its own Rock Slide which doesn't do much damage anyway. Worst case scenario, you will get confused twice and will need to use one healing item. Very good performance.

After that battle, my brain wakes up and reminds me that I forgot to pick up Fire Blast for Blaziken. I clear Aqua Hideout, Route 124, Route 125 and challenge Mossdeep Gym.
Very large damage rolls in this battle. The same attack may take less than 40% of enemy's HP but might take more than 50%.
Blaziken (41lv): 2HKOs Xatu and Claydol with Fire Blast (even sending Xatu to the red zone) and 3HKOs Lunatone. Solrock goes down with two or three attacks depending on your luck. Sadly, it can't take two hits from anything (but it does survive one hit from anything too). Very bad/bad performance. It will most likely defeat one Pokemon and faint soon after.

Gardevoir (41lv): If Gardevoir traces Levitate then you are golden since nothing can touch it. If you trace Synchronize, Claydol's Earthquake takes 40-45% of Gardevoir's HP and is the main problem in this battle. Unboosted Thunderbolt sends Xatu to the red zone while 3HKOing both Lunatone and Solrock. Unboosted Psychic 4HKOs Claydol. There is no reason to not Calm Mind at least once. +1 Thunderbolt OHKOs Xatu while 2HKOing Lunatone and Solrock. +1 Psychic 3HKOs Claydol which is damn impressive in my eyes. Good performance. With traced Levitate, I would even call it a very good performance.

Seviper (41lv):
Seviper can't accomplish anything. It is able to survive one Earthquake but can't achieve the same thing when hit by Psychic. Crunch 2HKOs Solrock but fails to do the same against Lunatone or Claydol. Couldn't get data on Xatu since it never survived facing it. Very bad performance.

Solrock (41lv):
Rock Slide is the only move that matters here. It 2-3HKOs Xatu, barely scratches Claydol, 6HKOs Solrock and 4-5HKOs Lunatone. This might seem bad but Solrock tanks attacks like they are nothing. For two attempts, I decided to spam Rock Slide while Gardevoir was Calm Minding all the time. Twice, Solrock alone defeated Xatu and brought down both Claydol and Solrock to yellow zone before fainting. Its only weakness is Solarbeam (which sends it to the red zone) since Psychics take only 20-30% of its health. Overall, good performance. For the whole battle it provides help with Rock Slide flinches while usually requiring only one Hyper Potion. Other possible tactic is spamming Cosmic Power and providing item support for its ally so it can sweep.


This one is hell to describe. There are too many different factors that change outcomes. Reflect from Metang reduces incoming damage. Swagger makes attacks hit harder. Intimidate makes attack hit softer. Confuse is everywhere. Anyway, I have noticed something important - Maxie's Camerupt won't use Earthquake if its ally also has Camerupt out. You can easily abuse that.
Blaziken (41lv): Fire Blast 1-2HKOs Maxie's Mightyena, 3HKOs Maxie's Camerupt (the other one is defeated in two hits) and 2HKOs Crobat. Maxie's Camerupt's Earthquake does major damage but fails to OHKO. Crobat 2HKOs with Wing Attack. Golbat 3HKOs with Wing Attack. Bulk Up and held Persim Berry help a lot in this battle (e.g. after two Bulk Ups, Maxie's Camerupt is within 2HKO range from Double Kick and Blaziken can safely tank Wing Attacks). Setting up is problematic against Mightyena since it loves RNG. Setting up against Camerupt is safer but very nonintuitive. Average/good performance. Everything depends on confuse rolls since you WILL get confused at least once in this battle. Being confused without Bulk Up's defense buff is not pleasant. All incoming attacks will wear Blaziken down and eat your healing items.

Gardevoir (41lv): Psychic 2HKOs Camerupts (possibly even OHKOing the weaker one) while OHKOing Crobat and Golbat. Thunderbolt 2HKOs Mightyenas. 2 Calm Minds let it OHKO everything. Maxie's Camerupt can 2HKO with Earthquake but everything else fails to even 3HKO Gardevoir (Wing Attack Crobat being the only other strong attack from what I have seen in my attempts). Very good performance.

Seviper (41lv):
At first, I thought it would be a dead weight but it isn't. The only thing that does major damage in this battle is Maxie's Camerupt's Earthquake (which can OHKO). Other attacks are unimpressive (Camerupt's Take Down 5HKOs, Crobat's Wing Attack 4HKOs). In return, Seviper's -1 Dig 3HKOs Maxie's Camerupt. -1 Sludge Bomb 3HKOs Maxie's Mightyena. These turn into 2HKOs if you use X Attack. Crunch 4HKOs Crobat. X Special is not recommended. Good performance. You can safely focus on defeating Maxie's team and you won't have to heal more than once.

Solrock (42lv): Another spammy battle for it. -1 Rock Slide 4-6HKOs Mightyenas and Camerupts while 2HKOing Golbat and Crobat. After Solrock gets hit by Swagger +1 Rock Slide 2-3HKOs everything so Persim Berry is helpful. Psychic 2HKOs flying bats and 3HKOs unboosted Camerupts. Defensively, you don't have to worry. Opponents do so little damage it's not worth listing (Golbat's Bite can't even reliably 4HKO Solrock). Good/very good performance.

This took too long so I will split lategame into two posts. My next one will be the final one.
 

Its_A_Random

A distant memory
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Did my run of Emerald.

Emerald Team Collage.png

Post-Brawly, Pre-Rival 2, Pre-Wattson, Pre-Maxie
Pre-Flannery, Pre-Norman, Pre-Rival 3, Pre-Winona
Pre-Maxie 2, Pre-Liza + Tate, Pre-Maxie + Tabitha, Pre-Archie
Pre-Juan, Pre-Wally, Pre-Sidney, Final

Final Time: 10:09 IGT

Swampert
Lax, 167 / 132 / 117 / 92 / 94 / 84, had 30 IV's in Attack, < 8 in Sp. Attack
-Secret Power
-Earthquake
-Mud Shot
-Surf

Gardevoir
Naughty, Trace, 157 / 105 / 94 / 157 / 119 / 112, had 29 IV's in HP, > 24 in Defence, > 21 in Sp. Attack, and decent Speed
-Shock Wave
-Thunderbolt
-Psychic
-Calm Mind

Wobbuffet
Mild, 220 / 48 / 52 / 51 / 60 / 42
-Mirror Coat
-Destiny Bond
-Encore
-Counter

Rayquaza
Hardy, 244 / 224 / 133 / 230 / 131 / 156
-Fly
-Rest
-Extreme Speed
-Outrage
Ralts Solo Collage.png

All major fights included except Brawly which I forgot, more or less the full game soloed by a Ralts
Wobbuffet Solo Collage.png

Rival 3, Liza + Tate, Archie, Juan, Glacia


To get Swampert and Rayquaza out of the way, Swampert was only used for field Pokémon and I did not really test it in major fights, and Rayquaza was an emergency button in case things went really badly in the league, which they did not.

I'll now go into each fight in detail for Gardevoir and Wobbuffet (Wynaut variant):
  • Roxanne: See a few posts above, Red Flag for speed
  • Brawly: See a few posts above, Okay fight
  • Rival 2: Kirlia begins here. Mudkip variant is the worst variant for Kirlia, need at least two X-Speeds to outspeed Grovyle and Grovyle two shots with Pursuit. Confusion four-shots Grovyle unboosted and I got a crit. Need to set up on Slugma. This fight is free at Lv21 since you get Calm Mind, but Ralts + Starter makes Lv21 unrealistic. Red Flag
  • Wattson: DT-less strategy relies on setting up an X-Speed, and maybe an X-Defend, you cannot one shot Magneton at +6 and everything hits hard and can troll. Probably the best fight for Double Team, but even then, it isn't required Really bad matchup, Red Flag
  • Maxie: DT-less solo requires setting up a Guard Spec. and praying for three consecutive Sand-Attacks (Bite in the first three turns is a loss). You can only get to +2 since +3 or higher encourages Roar on Mightyena. Normally Shock Wave does not two shot Mightyena at +2 but I rolled a -Sp. Def Mightyena on my successful attempt. Without Psychic, Confusion two shots at +3, had to also deal with confusion annoyance. But yeah Mightyena is the biggest issue for the solo and you are better off using it to take out Zubat or something. Red Flag
  • Flannery: You want +4 to get past Camerupt, +5 for Torkoal, but I went with +4 here. Used one Soda Pop and got a lucky Take Down miss when setting up on Numel. Barely lived the Overheat I had to take though. Okay Fight
  • Norman: Gardevoir begins here. Trace variants have an easy time on this fight since you trace Own Tempo and turn Spinda into setup bait. I went to +6 and used an X-Speed for safety to not have to deal with Slaking's crap. Okay Fight / Green Flag
  • Rival 3: Itemless with no Calm Minds, Grovyle lives a Psychic, but you does not take you out in return. Green Flag
  • Winona: Itemless with one Calm Mind on Swablu to take advantage of a potion use. Easy fight. Green Flag
  • Maxie 2: Swagger sucks and makes you use Lava Cookies, but this fight is easy. Got a lucky Scary Face miss, so Guard Spec. is a decent option for this fight. Two Calm Minds. Okay Fight / Green Flag
  • Liza + Tate: Tracing Levitate makes this an easy fight for Gardevoir since it can Calm Mind up to +3 at least and be an item bot when necessary. Wobbuffet helped out here so it more or less depends on your composition, but it's one of the better options for the fight. Just want something to deal with Claydol. Okay Fight / Green Flag
  • Maxie + Tabitha: One Hyper Potion (Take Down crit + Scary Face) and two Calm Minds, does well enough with Thunderbolt and Psychic, Metang is a good teammate. Green Flag
  • Archie: Guard Spec. stops the Scary Face, no Calm Minds required. Green Flag
  • Juan: Possible itemless, but I misclicked Shock Wave instead of Thunderbolt on Sealeo, so a Hyper used. Kingdra is a two-shot at +3 with Shock Wave, Merritt mentioned on Discord that X-Accuracy + Psychic is a good option for dealing with this fight. X-Speed is not required, but nice to have. Male Gardevoir means I had to go to +1 on Crawdaunt and +3 on Kingdra instead of setting up on the Luvdisc. Okay Fight for Speed / Green Flag
  • Wally: 1 Calm Mind is enough to two-shot Wally's party, only used one Awakening. Not much to say here. Green Flag
  • Sidney: Slow fight in general. DT-less opens with Guard Spec. on Mightyena (two Sand-Attacks opening), sets up to +2, and takes it out (+3 or higher brings out Roar). Shiftry comes second and you can mostly set up on it. You want +6 to one shot the Cacturne (it lives at +5 and you get Cotton Spore'd which does not mean much since Crawdaunt/Absol use Swords Dance). Had to use an X-Speed, Lava Cookie and Full Restore (Swagger and other shenanigans), and a Hyper. Bad fight, worst matchup of the league. Red Flag for speed / Okay Fight
  • Phoebe: Itemless, but not reliable. Want +4 to break through both Dusclops and Dusclops 1 prefers to use Protect / Confuse Ray. It can use Curse and you will want to prepare those permutations (ideally you want to be one turn from being KOed by Curse by the second Banette to draw out Thunderbolt instead of Shadow Ball), but no Curse is smooth sailing if you snap out before taking out Dusclops 1. Okay Fight / Green Flag
  • Glacia: Set up to +2, heal off Paralysis if Body Slam does that to you, sweep. Green Flag
  • Drake: Safest way to deal with this fight is to use Guard Spec. turn one, Calm Mind three times, use X-Speed, and one shot everything, which works since Shelgon only really uses Protect and Rock Tomb. You can omit the X-Speed, but run the risk of having to use Hypers if Salamence gets a Rock Slide flinch (especially if you get a Rock Tomb hit), and that's a three-shot. Flygon also outspeeds, but does nothing that is crazy lethal. Still a fairly quick fight. Okay Fight / Green Flag
  • Wallace: Wailord opening can be dangerous with Water Spout so opening with Shock Wave is a good idea since it deals half unboosted. X-Speed is desirable for Tentacruel / Ludicolo, X-Defend helps Gardevoir tank Double-Edges from Wailord. You want +4 to one shot Milotic as it survives at +3. I did use three Hypers on the setup. Okay Fight / Green Flag
  • Flannery: Lv18 is a little too low and in the most ideal circumstances, you can take out two things, and maybe D-Bond a third. Item help is great, watch out for the Sunny Day Overheats.
  • Norman: Spinda and Vigoroth can be taken out without healing, but Slaking hits way too hard. Linoone can also Belly Drum, which makes it D-Bond bait.
  • Rival 3: Can solo this fight with just one Hyper Potion. Slugma takes a few Mirror Coats/Counters, but Grovyle offs itself in a hit and Pelipper will take its sweet time before doing things with Wing Attack.
  • Winona: Doable with some potions. Swablu might not attack, but it offs itself with Perish Song thanks to Shadow Tag. Tropius Solarbeams you which is a one shot. Pelipper is an annoying roulette that can take its sweet time and has a Physical and Special Attack. Skarmory can use Metal Claw and Sand-Attack (Guard Spec. is not a bad idea here). Altaria loves to set up DD before KOing you, making it D-Bond bait.
  • Maxie 2: Doable with a couple of Potions. Mightyena only has Take Down, Crobat lives one Counter, which is good for using an X-Speed to outspeed his Camerupt so you can D-Bond it (since it hits really hard otherwise).
  • Liza + Tate: Offs Claydol in one turn, Encore has a great use in forcing Solrock to use Sunny Day (if used alongside Gardevoir), eventually the Calm Mind using Xatu will try to take you out, but enough HP to live a hit means you can Mirror Coat it into the distance. Really good option here.
  • Maxie + Tabitha: Not something you want to try. On paper, there are a lot of Physical Attacks around. In practice, they end up spamming things like Swagger and Scary Face, making Wobbuffet not do much until they double team you.
  • Archie: Soloed with a Hyper or two. Archie's whole party is Physically-based so Counter works wonders here. You also live two hits from anything at the level I was, so there's that. Good fight.
  • Juan: Technically the solo is impossible since your only option for Crawdaunt is to D-Bond it, but the other four can be handled. Encoring Kingdra into Ice Beam is nice (only did 1 DT in my run), and the other's aren't too bad.
  • Wally: Possible. Altaria sets up DD a few times... to not KO with Aerial Ace and gets one shot in return. Delcatty does weird things, the other three are okay to deal with, but my one on this take ended with a Thunderbolt crit and I decided to move on; Assist luck is a thing.
  • Sidney: You could Counter the Absol, but other than that, you can only D-Bond things.
  • Phoebe: lol
  • Glacia: I had to RC to Lv41 to get the "solo" here to turn the Glalie two-shots into three-shots. But yeah this is reasonable enough to solo since everything takes a bunch from Mirror Coat or Counter (only Sealeo one does not get one shot). I still had to use a couple of death fodder just to guarantee it, suggesting that a higher level is more desirable.
  • Drake: Lv41 is a little too low here. I mean, you can do the solo here at Lv41, but it's a case of a KO > Death Fodder Heal > KO loop and on top of that, you have to guess right. Want a higher level here.
  • Wallace: See Drake, except it's worse since Wailord hits really hard, Ludicolo can Double Team, and Gyarados can DD (good for D-Bond bait though).


General Thoughts

Ralts

Definitely A-Rank minimum, but I am not sold on S-Rank. Yes you can look through my analysis and see all the green flags once Gardevoir happens, but there's still plenty of Red Flags in the early game, whether it be for support or speed. And even with Gardevoir, there's the odd fight where a bunch of support or setup time is necessary to do the thing. The big issue here is that while the second half of the game is on par with things like Alakazam and Swampert (maybe better than Swampert), it needs so much coddling to get there in the first place. That's not really indicative of S-Rank when it deals with the first half of the game much slower than its contemporaries. It's not that it can solo every fight (I'm pretty sure Alakazam [well, maybe not Roxanne] and Mudkip can do the same thing), it's how fast it can do it as to why its placing has been contested for so long, and I am not convinced that the speed of which it can do things is S-Rank worthy. Maybe it's that I have a high standard or that I'm used to games like B2W2 where the S-Rankers of that game need very little coddling and can just nuke things off the face of the earth with not much help, but when I look at Mudkip / Alakazam and I look at Ralts, the latter feels like the odd one out, and with good reason.

Gun to my head? I think it's an A-Rank from an efficiency perspective. The amount of investment you have to put into it for it to even start becoming good enough to hold its own without significant external help, especially early on, is too much.

Wynaut
There's probably a case that can be made for E-Rank because it can be really good in most major fights and not need that many levels, but it relies on a lot of healing items to do its solos, and it's not really good for field trainers (to the point where it's better to slap an Exp. Share on it). There's also the investment at the beginning, where it takes about 8-10 minutes on the Mach Bike to hatch, another 10-20 to get Wobbuffet, and the payoff is okay, but it isn't amazing. I think E-Rank is worth a look at since it's not that jokey awful thing you'd expect out of F-Rank and has real, legitimate uses, but that depends on Merritt and others think, really. It was certainly fun to use and it can efficiently take things out, though.

But yeah, this was a fun exercise, thanks for reading.
 
I have been using Mudkip, Tentacool, Chinchou and Gorebyss in the last couple of days. Here are my logs until the last badge.

Mudkip Lv8: Geodude 2HKOs with Rock Tomb. Mud-Slap does insufficient damage.

Mudkip Lv12: Water Gun OHKOs Geodude and 2HKOs Nosepass. Rock Tomb 3HKOs Mudkip - however, Growl diminishes its impact and allows Mudkip to defeat Nosepass by itself.


Mudkip Lv15: With the Rock Tomb TM, Mudkip can OHKO Wingull and 3HKO Treecko. Surprisingly positive match-up.


Marshtomp Lv16: With Mud Shot, Marshtomp 2HKOs Machop (it's a range, guaranteed with Soft Sand) and Meditite, and 3HKOs Makuhita. However, Makuhita's Bulk Up and Sitrus Berry complicate the match-up. Water Gun 4HKOs Machop and Makuhita.

Marshtomp Lv19: With Mud Shot, Marshtomp 2HKOs Machop, Meditite and Makuhita. Even with the pressure from Makuhita's Sitrus Berry, Marshtomp still sweeps reliably.


Marshtomp Lv21: With the Rock Tomb TM, Marshtomp OHKOs Wingull and 3HKOs Grovyle, but Grovyle outspeeds and 2HKOs with Absorb. Mud Shot OHKOs Slugma. Marshtomp is hopeless without TMs.


Marshtomp Lv25: Mud Shot OHKOs Voltorb, Electrike, Magneton, and 2HKOs Manectric.


Marshtomp Lv28: Water Gun 4HKOs Mightyena, 2HKOs Zubat and OHKOs Camerupt.


Marshtomp Lv31: Water Gun OHKOs Numel, but misses the OHKO against Camerupt, and 3HKOs Torkoal. Mud Shot OHKOs Slugma and 3HKOs Torkoal.


Marshtomp Lv33: Mud Shot 2HKOs Spinda, 3HKOs Vigoroth, 2HKOs Linoone (it's a range) and 11HKOs Slaking. Vigoroth, Linoone and Slaking outspeed Marshtomp, and Slaking 2HKOs.

At this point I went for Tentacruel. I caught a Lv35 one in the Abandoned Ship (also went for Ice Beam) while my Marshtomp was almost Lv35. Unfortunately I didn't take a screenshot but the experience gap between both was 17304 exp in Tentacruel's favor.

Marhstomp Lv35: Surf OHKOs Slugma. Strength 2HKOs Lombre. Grovyle outspeeds Marshtomp and OHKOs with Leaf Blade.

Tentacruel Lv35: Surf OHKOs Slugma. Acid 2HKOs Grovyle and Lombre. With the Sludge Bomb TM, Tentacruel OHKOs both. With the Ice Beam TM, Tentacruel OHKOs Grovyle and 2HKOs Lombre.


Swampert Lv36: Surf 2HKOs Swablu and Skarmory. Take Down 3HKOs Tropius, Altaria and Pelipper. With the Ice Beam TM, Swampert OHKOs Swablu, Tropius and Altaria. Needs an Ice-type TM to sweep consistently.

Tentacruel Lv36: Surf 2HKOs Swablu and Skarmory. Secret Power 5HKOs Altaria and 4HKOs Pelipper. Acid 3HKOs Tropius. With the Sludge Bomb TM, Tentacruel OHKOs Swablu, 3HKOs Altaria and 2HKOs Tropius and Pelipper. With the Ice Beam TM, Tentacruel OHKOs Swablu, OHKOs Altaria (it's a range) and Tropius, and misses out for very little to 2HKO Pelipper.


Swampert Lv36: Take Down 3HKOs Tropius while it 2HKOs back with Magical Leaf. Take Down 2HKOs Grovyle while it 2HKOs back and outspeeds, although Swampert can defeat Grovyle after one speed debuff from Mud Shot. Take Down 3HKOs Pelipper. With the Ice Beam TM, Swampert can OHKO Tropius, 2HKO Grovyle and 3HKO Pelipper. Needs the Ice Beam TM to win.

Tentacruel Lv36: Acid 3HKOs Tropius and 2HKOs Grovyle. Surf OHKOs Slugma. Secret Power 5HKOs Pelipper. With the Ice Beam TM, Tentacruel OHKOs Tropius, 2HKOs Grovyle and 3HKOs Pelipper. With the Sludge Bomb TM, Tentacruel OHKOs Grovyle, 3HKOs Pelipper and 2HKOs Tropius.


Pokemon - Emerald Version (USA, Europe)_076.png
Pokemon - Emerald Version (USA, Europe)_077.png

Swampert Lv40: Surf OHKOs Camerupt (even after Amnesia) and 2HKOs Mightyena and Crobat. Blizzard 2HKOs Crobat.

Tentacruel Lv39: Surf OHKOs Camerupt (even after Amnesia) and 2HKOs Mightyena and Crobat. Blizzard 2HKOs Crobat.


Pokemon - Emerald Version (USA, Europe)_079.png
Pokemon - Emerald Version (USA, Europe)_078.png

Swampert Lv44 (w/ Silk Scarf): Take Down 2HKOs Xatu. Blizzard 3HKOs Claydol and Xatu. Surf 2HKOs Solrock and Lunatone. However, Xatu outspeeds Swampert.

Tentacruel Lv42 (w/ Nevermeltice): Blizzard 3HKOs Claydol and Xatu. Surf 3HKOs Solrock and Lunatone. Both Xatu and Claydol 2HKO with Psychic and Earthquake respectively but Tentacruel has surprisingly been able to win this match.


Swampert Lv46: Surf OHKOs Camerupt, 3HKOs Mightyena and 3HKOs Crobat. Blizzard 3HKOs Crobat.

Tentacruel Lv44: Surf OHKOs Camerupt, 3HKOs Mightyena and 4HKOs Crobat. Blizzard 3HKOs Crobat.


At this point I decided to catch Clamperl and Chinchou. I got a Lv30 Chinchou and Lv35 Clamperl, the highest possible levels.
Pokemon - Emerald Version (USA, Europe)_082.png
Pokemon - Emerald Version (USA, Europe)_083.png
Pokemon - Emerald Version (USA, Europe)_084.png
Pokemon - Emerald Version (USA, Europe)_085.png


Swampert Lv46: Surf misses out for very little on the OHKO against Mightyena, and 2HKOs Crobat. Crobat outspeeds Swampert. Blizzard OHKOs Crobat. Mud Shot 2HKOs Sharpedo even after Intimidate.

Tentacruel Lv44: Surf 2HKOs Mightyena and Crobat. Blizzard 2HKOs Crobat. Secret Power 2HKOs Sharpedo. Sludge Bomb OHKOs Sharpedo.

Lanturn Lv31: Surf 3HKOs Mightyena (2HKOs in Rain), HKOs Crobat. Thunder OHKOs Sharpedo, and 2HKOs Mightyena and Crobat. However, even Mightyena outspeeds and 3HKOs with Take Down, and Sharpedo 2HKOs with Slash.-

Gorebyss Lv35: Surf 2HKOs Mightyena (misses out by very little the OHKO on rain), HKOs Crobat (2HKOs on rain) and 3HKOs Sharpedo (2HKOs on rain). Blizzard 2HKOs Crobat. It can set up Iron Defenses to withstand enemy hits to allow a sweep.



Pokemon - Emerald Version (USA, Europe)_091.png
Pokemon - Emerald Version (USA, Europe)_090.png
Pokemon - Emerald Version (USA, Europe)_092.png
Pokemon - Emerald Version (USA, Europe)_093.png

Swampert Lv48 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Mud Shot 2HKOs Luvdisc, 3HKOs Sealeo, Whiscash and Crawdaunt, and misses out the 3HKO very shortly against Kingdra. Surf 2HKOs Whiscash. Blizzard 3HKOs Kingdra. With the Earthquake TM, Swampert OHKOs Luvdisc, and 2HKOs everyone else.

Tentacruel Lv46 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Secret Power 5HKOs Crawdaunt and Kingdra, 4HKOs Sealeo and 3HKOs Luvdisc. Surf 3HKOs Luvdisc, Crawdaunt and Whiscash, and 4HKOs Sealeo. Blizzard 3HKOs Kingdra, although Double Team will disrupt it. With the Sludge Bomb TM, Tentacruel 2HKOs Luvdisc, Crawdaunt and Sealeo and 4HKOs Kingdra. With the Giga Drain TM, Tentacruel 2HKOs Whiscash.

Lanturn Lv32 (w/ Magnet): Thunder OHKOs Luvdisc and Crawdaunt, 2HKOs Sealeo and 4HKOs Kingdra. Whiscash outspeeds and OHKOs with Earthquake.

Gorebyss Lv37 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Psychic 3HKOs Luvdisc, 4HKOs Whiscash and Sealeo. Blizzard 3HKOs Kingdra. With the Rain Dance TM, Gorebyss 2HKOs Luvdisc and Whiscash, 3HKOs Sealeo and Crawdaunt.

I'll reserve my overall judgment about Mudkip, but so far, its lackluster starting stats have been carried by its typing, which allow it to dominate important battles since very early (except against the Rival, which is a bad match-up in general because of the Treecko line). It has been excellent in my opinion, similarly to Abra.

Tentacruel has been pretty cool, too. It works very similarly to Swampert, and it's better at certain things thanks to its speed and the lack of a Grass-type weakness. I haven't had major complaints with it other than probably the leveling rate. I imagine though that training an early Tentacool must be a really bad idea though

Can I ask why Chinchou is supposed to be B? This is a late-joining Pokémon that arrives fifteen levels behind our party with a Slow leveling rate. How is this supposed to keep up with the rest without extensive grinding? I'm not convinced this should be as high as it is. So far, even Gorebyss is seeming like a more appealing option with a better leveling rate, better join level and higher Special attack.
 

Merritt

literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
is a Tournament Directoris a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
The decision to go into Juan with a level 32 Lanturn and then dumping on its performance is perhaps the best illustration of why leveling pokemon by an even experience distribution is unnatural.

Choosing to not feed the Pokemon that's come late and somewhat underleveled the incredibly free KOs lurking pretty much everywhere is pretty baffling.

For Gorebyss, remember that it starts with a steep cost of having to go well off the beaten path and do the scanner sidequest, something that definitely takes longer than feeding a Chinchou some water types.
 
I have been using Mudkip, Tentacool, Chinchou and Gorebyss in the last couple of days. Here are my logs until the last badge.

Mudkip Lv8: Geodude 2HKOs with Rock Tomb. Mud-Slap does insufficient damage.

Mudkip Lv12: Water Gun OHKOs Geodude and 2HKOs Nosepass. Rock Tomb 3HKOs Mudkip - however, Growl diminishes its impact and allows Mudkip to defeat Nosepass by itself.


Mudkip Lv15: With the Rock Tomb TM, Mudkip can OHKO Wingull and 3HKO Treecko. Surprisingly positive match-up.


Marshtomp Lv16: With Mud Shot, Marshtomp 2HKOs Machop (it's a range, guaranteed with Soft Sand) and Meditite, and 3HKOs Makuhita. However, Makuhita's Bulk Up and Sitrus Berry complicate the match-up. Water Gun 4HKOs Machop and Makuhita.

Marshtomp Lv19: With Mud Shot, Marshtomp 2HKOs Machop, Meditite and Makuhita. Even with the pressure from Makuhita's Sitrus Berry, Marshtomp still sweeps reliably.


Marshtomp Lv21: With the Rock Tomb TM, Marshtomp OHKOs Wingull and 3HKOs Grovyle, but Grovyle outspeeds and 2HKOs with Absorb. Mud Shot OHKOs Slugma. Marshtomp is hopeless without TMs.


Marshtomp Lv25: Mud Shot OHKOs Voltorb, Electrike, Magneton, and 2HKOs Manectric.


Marshtomp Lv28: Water Gun 4HKOs Mightyena, 2HKOs Zubat and OHKOs Camerupt.


Marshtomp Lv31: Water Gun OHKOs Numel, but misses the OHKO against Camerupt, and 3HKOs Torkoal. Mud Shot OHKOs Slugma and 3HKOs Torkoal.


Marshtomp Lv33: Mud Shot 2HKOs Spinda, 3HKOs Vigoroth, 2HKOs Linoone (it's a range) and 11HKOs Slaking. Vigoroth, Linoone and Slaking outspeed Marshtomp, and Slaking 2HKOs.

At this point I went for Tentacruel. I caught a Lv35 one in the Abandoned Ship (also went for Ice Beam) while my Marshtomp was almost Lv35. Unfortunately I didn't take a screenshot but the experience gap between both was 17304 exp in Tentacruel's favor.

Marhstomp Lv35: Surf OHKOs Slugma. Strength 2HKOs Lombre. Grovyle outspeeds Marshtomp and OHKOs with Leaf Blade.

Tentacruel Lv35: Surf OHKOs Slugma. Acid 2HKOs Grovyle and Lombre. With the Sludge Bomb TM, Tentacruel OHKOs both. With the Ice Beam TM, Tentacruel OHKOs Grovyle and 2HKOs Lombre.


Swampert Lv36: Surf 2HKOs Swablu and Skarmory. Take Down 3HKOs Tropius, Altaria and Pelipper. With the Ice Beam TM, Swampert OHKOs Swablu, Tropius and Altaria. Needs an Ice-type TM to sweep consistently.

Tentacruel Lv36: Surf 2HKOs Swablu and Skarmory. Secret Power 5HKOs Altaria and 4HKOs Pelipper. Acid 3HKOs Tropius. With the Sludge Bomb TM, Tentacruel OHKOs Swablu, 3HKOs Altaria and 2HKOs Tropius and Pelipper. With the Ice Beam TM, Tentacruel OHKOs Swablu, OHKOs Altaria (it's a range) and Tropius, and misses out for very little to 2HKO Pelipper.


Swampert Lv36: Take Down 3HKOs Tropius while it 2HKOs back with Magical Leaf. Take Down 2HKOs Grovyle while it 2HKOs back and outspeeds, although Swampert can defeat Grovyle after one speed debuff from Mud Shot. Take Down 3HKOs Pelipper. With the Ice Beam TM, Swampert can OHKO Tropius, 2HKO Grovyle and 3HKO Pelipper. Needs the Ice Beam TM to win.

Tentacruel Lv36: Acid 3HKOs Tropius and 2HKOs Grovyle. Surf OHKOs Slugma. Secret Power 5HKOs Pelipper. With the Ice Beam TM, Tentacruel OHKOs Tropius, 2HKOs Grovyle and 3HKOs Pelipper. With the Sludge Bomb TM, Tentacruel OHKOs Grovyle, 3HKOs Pelipper and 2HKOs Tropius.


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Swampert Lv40: Surf OHKOs Camerupt (even after Amnesia) and 2HKOs Mightyena and Crobat. Blizzard 2HKOs Crobat.

Tentacruel Lv39: Surf OHKOs Camerupt (even after Amnesia) and 2HKOs Mightyena and Crobat. Blizzard 2HKOs Crobat.


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Swampert Lv44 (w/ Silk Scarf): Take Down 2HKOs Xatu. Blizzard 3HKOs Claydol and Xatu. Surf 2HKOs Solrock and Lunatone. However, Xatu outspeeds Swampert.

Tentacruel Lv42 (w/ Nevermeltice): Blizzard 3HKOs Claydol and Xatu. Surf 3HKOs Solrock and Lunatone. Both Xatu and Claydol 2HKO with Psychic and Earthquake respectively but Tentacruel has surprisingly been able to win this match.


Swampert Lv46: Surf OHKOs Camerupt, 3HKOs Mightyena and 3HKOs Crobat. Blizzard 3HKOs Crobat.

Tentacruel Lv44: Surf OHKOs Camerupt, 3HKOs Mightyena and 4HKOs Crobat. Blizzard 3HKOs Crobat.


At this point I decided to catch Clamperl and Chinchou. I got a Lv30 Chinchou and Lv35 Clamperl, the highest possible levels.
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Swampert Lv46: Surf misses out for very little on the OHKO against Mightyena, and 2HKOs Crobat. Crobat outspeeds Swampert. Blizzard OHKOs Crobat. Mud Shot 2HKOs Sharpedo even after Intimidate.

Tentacruel Lv44: Surf 2HKOs Mightyena and Crobat. Blizzard 2HKOs Crobat. Secret Power 2HKOs Sharpedo. Sludge Bomb OHKOs Sharpedo.

Lanturn Lv31: Surf 3HKOs Mightyena (2HKOs in Rain), HKOs Crobat. Thunder OHKOs Sharpedo, and 2HKOs Mightyena and Crobat. However, even Mightyena outspeeds and 3HKOs with Take Down, and Sharpedo 2HKOs with Slash.-

Gorebyss Lv35: Surf 2HKOs Mightyena (misses out by very little the OHKO on rain), HKOs Crobat (2HKOs on rain) and 3HKOs Sharpedo (2HKOs on rain). Blizzard 2HKOs Crobat. It can set up Iron Defenses to withstand enemy hits to allow a sweep.



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Swampert Lv48 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Mud Shot 2HKOs Luvdisc, 3HKOs Sealeo, Whiscash and Crawdaunt, and misses out the 3HKO very shortly against Kingdra. Surf 2HKOs Whiscash. Blizzard 3HKOs Kingdra. With the Earthquake TM, Swampert OHKOs Luvdisc, and 2HKOs everyone else.

Tentacruel Lv46 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Secret Power 5HKOs Crawdaunt and Kingdra, 4HKOs Sealeo and 3HKOs Luvdisc. Surf 3HKOs Luvdisc, Crawdaunt and Whiscash, and 4HKOs Sealeo. Blizzard 3HKOs Kingdra, although Double Team will disrupt it. With the Sludge Bomb TM, Tentacruel 2HKOs Luvdisc, Crawdaunt and Sealeo and 4HKOs Kingdra. With the Giga Drain TM, Tentacruel 2HKOs Whiscash.

Lanturn Lv32 (w/ Magnet): Thunder OHKOs Luvdisc and Crawdaunt, 2HKOs Sealeo and 4HKOs Kingdra. Whiscash outspeeds and OHKOs with Earthquake.

Gorebyss Lv37 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Psychic 3HKOs Luvdisc, 4HKOs Whiscash and Sealeo. Blizzard 3HKOs Kingdra. With the Rain Dance TM, Gorebyss 2HKOs Luvdisc and Whiscash, 3HKOs Sealeo and Crawdaunt.

I'll reserve my overall judgment about Mudkip, but so far, its lackluster starting stats have been carried by its typing, which allow it to dominate important battles since very early (except against the Rival, which is a bad match-up in general because of the Treecko line). It has been excellent in my opinion, similarly to Abra.

Tentacruel has been pretty cool, too. It works very similarly to Swampert, and it's better at certain things thanks to its speed and the lack of a Grass-type weakness. I haven't had major complaints with it other than probably the leveling rate. I imagine though that training an early Tentacool must be a really bad idea though

Can I ask why Chinchou is supposed to be B? This is a late-joining Pokémon that arrives fifteen levels behind our party with a Slow leveling rate. How is this supposed to keep up with the rest without extensive grinding? I'm not convinced this should be as high as it is. So far, even Gorebyss is seeming like a more appealing option with a better leveling rate, better join level and higher Special attack.
Greil Mercenaries in the house!

Can't help but notice the monotype team and more importantly, the one mon show until post-Norman.

Pardon the bluntness, but are you sure you're actually running a sensible test and not doing just a fun run?
 
The decision to go into Juan with a level 32 Lanturn and then dumping on its performance is perhaps the best illustration of why leveling pokemon by an even experience distribution is unnatural.

Choosing to not feed the Pokemon that's come late and somewhat underleveled the incredibly free KOs lurking pretty much everywhere is pretty baffling.

For Gorebyss, remember that it starts with a steep cost of having to go well off the beaten path and do the scanner sidequest, something that definitely takes longer than feeding a Chinchou some water types.
ooooooooooooooooookay

so, I retried after having battled every trainer in hoenn before juan, including those I deliberately avoided battling with mudkip and tentacruel through the whole game to avoid overleveling (which is very generous, a normal team wouldn't be able to invest on lanturn like this), except for the people in meteor falls and the victory road for obvious reasons, because clearly it's unfair to judge a late-joining pokémon with a slow leveling rate without having grinded it for 10 levels. I was going to do a huge grind with the remaining trainers anyways for the elite four, but apparently lanturn's logs in particular have disturbed some people and want a "fairer" take on the bioluminescent fish.

the results are following:

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I think you're underestimating the absurd amount of experience (and time, honestly) that goes into leveling up, unless you're pretending that training up a pokémon fifteen levels underneath our party that grows slowly is as efficient as using what we already have, or makes up for the lost time, or that it is reasonable to think that you can compare a Pokémon you have dedicated a lot of time to it exclusively to make up for its inconvenient joining time with other Pokémon that haven't needed that

The sad thing is that even with all of that, the results aren't really that good:

Juan (post-grind)

Swampert Lv54: Earthquake OHKOs everyone except for Kingdra, who faints against a combination of Mud Shot and Earthquake.

Tentacruel Lv51: Secret Power 2HKOs Luvdisc, 4HKOs Sealeo and Crawdaunt and 5HKOs Kingdra. Blizzard 3HKOs Kingdra. With the Sludge Bomb TM, Tentacruel OHKOs Luvdisc, 2HKO Sealeo and Crawdaunt, and misses the 2HKO against Kingdra by very little. With the Giga Drain TM, Tentacruel OHKOs Whiscash.

Lanturn Lv42 (w/ Magnet): Thunder OHKOs Luvdisc, Sealeo and Crawdaunt, but misses out on the 2HKO against Kingdra. Surf 3HKOs Whiscash (2HKOs in Rain), which 2HKOs with Earthquake and can complicate the match-up with Amnesia.

Gorebyss Lv48 (w/ Sitrus Berry): Psychic 2HKOs Luvdisc, Whiscash and Sealeo. Surf 2HKOs Luvdisc and Crawdaunt. Blizzard 2HKOs Kingdra, although Double Team can disrupt the match-up.


......
Now, you may argue that, in fact, it's unreasonable to expect to use a Lv54 Swampert against Juan, but do you see where I'm going with this? The amount of time/investment/effort that I needed to get Lanturn to a reasonable combat level has been the same as getting Swampert or Tentacruel to ridiculous levels that at that point you are dealing with the rest of the challenges effortlessly (presumably), and the match-ups for Swampert/Tentacruel aren't conditioned to whatever Lanturn has effectiveness to. The issue, right now, is not necessarily that Lanturn doesn't match Swampert (that's a huge bar), or Tentacruel (that's a red flag because they share tiers, but it's not a deal breaker), but rather that Gorebyss, a Pokémon that is ranked as F, is right now more appealing to use than Lanturn, a Pokémon that is ranked as B.

The fact is that Chinchou, under the experiences of this playthrough, doesn't match the description of a B Tier you have there because of the aforementioned paragraph, because Chinchou's low level, low offensive stats and slow leveling rate holds it back enough that you need to have advantage against your opponents since otherwise you won't be able to OHKO or 2HKO (see Kingdra), and the result is that it doesn't make up for its late arrival. That's why I'm asking why Chinchou is B to begin with, which you haven't responded to, btw.

Greil Mercenaries in the house!

Can't help but notice the monotype team and more importantly, the one mon show until post-Norman.

Pardon the bluntness, but are you sure you're actually running a sensible test and not doing just a fun run?
what do you understand under "a sensible test"?
 
I think it's fair although tedious to test Pokemon by giving them all the same amount of exp. Early Pokemon get the benefit of contributing to early fights while later Pokemon come at higher levels and have higher BST. What's happened here is that Swampert 100k exp, Chinchou has gotten 0 and then their exp gets split from here so Swampert will always have 100k more exp.

The idea is that the old Pokemon have so much exp because they weren't sharing it with the new Pokemon so it deserves all the exp for a while to catch up.
 
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