I don’t mind testing for RSE as well if there are some Pokémon that are disputed in terms of rankings.
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Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion
- Thread starter Merritt
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For the most part I think things had been left off pretty close to settled, certainly the S and A tiers were set and I'd tested all of B and C by that point
Some things that jump out to me as benefitting from additional experience:
Abra (No trade) - I detailed my experience with it and I'm curious how others would find its performance
Zangoose - Too few Ruby players, needs more input
Chinchou - B tier or better?
Carvanha - No recent tests
Wingull - Can it justify B?
Mahop (No trade) - Limited tests
Geodude (Trade) - Limited tests
Psyduck - Validate C
Voltorb - Test for C vs D
Corphish - Limited tests
Kecleon - Limited tests
Natu - Test for E vs D
Nosepass - test for F vs E; I had started a run with Rock Slide / Toxic / Return / Rest that I thought had potential to make E
Outside of those most things are pretty well spoken for
Some things that jump out to me as benefitting from additional experience:
Abra (No trade) - I detailed my experience with it and I'm curious how others would find its performance
Zangoose - Too few Ruby players, needs more input
Chinchou - B tier or better?
Carvanha - No recent tests
Wingull - Can it justify B?
Mahop (No trade) - Limited tests
Geodude (Trade) - Limited tests
Psyduck - Validate C
Voltorb - Test for C vs D
Corphish - Limited tests
Kecleon - Limited tests
Natu - Test for E vs D
Nosepass - test for F vs E; I had started a run with Rock Slide / Toxic / Return / Rest that I thought had potential to make E
Outside of those most things are pretty well spoken for
I think I'll definitely go for Torchic, Ralts, Geodude and Carvanha. I'm able to trade easily enough.
I kinda expect it'll be similar to how it went in my testing for Golem in Omega Ruby though -- solid at worst throughout most of the game, but sinks like a brick the moment you leave Lilycove Port and it's very limited in Elite 4 usefulness.
I kinda expect it'll be similar to how it went in my testing for Golem in Omega Ruby though -- solid at worst throughout most of the game, but sinks like a brick the moment you leave Lilycove Port and it's very limited in Elite 4 usefulness.
If you can I'd suggest testing 5 or 6, the extra levels accrued on a 4 man party can really distort the perception of a mons experience
For Zangoose. A is a good fit. S is too much.
Reasoning: It is obtained at the highest level of 17. Around that level you have SD and after a use of it, you can OHKO pretty much everything. Most fights are a clean sweep for it after one use. However, it will be behind the rest of the team in levels and will require you to grind on the wilds in that area as the trainers there will barely get it over 19. Return is post Maxie which is a major fight. Due to Intimidate it actually struggles in that fight. Basically, A is due to availability and the lack of immediate Return. I have logs I can provide if you wish to have them for reference.
Now the big one. Treecko does not belong in B. It's a C mon imo. Holy moly. I ran tests repeatedly and even did rough match calcs on various fights. This mon has nothing Special based over 50 until Leaf Blade, unless I missed somthing which I am fairly sure I did not. Do NOT use Dig or Strength. Trying to use Dig on Slaking (from a post way back when) is a terrible idea. On Slaking 1 (Level 28 one), its around a 9HKO - 10HKO. And the fact that Norman can just heal that away. Yeah no. Also, you die in two hits anyway. SO you just prolong your death. As for Strength, bout the same result. Just don't. Bullet Seed is also RNG dependent. When your own Grass Starter struggles to beat Roxanne, you are honestly not a B mon imo. Sure, it's obtained as a Starter. But you've also got Shroomish quite early in anyway so I feel the availability argument is a moot point. I know the selling point of Treecko is it's speed, but honestly what good is it doing you when you can't reliably kill things. It took care of mooks and most of the gym leaders mons, but is stopped flat by their aces barring Tate&Liza and Wallace.
Please note that Treecko run was based in Ruby. I have no idea if it is better in Emerald but I highly doubt it. Once again, I can provide logs on it and the math calcs that I did.
Chinchou in no way should be B. It's near Sootopolis for goodness sake. Unless it can just straight up destroy everything at that point, I see little reason for a B nom.
Pelipper: B is a great fit. My run with it was great. It did better than Treecko and Spoink. It and Zangoose were very good. The age it gets by using Water Gun really holds it back and Wing Attack is strictly reserved for Grass, Fighting, and Water types. (Yes, Shock Wave exists but I had a brainfart and gave it to Grumpig). Once you get Surf, you also go and get Ice Beam and then you are set for pretty much the rest of the game. A is too much. It lacks speed, lacks a bit of killing power around Wattson as its age is showing, and overall it has some fights it straight up cannot win. Please note that Flannery differs in Emerald as she has Sunny Day and not Reflect, so Pelipper actually struggle there.
Reasoning: It is obtained at the highest level of 17. Around that level you have SD and after a use of it, you can OHKO pretty much everything. Most fights are a clean sweep for it after one use. However, it will be behind the rest of the team in levels and will require you to grind on the wilds in that area as the trainers there will barely get it over 19. Return is post Maxie which is a major fight. Due to Intimidate it actually struggles in that fight. Basically, A is due to availability and the lack of immediate Return. I have logs I can provide if you wish to have them for reference.
Now the big one. Treecko does not belong in B. It's a C mon imo. Holy moly. I ran tests repeatedly and even did rough match calcs on various fights. This mon has nothing Special based over 50 until Leaf Blade, unless I missed somthing which I am fairly sure I did not. Do NOT use Dig or Strength. Trying to use Dig on Slaking (from a post way back when) is a terrible idea. On Slaking 1 (Level 28 one), its around a 9HKO - 10HKO. And the fact that Norman can just heal that away. Yeah no. Also, you die in two hits anyway. SO you just prolong your death. As for Strength, bout the same result. Just don't. Bullet Seed is also RNG dependent. When your own Grass Starter struggles to beat Roxanne, you are honestly not a B mon imo. Sure, it's obtained as a Starter. But you've also got Shroomish quite early in anyway so I feel the availability argument is a moot point. I know the selling point of Treecko is it's speed, but honestly what good is it doing you when you can't reliably kill things. It took care of mooks and most of the gym leaders mons, but is stopped flat by their aces barring Tate&Liza and Wallace.
Please note that Treecko run was based in Ruby. I have no idea if it is better in Emerald but I highly doubt it. Once again, I can provide logs on it and the math calcs that I did.
Chinchou in no way should be B. It's near Sootopolis for goodness sake. Unless it can just straight up destroy everything at that point, I see little reason for a B nom.
Pelipper: B is a great fit. My run with it was great. It did better than Treecko and Spoink. It and Zangoose were very good. The age it gets by using Water Gun really holds it back and Wing Attack is strictly reserved for Grass, Fighting, and Water types. (Yes, Shock Wave exists but I had a brainfart and gave it to Grumpig). Once you get Surf, you also go and get Ice Beam and then you are set for pretty much the rest of the game. A is too much. It lacks speed, lacks a bit of killing power around Wattson as its age is showing, and overall it has some fights it straight up cannot win. Please note that Flannery differs in Emerald as she has Sunny Day and not Reflect, so Pelipper actually struggle there.
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This is where you're supposed to run the game with a mon before commenting on it. If you'd read the thread previously you'd have seen that Chinchou does in fact beast the end game.
iirc these lists tend to go off of 4-5. Might go for 5 though
Seeing as I ran with a majority of these, with the exception of Chinchou which comes in below level 40 requiring levels, is a TM Dumpster to even dent most of it, I fail to see it in B. Sorry if my opinion differs vastly from yours. I suppose I can test Chou to ensure accuracy
This particular list has been run predominantly with 5 or 6, only a handful of testers go with four
Chinchou is accessible as soon as you reach Mossdeep and it has literally an entire ocean of free training due to Spark/Thunderbolt and a water typing - additionally it evolves in Lanturn within a handful of levels. Surf/Thunderbolt is excellent STAB coverage and is easily supplemented with Ice Beam, also handling an HM usage with Dive. It is arguably the best end-game participant with how it handles Juan, Sidney, Glacia, Drake, and Wallace, also contributing to T+L (avoiding Claydol) and Phoebe.
It's not a matter of your opinion differing from mine, it's a matter of running the game with the mon, something you yourself implied that you hadn't done with Chinchou.
If you're going to test Zangoose for the love of god grab early Strength. Return being post-Maxie isn't a big factor considering that it's not going to be outdamaging Strength until probably after Winona. Slash is fine and all but it's not immediate like Strength is, and even then the extra power means the difference between OHKOs and not.
Assume I had that, because I did. Like I said, logs are available at anytime if you need them. Yes, I gave it Strength as soon as I got it. Why would I not? I have already agreed it's A, so no idea why you are making a point this up?
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I used Wingull in my (Emerald) run and I think B is perfect for it. Wingull did very well in some matchups, Juan including (Surf 3HKOs pmuch everything bar Kingdra), although it does reach the short end of the stick in many fights. Here are some logs (I put everything against everything so I essentially tested):
so I get it that you don't want a Ralts testing? If yes, I can test Chinchou / Carvanha / Voltorb / Kadabra / Golem, if no, I can test Ralts instead of Kadabra.
Roxanne: beats Geodudes, loses to Nosepass
Brawly: beats Meditite and Machop, loses to Makuhita
Wattson: bad (loses even to Voltorb)
Flannery: beats everything but Torkoal (screw Attract + Sunny Day)
Norman: Protect allows you to screw with Slaking. Ice Beam 2HKOs Spinda and Vigoroth, if I remember correctly. This matchup I'd call good if you buy the Ice Beam TM from Game Corner (I had enough money to do so before Norman)
Winona: sweeps. Ice Beam takes care of pretty much everything and Surf takes care of Skarmory.
Tate and Liza: Surf 3HKOed all the Water-weak Pokemon
Juan: surprisingly well, Surf 3HKOs Whiscash, Luvdisc, and Crawdaunt, with Sealeo being 3HKOed in the rain Whiscash sets up
Sidney: 2HKOs most things with Surf or Ice Beam, with Ice Beam OHKOing Cacturne. Crawdaunt is the only threat due to SD + Strength, but Surf is a 3HKO.
Phoebe: beats first Dusclops, the Banette without TBolt, and Sableye
Glacia: not good here, the Glalie without Light Screen is the only reasonably beatable thing
Drake: Ice Beam OHKOs Salamence. If you survive, you can also OHKO Flygon, with Ice Beam 2HKOing Altaria and Shelgon if it doesn't die to them
Wallace: not good here, beats Ludicolo only
it was also good for Maxie and Archie, only struggling with Mightyena that has Swagger.
Brawly: beats Meditite and Machop, loses to Makuhita
Wattson: bad (loses even to Voltorb)
Flannery: beats everything but Torkoal (screw Attract + Sunny Day)
Norman: Protect allows you to screw with Slaking. Ice Beam 2HKOs Spinda and Vigoroth, if I remember correctly. This matchup I'd call good if you buy the Ice Beam TM from Game Corner (I had enough money to do so before Norman)
Winona: sweeps. Ice Beam takes care of pretty much everything and Surf takes care of Skarmory.
Tate and Liza: Surf 3HKOed all the Water-weak Pokemon
Juan: surprisingly well, Surf 3HKOs Whiscash, Luvdisc, and Crawdaunt, with Sealeo being 3HKOed in the rain Whiscash sets up
Sidney: 2HKOs most things with Surf or Ice Beam, with Ice Beam OHKOing Cacturne. Crawdaunt is the only threat due to SD + Strength, but Surf is a 3HKO.
Phoebe: beats first Dusclops, the Banette without TBolt, and Sableye
Glacia: not good here, the Glalie without Light Screen is the only reasonably beatable thing
Drake: Ice Beam OHKOs Salamence. If you survive, you can also OHKO Flygon, with Ice Beam 2HKOing Altaria and Shelgon if it doesn't die to them
Wallace: not good here, beats Ludicolo only
it was also good for Maxie and Archie, only struggling with Mightyena that has Swagger.
so I get it that you don't want a Ralts testing? If yes, I can test Chinchou / Carvanha / Voltorb / Kadabra / Golem, if no, I can test Ralts instead of Kadabra.
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Personally I think we've had more than enough Ralts arguments to have it's placement settled and would prefer to see another Kadabra run, but please run what you want to do.
Can you speak a bit more about how you found Wingull's power level? I personally found it much weaker than you seem to have experienced.
Maybe start with treecko for that fivesome? Torchic and Mudkip are pretty locked in but Treecko theoretically could move.
I didn't really find it to be weak or hitting like a noodle. I think its power level comes from just having STAB Surf, in all honesty, considering Surf has 95 BP here and you can also amplify its power with the Mystic Water that Castform is holding when you obtain it, but I don't think it's a bad thing. There's also the fact it having Flying STAB early on helped it deal with Grass-types, allowing it to grind Exp. somewhat more efficiently than another Water-type (not trying to compare, just using comparison to get my point clear), though I found myself using Flying STAB much less in later parts of the game (mostly because Ice Beam and Surf were just better options). But yeah, for route trainers it was pretty fine for me, only real problem is some random Electric-type (I don't think they were a lot, but I don't remember all the team rosters). I think a reason behind Wingull's power, at least if I were to assume, is because it arrives earlier and therefore grinds more EVs than other stuff.
I do have to note that my Pelipper was around level 51 for the League, but that's because I hunted a lot of Rare Candies (I got 16 in total) and I could get my mons to some reasonable levels and most of them are part of the story anyways (or are easy to get thanks to Fly). For Gym Leaders and etc., I think the only time it was higher level was with 2 levels for Winona and that's cause it's very easy to outlevel against her, though I doubt the 2 level difference would affect Pelipper's performance here.
If you wanted to know about IVs, I don't remember them exactly, but they were not super high, though I do have to point out I almost never use a Pokemon with bad IVs, unless the stat with bad IVs is irrelevant to me.
If you wanted to know something else, I'd appreciate if you were a bit more specific so I know what to answer exactly.
That's ok for me, but I am gonna drop something (maybe Chinchou, which I can test in a future run), because, from experience, 6-member teams are pain to grind for Exp.
I want to ask only what is the exact policy for levels? As I said, I could get my mons to around level 50 for the League thanks to Rare Candies. Do I have to strictly not outlevel Gym Leaders or there's some acceptable outleveling (in BW1, we allowed to outlevel Gyms by 2 levels because you had to TRY not to be outleveling, though for Emerald, I found it hard to outlevel anything other than Winona and *maybe* Tate & Liza).
Otherwise I have no other comments for now to make.
After I used Breloom and Hariyama and got about the same amount of success from both, can the Breloom fans explain why you think Breloom is better? Here's how I compare them.
Breloom:
more speed
learns leech seed
ends up with slightly higher physical attack and STAB base power
better against Roxanne and Wattson
Hariyama:
arrives at higher level
learns 70 BP STAB at lower level
learns dig and earthquake
better against Flannery, Winona, Phoebe, Glacia, and Drake
Breloom:
more speed
learns leech seed
ends up with slightly higher physical attack and STAB base power
better against Roxanne and Wattson
Hariyama:
arrives at higher level
learns 70 BP STAB at lower level
learns dig and earthquake
better against Flannery, Winona, Phoebe, Glacia, and Drake
I personally usually use 5 Pokemon because there's always more than 5 Pokemon that I want to test, but I still want to have one HM slave at all times. But I see no reason to say 5 is "standard" or "predominant" and 4 is "distorting". Use however many Pokemon you want.
Thanks for the comments. Mostly was just looking to see how it performed in boss fights, if it was ever able to do more than trade 1 for 1 or 2 for 1
There's no exact policy. For myself I like to battle every trainer so levels scale in my experience that way. Typically the 27-29 range is typical for Norman depending on if you have 3 or 4 mons by that time although some have pushed the occasional mon to 30-32. For the end game I consistently find that you end up right around the 45-47 bubble no matter how you go about it and on 6 mon parties grinding to 47 or 48 before taking on the E4, I would not go as high as 50 for any mon pre-E4 without just cause (e.g. fast XP groups, I had one playthrough where everything was at 48-49 without grinding because everything leveled up super fast). Regarding outleveling, I agree with your assessment that its difficult you outlevel any of the gym leaders, you're generally a level or two below their ace so don't worry about it if you do.
As a side note, Rare Candies are reasonable to use in some circumstances; for example in my Claydol run I used them to keep him at level pace with the rest of the team during the water gauntlet that required HMs; there was no other use for them and it didn't negatively impact the end level total, just cut some grinding. A casual playthrough should get anywhere from 6-10 Rare Candies, closer to 10 if you've played before.
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For my own experiences:
: Shroomish phase is fantastic; support movepool is great; better typing when it evolves; swords for better sweeping, faster speed is relevant in beating enemies, particularly when going for end game sweeps
: Makuhita phase is decent; beasts the mid-game after evolving; pure fighting type falls off heavily in defense in the middle game; by the late game the reduced speed becomes very noticeable as the power level rises and things are able to 2 or 3HKO; found it an unreliable sweeper who relies more heavily on potions to keep up4 is distorting in the sense that if you fight every trainer the levels you end up at for each gym will be consistently higher than a party of 5 or 6 and you will perceive the pokemon in different ways
Breloom doesn't get Swords Dance in this game (Well, it does in Emerald but that's a Frontier BP tutor post-game)For my own experiences:
How is grass fighting better than pure fighting in the middle game? Yes there are waters, but most of the threatening waters have ice attacks. (and Drake uses flamethrower) Which end game opponents are easier to sweep with Breloom?For my own experiences:
I get that smaller teams make the game different and usually easier, but I don't think that's a bad thing. If you test 4 E tier Pokemon, then you probably don't want a 5th team member stealing any of their precious experience.
Anything after T+L is late game, waters until that point don't have Ice Beam. The Electric resistance is the most immediate and obvious difference, plenty of rogue electric types through that chunk of the game; Wattson speaking for itself as well. The resistance to Water and Grass is also apparent at various points throughout the rest of the game. Both contribute to Hariyama taking up a heavier Potion load. The grass stab also provides an option to hit ghost types in the later middle game that Hariyama entirely lacks.
By definition making the game different and easier is a bad thing when you have multiple people trying to claim their opinion on a Mon as correct because both will have experienced the game in fundamentally different ways. Many of the lowest tier mons are also naturally fast experience groups which further pushes that disparity. As an example off the top of my head, my Poochyena run was effective at finding it to have a legitimate niche, but one that would likely have been oversold if it were 4 or 5 levels higher across the game.
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Yes I agree that Breloom is better before you defeat Wattson, but it rarely benefits from a water resistance and seemingly never benefits from a grass resistance. Mid-game waters and grasses usually lose to 1 or 2 strengths and don't get a chance to attack. The biggest exception is Winona's Pelipper, and the water resistance definitely doesn't help there.
Hariyama learns dig, which is stronger than Breloom's giga drain.
Dig which is incapable of hitting Duskull...
Which is beside the point. The better stab in sky uppercut (remember vital throw forces you to take a hit!) and the superior power/speed combo make for very clear differences in performance
As someone who's used both, I would echo the sentiment that Breloom is overall a better Pokémon than Hariyama. Both are very good, but Hariyama noticely has an extremely strong start but falls off somewhere after Normal; while Breloom I just find a consistently good Pokémon throughout the game. A lot of this is really down to speed; Hariyama is simply a small Pokémon just exacerbated by Vital Throw's negative priority meaning it needs a lot more help to stay healthy than Breloom who sort of just speeds through enemy after enemy with its only weaknesses being a low special attack and Sky Uppercut having a chance to miss. It's not S-tier but it was certainly very helpful.
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