Other PranksterSwag Teams

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ROFL, can people please stop saying ''x is a full stop to this''. There's no full stop, both the swagger user and the opponent are relying on the RNG, there's absolutely no counter for this ''strategy'' other than own tempo mons. Confusion is ridiculous uncompetitive, its even worse than baton pass and trapping, at least these two are solely matchup based. Confusion is matchup AND luck based which is just dumb. Seriously how the hell is this thing still allowed after 3 generations is beyond me.
It takes an insane amount of confusion hits for a combo like phys defensive Rotom + Excadrill to fall to this, so much that it's not even really worth mentioning. Well timed freezes and crits swing games way more often than swagger, and no one is deeming those uncompetitive.

The only time confusion has ever mattered to me in thousands of games is when it comes after a hurricane. Tornadus-T beating something because hurricane got a confusion and the other guy hit himself, leaving me alive long enough to get the 2hko, is basically the equivalent of getting a lucky freeze.
 
It takes an insane amount of confusion hits for a combo like phys defensive Rotom + Excadrill to fall to this, so much that it's not even really worth mentioning. Well timed freezes and crits swing games way more often than swagger, and no one is deeming those uncompetitive.

The only time confusion has ever mattered to me in thousands of games is when it comes after a hurricane. Tornadus-T beating something because hurricane got a confusion and the other guy hit himself, leaving me alive long enough to get the 2hko, is basically the equivalent of getting a lucky freeze.
What are you even talking about, there's nothing competitive about critical hits and freeze, it's just that there's nothing we can do about it because it's an ingame mechanic. Swagger on the other hand is a single move that can, and should gtfo of this game.
 
another good hard stop (not yet sure if it is a counter) to this strategy is Scarfed or Specs'd Noivern with Infiltrate and Switcheroo. I've had a good bit of success with it so far, basically neutering klefkis and sableyes, although some particularly douchey douches will get clever and opt for swagger before t-wave, so some luck is still required before you can successfully Switcheroo. As far as I know, the only counter strategy the haxxer team can use in response is to switch in their neutered haxxer on a knock off (something that you can control) or attempt a trick on a different poke later on (which is again, something you can predict or prepare for by running a second choicer). In either case, their leftovers will be gone and they'll be forced to switch at least once or fodder it off right on the spot. Keep in mind that this strategy is strictly meant for single battles as many of these teams can be arguably even more frustrating in doubles. The haxxer poke will often run alongside a supporter partner that can protect, quick guard, or even crafty shield (yes, I've seen klefki run as supporters to bluff being a second haxxer), among other things. Additionally, this setup is most ideal for facing a team with just one dedicated haxxer. Thankfully, this seems to be the most popular way to pranksterswag at the moment, but against a full team of haxxing asshats, Noivern will be left vulnerable after your first switcheroo. As always, make sure to bring Wish and/or Heal Bell/Aromatherapy/Safeguard support along with you to keep your sweepers safe. Even on pokes like Salamence and Bisharp that carry a Lum Berry, one status heal usually isn't enough. Sylveon and Florges remain the best two for performing this role.
 
Honestly, any physically bulky poke that hits specially (preferably immune to T-Wave), like Rotom-W should shut the strategy down, although I still feel the playstyle as a whole is an uncompetitive and retarded playstyle. At least paraflinch (comparable due to abusing the RNG) users are easier to manage, considering that missing the hax on the opponent typically means losing, or severely damaging, the paraflincher. Swagplayers can just hide behind the sub until they get the hax, softening the risk incurred in the opp breaking the hax.
 
What are you even talking about, there's nothing competitive about critical hits and freeze, it's just that there's nothing we can do about it because it's an ingame mechanic. Swagger on the other hand is a single move that can, and should gtfo of this game.
Maybe I phrased that wrong. Crits and freezes are far more uncompetitive than swagger, but are still manageable. Swagplay teams can be completely stopped by smart play with most well built teams (altho HO struggles... not that that's a bad thing considering how HO is pretty retarded right now itself).
 
Hey guys, I've been lurking for a while and never saw a reason to post up till today, hopefully this post will be useful to the thread.

Anyway, I hatched a shiny klefki (31 IVs ATK & SPD) and was debating if I should douche it up and run T-Swag, but looking for other interesting options, and I ran across this: Klefki learns Imprison. See where I'm going? Correct me if I'm wrong, I havnt done the research, but most Pranksters don't normally use EVs in speed, right? So if you run something like a Thunder Wave/Swagger/Imprision/ foul play or spikes or substitute, you completely shut down their strategy. Of course, this makes you a T-Swag-er too, but as long as the rest of your team is legit, that sounds okay to me.
 
Hey guys, I've been lurking for a while and never saw a reason to post up till today, hopefully this post will be useful to the thread.

Anyway, I hatched a shiny klefki (31 IVs ATK & SPD) and was debating if I should douche it up and run T-Swag, but looking for other interesting options, and I ran across this: Klefki learns Imprison. See where I'm going? Correct me if I'm wrong, I havnt done the research, but most Pranksters don't normally use EVs in speed, right? So if you run something like a Thunder Wave/Swagger/Imprision/ foul play or spikes or substitute, you completely shut down their strategy. Of course, this makes you a T-Swag-er too, but as long as the rest of your team is legit, that sounds okay to me.
It's a really interesting thought; like fight fire with fire. I don't know how I feel about the whole "becoming what you hate" type thing your strategy engenders, but it would probably be absolutely hilarious to see this in action.
 
Hey guys, I've been lurking for a while and never saw a reason to post up till today, hopefully this post will be useful to the thread.

Anyway, I hatched a shiny klefki (31 IVs ATK & SPD) and was debating if I should douche it up and run T-Swag, but looking for other interesting options, and I ran across this: Klefki learns Imprison. See where I'm going? Correct me if I'm wrong, I havnt done the research, but most Pranksters don't normally use EVs in speed, right? So if you run something like a Thunder Wave/Swagger/Imprision/ foul play or spikes or substitute, you completely shut down their strategy. Of course, this makes you a T-Swag-er too, but as long as the rest of your team is legit, that sounds okay to me.
Speaking from personal experience, when I used to use this back in BW (before you flame me, I've stopped since then because I realized how much of an ass I was being): I actually would use Speed EVs on my Pranksters, since fast Foul Plays were really important a lot of the time, and the strategy was by definition unreliable. It would typically be: first, max Speed, then give enough HP for the highest Leftovers number, and the rest in SpD. And looking at the moveset paste, I checked Liepard's EVs section and all of them had maxed Speed EVs, only one of the ones listed not using a +Spe nature.

So, unfortunately, as much as I really love this idea, in practice it's just not likely to work.

In seriousness: we really need a Confusion Clause that bans Swagger and Confuse Ray. This strategy is just fundamentally anti-competitive, and why this wasn't done the instant it caught on in BW NU is just beyond me.
 
Klefki learns Imprison. See where I'm going?
Yes, and I think it's a terrible idea to waste a teamslot on SwagPlay Imprison Klefki. Since the only SwagPlayer it outspeeds is Purrloin, and Purrloin isn't found anywhere but dedicated SwagTeams, they would both have to lead in order to shut down a team completely. It also does absolutely nothing else except be the problem that you want to solve, as singular SwagPlayers on an otherwise normal team can just switch to something that can set up on you.
 
besides, you would just be better off using substitute if you're faster, blocks swagfag moves and gives you a layer of protection to use against the opponent if they switch, which they will be forced to do if their swag mon can't hit you
 

Rotosect

Banned deucer.
For those interested, I recently posted a RMT that used Swagplay alongside things I found to be useful alongside it where I later dedicated a post to Pokemon my Swagplay core had trouble with. Take it as you will.
I gave this team a try and this was the result:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-87070289

Ditto's mere presence takes the "luck-based" part of Swag teams away and the results can be devastating for your opponent. Definitely something to keep in mind.
 
Since a good player can almost as easily lose against a swaggteam as a bad player, this is the ultimate "ladder trolling" team. I like to use pranskter teams vrey much (plz don't hate me) and you would not believe how irrationally angry some people get when they lose against these kind of teams. The shit I have gotten in PS for running prankster-swagg...OMG.

An counter-intuitive advice for the people who want to see this strategy banned: Use it!. Try to make a great team based around swagg-key and use it as much as you can. Try to escalate the ladder. If you can't, escalate the ladder with a better team and then use the swagg team in the higher ranking battles, just to fuck up the rating of the poor guy who happens to lose against you. I honestly think that if a critical amount of people (lets say 10% of the total) used swagg teams and trolled the ladder with them, so many people would be annoyed and there would be so many people calling for a ban, that swagger + prankster would be banned.
 
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Rotosect

Banned deucer.
Since a good player can almost as easily lose against a swaggteam as a bad player, this is the ultimate "ladder trolling" team. I like to use pranskter teams vrey much (plz don't hate me) and you would not believe how irrationally angry some people get when they lose against these kind of teams. The shit I have gotten in PS for running prankster-swagg...OMG.
This is absolutely true. If you run a Swag team on the low ladder expect 50% of your wins to end in insults and/or ragequits and even on the higher ladder people don't take losing to them well.

A lot can be said about such teams other than "they're luck-based". For starters, one should ask: "can a luck-based strategy be competitively viable"? The answer is yes.
Trying to win a match by spamming Ice Beam and hope to get lucky freezes over and over is a fool's errand, but the same can't be said about Scald spamming and Serene Grace+Iron Head/Air Slash abuse. Even though their effects aren't 100% guaranteed they have been proven to be reliable strategies in the long run.

Another thing that people underestimate about such teams is the safety net they create against offensive teams: as long as your Pranksters are around the opponent will never be able to guarantee a sweep. Not only that, but if you run Ditto then each time your Swagger spamming backfires you'll be able to turn the tables on your opponent and threaten to sweep his team.
There have been battles where I deliberately spammed Swagger until the opponent got to +6 attack, let my Prankster die, send Imposter Ditto in and proceed to run through his whole team like a hot knife through butter with +1 speed and +6 attack. Works wonders especially against Dragonite, Lucario and Garchomp.
Against players who aren't careful (like in the replay above) this can be potentially done right at the start of the match, though it's obviously better to wait till Sashes/Sturdy have been broken and potential revenge killers have been eliminated.
Even if the opponent is smart enough to switch out to avoid a Ditto sweep, it's only an extra turn of Leftovers/Substitute/more Swagger for you. Like when using Scarf Genesect, this puts the opponent into a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.

Here's another replay on the suspect ladder with the same team expect the 3 suspects have been replaced with the "next best thing": http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-87149935

Been said that, it should be obvious that good Swagger teams (read: those with 2-3 Pranksters at most, actual sweepers, hazards and Ditto) are more than "having a 50% chance to win". They're legitimate threats that perform especially well against offensive teams and physical set-up sweepers in general and shouldn't under any circumstance be underestimated.
Now whether they're uncompetitive or not is a whole other matter entirely.
 
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I find this 'Team' incredibly annoying, so I'll throw in my two cents.

First of all I do not consider this merely an evolution of the parafusion strategy, this is a different thing altogether. How? Two primary reasons: the first is that there are now multiple entry hazards (as opposed to just spikes in gen 2). The second is that unlike previous generations, Foul Play exists as well as Prankster.

Prankster is huge for this team because it allows a bypass of speed, paralysis or not. Normally when detailing with Parafusion or, similarly, something like Serene grace abuse you can switch in to something FASTER with lots of firepower and then this would counter it.

EG: Serene grace jirachi paralyzes my breloom, I know it will iron head me to death so I switch to scarf volcarona or something, and thus threaten it out. Or Fire Blast it, either way it's out of my hair for a while.

Prankster negates this completely, since no matter how fast you are prankster is still faster. Combine this with swagger and nothing can escape being Swaggered unless you get lucky and it misses. Even then, you'd have to OHKO the user (which is a difficult feat thanks to sub) and then dealing with the same thing again since that's how these teams work.

So yes, in order to counter this I believe the previous statements about how you have to run something like espeon or thunderus, or even whimsicott. I don't believe I have to give any reasons for how this severely limits teambuilding, or in some cases forces you to use non OU material, which only has its merits defeating swagplay and loses to anything standard in OU. The example of Numel comes to mind for this last point.

So now here is the question: how does one defeat this team without resorting to tactics that fail against every other standard team? I actually have the answer to this one, but it's not a very good answer: You spam attacking moves from the get go. See a Klefki? Spam earthquake. Do not switch, do not use any other move, just earthquake until it dies.

As someone pointed out earlier, switching is the worst thing you can do against these teams. They will merely spam swagger again and again, and your switching racks up entry hazard damage. You can win against these teams by merely NOT switching and adopt straight up offense.

The problem is, this strategy works only 50% of the time due to swagger. With the attack boosts, you can either get rid of a klefki with earthquake or hurt yourself while it fires up a sub and then its back to square one. But what about things like Thunderus, which also have prankster but can carry taunt? Essentially the same thing: Obviously these trolls are going to run max speed on all these pranksters for this reason. If you send out your thunderus against another thunderus, you have a 50/50 chance due to the speed tie of setting up your taunt. If you can't, refer to the aforementioned consequences.

Thus, if you wish to try and taunt them, you must run taunt Whimsicott of all things. So... do that if you want I guess. Maybe it'll work against the standard teams too?

What about Magic Bounce Xatu and Espeon? These could potentially work. A foresee a baton pass/sub set with espeon being a viable counter to these teams, but you cannot use setup moves like CM or you run into the ditto that most of these teams have, then its just GG sweep. In addition these things are somewhat frail, so I suspect in a game where you run into thunderus on the opposing team, they (especially xatu) would probably lose. That, or force you to keep switching (racking up entry hazard damage) proceeding to swagger until your counter is worn out.

Thus, you have to run your espeon to counter both thunderus and klefki at the same time, since one can potentially do a lot of damage to your counter while the other can use its incredible defensive typing to wall until the supereffective foul play defeats it. I do not believe espeon can counter these two at once, but if anyone can prove me wrong post that set and I'll consider using it.

So until someone finds and espeon that can counter Thunderus, Klefki, but does not set up (due to ditto), we will have to make do with what I believe to be the only hard counter to this team: Whimsicott, since it is the fastest prankster available. This will work until someone notices this threat and puts prankster whimsicott onto thier team.

If you don't feel like running that, then spam HO. You have a ~50% chance to win in this case.

Lastly, I'd love to go over all the other examples (rotom W, ground types etc) but my fingers are too tired from the material I have already posted, and I have class in five minutes so there's that.

In conclusion, these teams rely solely on luck to win, even in the case where the opponent is smart enough to not switch. This would not be a problem is it was one Pokemon, and could even be considered a viable strategy, but instead it is a 6 membered team composed of utilizing luck to win. There are some counters, but these are not hard counters (save maybe whimsicott and subpass espeon) and thus there is not true way I can think of to combat this.

Please give me your thoughts and comments. This needs to be dealt with, because I do not want a metagame based upon a coin flip.

Small edit: I did not mention t wave because I believe that is easier to deal with than swagger; just run a ground or electric type. Also, if anyone can post the calcs of standard kelfki foul play vs standard espeon and xatu, that would be appreciable.
 
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I do not believe espeon can counter these two at once, but if anyone can prove me wrong post that set and I'll consider using it.
Espeon @ Choice Scarf
Timid Nature
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
Trait: No Guard
-Sheer Cold

:3

Butrly, Espeon only works if you use it as a switch-in to bounce a swagger back that was intended for a different pokemon. Even then, if they see it on your team, they can always just predict the switch to espeon, set up a sub first, then go for the status.
 

Deluks917

Ride on Shooting Star
This is getting more and more common in the top100 of the ladder.

I really hope this gets a suspect test soon.

All full swagplay teams have seen are bad. But 2-3 swagplay mons + ditto teams are strong.
 
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SwagPlay makes ParaFlinch look elementary. I used to have feel shame when using Togekiss but not anymore! Regardless, I think the Prankster ability was a bad addition to the game in the first place. The Ditto + SwagPlay poke is nearly too good and can turn any opponent against them in a heartbeat. I'm all for banning SwagPlay considering you have to have multiple Pokemon to disrupt it.
 
I've been using mixed MegaAbsol with Icem Beam/Fire Blast/Play Rough and Sucker Punch, it wrecks all those Pokémons, if you don't wanna use this way you can keep switching between 2 Pokémon, preferable one immune to Thunder Wave.
 

Rotosect

Banned deucer.
If you don't feel like running that, then spam HO. You have a ~50% chance to win in this case.
HO are the kind of teams PranksterSwag is actually strong against because of how weak to Paralysis, Confusion, Foul Play and Ditto they are.
As I said the Pranksters create a safety net that makes the team essentially sweep-proof, with Ditto being a constant threat that can punish the opponent for not switching out a pokemon with stat boosts, including Swagger's attack boost.

A common misconception is that PranksterSwag team must run 4-6 Pranksters, when in fact 2-3 is the ideal number. It's like saying that good hail teams DP or BW had to be mono-ice when we know that the ideal number of ice types was 2-3 and the rest of the team was meant to synergyze with them.
Look at the teams above: Mega Lucario (Pinsir), Ditto, Genesect (Rotom-W), Deoxys-S (D), Thundurus-I and Klefki. Of the these, only Klefki is 100% reliant on the SwagPlay strategy, while the others are high tier pokemon who are extremely dangerous on their own and don't even need Prankster support to do their job.

A team full of Pranksters will just harass the opponent and occasionally induce a lucky win or a rage quit, but a solid Prankster team in skilled hands will win a lot more often than 50% of the time.
 
Everyone's talking about ditto, but it's easily taken care of by only confronting swagplay pokemon with bulky special attackers like Ro-dub. +6 attack isn't going to help a ditto who can only use volt switch or hydro pump.
 
Just cause something is good against a certain tactic or Pokemon doesn't mean they're not broken or noncompetitive. Should someone pack a Mandibuzz on every team when laddering just to play against Swagplay? On HO teams who can't afford to slap on a Mandibuzz, then what? Just get smacked around?
 

Deluks917

Ride on Shooting Star
User Senable is reliably over 1750 in OU using double prankster swagger + ditto and has many replays.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-87219550

(this is just one of hers/his)

Maybe the strategy fails at the very highest levels (I would not be able to tell since I cannot play at that level). But it seems pretty effective at and above the level most users are playing at.
 
Just cause something is good against a certain tactic or Pokemon doesn't mean they're not broken or noncompetitive. Should someone pack a Mandibuzz on every team when laddering just to play against Swagplay? On HO teams who can't afford to slap on a Mandibuzz, then what? Just get smacked around?
Yes, it makes it less competitive because it means it is nearly alway losing against teams with mandibuzz, which means they are less likely to get a higher rating overall.
 
Yes, it makes it less competitive because it means it is nearly alway losing against teams with mandibuzz, which means they are less likely to get a higher rating overall.
Non competitive means that it removes skill from the game and forces entire matches to be decided on luck. Thats exactly how you beat that mandibuzz player, by completely and utterly haxing the shit out him. The only counters for this strategy are own tempo mons, everything else can be beaten by sheer luck. Your replay is just further supporting how much confusion needs to be banned.
 
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