Pre-release Gen 7 Monotype Competitive Discussion

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scpinion

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#51
The Same Type Clause is what defines Monotype. We should strictly follow it.

This isn't about "what is the best thing for typeX" or "we did this through ORAS and I liked it" or "I think it is cool that some types have an advantage". It is about ensuring we follow the key premise of our metagame's concept. Intentionally creating teams that do not have all Pokemon sharing a type is antithetical to the whole concept of Monotype.

We goobered this up at the start of Gen6. This is us fixing it.
 
#52
The Same Type Clause is what defines Monotype. We should strictly follow it.

This isn't about "what is the best thing for typeX" or "we did this through ORAS and I liked it" or "I think it is cool that some types have an advantage". It is about ensuring we follow the key premise of our metagame's concept. Intentionally creating teams that do not have all Pokemon sharing a type is antithetical to the whole concept of Monotype.

We goobered this up at the start of Gen6. This is us fixing it.
Technically, they do all share the same type because of base forms. I agree with what Waszap said, it does in turn actually make the tier a lot more diverse and fun. While I do understand what you mean, I still don't see much of a point, we already are following the same types clause technically, so to me its almost a little silly. Clearly this is seeming to be a borderline issue, I think there should be a right to maybe debate about this.
 

Eien

I'll face myself
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Monotype Leader
#53
Going to take a more technical approach to addressing this Mega Evolution issue and hopefully put this to rest. This is a discussion thread, so please feel free to talk about it more. If you want to give an argument though, it should not rest in the idea that the pre-Mega Evolution forme grants the typing or that it makes Monotype "more fun", which comes at the cost of the integrity of our metagame. At any rate, here's "fun for the whole family!":

In spite of what Dece1t said, technically Mega Gyarados does not share a type with Flying teams. Mega Gyarados's typing is Water / Dark, something you simply cannot argue. If you have a Monotype team based around Flying-type Pokemon, does it make sense to have a Water / Dark Pokemon on the team? Mega Gyarados has no Flying elements at all, given that it is not immune to Ground-type attacks and does not get protected by Delta Stream, so it doesn't make any sense for it to be considered a Flying-type Pokemon.

For a more mechanical understanding, let's temporarily consider Monotype Balanced Hackmons, an OM that used to be played occasionally. For the record, Balanced Hackmons requires cartridge compliance, so anything that can be done in Balanced Hackmons can technically be done on the real ORAS games. In Balanced Hackmons, Mega Evolutions are usable without the prior use of a Mega Stone to Mega Evolve. This means you can use a Mega Gyarados with any item, such as Choice Band, if you so pleased. In Monotype, by the Same Type Clause, all Pokemon must share a type, and a Flying team in Monotype Balanced Hackmons could not use Mega Gyarados even under the current ORAS rules. Thus, I'd argue that Mega Gyarados is by definition not a Flying-type Pokemon and should not be legal on Flying teams.

Are there reasons that Gyarados's Flying typing should legalize Mega Gyarados by proxy other than "This is how it's been done before" or "It's more fun"? Neither are compelling, as the first is contrary to progress and the second is completely subjective. Also, just as our tiering philosophy does not favor one type over another, the foundational rules of the metagame should not made with the mindset of making any one X type more usable.

(I'll make some super small post-note that the fact that you can even use Mega Gyarados without a Mega Stone on cartridge is minor evidence that it should be considered a separate Pokemon and should not be grouped together with Gyarados for typing purposes)


On a different note, I personally don't think a Pokemon will be the first to be banned. My prediction is actually the weather rocks, assuming there is no extreme change to weather mechanics or power creep. 8 turns of 2x Speed Kingdra or Excadrill?

I'd also like to pose an extra question of my own for fun: What Pokemon that isn't currently going to be unbanned would you have liked to see tested in the new metagame? (This is my own personal curiosity, don't expect any extra unbans and please don't ask for Kyurem-W just to save Ice x-x...)
 

Acast

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#55
Also, smogon tiers mega evolutions separate from their base forms.
This is the only reason I supported the new policy on mega evolutions. At the start of Gen 6, megas were simply treated as an effect of the pokemon's held item, and therefore just another set the pokemon could run. Under a policy like that, it made sense to allow Mega Gyarados on Flying teams because regular Water/Flying Gyarados is the actual pokemon. Mega Gyarados just happens to be one of its sets.

Partway through Gen 6, smogon changed its policy and started treating mega evolutions as separate pokemon from their base forms. If megas are considered separate pokemon, then any restrictions that formerly just applied to their base form should be applied to the mega form too. Mega Pokemon can't just ignore clauses by relying on their base forms if they're being considered as entirely separate pokemon.

Looking back on it, we really should have enforced this back when Smogon changed its stance on megas, but we didn't. That's partly because it wasn't a very high priority, but also because not many people considered the implications at the time. This is us catching up with what should have happened in early/mid Gen 6. The transition into Gen 7 just happens to be an ideal time to start enforcing the new policy.
 

Eien

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Monotype Leader
#57
So when is the new same type clause policy going to take effect? Will it be permanent or just a trial?
As stated, the new system will be in place when SuMo releases and we can begin playing SuMo Monotype. It will not apply to ORAS, so none of your current teams will need to be changed.
 

Eien

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Monotype Leader
#59
Will I need to change my teams when SuMo releases though?
It will not apply to ORAS, so none of your current teams will need to be changed.
I am unsure how to make this more clear. If your team is legal for ORAS Monotype it will always be legal for ORAS Monotype. The new system is only and I really mean only for SuMo Monotype. Moving forward, you will likely be playing ORAS Monotype through the format likely titled: "[Gen 6] OU", similarly to how BW Monotype is played in the format [Gen 5] OU and DPP Monotype is played in the format [Gen 4] OU. Any battles under that format will still use the current ORAS Same Type Clause (self-enforced).

Monotype battles in the Gen 7 format will use the SuMo Same Type Clause

Monotype battles in the Gen 6 format will use the current ORAS Same Type Clause.
 

Zarif

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#60
Just played a few games vs TheThorn and I gotta say, SUMO Monotype is busted. It's literally so fun. I'm genuinely not being sarcastic. The transition from boring Bulky Offensive teams to this new Hyper Offensive/Offensive builds are amazing. I've currently built teams for 4 types; Fire, Steel, Water and, Fighting. Fire is my main type and I had to test out the new toys Mega Charizard X and Blaziken, while Steel and Water just felt busted. You get these busted Pokemon like Genesect/Mega Metagross/Aegislash on Steel and then Greninja/Mega Slowbro/Damp Rock on Water. While, Fighting gets a whole new playstyle with Baton Passing with Blaziken. I'll share what I've built and the replays:

Fire

I wanted to use Mega Charizard X and Blaziken in the same team. I mostly built it around them. I used Dragon Dance Mega Charizard X to act as a late-game sweeper, while Blaziken was my wallbreaker and Baton Pass user. Torkoal is my standard Stealth Rock user and entry hazard remover. I used Victini as my Choice Scarf user as it outspeeds the busted new Pokemon like Genesect/Mega Metagross/Greninja. As it is built around a Dragon Dance Mega Charizard X, I used Screens Support in Rotom-H. Rotom-H also functions as a Volt Switch user to bring in Blaziken/Mega Charizard X/Volcanion. Lastly, I put Volcanion to help with my weakness to Water moves.
Charizard-Mega-X @ Charizardite X
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Flare Blitz
- Roost

Blaziken @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Serious Nature
- Protect
- High Jump Kick
- Flare Blitz
- Baton Pass

Torkoal @ Leftovers
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Lava Plume
- Yawn

Victini @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Blue Flare
- Psyshock
- Bolt Strike
- U-turn

Rotom-Heat @ Light Clay
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp

Volcanion @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Bomb
- Earth Power

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-454360884 | Fire vs Fighting

Steel

You already know, this core almost completely brings back the early XY core of Mega Mawile/Genesect/Aegislash teams in Monotype. This time however, we have Mega Metagross, which is almost as good as Mega Mawile. I used the standard sets on Mega Metagross and Genesect to cover my weaknesses. I ran the Life Orb 3 attacks set on Aegislash to make it as offensive as possible with a backup option in King's Shield. Heatran was my Stealth Rock user and Fire immunity, while Skarmory was my defensive backbone and Spike setter. I used Bisharp as my set up sweeper with Lum Berry to clean up late-game after the first 3 broke everything.
Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Ice Punch
- Hammer Arm

Genesect @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- U-turn
- Ice Beam
- Flash Cannon
- Energy Ball

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Lava Plume
- Toxic
- Earth Power

Aegislash @ Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA
Lonely Nature
- King's Shield
- Shadow Ball
- Iron Head
- Sacred Sword

Skarmory @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Roost
- Whirlwind
- Brave Bird

Bisharp @ Lum Berry
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-454358795 | Steel vs Dark

Water

My main goal of this team was to weaken stuff with Greninja and Keldeo to let either Mega Slowbro or Azumarill clean up late-game. Greninja and Keldeo both had standard sets, while Mega Slowbro had a Calm Mind+Thunder Wave set and Azumarill had a Belly Drum set. I chose Rotom-W as my pivot to bring in the offensive attackers safely. Swampert was my Stealth Rock user and phazer. I also realize that this team lacks a Grass-type resist. I'd say running Empoleon over Swampert or Volcanion over Keldeo would easily fix this problem.
Slowbro-Mega @ Slowbronite
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Scald
- Calm Mind
- Slack Off

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Gunk Shot

Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 36 Def / 220 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split

Swampert @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Roar

Keldeo @ Choice Specs
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Scald
- Secret Sword
- Icy Wind

Azumarill @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Knock Off
- Belly Drum

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-454363570 | Water vs Psychic

Fighting

Just want to clarify, this whole team was TheThorn's idea. The dude is literally a magician and one of the best Monotype players I've come across. Anyway, on with the team, it is built around Baton Pass Blaziken passing it to Swords Dance Mega Heracross. Mega Heracross, as we know is a deadly Pokemon, it's average Speed is what hindered it from really shining, but with Baton Pass, it is a huge threat now. Breloom is used to Spore and let Blaziken/Mega Heracross come in safely. It also helps against Water teams. Keldeo is my wallbreaker with a Choice Specs. I chose Terrakion as my Choice Scarfer to help deal with Flying teams. Cobalion is used to help deal with Fairy-types and set up Stealth Rock.
Breloom @ Focus Sash
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Rock Tomb

Keldeo @ Choice Specs
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Scald
- Secret Sword
- Icy Wind

Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Iron Head

Heracross-Mega @ Heracronite
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Pin Missile
- Close Combat
- Rock Blast

Blaziken @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Flare Blitz
- Baton Pass
- Protect

Cobalion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Iron Head
- Volt Switch
- Thunder Wave

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-454360884 | Fighting vs Fire

As we can see, I'm the worst Monotype player alive. Also, I know the teams might have a few problems that I might've missed, please keep in mind that I'm still in the middle of testing them. Now back to the metagame: Dark and Psychic too, apparently are busted. Hoopa-U/Greninja/Mega Sableye make a deadly core. Psychic now has a new toy in Mega Metagross and can even run a more defensive team with Mega Slowbro. Hope to see more replays and teams posted in this thread and I would love to see this turn into an actual tier.
 
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#61
Will there be any form of this teir where we can play without Megas? I think this is especially important for this meta because of how much GF themselves are limiting where megas can be used. If we actually have both I wonder which will be more popular, the mega or non mega meta. Will people want more options or will they want to stay closer to how SuMo online play goes if possible.
 
#62
Will there be any form of this teir where we can play without Megas? I think this is especially important for this meta because of how much GF themselves are limiting where megas can be used. If we actually have both I wonder which will be more popular, the mega or non mega meta. Will people want more options or will they want to stay closer to how SuMo online play goes if possible.
I really don't see a need for a non mega tier, nor do I think it would gain significant popularity.
 
#63
If we could have a SuMo meta where everything that was unbanned could remain until the new year, monotype would be the most fun in a long time. Like Zarif said, these teams will be horribly overpowered, but I really don't mind having the literal Titans of Monotype available for even a tournament. Imagine a Seasonal with access to Greninja, Mega Meta, etc.
 
#64
having the literal Titans of Monotype available for even a tournament.
This actually sounds pretty cool. What I was thinking of was after the banlist gets fixed and all the broken stuff is gone, we could do a "Titans" tournament for fun with all of the stuff that recently got un/banned. I don't like the idea of doing it for a seasonal since those are essentially more important, especially if you take the Power Rankings into account.
 
#66
I didn't play Monotype back when all those were unbanned, but that team was scary. 10/10 would Gen 7 again.

Would these tours have any effect on which things will be banned first, or is it just for fun because when SM drops we'll be getting new Pokemon anyway?
 

scpinion

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#67
I didn't play Monotype back when all those were unbanned, but that team was scary. 10/10 would Gen 7 again.

Would these tours have any effect on which things will be banned first, or is it just for fun because when SM drops we'll be getting new Pokemon anyway?
I view them as "for fun". There are going to be all sorts of new Pokemon and new mechanics in the actual metagame.
 
#68
The Same Type Clause is what defines Monotype. We should strictly follow it.

This isn't about "what is the best thing for typeX" or "we did this through ORAS and I liked it" or "I think it is cool that some types have an advantage". It is about ensuring we follow the key premise of our metagame's concept. Intentionally creating teams that do not have all Pokemon sharing a type is antithetical to the whole concept of Monotype.

We goobered this up at the start of Gen6. This is us fixing it.
I do not believe this is something that should be decided for the players. I'd prefer that this be left to vote. The teambuilder accepted the teams as monotype. Thus, intentionally or not, this way of building was officially sponsored by Showdown. This clause actually adds an unnecessary amount of bans to the metagame for affected types that could make the metagame harder to understand for new players. This is the opposite of what type bans being eliminated was meant to achieve. If you'd like to make large, course altering decisions for the metagame then please involve the players instead of deciding for them as if they were children who can't think for themselves. It is not difficult to set voting requirements and there is an ample amount of time, 5 weeks. Forcing this upon us without our input is blatantly offensive to our entire community.

Note: This clause modification indirectly creates type bans for items. Which means, by necessity of consistency created by the removal of type bans, these items would have to be instead globally banned, despite being undeserving of such removal.
 
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Eien

I'll face myself
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Monotype Leader
#69
I do not believe this is something that should be decided for the players. I'd prefer that this be left to vote. The teambuilder accepted the teams as monotype. Thus, intentionally or not, this way of building was officially sponsored by Showdown. This clause actually adds an unnecessary amount of bans to the metagame for affected types that could make the metagame harder to understand for new players. This is the opposite of what type bans being eliminated was meant to achieve. If you'd like to make large, course altering decisions for the metagame then please involve the players instead of deciding for them as if they were children who can't think for themselves. It is not difficult to set voting requirements and there is an ample amount of time, 5 weeks. Forcing this upon us without our input is blatantly offensive to our entire community.

Note: This clause indirectly creates type bans for items. Which means, by necessity of consistency created by the removal of type bans, these items would have to be instead globally banned, despite being undeserving of such removal.
First, about the "officially sponsored by Showdown" thing, you don't need to worry! When the clause is changed, the new system will be "officially sponsored by Showdown" (using your words) and the current system will be officially "denounced" by Showdown for SuMo Monotype. I hope, since you have expressed a great concern over whether or not we are "officially sponsored", that you'll be glad to hear this.

Second, given how often people ask why a Pokemon that blatantly doesn't share the typing of its teammates is allowed to be used in Monotype, I would actually argue that it would reduce confusion from newer players. Is it confusing why a Steel-type is not allowed on a Rock team? I'd say that's less confusing than the opposite. Would a new player find it confusing if Registeel wasn't allowed on a Rock team?

Third, the removal of type bans was to remove complex bans. The Same Type Clause does not create a type ban and is not complex: all Pokemon and non-volatile formes of said Pokemon must share a type with the rest of the team. You would not say: "Doublade is type banned from Bug, Dark, Dragon, Electric, Fairy, Fighting, Fire, Flying, Grass, Ground, Ice, Normal, Poison, Psychic, Rock, and Water". That simply is not logical because it is just against the Same Type Clause and the definition of Monotype for Doublade to be used on any of those teams. Similarly, disallowing Gyaradosite from Flying teams, for example, would not constitute a complex ban, it would be against the definition of Monotype in the first place, and thus would be just like disallowing the use of Doublade on Bug teams. There is no complexity or parallels to type bans at all here.

I'd love to read any reasons you have against the new Same Type Clause. However, I would prefer it if you didn't attempt to incite dissent in the community by both misconstruing the nature of the new clause and the intentions of the council in making it. I haven't had anyone come to me disagreeing with the clause that still disagreed after we talked. This of course assumes that the complaint is coming from someone open-minded and willing to make changes to improve the integrity of the very foundation of our metagame.

I wonder if I should even call it a "new" Same Type Clause when it's really just the old clause but with a more legitimate interpretation of it.
 
#70
First, about the "officially sponsored by Showdown" thing, you don't need to worry! When the clause is changed, the new system will be "officially sponsored by Showdown" (using your words) and the current system will be officially "denounced" by Showdown for SuMo Monotype. I hope, since you have expressed a great concern over whether or not we are "officially sponsored", that you'll be glad to hear this.

Second, given how often people ask why a Pokemon that blatantly doesn't share the typing of its teammates is allowed to be used in Monotype, I would actually argue that it would reduce confusion from newer players. Is it confusing why a Steel-type is not allowed on a Rock team? I'd say that's less confusing than the opposite. Would a new player find it confusing if Registeel wasn't allowed on a Rock team?

Third, the removal of type bans was to remove complex bans. The Same Type Clause does not create a type ban and is not complex: all Pokemon and non-volatile formes of said Pokemon must share a type with the rest of the team. You would not say: "Doublade is type banned from Bug, Dark, Dragon, Electric, Fairy, Fighting, Fire, Flying, Grass, Ground, Ice, Normal, Poison, Psychic, Rock, and Water". That simply is not logical because it is just against the Same Type Clause and the definition of Monotype for Doublade to be used on any of those teams. Similarly, disallowing Gyaradosite from Flying teams, for example, would not constitute a complex ban, it would be against the definition of Monotype in the first place, and thus would be just like disallowing the use of Doublade on Bug teams. There is no complexity or parallels to type bans at all here.

I'd love to read any reasons you have against the new Same Type Clause. However, I would prefer it if you didn't attempt to incite dissent in the community by both misconstruing the nature of the new clause and the intentions of the council in making it. I haven't had anyone come to me disagreeing with the clause that still disagreed after we talked. This of course assumes that the complaint is coming from someone open-minded and willing to make changes to improve the integrity of the very foundation of our metagame.

I wonder if I should even call it a "new" Same Type Clause when it's really just the old clause but with a more legitimate interpretation of it.
Pokemon are considered by what type they are, not what type the item they hold will make them. Does Mega Aggron's existence change that Aggron is a Rock type? It does not. So, in turn, Aggronite is therefore by this new modification being forced to be banned from being held by Aggron on Rock. That's the very defintion of complexity, there's way too many situational requirements. Items are not Pokemon. Thusly they cannot be treated like Pokemon and grouped like Pokemon, otherwise Mega Gyarados would be somehow usable by Dark. How will you explain to a new player that their Gyarados cannot hold a Gyaradosite because it's on Flying and then in the same vein justify the lack of type bans? So despite your claim, I heavily disagree with you because your argument equates items to Pokemon. It is without a doubt an indirect insertion of complex bans into the metagame.

Normal Ban: Arceus cannot be used. (1st and only condition.)
Type-Ban (Which was labeled Complex.): The Pokemon Aegislash may not be used (1st condition) by Steel but may be used by Ghost. (Type is the 2nd condition.)
Obviously Complex Ban: The item Aggronite cannot be held (1st condition) by Aggron (2nd condition) on a Rock type team. (3rd condition.)
 
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Acast

Classy af
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
#71
Pokemon are considered by what type they are, not what type the item they hold will make them. Does Mega Aggron's existence change that Aggron is a Rock type? It does not. So, in turn, Aggronite is therefore by this new modification being forced to be banned from being held by Aggron on Rock. That's the very defintion of complexity, there's way too many situational requirements. Items are not Pokemon. Thusly they cannot be treated like Pokemon and grouped like Pokemon, otherwise Mega Gyarados would be somehow usable by Dark. How will you explain to a new player that their Gyarados cannot hold a Gyaradosite because it's on Flying and then in the same vein justify the lack of type bans? So despite your claim, I heavily disagree with you because your argument equates items to Pokemon. It is without a doubt an indirect insertion of complex bans into the metagame.

Normal Ban: Arceus cannot be used. (1st and only condition.)
Obviously Complex Ban: The item Aggronite cannot be held (1st condition) by Aggron (2nd condition) on a Rock type team. (3rd condition.)
We're conforming to what smogon has already done for most of this generation. This isn't new. Mega evolutions are not just another item a pokemon can run. They are treated as different pokemon entirely. Gyarados is UU. Mega Gyarados is OU. They are different pokemon and are tiered differently because of smogon's stance toward mega evolutions. If you disagree with that stance, you should take it up with smogon's senior staff since they're the ones that made the decision to tier mega evolutions separately from their base forms.
 

Eien

I'll face myself
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Monotype Leader
#72
Pokemon are considered by what type they are, not what type the item they hold will make them. Does Mega Aggron's existence change that Aggron is a Rock type? It does not. So, in turn, Aggronite is therefore by this new modification being forced to be banned from being held by Aggron on Rock. That's the very defintion of complexity, there's way too many situational requirements. Items are not Pokemon. Thusly they cannot be treated like Pokemon and grouped like Pokemon, otherwise Mega Gyarados would be somehow usable by Dark. How will you explain to a new player that their Gyarados cannot hold a Gyaradosite because it's on Flying and then in the same vein justify the lack of type bans? So despite your claim, I heavily disagree with you because your argument equates items to Pokemon. It is without a doubt an indirect insertion of complex bans into the metagame.

Normal Ban: Arceus cannot be used. (1st and only condition.)
Type-Ban (Which was labeled Complex.): The Pokemon Aegislash may not be used (1st condition) by Steel but may be used by Ghost. (Type is the 2nd condition.)
Obviously Complex Ban: The item Aggronite cannot be held (1st condition) by Aggron (2nd condition) on a Rock type team. (3rd condition.)
I already discussed why you're misunderstanding what type a Pokemon is.

In regards to it being complex, it's simply by definition of Monotype not allowed. Is the following logic valid?

Doublade may not be used (1st condition) by Bug teams (2nd condition), Dark teams (3rd condition)... but may be used by Ghost (17th condition) or Steel (18th condition). Thus, Doublade is type banned from 16 types and this constitutes a complex ban.

If you think that's valid, then I'm afraid we can't agree on how Monotype works and your argument won't sway me at all. If you do agree, then by definition you must agree that disallowing the use of Aggronite is not a complex ban.
 
#73
I already discussed why you're misunderstanding what type a Pokemon is.

In regards to it being complex, it's simply by definition of Monotype not allowed. Is the following logic valid?

Doublade may not be used (1st condition) by Bug teams (2nd condition), Dark teams (3rd condition)... but may be used by Ghost (17th condition) or Steel (18th condition). Thus, Doublade is type banned from 16 types and this constitutes a complex ban.

If you think that's valid, then I'm afraid we can't agree on how Monotype works and your argument won't sway me at all. If you do agree, then by definition you must agree that disallowing the use of Aggronite is not a complex ban.
Your argument is invalid because you are trying to justify yourself by using a Pokemon as an example. An Aggronite is not a Pokemon, and thus you have no valid argument.

We're conforming to what smogon has already done for most of this generation. This isn't new. Mega evolutions are not just another item a pokemon can run. They are treated as different pokemon entirely. Gyarados is UU. Mega Gyarados is OU. They are different pokemon and are tiered differently because of smogon's stance toward mega evolutions. If you disagree with that stance, you should take it up with smogon's senior staff since they're the ones that made the decision to tier mega evolutions separately from their base forms.
There is a failing in this argument in that a Mega evolution can never be tiered lower than its base form because that would necessitate its base form being in the lower tier. Also, thank you for the advice. We can end the argument in this thread here, as I will go take it up with them.
 

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#74
There is a failing in this argument in that a Mega evolution can never be tiered lower than its base form because that would necessitate its base form being in the lower tier.
I don't see how there is a "failing" in my argument. But again, it seems that your issue is with smogon's position on mega evolutions rather than with our policy update. I'll say this again: We as a metagame are simply falling in line with what smogon has done for quite some time. If you sincerely think there is a flaw in smogon's position on mega evolutions, the only thing I can suggest is that you to take it up with the people who have authority over that decision. I can't promise they'll take you seriously, but at least you'll be getting to the root of what you seem to think is an issue.
 
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#75
I do not believe this is something that should be decided for the players. I'd prefer that this be left to vote. The teambuilder accepted the teams as monotype. Thus, intentionally or not, this way of building was officially sponsored by Showdown. This clause actually adds an unnecessary amount of bans to the metagame for affected types that could make the metagame harder to understand for new players. This is the opposite of what type bans being eliminated was meant to achieve. If you'd like to make large, course altering decisions for the metagame then please involve the players instead of deciding for them as if they were children who can't think for themselves. It is not difficult to set voting requirements and there is an ample amount of time, 5 weeks. Forcing this upon us without our input is blatantly offensive to our entire community.

Note: This clause modification indirectly creates type bans for items. Which means, by necessity of consistency created by the removal of type bans, these items would have to be instead globally banned, despite being undeserving of such removal.
Although I don't necessarily like the new clause, you have to agree by what it stands. It is monotype, and the premise is that the entire team be one type. Having a mon turn into a different type goes against the very essence of what makes monotype, well, monotype. And it's not really complex to understand, the rule is that a mega form can only be used if it retains the type of the team. Pretty simple to understand in my opinion. I know what you are trying to get at, but there are better ways to state this rather than being so aggressive.

"Items are not Pokemon. Thusly they cannot be treated like Pokemon and grouped like Pokemon, otherwise Mega Gyarados would be somehow usable by Dark."
and im sure ur well aware that mega stones are not equal to other items like choice scarf, it is classed differently because of the form changes. It does not just change one thing about a pokemon, but rather everything about it, making it completely new. There is a reason the mega form is tiered differently as stated above.
 
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