Pre-release Gen 7 Monotype Competitive Discussion

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Acast

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Yeah, wow. Gen 7 is going to be quite the show. It hasn't even officially begun yet, but we've already seen major, but welcome shifts in tiering philosophy, something which was unthinkable before!

Funny how it worked out like that, but aside from that, the advent of some of these Pokemon seems like it's going to invert the match up for many types, or at the least, equalize it in some form.

On a different note, I wanted to see if anyone else would like to play the devil's advocate with me.

Kartana (Grass/Steel)


59/181/131/59/31/109


A lot of the talk surrounding it says that it should be banned, and with 181 Atk and 109 speed, it's easy to assume so. To attempt to balance it out, though, its move pool is lacking high power. Next to Giga Impact, its strongest move is STAB Leaf Blade. Its arsenal consists of Sacred Sword (90 BP), X-Scissor (80 BP), Leaf Blade (80 BP), Psycho Cut (70 BP), Night Slash (BP), Smart Strike (70 BP). High attack, but 'weak' moves. I've put together some calcs to demonstrate its effect on the meta vs some walls and various Pokemon along with some of my thoughts against other types. I decided to go with a classic LO set with a jolly nature.

Psychic
252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 330-393 (83.7 - 99.7%) - hate Slowbro lol
252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 257-304 (92.4 - 109.3%) - could use EVs

Flying
252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Night Slash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 147-173 (38.3 - 45.1%) - huh
252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 199-235 (61.6 - 72.7%) - after rocks (multiscale removed)

Dark
252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Smart Strike vs. 240 HP / 216+ Def Mandibuzz: 138-164 (32.7 - 38.9)
Pretty much destroys the other Dark types though.

Fairy
252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 335-398 (85 - 101%) - Flamethrower

Fighting
252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 265-312 (68.6 - 80.8%) - Twave but scarf fighting will be annoying anyway

Ground is going to have a tough time against Kartana, but as a Grass Pokemon, that's to be expected.
252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 346-408 (82.3 - 97.1%)
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 402-473 (126 - 148.2%) - beast boost

Water should be having a tough time too, but again, Grass type.
Dragon should be relatively fine.
Steel should also be fine with Skarmory and Mega Scizor as walls.

Grass, against the right moveset, will have trouble, making it important to play well with HP Fire Serp and Breloom.
Poison could be swept with SD + Psycho Cut + Smart Strike. Focus Blast Gengar is key or maybe scarf Nidoking? Salazzle will also roast it up.
Normal, Rock, and Ice are going to be rolled over from STAB + SSword.
Electric, Bug, Fire, and Ghost should be well off with Ghost being a questionable call, but with Gengar, Marshadow, Chandelure, and Sableye, I think it'll be fine.


After reading that, do you think Kartana has a place in the metagame or did it just serve to strengthen your reservations about it?

To me, Beast Boost is the deal breaker. I would have said this was fine (call me crazy), but Beast Boost will probably push this over the edge. I wanna see it actually play out first though.
Lol I was close-minded back then wasn't I. Oh well, I'm glad I came around because I believe the change to our mega evolution policy is better on multiple levels.

Since I only care about Poison teams, here is my take on the new poison mons and their impact on the type:

- Alolan Muk (poison/dark): 105/105/75/65/100/50
---- This will be the poison/dark of choice at least at first; it is bulky while also packing a good punch. Drapion/Skuntank are both faster than this thing and can boast some good things over it (both have access to Pursuit, with Skuntank having worse stats but a better movepool in Sucker Punch and Defog) but A-Muk's hidden ability Power of Alchemy allows it to copy the ability of a defeated foe which could lead to interesting situations. Too bad it doesn't get Pursuit/Sucker Punch... Definitely worth messing around with; its Curse set looks especially dangerous:

A-Muk @ Black Sludge
252 Atk/Def, 6 SpDf
Power of Alchemy

Curse
Knock Off/Payback
Poison Jab/Gunk Shot
Coverage of choice (Rock Slide, Brick Break, Explosion, etc.)

- Toxapex (poison/water): 50/63/152/53/142/35
---- This looks like a more wallish Tentacruel; its base stat spread is reminiscent of Ferrothorn, and its HA of Regenerator makes this a pain in the ass to kill. The set on my mind, however, will be:

Toxapex @ Black Sludge / Poison Barb (for damage boost)
252 HP/SpA
Ability: Merciless (if enemy is poisoned, all attacks will crit)

Baneful Bunker (works like Protect but will poison any enemy who attacks w/ a contact move)
Venoshock (for double damage + crit after poisoning)
Toxic Spikes
Recover

- Salazzle (poison/fire): 68/64/60/111/60/117
---- Faster but less powerful than Gengar on the special side. Fire-typing will help vs Scizor, but there's not much this thing can reliably switch in on. 4x weakness to ground also sucks, and its special coverage is limited to poison/fire/dragon moves with hidden power. I honestly wish this thing had a more defensive base stat spread so that we could abuse its ability Corrosion, which lets it poison steel/poison types....

- UB-01 AKA Nihilego (rock/poison): 109/53/47/127/131/103
---- Now this is a special attacker! Its ability Beast Boost will boost the stat that is the most proficient (not sure if this is off of base stats or actual stats, but if it is for actual, its speed can be tweaked to be a couple points above its special attack w/ nature and EVs so that it works like a "speed-Moxie")... terrifying, to say the least.
Also, look at this things's movepool: Power Gem (Yes!), Sludge Wave, Thunder(bolt), Charge Beam (for boosting), Dazzling Gleam, Psychic, Stealth Rock, T-Wave... yes, it is quad-weak to ground (and will get destroyed by Bullet Punch or Aqua Jet), but it's almost a moot point if it can nab a speed boost w/ its ability...

Other observations:

Gengar lost Levitate! Still useful, but definitely not S-rank worthy, especially in light of UB-01 (who can equip an Air Balloon which will help it stick around and activate Beast Boost)

Arbok, Ariados and Qwilfish all got a +10 BST boost (attack, special defense, and defense respectively); still mostly useless compared to their competition..

Weather wars are sorta back with Pelipper and especially Torkoal/Gigalith; all players should brace themselves for a rush of weather-abusing teams and poison is no exception.

Analysis: Poison is no longer restricted to running bulky-offense to succeed in the meta. It won't be a top tier type by any means, but there is now enough viable variety to try your hand at HO, toxic-stall, or a number of other team archetypes.
Alolan Muk does get Pursuit as an egg move. I'll be using it over Drapion any day. Skuntank will have a niche as a Defog mon and Sucker Punch user, but A-Muk will be the star for sure.
 

scpinion

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I haven't posted many thoughts here. In fact, I think my only posts are the announcement of our gen7 plans and being disgruntled with people's response to the mega-evo change.

Now that we have almost everything data-mined, I'll share some thoughts on the early meta!

10 things:

1) Psychic is way too good. We (the council) will nerf it ASAP, or at least I think we will. As for how to nerf it: I would prefer to severely nerf it so it completely comes back to the meta, then consider re-introducing something through a suspect test later in the gen. For instance, I currently think banning Mega Bro :(, Mega Metagross, Topu Lele, and Hoopa-U would be a good thing for the early meta. That removes, the best defensive mega, the best offensive mega, a terrain setter that is going to leave many types unable to handle Psy, and Psychic's best non-mega wall-breaker (arguably the best including megas). Those 4 changes will likely still leave it as a top-tier type, but one the metagame can adapt to. Later, once the other types have settled, we can consider reintroducing something from this list through a suspect test to see how a developed metagame can respond to a major threat.

2) Those changes to Psychic will indirectly nerf Steel, Water, Dark, and Fairy, but I think they're going to require quick attention too. Greninja doesn't look like it will be healthy, Diancie could become problematic with the new mechanics, Aegislash doesn't look like it will be any less broken either. Genesect will still be as annoying as ever.

3) Ultra Beasts. Some of these are definitely broken (Pheromosa, being forced to RK w/ priority is too centralizing). Some are likely going to be broken because of that ability, but would have been fine w/o it. My biggest take away from them is they might provide new respectable 'mons to lower-tier types (Rock, Poison, Electric, Grass). For that reason, I want to give the metagame a chance to adapt to them. I really hope Arken is right about the Grass/Steel one, and I'm excited to see what happens with the Electric one. None of them have reliable recovery they can make use of, so that might help keep them in check too.

4) Many of our unbans are going to be quickly banned again. Aegi, Greninja, Blaziken, Weather Rocks are all things that the meta doesn't seem to have new tools to handle. I see them leaving early.

5) Mega Altaria, Mega Sableye, and Mega Charizard X. I'm really curious to see how these play out. They all make their respective types into serious metagame threats that must be prepared for. Mega-Sab and Mega-Alt do not appreciate all the new fairies (likely most top- and mid- tier types will run at least one), so that could help keep them in check. I'm stoked for CharX Fire! Our inability to create an environment where that was legal in gen6 without resorting to complex bans is probably my biggest regret from my time as part of Monotype's leadership—I really wish I would have been more vocal about my thoughts when the council was initially formed. Overall, I don't think any of these 3 will be broken enough for me to support a council ban in the early stages. I could easily be proven wrong though.

6) Darkrai on Dark teams. Dark teams have always wanted/needed a fast, strong special attacker that wasn't broken asf (i.e Greninja). Darkrai is that. I think the metagame can adapt to its presence, so I'm excited for the increased viability it could bring to Dark. I've seen some people saying it will be completely broken, though. It will be fun to see how it plays out.

7) Terrain setters. For one, I had to go look up all the exact terrain mechanics! The terrains look to be a nice boon to Electric and Grass, which is a welcome change. I really don't see the Psychic Topu being allowed in the meta long term. The only saving grace for it might be that Psychic teams often forego a large amount of Psychic STAB, but that extra 1.5x boost could change that and it will almost certainly run Psychic STAB itself. Blocking priority is annoying, but many types didn't rely on priority to beat Psychic anyways. The Water Topu creates an interesting conundrum for Water teams. Both sides become immune to status, which means spamming Scald isn't viable when the terrain is up. I think it will find a home on some teams as a bulky wincon with CM, two good STABs with excellent attacking coverage, and a final move for utility (e.g. Taunt, Defog) or to hit specific threats (e.g. Ice Beam). Fairy teams aren't limited to the generic Klefki & friends build anymore!

8) Electric Teams. Man, where to begin with this? I've long thought that making Electric a mid-tier type would make Monotype a better metagame. It has always been so close, but just lacking to the point where it was tough to consistently win with the type (unless you're a mono lord). This gen, Topu Koko comes along to help (I really hope it isn't too strong for the meta), Golem becomes a viable hazard setter, and that UB is definitely a good wall-breaker. It already had a nice defensive core in Rotom + Zapdos plus other good 'mons to fill specific roles. I really think Electric is shaping up to be a solid type this gen and I'm excited about it!

9) Z-moves. I think I'm in the minority with this one, but I actually don't see them being too bad... If I understand the mechanics correctly, they require your item slot and are single use. Many Pokemon don't want to give up their item slot for a 1-time-use move. Sure, they're going to heavily damage something, but only once. Overall, I think they'll just add an additional layer of depth that we're going to have to account for when making team-building and in-battle decisions. That might be annoying in some cases, but isn't unhealthy/broken.

10) RIP Talonflame

Edit: turns out it is Topu, not Topo

Edit 2: I should learn to read... Tapu
 
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DEG

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Yep I am still alive. I'll go just give my two cents on the metagame, I might or not be there for testing so why not just give some speculations.

Like we all already figured out, Psychic is looking to still be dominating the Monotype metagame come Gen 7, it really has a lot of new tools and old cores will still work perfectly. It definitely needs a nerf but I don't need hitting both sides would be a good tactic, I don't see a type taking an arrow to the knee for Psychic but we will see how that turns out.

In general, I do think Tapus are going to be broken. Yes all of them. They have great stats, and what was a weather war in Gen 5 will turn to a terrain war in Gen 7 which is way to unhealthy and seriously not needed here.

I do agree on previously banned Pokemon being problematic but not all of them warrant a quick ban in the beginning (Blaziken, Mega Metagross), I don't think we can judge that early without some testing. But we can predict that Greninja, Aegislash and Mega Slowbro are still borderline and seems more broken than no, but again we can't really judge on something we haven't tried. Previously banned Pokemon such as Mega Altaria and Darkrai will still be broken in the metagame, for Mega Charizard X maybe it might be too much due to Torkoal now getting drought, and I definitely see Weather Rocks being banned. Genesect might be okay enough to be in the metagame, same as Mega Sableye.

Can we please ban Ultra beasts lol, their abilities will probably be way to hard to handle. UBs stats have great distribution that highly boosts one terrific side.

Z moves are disgusting, you literally trade one item spot for one Pokemon on the opponent's side. The only thing that knocked back Gen 7 for me are Z moves lol, I hate them more than Sableye.


ALSO ALOLAN MUK ON DARK TEAMS GON BE DANK AND PSYCHIC FANG MEGA SHARPEDO.

(ofc dark is hit the most in gen 7, mega diancie, rip gren hoopa darkrai, no new mons, twave nerf rip ttar.
 
Speaking of Ultra Beasts! Xurkitree, the pure Electric-type one that looks like a bunch of live wires taped together, has a calc which I think is absolutely great!

+3 252+ SpA Life Orb Xurkitree Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 415-489 (58.9 - 69.4%)
+3 252+ SpA Life Orb Xurkitree Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 331-391 (51.6 - 60.9%)

While maybe impractical to pull off against a Normal team and would probably be a bad move because you don't want a scarf Xurkitree (Ditto) with a Tail Glow boost running around, this just goes to show off ALL the power! Did Electric hate facing Chansey last gen? (Rhetorical, but the answer is yes) Man, all that pent up aggression of fighting a Pokemon you couldn't break is now answered with this along with the existence of Alolan Golem and Tapu Koko, haha. Admittedly, Xurkitree does have a middling speed tier and rather frail defenses at 83/71/71, making it susceptible to common offensive threats and would find stiff competition against other scarfed Pokemon. Also digging the pun Xurkitree -> Circuitry.

Further into Ultra Beasts, I'm a little curious about their ability, Beast Boost. The description says it gives a +1 raise to the highest stat. People have interpreted this in three different ways: highest base stat, highest raw stat, and most invested stat. Personally, I lie with the 'highest raw' speculation, but what I'm trying to get at is.. What if more than one stat qualifies for the highest? With Ultra Beasts like Kartana, the highest stat is obvious, but with Pheromosa that's not the case! If you were to make both her offensive stats the same, would that mean Beast Boost would give a +1 raise to her offenses with each KO? Making her EVEN more potent as a threat, hehe.

BUT WAIT, that's not the worst example! Celesteela, the most balanced Ultra Beast and is probably looked down at most because of it (except maybe Guzzlord), now becomes a POTENT threat with Beast Boost! If Beast Boost functions by highest raw stat, making Celesteela's Atk/Def/SpA/SpD stats (or skip out on either Atk or SpA) match with each other won't be too hard, and after a kill, it will essentially be an offensive threat with more than enough bulk to brush off attacks. Did I forget to mention it has Autotomize and a diverse movepool? Hahaha, yeah, I'm not doing a very good job at making Ultra Beasts sound healthy, but I'm looking forward to playing with them very much so. Sorry if the nuances of Beast Boost have already been revealed and is actually like "it picks a random stat between the highest stats." Would be a little disappointing if so, but more balanced.

But on another note, rip Tapu Lele. Scp and the council's decision is the right one to ban it since it pushes Psychic to ridiculous limits, but I wanted to laugh at Scizor spamming BPunch with my Fairy team.. At least we still have Tapu Fini! For some time, anyway. I have a feeling the community might turn against all of Fairy's new toys. >.>
 
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scpinion

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If we're talking about Beast Boost, I've read the actual description is "most proficient". If that's the case I could easily see it corresponding to EVs (else why wouldn't you just use "highest"), which would enable these slower UBs get boosts to their speed—a scary thought w/ some of the power they're packing. I really hope it doesn't enable them to boost multiple stats w/ a single KO.

edit: I did a bit more digging after posting this. This comes from the research thread over in OI. "Beast Boost boosts the Pokemon's highest Raw stat by +1 and ignores any modifiers to that stat from status, items, or moves."
 

Acast

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Edit: turns out it is Topu, not topo :/
I'm gonna channel my inner Bondie and correct you again. It's actually Tapu :x

And yeah I agree with pretty much everything you said. Most of that stuff will probably end up banned, but the only thing I'm 100% sure needs to go is Tapu Lele. I see no reason why it should stay in the meta more than a week. It's the very definition of broken lmao

Edit: I forgot about Pheromosa until I read the post below mine. Yeah that absolutely is getting the boot too.
 
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I think Pheromosa should definitely be one of the first on the suspect list... You are either forced to run a ghost or poison mon to tank a hit and kill, or priority to strike first. However, the three things that push this over the edge are:

1. U-turn. Yes, if you though Genesect was bad, here's something that doesn't care what it downloads, and can outspeed almost every unboosted pokemon without an item.
2. Rapid Spin. This in and of itself isn't too bothersome, but with crazy attack stats and bug/fighting/ice coverage it beats almost every relevant SR setter in the metagame which can be game-breaking for Bug.
3. Beast Boost. With only a minimal investment in speed, you can still ensure that speed can still be the highest stat and boosted after a single kill. Or you can run Quiver Dance, ignore speed completely so that Special Attack is boosted by ability, and get off one QD to basically be Volcarona on steroids.
 
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Eien

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I guess I'll totally copy scp and talk about what's been on my mind. Here's a somewhat ordered list of things I'll be paying the most careful attention to going into the first few weeks of the next generation.
  1. Tapus
    • Tapu Lele. Perhaps to no one's surprise, Tapu Lele tops the list. There's nothing more I need to say that others haven't. It's just too good.
    • Tapu Koko. Tapu Koko absolutely deserves to sit beside it though. I don't believe it's possible to fairly judge Psychic- and Electric-types as long as these two are in the metagame. A bonus of 50% damage to all Electric-types is an absurdly good buff. Combined with the power of the Electric team's VoltTurn core, (Tapu Koko gets U-turn for a guaranteed pivot too) Tapu Koko is just going to make every Electric-type look better than it is and banning it ASAP will level the field. I mean come on:
      • Also: 252 Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Electric Terrain: 348-411 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO (it gets Roost too)
    • Will Terrain Extender be balanced with these two offenders out of the way? Well...
    • The other two. I think they'll just be too good when they're the only two Terrain setters running around. Don't think Grassy Terrain is good? Just wait until I talk about Kartana. Misty Terrain? Choice Specs Latios's Draco Meteor can't 2HKO a Quagsire and a Choice Band Kyurem-B might as well not even try.
    • So, Tapu Lele and Tapu Koko gone week 1. Tapu whatever the other two should be gone by week 3 or 4 at the latest.
  2. UBeasts - Some can wait, others can't.
    • Pheromosa. Yeah this is just not ok. 137 / 137 / 151 offensive stats. HJK + U-turn with Poison Jab coverage physically; Quiver Dance + Bug Buzz + Focus Blast + Ice Beam specially. Get this outta here.
    • Kartana. 181 Attack and 109 Speed? What could possibly go wrong?? "Luckily" its STAB moves aren't that goo- huh? It gets Swords Dance? +2 Leaf Blade OHKOes Zapdos and Porygon2 on Grassy Terrain? Even without Grassy Terrain, Chansey's 252 Def / SpD spread gets OHKOed 100% of the time. Yeah, let's not.
    • Xurkitree. ArkenCiel said a lot of smart things about this Pokemon. Everyone's been focused on its use of Tail Glow, and I agree with him that its bulk and Speed might be holding it back a bit. Let me just add a few calcs which shows why Tapu Koko needs to leave if we are going to be fair to the other Electric-types. This Pokemon can only be judged fairly if Tapu Koko is banned:
      • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Xurkitree Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Electric Terrain: 289-342 (41 - 48.5%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (s/o Alolan Golem)
      • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Xurkitree Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 148+ SpD Zapdos in Electric Terrain: 382-451 (99.4 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
      • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Xurkitree Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur in Electric Terrain: 192-227 (52.8 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  3. Z-Moves - I don't even want to deal with these, but I guess we have to be fair. I'm not ready for the fun of Water Z-ring Manaphy, Celebrate Gyarados, Celebrate Azumarill, Mew's special Z-move (Not Psychic Terrain again!), and many of the other ridiculous moves. Here's how I see it: it's completely unpredictable. There are no limits other than having only one per team. Everything else is up in the air and I just think that's uncompetitive. I'll give it a "fair" chance, but I'm already on board to see them gone.
  4. Marshadow - I heard this won't be released immediately, but either way just look at it. Ghost / Fighting typing, which is perfect STAB coverage. It has 125 Attack and 125 Speed with Close Combat, Spectral Thief (This pierces Substitute too), all three Elemental Punches (Notably Ice), STAB Technician Shadow Sneak and Technician Pursuit. I don't think so.
  5. Weather
    • I have 0 doubt Damp Rock is one of the first to leave. With Pelipper buffs and Mega Swampert buffs, there's just no way. This isn't staying.
    • Smooth Rock is very strong too, but I'm not convinced it'll be banned as early as some of the others on the list. It sort of pulled weather down to #4 on this list.
  6. Mega Diancie - This monster just transcended. With Diamond Storm going up to +2 Defense 50% of the time, the ability to not run Protect, and 350 Speed even with Hidden Power Fire, I just don't see it. It might not be in the first few waves and might survive to the suspect phase, but I have almost no confidence that this stays in Monotype.
  7. Toxapex - Can some types even KO this? We'll have to see but I'm looking at its stats and its access to Recover...
  8. Darkrai (And most of the other Pokemon we unbanned. Some of which should be much, much higher [looking at you, Aegislash], but I'm just putting them all in the same place)
    • I voted to unban Darkrai, but I also think it's got the potential to just be too good. A lot of people are thinking about Nasty Plot, but I'm also looking at Choice Specs, which always OHKOes Keldeo with Psychic / Thunderbolt. I'm excited to see how it evolves and how the metagame adapts to it. Does it need to get banned? Who knows, but I don't think it's as high priority as many other problems.
    • There are exceptions like Mega Sableye, but on the whole, I expect almost everything to be rebanned sooner or later.
This is 0% final and 100% tentative. I'd love community input on my thoughts. Am I overrating something? Underrating something? Let me know! Building the best SuMo possible is a community effort, after all.
 
I'd say Kartana and the other UBs deserve at least a chance (even if only for a week); Kartana in particular sounds dangerous on paper (as I'm sure Kyu-B did) but its non-existant special bulk forces it to kill or be killed; getting a SD off will not be easy. If any physical mon is that paranoid about Kartana setting up on them, they can run HP fire as a failsafe. Take a look:

-0 SpA Golem Hidden Power Fire vs. 6 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 260-308 (100 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-0- SpA Porygon2 Hidden Power Fire vs. 6 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 388-460 (149.2 - 176.9%) - guaranteed OHKO
-0- SpA Electivire Hidden Power Fire vs. 6 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 360-424 (138.4 - 163%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-0 SpA Charmander (Ember) vs. 6 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 276-328 (106.1 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

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That's not to say that there are no pokemon it can nab a +2 on (and its ability will certainly help in this regard), but i think it's not going to be a given that it will have a +2 when doing calcs...


-- Regarding Toxapex, yes it is bulky but it will have a hard time damaging anything that isn't afflicted with poison with 63/53/35 offensive stats. Yes getting scalded / toxic'd will be annoying, but no more so than Ferrothorn is now. Also, being weak to ground/electric is much more exploitable than fire/fighting, given the wide distribution of EQ and Tbolt...
 
looking forward to grass getting a big boost this gen, with tapu fini obliterating anything in its way, and a bunch of new decent options including tsarena which gives grass a reliable spinner.

for obvious reasons, bug will be getting a big buff this gen too with a lot more mons to play around with and the buffed leech life.
 
Hi Everyone!

I caved and registered to take part in this thread. This will be the first time I will be on showdown for the introduction of a new generation and I am really excited to give it a try. First off, big shout out to all the people that run and participate in the monotype room. It's been a blast playing and learning this tier. Most of you probably already know that I stick to electric types almost exclusively, so I am going to focus on that here.

So there are seven new electric pokemon to be released in Sun & Moon, which I believe has to be the most in a generation by a fair amount. I honestly think each at least has a shot of being useful in one manner or another, and even if that ends up untrue, I am at least going to them some playtime when this gets released.

1. Vikavolt: What can be said that hasn't been brought up already? It's so maddeningly slow. I am having a hard time finding justification for its use. Positives: Massive SpA, fairly good coverage for electric with energy ball and bug buzz. Another levitate user.
Negatives: Slow, weak to stealth rock, slow, not that bulky, slow. Even if you use an agility set, it's not outspeeding much. It's like a wierd combination of Mega Fabio and Galvantula, but Galvantula brings speed/webs/compoundeyes thunder and Fabio bring massive bulk/dragon stab to go with the massive SpA. I just don't really see a slot for it.

2. Oricorio: Ayyyy, a flying/electric type that gets Hurricane finally! Although it's base stat total isn't that high (476), it has 93 speed and 98 Special Attack, good but not great. The dancer ability is intriguing for possibly countering dragon and quiver dancers to get free boosts. The movepool is shallow but it basically gets Tbolt without the 10% chance to para, hurricane, and lots of neat moves like calm mind/roost/taunt. Plus who knows, maybe a Z-mirrormove or another Z-status move might be a cool option. I'll admit I don't know much about Z-moves yet. I think this guy/gal has some potential to be useful, but I am not sure it will hold up in monotype. I really like it, and who knows, maybe I will be able to use it in monotype PU next gen!

3. Togedemaru: Obvious Pika Clone, and they are normally worthless. Now I am not saying this guy is great, with a 435 BST, but he is interesting. Steel/elec with 96 speed and 98 attack are good and I really like his signature move, Zing Zap, which is electric physical 80bp with a chance to flinch, basically Iron Head (which he doesn't get somehow...). He has Iron Barbs as an ability option but 65/63/73 defenses aren't going to be enough to use that. So Sturdy will likely be it. Something like Sturdy/Leftovers with defensive investments and moves like Spiky Shield/Nuzzle/Zing Zap/Fell Stinger would be cool for paraflinching and getting an attack buff. It also has Wish, Encore, UTurn, and a few other utility moves. I'm probably trying too hard here, but I like him. Again, maybe I can use him on Monotype PU.

4. Alolan Raichu: Now we are getting serious. Obviously we have to strongly consider using this guy with Surge Surfer doubling speed in electric terrain. With a modest nature, it hits 309 SpA and 319 speed x2, which outspeeds any relevant scarf users in this meta. Throw in a life orb on top of the eletric terrain boosting power of Tbolts/Vswitch, and you are looking at good chunks of damage. STAB psychic/psyhock is going to be very useful for getting past something like Mega-Venusaur, which is a huge barrier to current electric teams. Throw in Grass knot/Focus Blast for coverage, and I think it has to have HP Ice for grounds/dragons. I have seen some people post about Nasty Plot a good option, and that could be very interesting, especially if you have a few turns of electric terrain remaining. Nasty plot on the switch and then bam, you are gonna hit like a truck no matter who the target is.

5. Alolan Golem: I love seeing new type combos when new games are released. Rock/Electric is unique. I am not sure if it really helps defensively for the most part, as it really adds more weaknesses and quad weak to ground. But I suppose grass/fight is somewhat offset by zapdos, water by Rotom, and steel is neutral. But surely Golem has a lot going for it with the new Galvanize ability making normal moves to be Electric and boosting them by 1.2X. On top of that, we now have a second Stealth Rock setter for the type (Not that I don't love my stunfisk dearly!). Rock stab isn't going to help too much since flying is already weak to electric, but could help a bit against bugs/ice and perhaps fire. Perhaps the best part though is the fact that his 120 attack stat and typing will help in the matchup against Normal teams. Chansey shuts down most electric teams currently, and galvanized explosions will be fun to have on hand. This could be quite risky, though, and Return could be a good option. I'm not sure exactly what sets will be most effective on this guy, but I can't wait to give it a shot. It might be close to "must use" next gen.

6. Xurkitree: A pure electric type Ultra Beast with 173 special attack but only 83 speed. This guy gets tail glow! Just insane special. It seems like early thoughts are either a choice scarf with tbolt/eball/dgleam/and hidden power or volt switch, and rely on the beast boost to +1 your SpA, or some kind of tail glow set. Either one should be fun! This guy could be seeing a ban sometime in the future, but we will see. He has me looking up electric Baton passers with agility...did you know zapdos can baton pass agility? lol. Not that there is room for that on his sets between defog/roost. That leaves only Jolteon and Emolga! So I guess that is out of the question.

7. Tapu Koko: The one and only! I have been looking forward to this guy the most; so much so in fact that I wanted to cry when I found out this fast (130 speed!) attacker (115 attack!) with elec/fairy typing...did NOT get Play Rough! NO physical fairy stab! I don't know what it is with GameFreak and denying Electric type their rightful moves (No Dazzling Gleam/moonblast for Dedenne, no Hurricane/air slash for Zapdos or Thundurus). But all is not lost here, with the autosetting of Electric terrain, and he somehow gets more Flying coverage than Zap of Thundy, having Acrobatics and Brave Bird, which are very useful for tough grass, bug and fighting matchups. It also has roost/taunt/uturn. I also wish it got thunder punch so I didn't have to run the terrible Wild Charge. I'd take a 75 bp attack with 10% chance to para, boosted in terrain, than this 90bp recoil inducing garbage attack, but oh well. A mixed set might have to be run to include special fairy stab. It seems like there are many options here for Item too. Could run terrain extender, life orb, maybe even a consumable terrain seed or something so acrobatics can be run instead of brave bird. I am just thrilled to have a usable fairy to help even the scales in Dragon matchups. Can't wait to use this guy! I don't think he will be ban worthy, but I just hope that doesn't happen.

Lemme know what you guys think!
 
Hi Everyone!

I caved and registered to take part in this thread. This will be the first time I will be on showdown for the introduction of a new generation and I am really excited to give it a try. First off, big shout out to all the people that run and participate in the monotype room. It's been a blast playing and learning this tier. Most of you probably already know that I stick to electric types almost exclusively, so I am going to focus on that here.

So there are seven new electric pokemon to be released in Sun & Moon, which I believe has to be the most in a generation by a fair amount. I honestly think each at least has a shot of being useful in one manner or another, and even if that ends up untrue, I am at least going to them some playtime when this gets released.

1. Vikavolt: What can be said that hasn't been brought up already? It's so maddeningly slow. I am having a hard time finding justification for its use. Positives: Massive SpA, fairly good coverage for electric with energy ball and bug buzz. Another levitate user.
Negatives: Slow, weak to stealth rock, slow, not that bulky, slow. Even if you use an agility set, it's not outspeeding much. It's like a wierd combination of Mega Fabio and Galvantula, but Galvantula brings speed/webs/compoundeyes thunder and Fabio bring massive bulk/dragon stab to go with the massive SpA. I just don't really see a slot for it.

2. Oricorio: Ayyyy, a flying/electric type that gets Hurricane finally! Although it's base stat total isn't that high (476), it has 93 speed and 98 Special Attack, good but not great. The dancer ability is intriguing for possibly countering dragon and quiver dancers to get free boosts. The movepool is shallow but it basically gets Tbolt without the 10% chance to para, hurricane, and lots of neat moves like calm mind/roost/taunt. Plus who knows, maybe a Z-mirrormove or another Z-status move might be a cool option. I'll admit I don't know much about Z-moves yet. I think this guy/gal has some potential to be useful, but I am not sure it will hold up in monotype. I really like it, and who knows, maybe I will be able to use it in monotype PU next gen!

3. Togedemaru: Obvious Pika Clone, and they are normally worthless. Now I am not saying this guy is great, with a 435 BST, but he is interesting. Steel/elec with 96 speed and 98 attack are good and I really like his signature move, Zing Zap, which is electric physical 80bp with a chance to flinch, basically Iron Head (which he doesn't get somehow...). He has Iron Barbs as an ability option but 65/63/73 defenses aren't going to be enough to use that. So Sturdy will likely be it. Something like Sturdy/Leftovers with defensive investments and moves like Spiky Shield/Nuzzle/Zing Zap/Fell Stinger would be cool for paraflinching and getting an attack buff. It also has Wish, Encore, UTurn, and a few other utility moves. I'm probably trying too hard here, but I like him. Again, maybe I can use him on Monotype PU.

4. Alolan Raichu: Now we are getting serious. Obviously we have to strongly consider using this guy with Surge Surfer doubling speed in electric terrain. With a modest nature, it hits 309 SpA and 319 speed x2, which outspeeds any relevant scarf users in this meta. Throw in a life orb on top of the eletric terrain boosting power of Tbolts/Vswitch, and you are looking at good chunks of damage. STAB psychic/psyhock is going to be very useful for getting past something like Mega-Venusaur, which is a huge barrier to current electric teams. Throw in Grass knot/Focus Blast for coverage, and I think it has to have HP Ice for grounds/dragons. I have seen some people post about Nasty Plot a good option, and that could be very interesting, especially if you have a few turns of electric terrain remaining. Nasty plot on the switch and then bam, you are gonna hit like a truck no matter who the target is.

5. Alolan Golem: I love seeing new type combos when new games are released. Rock/Electric is unique. I am not sure if it really helps defensively for the most part, as it really adds more weaknesses and quad weak to ground. But I suppose grass/fight is somewhat offset by zapdos, water by Rotom, and steel is neutral. But surely Golem has a lot going for it with the new Galvanize ability making normal moves to be Electric and boosting them by 1.2X. On top of that, we now have a second Stealth Rock setter for the type (Not that I don't love my stunfisk dearly!). Rock stab isn't going to help too much since flying is already weak to electric, but could help a bit against bugs/ice and perhaps fire. Perhaps the best part though is the fact that his 120 attack stat and typing will help in the matchup against Normal teams. Chansey shuts down most electric teams currently, and galvanized explosions will be fun to have on hand. This could be quite risky, though, and Return could be a good option. I'm not sure exactly what sets will be most effective on this guy, but I can't wait to give it a shot. It might be close to "must use" next gen.

6. Xurkitree: A pure electric type Ultra Beast with 173 special attack but only 83 speed. This guy gets tail glow! Just insane special. It seems like early thoughts are either a choice scarf with tbolt/eball/dgleam/and hidden power or volt switch, and rely on the beast boost to +1 your SpA, or some kind of tail glow set. Either one should be fun! This guy could be seeing a ban sometime in the future, but we will see. He has me looking up electric Baton passers with agility...did you know zapdos can baton pass agility? lol. Not that there is room for that on his sets between defog/roost. That leaves only Jolteon and Emolga! So I guess that is out of the question.

7. Tapu Koko: The one and only! I have been looking forward to this guy the most; so much so in fact that I wanted to cry when I found out this fast (130 speed!) attacker (115 attack!) with elec/fairy typing...did NOT get Play Rough! NO physical fairy stab! I don't know what it is with GameFreak and denying Electric type their rightful moves (No Dazzling Gleam/moonblast for Dedenne, no Hurricane/air slash for Zapdos or Thundurus). But all is not lost here, with the autosetting of Electric terrain, and he somehow gets more Flying coverage than Zap of Thundy, having Acrobatics and Brave Bird, which are very useful for tough grass, bug and fighting matchups. It also has roost/taunt/uturn. I also wish it got thunder punch so I didn't have to run the terrible Wild Charge. I'd take a 75 bp attack with 10% chance to para, boosted in terrain, than this 90bp recoil inducing garbage attack, but oh well. A mixed set might have to be run to include special fairy stab. It seems like there are many options here for Item too. Could run terrain extender, life orb, maybe even a consumable terrain seed or something so acrobatics can be run instead of brave bird. I am just thrilled to have a usable fairy to help even the scales in Dragon matchups. Can't wait to use this guy! I don't think he will be ban worthy, but I just hope that doesn't happen.

Lemme know what you guys think!
wow what a breakdown. i think the biggest buff to electric though is two very viable physical attackers in alolan golan and tapu koko. electric has been low-tier for a long time due to very little presence and the introduction of these two (plus golem as a viable rocker) gives it a ton more viability.
 
I wasn't going to reply to this since the game comes out in a few days, but hey, let's give it a shot. The only thing I wanted to say was that I don't think electric terrain (I'm not going to comment about the other terrains/tapus), with tapu koko, will be inherently OP like some people are saying. Yes, you can throw out calcs of tapu koko breaking walls such as chansey, but that's exactly what electric type needs. It currently has no "effective" physical attacking wall breaker, leaving it very vulnerable to common special defensive mons. In my eyes, this is one of the major contributing factors to why electric is a lower-tiered type, and why tapu koko shouldn't be a "quick ban".

Additionally, let's look at electric terrain itself. 50% boost to electric type attacks, only affects grounded mons. This means any pokemon with levitate, or flying type, won't receive the bonus. Out of the majority of electric mons commonly found on teams, half of them won't even receive the terrain boost. This means the zapdos/rotom core won't receive a boost (being walls, that's fine), but other common attackers such as thundurus(-t) and eelektross also won't be receiving any benefits from the terrain. However, other common electric mons such as both megas, magnezone, raikou, tapu koko, and alola-raichu will reap the benefits. Even further on top of this, the only pokemon with synergy from its ability is alola-raichu. Lastly, it prevents sleep which is nice for the annoying breloom spore tactics, the odd smeargle, and it also prevents rest stall, but nothing major to write home about. Just for reference sake as well, electric type hits 2 types super-effectively, 3 types not-very-effectively, 1 immunity, and the remaining 12 types neutrally.

If we compare this to other similar effects in the game, i.e. rain, I don't see why this is considered ban worthy, while those are not. Rain gives a 50% boost to water moves, reduces the damage of fire moves by 50%, and has synergy with swift swim and hydration (and rain dish/dry skin, lel). Water types also have the luxury of pokemon options when building a team, giving them access to effective walls and wall-breakers (both physical AND special), who have good type coverage attacks. For comparison's sake, water type hits 3 types super-effectively, 3 types not-very-effectively, and 12 types neutrally (overall +2 over electric being 1 more super-effectiveness and no immunities). The major difference here is the activator mon of the weather effect. Tapu koko is a great mon all around, albeit has mediocre bulk, but great speed and attack/spa. Politoed on the other hand is almost a "wasted slot", being that it's there to set rain, but doesn't that contribute much to the team otherwise. This is easily balanced by the wide array of great mons that water type has access to. Kingdra, m-swampert, azumarill, manaphy, keldeo, m-sharpedo, the list goes on. That being said, when tapu koko is released, it will become a staple on electric teams. There's no reason not to add it, and you don't have to build a team around it for it to work. But, if you are building a team with politoed, you're building a team for rain. Basically what I'm trying to say is, we already have weather meta in the game, and you don't see people quick-banning drizzle or drought or sandstorm (or snow warning, lel). Obviously electric terrain on tapu koko will be strong, but I don't think it will be as strong as most people say it will. Sure, it will likely boost electric type usage, but I highly doubt it'll become top tier and unhealthy to the meta.

There's probably more that I could say about type coverage, options of strong/useful stab moves, type coverage for electric mons, etc, but it's late.

Edit: I don't think the addition to these terrains is comparable to weather wars in gen5. Back then, weather was permanent, meaning there was no way around it unless you had a weather user yourself. In ORAS, weather was no longer permanent, lasting only 5 turns (with the rocks being banned), and it isn't a weather-centric meta. These terrains are also only lasting 5 turns, not permanent. That being said, there's no reason for these terrains to be inherently stronger than the current weather meta (aside from specific type-boosting advantages such as psychic terrain).
 
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Misty Terrain? Choice Specs Latios's Draco Meteor can't 2HKO a Quagsire and a Choice Band Kyurem-B might as well not even try.
I'm actually not sure that's a problem for dragon.

Quagsire cannot burn you with scald or poison you with toxic. You're immune to earthquake, and scald damage does this to you:

0 SpA Quagsire Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 28-33 (9.3 - 11%) -- possibly the worst move ever.

You can 3HKO it with choice band psyshock, and when it tries to stall with recover it just runs the terrain out. Plus, if it becomes a big issue you can always carry HP grass and do this (although in most cases I think you'll just want to stall the terrain out and keep your other coverage).

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 556-656 (141.1 - 166.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I'm actually really interested in misty terrain, because it seems to come with real trade offs for both water and fairy. Misty terrain removes scald burns for water, and only protects them from dragon moves which are not waters biggest threat, plus the lack of status in general would really constrain water stall. And reducing dragon damage does absolutely nothing for fairy monotype, so all you get is protection from status at the expense of not being able to use status itself. If Klefki and Clefable are still important in SuMo Monotype this is a real compromise (Azumaril would appreciate this, but it requires using two fairy/water on the same team)

Since it doesn't power up any moves at all, and benefits the opponents too I'm definitely not ready to write it off as broken. Very interested to see how this plays out

Edit: Obviously this was a terrible example because Latios doesn't benefit from misty terrain thanks to levitate. Dragon seems short on grounded mons, but a similar situation would probably play out if you have the right moves on one of them. You can also waste turns with dragon tail, since damage isn't really the point of it, and it seems any grass coverage can take care of Quagsire at least. (I'm not sure familiar with the dragon v water matchup since I always play fairy, so maybe someone else can come up with a better example.)

Still I'm not sure if these two will be run together since eliminating scald burns & other status on a defensive water team doesn't make a whole lot of sense vs most types.
 
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Only grounded Pokémon get terrain benefits...
Oh right, of course ... Latios was a really bad example. I was gonna say that a similar situation should play out with a different, grounded mon, but I just realized how many dragons have levitate or are flying type. It's weird for that to actually be a disadvantage ... Garchomp v Quagsire EQ war? Or just use any grass coverage if you have it.

Still, I'd be surprised if Quagsire is paired with misty terrain often because against any other type (but flying) losing status is not gonna help Quagsire. Plus it seems pretty disruptive to water defense/stall in general which relies on scald burns and status to get the job done.
 
Hello everybody! As a fanatic of poison types I'd like to talk a little bit about new Poison type pokemon, now only got time to talk about 1 which is the one I liked the most and it is Toxapex!

Toxapex is one of the best additions to Poison monotypes and a good one for Water in my opinion. It has got 2 incredible abilities as in Regenerator and Merciless (This pokemon always crits opposing foe as long as the foe is poisoned). However, despite the power this pokemon may have with Merciless ability, I can see regenerator being more useful overall. What makes this a pokemon to fear is, its bulk paired up with incredible recovery options and its typing. Toxapex provides a more consistent answer for many pokemon that Poison monotype teams used to struggle with, mostly Fire and Ice-Type Pokemon, such as Mega Charizard-Y and Cloyster.
I tried to make a preliminary set so we can see how it could do in the meta:

Toxapex @ Black Sludge / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 84 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Recover
- Toxic / Toxic Spikes / Baneful Bunker
- Haze / Toxic Spikes​

This set is rather passive as Toxapex's terrible offensive presence force it to rely on status to deal damage, however, thanks to Haze you can keep set-up users in check so this pokemon doesn't become a set-up fodder. The EVs distribuition allows it to avoid the 2HKO by some physical moves and some special ones. However, Evs are customizable depending on the pokemon it counters/checks (it can be more physically bulky or more specially bulky).

Calcs:
  • +2 252 Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Toxapex: 125-150 (41.1 - 49.3%) -- approx. 10.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
  • 252 Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Toxapex: 65-80 (21.3 - 26.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
  • 252 Atk Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Toxapex: 130-154 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- 42.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
  • 252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Toxapex in Sun: 113-133 (37.1 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
  • 252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Toxapex: 126-148 (41.4 - 48.6%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
  • +1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Toxapex: 126-148 (41.4 - 48.6%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
  • 252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Toxapex: 97-115 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 93.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
  • +2 252+ Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Toxapex: 145-171 (47.6 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

  • 252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Toxapex in Sun: 108-128 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
  • 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Toxapex: 127-151 (41.7 - 49.6%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
  • 180 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Toxapex: 136-161 (44.7 - 52.9%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Toxapex: 93-109 (30.5 - 35.8%) -- 42.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
  • +1 252 SpA Volcarona Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Toxapex: 140-166 (46 - 54.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
  • 252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Toxapex: 106-125 (34.8 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery


Resuming, I'm looking forward to see this thing a lot, even replacing tentacruel in a lot of teams, maybe in Stall Water as it is a great utility counter Pokemon and uhm, what else can I say? its design is sick as well.

Any thoughts?

PS: While everybody has been focusing their sight on kartana, Tapu Bulu was somewhat forgotten. Did anyone realize the strength of that thing? A choice band set OHKOs chansey 100% of the time and OHKOs/2HKOs most pokemon that even resist Wood Hammer. That thing is a beast.
 
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Acast

Classy af
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
my thoughts:
WHY IS MKANGA NOT UNBANNED. MANS HAS BEEN NERFED AS WELL..., ZZZZ PLEASE NORMAL NEEDS SOMETHING
First, we'd all appreciate it if you would present your thoughts in a less shitposty format.

Second, the council has discussed Mega Kangaskhan and most of us agreed that strategies such as Seismic Toss were still too uncompetitive to allow in the metagame. Not to mention Power Up Punch is still a Swords Dance with some added damage tacked on and Sucker Punch is still the second most powerful priority in the game and has outstanding type coverage with Kang's other moves. Mega Kangaskhan was nerfed, but it's not a big enough nerf in our eyes. Once the metagame settles down after the initial hype, we may bring it up to potentially allow back in the metagame. For now, it's staying banned.
 
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PS: While everybody has been focusing their sight on kartana, Tapu Bulu was somewhat forgotten. Did anyone realize the strength of that thing? A choice band set OHKOs chansey 100% of the time and OHKOs/2HKOs most pokemon that even resist Wood Hammer. That thing is a beast.
While it certainly does look like it has a power level over 9000 (and gets Swords Dance on top of it), the problem is more that it is slow @ base 75 speed with bulk that is average at best (70/115/95). Couple this with a crummy defensive typing (weak to fire/ice/flying/steel with a double weakness to poison) and Tapu Bulu doesn't by itself seem broken.

Whether or not the auto-terrain is broken on grass teams remains to be seen...
 

Entei

It was a fine fine time.
is a Tiering Contributor
I'd say Kartana and the other UBs deserve at least a chance (even if only for a week); Kartana in particular sounds dangerous on paper (as I'm sure Kyu-B did) but its non-existant special bulk forces it to kill or be killed; getting a SD off will not be easy. If any physical mon is that paranoid about Kartana setting up on them, they can run HP fire as a failsafe. Take a look:

-0 SpA Golem Hidden Power Fire vs. 6 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 260-308 (100 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-0- SpA Porygon2 Hidden Power Fire vs. 6 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 388-460 (149.2 - 176.9%) - guaranteed OHKO
-0- SpA Electivire Hidden Power Fire vs. 6 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 360-424 (138.4 - 163%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-0 SpA Charmander (Ember) vs. 6 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 276-328 (106.1 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

View attachment 73490
At this point, I don't know if youre joking or not anymore, but just in-case I'll have to let you know that a Charmander, nor HP Fire Golem or HP Fire Electivire have a place in this meta.
Posting absurd and irrelevant calcs does not make you funny/educated nor whatever it is you're trying to come as. Please stop posting stuff like that, as you are degrading this thread's content.
 
At this point, I don't know if youre joking or not anymore, but just in-case I'll have to let you know that a Charmander, nor HP Fire Golem or HP Fire Electivire have a place in this meta.
Posting absurd and irrelevant calcs does not make you funny/educated nor whatever it is you're trying to come as. Please stop posting stuff like that, as you are degrading this thread's content.
Since you seem to have missed my point, it was that its bulk is plain bad, to the point where even walls and dedicated physical attackers are not safe switch ins for kartana if it poses a big enough problem.

I will reiterate that the likes of charmander and HP fire golem are obviously non-existent in the meta, but if it cannot Switch into either of these with no special investment, It'll be relegated to switching in on the likes of Shuckle or coming in after a sac. It's not impossible to outspeed and OHKO for any type, and while it may prove to be broken in the end, it deserves a fair chance like kyu-b was given in gen5.
 
While it certainly does look like it has a power level over 9000 (and gets Swords Dance on top of it), the problem is more that it is slow @ base 75 speed with bulk that is average at best (70/115/95). Couple this with a crummy defensive typing (weak to fire/ice/flying/steel with a double weakness to poison) and Tapu Bulu doesn't by itself seem broken.

Whether or not the auto-terrain is broken on grass teams remains to be seen...
I wasn't trying to point out whether it's broken or not. My point is that this pokemon will be a very nice wallbreaker (especially on grass), being able to dismantle defensive cores that are troublesome for its teammates. Getting rid of Zapdos, Mandibuzz, Mega Sableye, Chansey and couple more is huge for pokemon such as Breloom and Serperior, for example.
 
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