-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Project Mono-Type: Water
- Thread starter Run
- Start date
You're probably going to do just as well Tricking Specs or Scarf onto Ferrothorn. It's a much more useful item for Starmie to have if they don't run Ferrothorn, and a Ferrothorn locked into any move can be dealt with (if it locks into Spikes, you can set up with Gyarados or whatever, if it locks into T Wave a Hydration user/Ground type comes in for free, and its attacking moves are all low PP and can be played around).
poliwrath looked like the best ferrothorn counter from the start to me(until keldeo is out who will greatly strengthen this team), being the only water pokemon to hit it with a SE stab attack. simply hitting 2 brick breaks while ferrothorn power whips you would be enough to cripple it. sub can block leech seed. an obscure method would be hp:fire ludicolo/tentacruel.
keldeo would be able to easily deal with it using stab focus blast. alas..
keldeo would be able to easily deal with it using stab focus blast. alas..
***Second Post Updated***
Sorry guys. I don't have internet on the weekends, and I am away on business this week, so I am sitting in my hotel room after a long day trying to catch up. I am really encouraged with how well this thread is going.
Balanced it is.
I'm seeing almost everyone agreeing on these pokes:
Politoed
Gyarados
Tentacruel
water/ground (lets focus some discussion here!)
other notables to consider:
Ludicolo
Starmie
Jelicent
Vaporeon
Empoleon
Have a few mentions for gimmicky workarounds involving:
Sap Sipper Azumarill
Quilfish
Poliwrath
Major threats to consider:
Ferrothorn
Toxicroak
Celebi
Tornadus
I would like to focus on nailing down the few we all agree on. Lets start with Politoed, Gyarados, and Tentacruel. Work out some sets so we have something to build our final additions to mesh with. Also, Lets compare Swampert, Gastrodon, and Quagsire and attempt to make a final verdict on one of them.
Other discussion is obviously welcome, but I would like to see some serious progress on what I have mentioned in the next couple days. Thank you all for being so active. Get out there and keep testing!
Sorry guys. I don't have internet on the weekends, and I am away on business this week, so I am sitting in my hotel room after a long day trying to catch up. I am really encouraged with how well this thread is going.
Balanced it is.
I'm seeing almost everyone agreeing on these pokes:
Politoed
Gyarados
Tentacruel
water/ground (lets focus some discussion here!)
other notables to consider:
Ludicolo
Starmie
Jelicent
Vaporeon
Empoleon
Have a few mentions for gimmicky workarounds involving:
Sap Sipper Azumarill
Quilfish
Poliwrath
Major threats to consider:
Ferrothorn
Toxicroak
Celebi
Tornadus
I would like to focus on nailing down the few we all agree on. Lets start with Politoed, Gyarados, and Tentacruel. Work out some sets so we have something to build our final additions to mesh with. Also, Lets compare Swampert, Gastrodon, and Quagsire and attempt to make a final verdict on one of them.
Other discussion is obviously welcome, but I would like to see some serious progress on what I have mentioned in the next couple days. Thank you all for being so active. Get out there and keep testing!
Swampert:
Pros -
Most offensive presence
Good mixed bulk
Gets Roar
Stealth Rock
Cons -
No reliable recovery
Quagsire:
Pros -
Water immunity OR Unaware
Recover
Cons -
Mediocre stats everywhere other than HP
can't do too much without boosting
Gastrodon:
Pros -
Water Immunity
Can grab free boosts from water-types
Huge special bulk
Reasonable offensive presence
Reliable recovery
Cons -
Still can't do too much damage without a boost or investment
Personally, I'm a huge fan of Gastrodon, since it shuts down non-trickchoice Rotom-W, restricts Choice Politoed and Starmie, and hard walls standard CM Rain Jirachi. Well, all three of them do, in the case of Rachi. You could make a point for Water Absorb Quaggy, but IMO, he's outclassed as a Water Absorber, so he should be using Unaware to stop boosters. Swampert is the only one capable of causing damage without major boosts/investment, and can set up rocks, but the other two, IMO are superior for a defensive role.
@Celebi
Is there any water that learns a solid bug attack and isn't Surskit? Predict Celebi switch in - BLAM - dead/crippled pixie? Sharpedo can dent it with Crunch, Jelli can tag it with Shadow Ball on the switch, and everything's probably packing an Ice attack.
@Toxicroak
It's a bit gimmicky, but Politoed, as well as the not-gimmicky Starmie and Slowbro are all capable users of Psychic attacks, and lure in Toxicroak nicely. The Water/Ground of choice has a supereffective STAB, Gyara needs Bounce or EQ to touch him, but can set up on ones hellbent on Sucker Punching you.
@Sap Sipper Azumarill
Now that I think about it, it's not that great an idea. Sure, immunity to Leech Seed and Power Whip are tempting, but your damage output is flat out terrible, and Ferrothorn is still free to set up hazards, while crippling Azumarill for almost every other threat.
Pros -
Most offensive presence
Good mixed bulk
Gets Roar
Stealth Rock
Cons -
No reliable recovery
Quagsire:
Pros -
Water immunity OR Unaware
Recover
Cons -
Mediocre stats everywhere other than HP
can't do too much without boosting
Gastrodon:
Pros -
Water Immunity
Can grab free boosts from water-types
Huge special bulk
Reasonable offensive presence
Reliable recovery
Cons -
Still can't do too much damage without a boost or investment
Personally, I'm a huge fan of Gastrodon, since it shuts down non-trickchoice Rotom-W, restricts Choice Politoed and Starmie, and hard walls standard CM Rain Jirachi. Well, all three of them do, in the case of Rachi. You could make a point for Water Absorb Quaggy, but IMO, he's outclassed as a Water Absorber, so he should be using Unaware to stop boosters. Swampert is the only one capable of causing damage without major boosts/investment, and can set up rocks, but the other two, IMO are superior for a defensive role.
@Celebi
Is there any water that learns a solid bug attack and isn't Surskit? Predict Celebi switch in - BLAM - dead/crippled pixie? Sharpedo can dent it with Crunch, Jelli can tag it with Shadow Ball on the switch, and everything's probably packing an Ice attack.
@Toxicroak
It's a bit gimmicky, but Politoed, as well as the not-gimmicky Starmie and Slowbro are all capable users of Psychic attacks, and lure in Toxicroak nicely. The Water/Ground of choice has a supereffective STAB, Gyara needs Bounce or EQ to touch him, but can set up on ones hellbent on Sucker Punching you.
@Sap Sipper Azumarill
Now that I think about it, it's not that great an idea. Sure, immunity to Leech Seed and Power Whip are tempting, but your damage output is flat out terrible, and Ferrothorn is still free to set up hazards, while crippling Azumarill for almost every other threat.
Gastrodon's Water immunity isn't very important when your entire team is Water, though. I think my favorite for this team is Swampert, since Stealth Rock and its mixed bulk would be missed the most.
Kabutops gets X-Scissor and Kingdra Signal Beam if you want to OHKO Celebi. Sap Sipper Azu is a really odd case, since it would need to run a support set if it wanted to be very useful but has a small support movepool.
Starmie learns Signal Beam (by Gen 4 move tutor), and with a Life Orb can OHKO 4/0 Celebi; it also has a chance to OHKO 252/0 Celebi (guaranteed after Stealth Rock damage).
Though a lot of these are useless:
Megahorn - Seaking, Samurott
Signal Beam - Dewgong, Lanturn, Octillary, Mantine, Kingdra, Qwilfish, Walrein, Lumineon, Blastoise, Golduck, Slowbro, Cloyster, Starmie, Lapras, Vaporeon, Slowking, Suicune, Gorebyss, Empoleon, Phione
Silver Wind - Lumineon
U-turn - Lumineon, Pelipper, Phione
X-Scissor - Kingler, Kabutops, Crawdaunt, Samurott
Honestly I think it is time we stop theorymoning and go out and test our teams. Of course I have been playing with my own Mono-Water team (Posted a page or 2 back) for a while now so that might just be me. I say that after we hit a certain ranking (1200+ perhaps) we move onto the next typing. Otherwise going through every element will take forever, especially considering that we are starting off with arguably the second or third best type to run Mono with. (Dragon and Steel being 1 and/or 2)
Anyways my team currently wins about 70% of its battles. Struggles mostly with water absorbers (Gastro/Jelli) while Ferrothorn has never been a problem, besides being a nuisance occasionally. Once it is burned (Scald/Will-O-Wisp) it is a peace of cake to kill.
Edit: Seems I missed a couple pages of discussion. Guess that happens when you leave a tab open for a few hours and come back to it.
Anyways my team currently wins about 70% of its battles. Struggles mostly with water absorbers (Gastro/Jelli) while Ferrothorn has never been a problem, besides being a nuisance occasionally. Once it is burned (Scald/Will-O-Wisp) it is a peace of cake to kill.
Edit: Seems I missed a couple pages of discussion. Guess that happens when you leave a tab open for a few hours and come back to it.
I'm going to agree with this; Gastrodon is great but Stealth Rock is going to be such a major boon to this team that it really pushes Swampert into the lead for me, as far as Water/Grounds go.
As far as Bug attacks for Celebi go, you have:
Megahorn: No viable users (maybe Samurott but almost 100% not)
Signal Beam: Lanturn, Starmie and Kingdra are the only standout users. Lanturn has fierce competition from Rotom-W.
X-Scissor: Kingler, Kabutops, Crawdaunt. Scarf Kingler is actually an interesting prospect to me, but Kabutops is a pretty strong competitor. Crawdaunt would be great if it weren't slow and frail.
U-Turn: No viable users (!!)
So, looking at this list, your options are really Kingdra, Kingler, Starmie and Kabutops.
Looking a bit more closely at Kingler...
ScarfCrab (Kingler @ Choice Scarf)
252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Jolly
Hyper Cutter
-Waterfall
-X-Scissor
-Rock Slide
-Superpower
Nets pretty good coverage I guess overall. Jolly puts it at 409 Speed, which lets it outspeed basically anything that's not wearing its own Scarf.
Using Superpower locks you out of using Sheer Force...the trade is a less powerful Rock Slide for a more powerful Fighting attack. Superpower from the set above nets 51-61% on the "Standard" Ferrothorn set on-site, which is a solid 2HKO even with the Attack drop. I chose Waterfall over Crabhammer because Waterfall won't miss, and is only 10 power weaker. X-Scissor is obviously for the time-travelling pixie.
Edit: ninja'd a bit by melvni. :(
WAT!?! you dissin' U-turn Lumineon? that thing iz beast!
(just trying to throw some humor in)
While I personally have always enjoyed Kingler (gen 1 and 2 of course), choice locking it is a bit risky. Surprise factor might be just enough though...
Anyway, Sharpedo is probably the better option to stop Celebi (especially after Lumineon gets banned to Ubers)
-other stuff-
Water/Ground, I'm leaning Quagsire, but by a minimal margin.
and yes I really think to be the most competitive we need
Politoed
Gyarados
Tentacruel
Just started trying out a team of my own, haven't dealt with a toxicroak yet, but if he's trouble, psychic move might just find its way onto Poli.
I also have a strong opinion toward Swampert. With Tentacruel soaking up pretty much all special attacks, Swampert's physical bulk looks much more impressive. Also the standard mix set allows it to survive some special assult if it can score a 1HKO with EQ or IB. SR is obviously welcome. And if we are finding we are having a hard time keeping Swampert up, Wish Passing Vaporeon might be in the mix... but I have always found Swampert to hold up extremely well with only leftovers.
Also Empoleon is not just a good option, it's virtually necessary. Nothing else is swtiching into all of dem Draco Meteors and dealing damage in return. Our team should be Toed, SubDD Gyara, Tentacruel and SpD Empoleon at this stage.
As for the (necessary) water/ground, I'm thinking potentially Quagsire. Empoleon can already SR, and Quagsire has a recovery move and can check most set-up sweepers not named Celebi or Virizion, which our team reall needs with its lack of revenge killers. But yeah, Gastrodon is far less relevant considering how heavily the team resists water, and how much less of a problem it'll have with special attackers generally.
Speaking of revenge killers, the team needs one, especially since some pokes can just get guaranteed kills against mono-water and the best best against them is a revenge kill. I do like Sharpedo, as it can deal with stuff like Celebi and Latios with the right support. Scarf Cloyster is another thing I feel is worth considering; that icicle spear will rip through all the dragons and grass-types the team hates, and with its good coverage most sweepers are hit hard by one of cloysters moves, whilst its defence allows it to deal with priority.
As for the (necessary) water/ground, I'm thinking potentially Quagsire. Empoleon can already SR, and Quagsire has a recovery move and can check most set-up sweepers not named Celebi or Virizion, which our team reall needs with its lack of revenge killers. But yeah, Gastrodon is far less relevant considering how heavily the team resists water, and how much less of a problem it'll have with special attackers generally.
Speaking of revenge killers, the team needs one, especially since some pokes can just get guaranteed kills against mono-water and the best best against them is a revenge kill. I do like Sharpedo, as it can deal with stuff like Celebi and Latios with the right support. Scarf Cloyster is another thing I feel is worth considering; that icicle spear will rip through all the dragons and grass-types the team hates, and with its good coverage most sweepers are hit hard by one of cloysters moves, whilst its defence allows it to deal with priority.
Something that I've found to be a pretty damn good Ferrothorn counter is one on my absolute favourite pokemon of all time: Slowbro.
Depending on the teamplay, this guy can shut down Ferro for most of he game. High Defense and Low speed means less damage from Gyro Balls and Power Whips. Reliable recovery in Slack Off and Regenerator, allowing switch-ins even with hazards up. If not in the rain, Fire Blast can OHKO, and otherwise 2HKO with Modest and 252 SpA (though I don't have my damage calculator nearby, so if someone can check, that would be appreciated.
Alternatively, if in rain Scald hoping for burn,, and Ice Beam for neutral damage. Or if you want to risk it, Focus Miss.
In my normal team, many a Ferro has been fainted by switching into this guy. And with base 110 Defense, I believe he should be considered on teams anyway.
Depending on the teamplay, this guy can shut down Ferro for most of he game. High Defense and Low speed means less damage from Gyro Balls and Power Whips. Reliable recovery in Slack Off and Regenerator, allowing switch-ins even with hazards up. If not in the rain, Fire Blast can OHKO, and otherwise 2HKO with Modest and 252 SpA (though I don't have my damage calculator nearby, so if someone can check, that would be appreciated.
Alternatively, if in rain Scald hoping for burn,, and Ice Beam for neutral damage. Or if you want to risk it, Focus Miss.
In my normal team, many a Ferro has been fainted by switching into this guy. And with base 110 Defense, I believe he should be considered on teams anyway.
With 252 Def investment, I think it reaches 350 Defense. Maybe not taking multiple hits, but since you outspeed Ferro one can 2HKO as long as you aren't switching INTO a PW.
Also, since I've recently wiped my comp, I don't have my teams anymore, and can't remember if it was Modest or + Def. But I have taken a Power Whip before and lived.
Also, not many Ferros run max Attack as far as I know, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
Agreeing with all of this, Empoleon is critical for the teams success. Additionally it gets far more opportunities to set up SR than Swampert does a) making it more utile over the course of a match, b) being the best defensive option the team has in terms of resists, and c) opening up a slot for Quagsire to come in and stop you being wrecked by stat boosters.
IMO, the core five should be Toed, Gyara, Cruel, Emp, Quag and a variable fifth, for example Starmie, Rotom-W, or Suicune. You could even run Lightningrod Seaking as a strong check to Rotom-W, the non-choiced versions of which hurt this team pretty badly.
EDIT: @ above post, with a Modest nature Slowbro will only reach 319 Defense, it hits 350 with a positive nature.
Actually any decent Special Water wall can deal with the dragons. Jellicent isn't 2hko'd by SpecsLatios thanks to recover and can heal up to take the hits latter too. Of course that is with different EV's then what the analysis gives, which is fine as the whole point of this it to use new and creative sets. So Empoleon isn't as important as people seem to think. Going by my experience with it it tended to not perform as well as I would have liked. Any of our Special Walls (Vaporeon/Jellicent/Milotic/Ect...) can take the Lati@s just as well as Empoleon if not better, thanks to being able to switch in multiple times thanks to recover. And don't tell me Empoleon counters the other dragons, cause it doesn't. The physical ones run straight through Empoleon any day of the week.
...sigh, I posted this 3 days ago.
Although, it is nice that we reached the same conclusion twice because it's proving that it is a good one.
EDIT (oh sorry Texas, didn't realize you said this at first. I think we discussed this a while ago...)
I've used jellicent over empoleon, just to try things out, and the Jelli has never disappointed. Especially when it takes 2 or 3 sacrifices to wear the enemy down to a state where nothing can break though him. I've found Quag, Gyara, and Jelli make a tough defensive core to break. The others provide the mandatory support they need.
From extensive experience I can confirm that Hydration Vaporeon is a better wall overall than Jellicent. Asside from being able to take on all the same special threats Jellicent can, if you give it defense EVs it can also take on physical threats as well, including any physical dragon that is not choice banded, something our pure water team would love. Really the only dragon that does give it trouble is Latios, and only when it carries Thunderbolt.
It walls all sorts of other threats as well, both physical and special. It is seriously one of the best walls in the game, if not THE best.
SpDef Tentacruel tanks Draco Meteor and black sludge + rain dish gives it more than enough recovery to pull the trick more than once. I just haven't missed having empoleon on the team between Swampert and Tentacruel as a defensive core.
Does Quag have the physical bulk we are missing? are we missing physical bulk?
Does Quag have the physical bulk we are missing? are we missing physical bulk?
Most Rotom-W carry Volt Switch so SubDos is not going to have a problem.Use DD on the switch you force and then sub up as Rotom breaks your sub and switches out.Not many things can take a +1 Gyarados with rain up...
Just a nitpick but strangely Kingler doesn't learn Waterfall.
Also i think Scarf Crawdant is much better than Scarf Kingler and generally is a good option to easily 2hko Ferro and hit stuff hard.
He only hits 343 speed with a scarf and a positive nature but he makes up for it with his awesome wallbreaking power.
He has 339 attack with a neutral nature.Add Adaptability and Rain in the mix and his Waterfall is really powerfull.
I can't do calcs right now but i am sure that even resistors are in trouble.
EDIT:I did some calcs and here are the results:
Rain boosted Waterfall vs Latios : 508 Atk vs 196 Def & 302 HP (80 Base Power): 223 - 263 (73.84% - 87.09%)
Rain boosted Crabhammer vs Latios : 508 Atk vs 196 Def & 302 HP (90 Base Power): 249 - 294 (82.45% - 97.35%)
Rain boosted Waterfall vs Starmie : 508 Atk vs 206 Def & 261 HP (80 Base Power): 211 - 249 (80.84% - 95.40%)
Rain boosted Crabhammer vs Starmie : 508 Atk vs 206 Def & 261 HP (90 Base Power): 238 - 281 (91.19% - 107.66%)
I made this calcs to show that classic offensive water resistors tha may give our team troubles are potentially ohkoed with a resisted move.You don't even need to predict and go for the Crunch many times.
So scarf Crawdant is definitely an option to consider as a somwhat speedy revenge killer that acts as a wallbreaker at the same time.
And he also deals with our most common problems like Ferro,Gastro and Latios.