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Project Mono-Type: Water
- Thread starter Run
- Start date
From here on out Im going to be using run's team as the first draft for the mono water team it has many of the popular choices, and has a few lesser ones that have potential. Ill be laddering with it today, so Ill post an update concerning the direction, effectiveness, and the potential weakness I experience tonight.
Thx homestead. I will not have internet over the weekend (as always). So posting some of your experiences will be really helpful.
was just reading the OU RMT on the Smog and thought my EVs could use some review... maximized EVs can be a huge help... not my strongest suit tho. a little help?
Also, anyone else still testing Mono-Water? What I would like to have by next week is maybe 3 teams to list in the second post to leave permanently as we move on to other types. Iron out the wrinkles and post your teams!
was just reading the OU RMT on the Smog and thought my EVs could use some review... maximized EVs can be a huge help... not my strongest suit tho. a little help?
Also, anyone else still testing Mono-Water? What I would like to have by next week is maybe 3 teams to list in the second post to leave permanently as we move on to other types. Iron out the wrinkles and post your teams!
Alright so as far as testing the team went today it went bad. The problem with the team is that because it can not realistically switch all that much the opponent has too many opportunities to punish you for having a water poke. Swampert is a must for the team because of its resistance to electric attacks which would otherwise cripple the rest of the team. Then there is momentum this team as it stands lacks a way to easily maintain the momentum it has without making perfect predictions the entire game.
Ultimately i think the weakest link might be vaporeon (which sucks because its fun to use) the problem being that it is by far the most difficult thing to switch in aside from maybe starmie. Starmie though is too good to lose in the rain as it can deal tons of damage to entire teams as long as they dont pack water resists. The current direction im considering is adding another special sweeper that is probably going to be scarfed that way it can revenge kill before or after starmie does all of its handy work. Im leaning towards a bulkier gyra as well.
The potential choices as I see it for this new pokemon are:
Empoleon modest
@choice specs
248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Hydro pump/surf
hidden power fire
ice beam
grass knot
Basically this set would fill two functions for the team it would add another resist in the form of a steel type while attempting to maintain some the bulk we had with vaporeon. As well providing another solid method of damaging the opponent with the max attack choice specs hydro pump in the rain. The rest of is attacking moves are for coverage obviously with hp fire for the ferrothorn issues this team has.
Rotom-w timid
@choice scarf
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
volt turn
hydro pump
trick
hidden power ice
The main concept here is to use rotom as a revenge killer and scout with volt turn. Volt turn is also useful for this team because it allows a different way to switch around and a way to gain momentum. rotoms levitate ability and electric typing add to the team's list of resistances which will help make it unpredictable especially when someone wants to eq tenta which happens a good deal.
Kingdra
so many sets are open for kingra to use a sniper specs kingdra could viably breeze through some teams in the rain the same goes for a lo mixed set or lo non mixed set if rotom or empoleon dont synergize well Im going to try different combinations of our current options.
an offensive vaporeon is viable for the same reasons as above, but I still believe it wont work well on the team. Im off to go test rotom so maybe someone could test empoleon or kingdra.
Ultimately i think the weakest link might be vaporeon (which sucks because its fun to use) the problem being that it is by far the most difficult thing to switch in aside from maybe starmie. Starmie though is too good to lose in the rain as it can deal tons of damage to entire teams as long as they dont pack water resists. The current direction im considering is adding another special sweeper that is probably going to be scarfed that way it can revenge kill before or after starmie does all of its handy work. Im leaning towards a bulkier gyra as well.
The potential choices as I see it for this new pokemon are:
Empoleon modest
@choice specs
248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Hydro pump/surf
hidden power fire
ice beam
grass knot
Basically this set would fill two functions for the team it would add another resist in the form of a steel type while attempting to maintain some the bulk we had with vaporeon. As well providing another solid method of damaging the opponent with the max attack choice specs hydro pump in the rain. The rest of is attacking moves are for coverage obviously with hp fire for the ferrothorn issues this team has.
Rotom-w timid
@choice scarf
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
volt turn
hydro pump
trick
hidden power ice
The main concept here is to use rotom as a revenge killer and scout with volt turn. Volt turn is also useful for this team because it allows a different way to switch around and a way to gain momentum. rotoms levitate ability and electric typing add to the team's list of resistances which will help make it unpredictable especially when someone wants to eq tenta which happens a good deal.
Kingdra
so many sets are open for kingra to use a sniper specs kingdra could viably breeze through some teams in the rain the same goes for a lo mixed set or lo non mixed set if rotom or empoleon dont synergize well Im going to try different combinations of our current options.
an offensive vaporeon is viable for the same reasons as above, but I still believe it wont work well on the team. Im off to go test rotom so maybe someone could test empoleon or kingdra.
Why HP fire on empoleon? I know there are occasionally times when rain isn't in effect. But I do a pretty decent job of winning weather wars 95% of the time.
I see your point about not being able to reliably switch, which is a problem I run into a lot with most mono-type teams. Sometimes it becomes more about managing hp and sacrificing pokes in order to set yourself up. I have a hard time giving up Vaporeon since he's been extremely useful... but I wouldn't know who else to drop.
Keep me informed on your progress and thanks for the help.
Also, as I asked before... do we have any EV gurus out there to help with optimizing some of these spreads?
I see your point about not being able to reliably switch, which is a problem I run into a lot with most mono-type teams. Sometimes it becomes more about managing hp and sacrificing pokes in order to set yourself up. I have a hard time giving up Vaporeon since he's been extremely useful... but I wouldn't know who else to drop.
Keep me informed on your progress and thanks for the help.
Also, as I asked before... do we have any EV gurus out there to help with optimizing some of these spreads?
<rant>AHKGAMABABAM Remove Vaporeon because it's hard to switch in? That's because you're using an OFFENSIVE set. Use the set I posted and you can switch into most anything provided you're at full HP, and when you have Hydra-rest getting full HP is a one turn deal.
I understand why the dang Life Orb set is getting more attention. It seems so cool, so unexpected. But the bottom line is that you're just not using Vaporeon to its full potential unless you go full blown, all out defensive with Hydra-Rest. </rant>
anyway, I'm going to try testing Run's team out for myself, only with my defensive Vaporeon instead of the offensive version. I'll let you know how it goes.
EDIT: After testing it for a couple hours, I'm quite impressed with how well it functions. Asside from one Pokemon which is an automatic lose condition, if you play it properly you can work your way around almost anything. That lose condition Pokemon? Prepare to be stunned, because it's... Galvuntula. Yeah, Galvuntula. They always carry Thunder and Energy Ball, which together hit everything on the team for super effective, never miss damage. It outspeeds everyone on the team. It also OHKOs everyone on the team. Seriously, it's hilarious. But I made one modification that should prevent that from happening again.
I suggest changing Starmie's nature to Timid, because I found myself being outsped by positive natured opponents that were VITAL for me to outspeed far too often. The power loss is regretable, but seriously, not being able to revenge extremely dangerous threats is a much bigger issue. And getting swept by a Galvuntula is just embarrassing. Hydro Pump is available for extra power, should you wish to risk the accuracy loss.
I understand why the dang Life Orb set is getting more attention. It seems so cool, so unexpected. But the bottom line is that you're just not using Vaporeon to its full potential unless you go full blown, all out defensive with Hydra-Rest. </rant>
anyway, I'm going to try testing Run's team out for myself, only with my defensive Vaporeon instead of the offensive version. I'll let you know how it goes.
EDIT: After testing it for a couple hours, I'm quite impressed with how well it functions. Asside from one Pokemon which is an automatic lose condition, if you play it properly you can work your way around almost anything. That lose condition Pokemon? Prepare to be stunned, because it's... Galvuntula. Yeah, Galvuntula. They always carry Thunder and Energy Ball, which together hit everything on the team for super effective, never miss damage. It outspeeds everyone on the team. It also OHKOs everyone on the team. Seriously, it's hilarious. But I made one modification that should prevent that from happening again.
I suggest changing Starmie's nature to Timid, because I found myself being outsped by positive natured opponents that were VITAL for me to outspeed far too often. The power loss is regretable, but seriously, not being able to revenge extremely dangerous threats is a much bigger issue. And getting swept by a Galvuntula is just embarrassing. Hydro Pump is available for extra power, should you wish to risk the accuracy loss.
I was using a defensive vaporeon it made an excellent tank as long as it got a free switch in, and won me a few games, but there were so many times when I had to sac it for my sweepers or other walls to win me the games. the reason I decided to remove vaporeon from the team when I was testing it is that it doesnt have a secondary typing and likewise doesnt have as much resists.
Now galvantula while its moveset is quite threatening id like to call into question the evs you used on your team because even a choice specs jolteon using thunderbolt does 79-92% damage to tentacruel and then defensive vaporeon takes 89-106%. Jolteon has base 110 special attack versus galvantulas 97 a considerable difference. so unless youre trying to switch around it and win that way all thats needed is to sac a mon and either revenge kill if its choiced, or send in one of those tanks to hit it on its weak defenses or stall out with sr and toxic spikes something i often ended up doing.
As for my current team changes rotom-w is out because it didnt function the way i wanted it too while scarfed Im going to try empoleon next, the hp fire is for ferrothorn according to the analysis of it hp fire still does more damage under the rain. Hp fighting would be better coverage with ice beam though and would still hit ferro hard ill play around with that too. Starmie is going to be timid from now so that it can outspeed things like infernape, mienshao, galvantula!!! and the like. For this reason i may try a specs set that uses trick over recover. Also were dumb as a group for not changing tbolt to thunder yet which has more base power and 100% accuracy in rain. So im doing that.
Good luck with the team building guys id love to hear more suggestions.
Galvantula runs Thunder, not tbolt, so Specs would have no issue with Cruel. Not sure about LO variants, though.
The problem is that Choice Scarf Galvantula could just run over the team with STAB Thunder. Even 252/252 Calm Tentacruel is 2HKO'ed.
Swampert is looking better and better. Not only can it get SR up to mess with Galvantula, but with 252HP EVs and a Careful Nature it survives a Choice Scarf Energy Ball 100% of the time at full health. It then guarantees a OHKO with Stone Edge or dents it severely with Waterfall (62.8% - 73.8%, 93.6% - 110.6% when in Torrent) for a priority user to clean up. It's still a revenge kill rather than a counter, but you have to make do.
Of course, it all depends on whether or not you're really scared of how often Galvantula comes up.
Swampert is looking better and better. Not only can it get SR up to mess with Galvantula, but with 252HP EVs and a Careful Nature it survives a Choice Scarf Energy Ball 100% of the time at full health. It then guarantees a OHKO with Stone Edge or dents it severely with Waterfall (62.8% - 73.8%, 93.6% - 110.6% when in Torrent) for a priority user to clean up. It's still a revenge kill rather than a counter, but you have to make do.
Of course, it all depends on whether or not you're really scared of how often Galvantula comes up.
Galvantula is extremely rare in OU, but as everyone said, it can pose a huge threat. Swampert's not switching in on it, nor is it setting up rocks on it. Starmie can't switch in, fearing Bug Buzz, Energy Ball, AND Thunder, but it can revenge. Ludicolo doesn't appreciate Thunder, and hates Bug Buzz even more.
That being said, it's freaking rare in OU. I don't it's a big enough threat to consider.
That being said, it's freaking rare in OU. I don't it's a big enough threat to consider.
Thanks for destroying whatever point you are making...
If a top-tier team is fully hard-countered by a rarely seen and used Pokemon, I don't think anyone will bother to give two shits about it, really. Every team has their flaws after all.
I guess I was saying was that, while Galvantula is insanely dangerous to a mono-water team, it's really too rare to be concerned about.
Outside of Jelli and possibly Starmie, what in a mono-water team can handle Scarf and Band Terrakion? He's everywhere nowadays and literally rips everything a new one :\
Outside of Jelli and possibly Starmie, what in a mono-water team can handle Scarf and Band Terrakion? He's everywhere nowadays and literally rips everything a new one :\
Slowbro can take on Terrakion without X-Scissor, but it has a redundant typing with Starmie.
Another update I made to Run's team, is it turns out Psyshock is totally outclassed by Psychic on Life Orb Starmie, as it doesn't do enough to beat Blissey or Chansey anyway, and it has also missed out on key KOs several times (Most horrifically, a Haxorus with Sword Dance up only took 50% from it, and then proceeded to rip apart the whole team). Either run Psychic or Ice Beam instead.
As for the issue of Galvantula, geeze I didn't mean to stir up this much discussion about it. I mentioned it more as a funny "lol look at what of all things hard counters our team" rather than as a legitimate threat. Even in the lower on the ladder where it's more common I only every encountered one of them (which of course destroyed me). It's not common enough to worry about people, no worries.
As for Terrakion, I haven't had any issues with it so far. It is worth noting that it has a hell of a hard time switching into anything on our team, seeing as literally everything on our team can hit it super-effectively. If it's not scarfed, Starmie easily revenges it, and if it IS Scarfed then Vaporeon (the max defense set I use) can easily tank it. Either way, it's not that hard to deal with, as long as you keep on your toes.
As for the issue of Galvantula, geeze I didn't mean to stir up this much discussion about it. I mentioned it more as a funny "lol look at what of all things hard counters our team" rather than as a legitimate threat. Even in the lower on the ladder where it's more common I only every encountered one of them (which of course destroyed me). It's not common enough to worry about people, no worries.
As for Terrakion, I haven't had any issues with it so far. It is worth noting that it has a hell of a hard time switching into anything on our team, seeing as literally everything on our team can hit it super-effectively. If it's not scarfed, Starmie easily revenges it, and if it IS Scarfed then Vaporeon (the max defense set I use) can easily tank it. Either way, it's not that hard to deal with, as long as you keep on your toes.
is there any case where either move makes a significant difference for starmie? Ive been wanting to play around with its moveset some more to see if i can get more useful coverage with it. Im probably going to back to vaporeon because as it stands the extra resistances we can add arent game changing for me and vaporeon can stall out so many mons with hydration. Has anyone else been testing the team and had any problems or made any changes?
Scizor isn't a problem for the Hydration Wall Vaporeon I use, so the OHKO on it isn't necessary anyway. Honestly on a team full of water types, all of which resist bullet punch, Scizor just isn't much of a problem, period. On the other hand, things like Terrakion, Galvantula, Gengar, Haxorus, etc. ARE a danger and you don't outspeed positive natured ones with Modest. Starmie is really the only truly fast thing we have on our team, so it's absolutely vital it be fast enough to take out these threats. Psychic does have an advantage in being able to hit a few select Pokemon we'd have trouble with otherwise for supereffective damage, while providing us with a second STAB for those Pokemon that resist Hydro Pump/Surf, but Ice Beam is awesome for things like Celebi and all the dragons that tend to give us a lot of trouble. Really the only significant opponents that psychic takes out are Virizon and Toxicroak. Virizon is hit super effectively by Ice Beam anyway, and Toxicroak will just sucker punch the shit out of Starmie anyway, so Ice Beam just seems the superior option overall.
fiddling around with choice band empoleon...
Empoleon @ choice band
Adamant Nature
252 HP, 252 Atk, 4 Def/SpD
-Aqua Jet
-Waterfall
-Avalanche
-Earthquake
banded aqua jet in the rain is really effective. Avalanche destroys outraging dragons you come in on. plus a lot of the grass pokes that fail to 1HKO. EQ is obviously a great coverage move.
Its still pretty iffy overall, but has been really handy in a few games.
Empoleon @ choice band
Adamant Nature
252 HP, 252 Atk, 4 Def/SpD
-Aqua Jet
-Waterfall
-Avalanche
-Earthquake
banded aqua jet in the rain is really effective. Avalanche destroys outraging dragons you come in on. plus a lot of the grass pokes that fail to 1HKO. EQ is obviously a great coverage move.
Its still pretty iffy overall, but has been really handy in a few games.
Interesting set. I think it has its uses over Azumarril thanks to its useful Steel typing.
I have tried Swords Dance Empoleon, its really nice when it gets the Torrent boost. Ive used it as a slower version of the popular 4th Gen Agility sweeper set and it works alright.
I think it deserves a look over Azumarril mainly due to its Steel typing although losing Superpower is a little concerning.
***updated second post***
This will probably be my last update. Feel free to continue discussing the water type in this thread. I would love to hear what you have learned from this experience. I hope we are able to stretch ourselves more with future Project Mono-Type experiments. Thank you all so much for your participation.
This will probably be my last update. Feel free to continue discussing the water type in this thread. I would love to hear what you have learned from this experience. I hope we are able to stretch ourselves more with future Project Mono-Type experiments. Thank you all so much for your participation.
I'll be honest, I didn't really read much of this, but I've been working on a mono-water team for a while, and it's a really fun experience.(EDIT, I read a few of the later pages when the team was being tested, and found a lot of the comments to be in-line with a lot of what I noticed. Also, wtf Galvantula? LOL)
Use Swampert. Unaware Quagsire can also be useful, but I feel like an idiot just saying it; they cover electric and doesn't afraid of much but grass. They can also benefit from a Trick-Room from Slowbro, as a lot of Bulky Waters tend to be on the slower side (Swampert, Bro himself, Vaporeon, and the list goes on - the only thing that stops a full Mono-Water trick-room team is a lack of pokes to set it up -I think-)
Use Vaporeon, to wish Swampert when he needs it. Face it, as cool as Hydration/Rest is, Wish benefits your whole team, especially because Vaporeon is one of the best wishers you can find, and it doesn't get shafted by opposing weather. Give it ice-beam to cover the grass weakness he has, and Scald to provide burn. Water is ALL ABOUT BULK, so go with Acid Armor too. It sounds strange, but a good chunk of your supportmon should have Scald as their primary stab, so if you combine that with Vappy's huge HP, acid armor just leaves all of their physical sweepers useless.
A good Slowbro is bro-tier too - I can't stress how good and annoying he is, but you all know that. So many options. He can run Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Focus Blast, Thunder Wave, his movepool is SOOO gravy.
Ludicolo is a good choice, being neutral to both Grass and Electric, as well as fire, his typing sort of runs contrary to the rest of the teams. His Bulk, especially if you run Rain-Dish and some Rain Dance, is just outstanding. Leech-Seed, Scald, Giga Drain, and Substitute make him LAST FOREVER - plus, he handles enemy water-types. I know a lot of people don't consider him at all unless it's with Swift Swim in Rain, but he puts up one hell of a stall.
I used Lapras, but I'm biased. Please, use Shell Smash Cloyster. The only weaknesses you have to worry about as a whole are electric and grass; Cloyster gets hit by Fighting pretty rough, but Skill Link Icicle Spear and Rock Blast are really useful (Ludicolo and Slowbro invite a Bug weakness that Rock Blast covers, so it's more than just secondary Skill Link fun). Rapid Spin finishes him up. The ONLY reason to use Lapras instead is that it can learn Thunder(bolt if no rain), and Heal-Bell from Gen IV. Good, but not really key. I'll add Starmie here too, because I already mentioned Cloyster as a rapid spinner. Either one works, really; Starmie does out-speed Gengar ect, but I feel like Cloyster will catch them off-guard. Starmie also learns thunder(bolt), if that's really necessary. To be honest, I've never used Starmie, so I can't speak of it's pros or cons, besides that every time I've seen it used by others, I've seen it die pathetically.
Tentacruel and Jellicent are worth mentioning, too; great special defenders that compliment Slowbro and Vaporeon really well. These guys give you an absolutely solid defense, with nice, interesting typing.
Kingdra, Kabutops, and/or Carracosta are all pretty good sweepers, all similar but with their own virtues. Carracosta will rely mainly on Shell Smash like Cloyster, but the other two need rain support. Water is pretty neutral attack-wise, so the extra stab makes it threatening.
I don't know if this is really enough to make one, coherent team, but it has enough building blocks that there should totally be enough to make some teams with.
Mine ended up as Cursepert, Slowbro, Heal Bell Lapras, Shell Smash Carracosta, Wish Vaporeon, and Rain Dance Kingdra.
I know there are areas where it could be better, but it wasn't really designed for the competitive levels that are being looked for here, either. It does hold it's own though; a lot of teams aren't really designed to handle more than one Bulky Water if you can take their counter out quickly.
Use Swampert. Unaware Quagsire can also be useful, but I feel like an idiot just saying it; they cover electric and doesn't afraid of much but grass. They can also benefit from a Trick-Room from Slowbro, as a lot of Bulky Waters tend to be on the slower side (Swampert, Bro himself, Vaporeon, and the list goes on - the only thing that stops a full Mono-Water trick-room team is a lack of pokes to set it up -I think-)
Use Vaporeon, to wish Swampert when he needs it. Face it, as cool as Hydration/Rest is, Wish benefits your whole team, especially because Vaporeon is one of the best wishers you can find, and it doesn't get shafted by opposing weather. Give it ice-beam to cover the grass weakness he has, and Scald to provide burn. Water is ALL ABOUT BULK, so go with Acid Armor too. It sounds strange, but a good chunk of your supportmon should have Scald as their primary stab, so if you combine that with Vappy's huge HP, acid armor just leaves all of their physical sweepers useless.
A good Slowbro is bro-tier too - I can't stress how good and annoying he is, but you all know that. So many options. He can run Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Focus Blast, Thunder Wave, his movepool is SOOO gravy.
Ludicolo is a good choice, being neutral to both Grass and Electric, as well as fire, his typing sort of runs contrary to the rest of the teams. His Bulk, especially if you run Rain-Dish and some Rain Dance, is just outstanding. Leech-Seed, Scald, Giga Drain, and Substitute make him LAST FOREVER - plus, he handles enemy water-types. I know a lot of people don't consider him at all unless it's with Swift Swim in Rain, but he puts up one hell of a stall.
I used Lapras, but I'm biased. Please, use Shell Smash Cloyster. The only weaknesses you have to worry about as a whole are electric and grass; Cloyster gets hit by Fighting pretty rough, but Skill Link Icicle Spear and Rock Blast are really useful (Ludicolo and Slowbro invite a Bug weakness that Rock Blast covers, so it's more than just secondary Skill Link fun). Rapid Spin finishes him up. The ONLY reason to use Lapras instead is that it can learn Thunder(bolt if no rain), and Heal-Bell from Gen IV. Good, but not really key. I'll add Starmie here too, because I already mentioned Cloyster as a rapid spinner. Either one works, really; Starmie does out-speed Gengar ect, but I feel like Cloyster will catch them off-guard. Starmie also learns thunder(bolt), if that's really necessary. To be honest, I've never used Starmie, so I can't speak of it's pros or cons, besides that every time I've seen it used by others, I've seen it die pathetically.
Tentacruel and Jellicent are worth mentioning, too; great special defenders that compliment Slowbro and Vaporeon really well. These guys give you an absolutely solid defense, with nice, interesting typing.
Kingdra, Kabutops, and/or Carracosta are all pretty good sweepers, all similar but with their own virtues. Carracosta will rely mainly on Shell Smash like Cloyster, but the other two need rain support. Water is pretty neutral attack-wise, so the extra stab makes it threatening.
I don't know if this is really enough to make one, coherent team, but it has enough building blocks that there should totally be enough to make some teams with.
Mine ended up as Cursepert, Slowbro, Heal Bell Lapras, Shell Smash Carracosta, Wish Vaporeon, and Rain Dance Kingdra.
I know there are areas where it could be better, but it wasn't really designed for the competitive levels that are being looked for here, either. It does hold it's own though; a lot of teams aren't really designed to handle more than one Bulky Water if you can take their counter out quickly.