OU RBY OU Discussion Thread

[Leader of the Rockets]

Cholaski is a funny name. It's fun to say. As an excuse to say it more, I'm going to make a random post. No one but me is going to care about the following schizophrenic post, but I have no where else to say any of this. So I will say it here just for fun.

90 Plus Gxe was a player who was most active in 2016-2017. He topped the ladder often and as the name suggests, had 90 plus gxe. Like Cholaski, he replaced Lax with Cloyster and used the sing/ice beam/thunder bolt/soft boil set on Chansey, but other than have the obligatory tauros, the team he used differed (honestly maybe his team was even better). But in addition to using cloyster over lax and that Chansey set (which at this time, no one else used but Cholaski) he had a gameplay quirk that was also only used by Cholaski... Cholaski still does it to this day... when his chansey is face to face with a healthy Snorlax, whether his chansey is paralyzed or not, he always clicks ice beam. Almost ALWAYS. They BOTH did this. It's tantamount to a villain's calling card.

Neither Cholaski nor 90 plus gxe hid their replays. They often saved their replays against players.

90 plus gxe's earliest replay is October 2016

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-464581484

Cholaski's earliest replay is also... October 2016

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-449657696?p2

You can watch their replays of them playing all the active players at the time... Peasounay, Marco, Kaz, all the active ladder players, etc. They were both the most active at the same time; both very often near the top of the ladder, yet there is not a SINGLE replay of them playing each other. All of this to say after almost 10 years... I figured you out. If whoever is behind those accounts is reading this... WHO ARE YOU!? Why do you keep changing accounts? AND ALSO... you make really good teams and were ahead of the times <3 :) The team 90 plus gxe used was
Gengar/Cloyster/Zapdos/Alakazam/Chansey/Tauros. This team was the team I used to top the ladder for the first time somewhere around 2018. I didn't quite get a 90 gxe back then, but I got close at around 89. Still a good team. Well, there's some obscure pokemon history for ya.

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

To add: Cholaski most recently was active under the account, The Weezing Wonder. Many of you played him. I know that's him, because I was watching The Weezing Wonder play live, and I said to him, "Hey, that team you're using was used by a player named Cholaski years ago. Ever heard of him?" He privately messaged me, "One sec." Then when he was done with his match, he switched to his OG Cholaski account and said, "What's up?" I was so surprised to see him active all these years later. He told me that he tops the ladder yearly under a different account and that "No one ever knows." That last sentence he said to me, "No one ever knows," was extremely mysterious thinking back on it, because... why would he care if they did? A strange character for sure.

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

Holy shit. I haven't gone through these replays in a long time. But man... Getting a 90 plus gxe with a 1700 elo rating was not easy back then guys... this dude was insane

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-482353192?p2 Against Marco for the 1712 (TURN 13 FOR THE CHOLASKI SPECIAL)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-487447458?p2 Against Peasounay (TURN 24 FOR THE CHOLASKI SPECIAL)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-532475094?p2 Against Lusch

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-583331443?p2 Against Kaz

The competition was crazy and he was just stealing souls. Whoa

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

If I may, very few will be believe it, but yeah, topping the ladder isn't hard running the same team over and over without even altering a thing....the competitive nature of the ladder is still relative to that of the stakes being only an ELO score.That being said, if it's possible to play the same 2 teams and top the ladder every year, yeah. And for a for a decade straight lol, and beat top players who win in the tournaments. I'll even say that Chansey should only definitively be Ubers, but no one will care. :) and Chansey is far similar to mew and Mewtwo than most care to admit.

Topping the ladder in and of itself is not difficult. I've seen people with gxes in the 70s that have topped it. An inconsistent player can go on a lucky streak. But doing so at a very high elo (1700s say) and at a high gxe (above 90) is difficult, and most have never done it. I've topped the ladder a thousand times and haven't. Also, you'll see many people who seem to be good at getting high gxes, but for some reason can rarely hit number 1, which suggests someone prone to choking at crucial moments.

Also, gen 1 ou tournaments are not... very high stakes relative to other competitive games. It's not like tournament stakes are a huge jump from ladder. To add to that, gen 1 is also relatively simple as well, and there is no somatic skill involved, so it isn't like one needs some resource outside of ladder and replays for practice. It's been a very long time since I watched a pokemon match and didn't understand why every single move was made. And that's like... more than half the game right there. All that assuming your implied premise, that low stakes equal low quality gameplay, is even true. It probably isn't for most. High stakes make most people play sloppy and nervous, and only a few rare freaks like the pressure and perform better under it than a more comfortable setting.

ALSO, the time at which you top the ladder matters. When 90 Plus Gxe hit the 1700s at that time (with a 90 plus gxe), all the best players were on the ladder. I mean look at these back to back to back replays. He had to fight Marco 3 times in row basically (And he won all three of these games). It's pretty hard to get 1700 plus elo with 90 plus gxe today; it was even harder back then at that specific time.

 

[Soda_Eesti]

1. Chansey should not be ubers. Its not near an offensive threat in most cases and is whacked around by physical attackers. Howver this is coming from someone who thinks rby ubers shouldnt be a thing so w/e,

It's not like tournament stakes are a huge jump from ladder.

2. I dont get this statement. Its absolutely a huge jump, with circuit tournament points, in certain scenarios a forum trophy, and even sometimes money on the line. There are very few tournaments that dont give you ANYTHING. Ladder gives you nothing but an ego to use to brag torwards
people who could not care less.

3. Tournament is also against way better players. Beating little timmy at 1300 is not equivilant to beating amaranth or kenix.

and only a few rare freaks like the pressure and perform better under it than a more comfortable setting.

4. Alot of people play better in tournaments than on ladder or in friendlies. This isnt universal and isnt near true.

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

1. Chansey should not be ubers. Its not near an offensive threat in most cases and is whacked around by physical attackers. Howver this is coming from someone who thinks rby ubers shouldnt be a thing so w/e,


2. I dont get this statement. Its absolutely a huge jump, with circuit tournament points, in certain scenarios a forum trophy, and even sometimes money on the line. There are very few tournaments that dont give you ANYTHING. Ladder gives you nothing but an ego to use to brag torwards
people who could not care less.

3. Tournament is also against way better players. Beating little timmy at 1300 is not equivilant to beating amaranth or kenix.


4. Alot of people play better in tournaments than on ladder or in friendlies. This isnt universal and isnt near true.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2331502592?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2329625088

I haven't entered a tournament in years (I've only entered two life time. Won one. Lost one.) and it personally, to me at least, didn't feel different from playing the same guys on the ladder. I have not entered a tournament in many years, yet for all I know I'm positive against the player you mentioned, Amaranth, in games. What am I to do with this data? You know what I mean? I know I'm super good, but I just don't feel like entering tournaments. So, from my personal point of view, it is hard for me to hold tournaments in the same esteem that you do.

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

is he rby ebola?

No. I've played both of them a lot, and Ebola is not as good. No hate toward Ebola. Ebola is a fine player who could be really amazing and consistent if he really locked in, but yeah, it's just the truth that he isn't as good as of now.

 

[Amaranth]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2331502592?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2329625088

I haven't entered a tournament in years (I've only entered two life time. Won one. Lost one.) and it personally, to me at least, didn't feel different from playing the same guys on the ladder. I have not entered a tournament in many years, yet for all I know I'm positive against the player you mentioned, Amaranth, in games. What am I to do with this data? You know what I mean? I know I'm super good, but I just don't feel like entering tournaments. So, from my personal point of view, it is hard for me to hold tournaments in the same esteem that you do.

i dont ladder outside of ladder tournament season so you are indeed probably 2-0 lifetime against me. good work!
you dont need to listen to people telling you how to enjoy yourself, if you like jerking it to your elo going up you can keep laddering for the rest of your days, nothing wrong with it
you're going to have a hard time convincing anybody that you're the greatest with no smogon tournament evidence, but that's okay. you're good enough to give players like me a fight, that means you're a solid player, everything beyond that is pretty much a matter of opinion

would be fun to see you in tours, otherwise we'll meet again on the ladder next time ladder tour comes around. have a good day man

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

i dont ladder outside of ladder tournament season so you are indeed probably 2-0 lifetime against me. good work!
you dont need to listen to people telling you how to enjoy yourself, if you like jerking it to your elo going up you can keep laddering for the rest of your days, nothing wrong with it
you're going to have a hard time convincing anybody that you're the greatest with no smogon tournament evidence, but that's okay. you're good enough to give players like me a fight, that means you're a solid player, everything beyond that is pretty much a matter of opinion

would be fun to see you in tours, otherwise we'll meet again on the ladder next time ladder tour comes around. have a good day man

Yeah, it wasn't meant to belittle you (you're obviously really good), and I have no desire for the title "greatest of all time." I'm good enough to put up a fight and win against anyone like you said, and I'm as knowledgeable about the game as anyone. If you want to jerk it to ephemeral tournament wins that's cool too lol. You can maybe be the next GGFan if you keep trying xD . But yeah bro, egos aside, I think you're great, and maybe I will be in a tour one of these days. It'd be fun to play you in an environment you value.

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

I found his alt, it's "Meta4International" on the replays of that account is that same exact team.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2159938843

it took me forever to find this, but I remember watching that account play, and I stole the team in this replay from him. The team in this replay is the only one I ever saw that account use, and I thought it was interesting. Never knew it used the Cholaski team, though I should have suspected it by the similar team structure and Chansey set. For whatever reason, this team works. It looks like it sucks, but it is actually not bad. I had forgotten all about that team and that account until you just mentioned it. People think this team sucks as well, so a lot of people rage when you beat them with it, but it is actually not bad.

Raticate/Chansey/Tauros/Golem/Starmie/Gengar

And sometimes he would use a variation where he replaced Gengar with Jynx.

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

As much as Chaneyless has grown, and is obviously now going to be a big part of the game, I do think it is only the next evolution. I don't personally think the game's meta ends with aggressive Chanseyless teams. I just think Chaseyless exposes that the old Chansey teams weren't all they were cracked up to be. Good, but no where near as dominant as they were once thought. In an earlier post regarding stall teams, I said something to the effect of: once the lead is gotten with a team prioritizing defense, one feels very safe in comparison to gaining the lead with a team prioritizing aggression, and that if only one could find a way to consistently gain this lead with a defense heavy team, it would be game-changing. I think that is the last evolution of gen 1 ou's meta. In the end I think we will be playing very long games. I've been playing with some defense strats lately and... yeah... High crit chances and tauros have fooled people. Defense in this game is actually crazy and will most likely turn out to be king. It's no where near as fun to play as something like Chaseyless, but the next evolution of the meta is just waiting for patient players who can have fun playing games most people find boring to watch.

 

[Gerbungis]

when life gives you lemons, go chanseyless

 

[Fighting Jellyfish]

When using a team without snorlax what's the best way to deal with your opponent's chansey?

 

[Eeveeto]

When using a team without snorlax what's the best way to deal with your opponent's chansey?

Rest + Double Kick Jolteon is an amazing check to Chansey and also to Zapdos.
Rest Gengar is pretty bad, but one of the best Chansey and no EQ or Amnesia Lax stops, unless it gets frozen (and even then, frozen Gengar means your own Chansey is not getting frozen).
Alakazam in the long run overwhelms Chansey.
Physical offense in general, though this one is pretty obvious. Notorious mention of Explosion and random Submission users (this is also a fun move, if you die of recoil, Chansey won,t be healing that turn).
Not paralyzing Chansey and sleeping it instead is also good.
If you do paralyze Chansey, you can try Wrap, flinch moves or Amnesia Slowbro (except vs Tbolt). Also Rhydon, if you are good at predicting.

Overall, Snorlax teams are going to be better than No Snorlax teams like 60% of the time, but without Lax you still have a lot of ways to beat Chansey.

 

[Ortheore]

Honestly if I'm running Laxless I tend to default to Don+Bro (Cloyster is notable as well lol), which is one of the more common Laxless structures. As mentioned Don can fill Lax's shoes but it really wants safe switches- Water types that are capable of threatening Chansey are top of the list. Bro is obviously a significant potential threat if you let it boost, so it's fantastic at forcing TWave/Tbolt, while Cloy also strongly baits para, and can directly secure a free switch if necessary w Clamp.

There are other structures ofc and Eeveeto's list is solid. Personally I think setting out to build a team without Lax (or any of the Normals) isn't necessarily a great approach, it's more like you start out with a concept and find that it doesn't make sense to fit it onto the team.

 

[Fighting Jellyfish]

Thanks Eeveeto and Ortheore.

Nothing seems to be as effective as Snorlax switching into a paralysed chansey and spamming body slam, because pretty much nothing can switch in without taking damage/risking para.

Personally I think setting out to build a team without Lax (or any of the Normals) isn't necessarily a great approach, it's more like you start out with a concept and find that it doesn't make sense to fit it onto the team.

I agree, do you have any examples of teams which drop lax? When would it be appropriate to do that?

 

[Ortheore]

I agree, do you have any examples of teams which drop lax? When would it be appropriate to do that?

I'm probably not the best person to ask since all my teams these days tend to revolve around shitmons. The main example that I'm working with atm would be Wrap teams, however even then I'm mostly experimenting with ideas that are probably bad, like solo Dragonair and ToxWrap.

I went looking through my old teams for a more conventional Laxless team, and found this BroDon team- it's rather old, but I reckon it would hold up today since all the sets are pretty safe: ffs pokepaste isn't working for me. In this case Laxless makes sense because Bro/Don synergise amazingly, but pairing them with Lax can make it difficult to fill out the rest of the team, between sleep, sufficient para (Chansey alone isn't great imo) and coverage for special attackers

 

[Teh]

I don't think anyone has done this yet, so I compiled RBY Cup XI's usage stats.

Overall

 + ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Tauros             |  787 |  95.05% |  48.03% |
| 2    | Snorlax            |  768 |  92.75% |  49.74% |
| 3    | Chansey            |  674 |  81.40% |  49.41% |
| 4    | Exeggutor          |  607 |  73.31% |  49.26% |
| 5    | Starmie            |  589 |  71.14% |  52.12% |
| 6    | Alakazam           |  287 |  34.66% |  50.87% |
| 7    | Zapdos             |  261 |  31.52% |  45.59% |
| 8    | Rhydon             |  219 |  26.45% |  48.86% |
| 9    | Jynx               |  207 |  25.00% |  54.59% |
| 10   | Gengar             |  172 |  20.77% |  38.95% |
| 11   | Cloyster           |  107 |  12.92% |  44.86% |
| 12   | Jolteon            |   39 |   4.71% |  38.46% |
| 13   | Slowbro            |   24 |   2.90% |  45.83% |
| 14   | Articuno           |   16 |   1.93% |  31.25% |
| 15   | Victreebel         |   15 |   1.81% |  60.00% |
| 16   | Lapras             |   12 |   1.45% |  50.00% |
| 17   | Golem              |   10 |   1.21% |  60.00% |
| 18   | Dragonite          |    9 |   1.09% |  44.44% |
| 19   | Sandslash          |    6 |   0.72% |  66.67% |
| 19   | Moltres            |    6 |   0.72% |  50.00% |
| 19   | Persian            |    6 |   0.72% |  33.33% |
| 22   | Venusaur           |    5 |   0.60% |  60.00% |
| 23   | Omastar            |    4 |   0.48% |  50.00% |
| 24   | Poliwrath          |    3 |   0.36% |  66.67% |
| 24   | Hypno              |    3 |   0.36% |   0.00% |
| 26   | Porygon            |    2 |   0.24% | 100.00% |
| 26   | Kingler            |    2 |   0.24% |  50.00% |
| 28   | Gyarados           |    1 |   0.12% | 100.00% |
| 28   | Kangaskhan         |    1 |   0.12% | 100.00% |
| 28   | Nidoqueen          |    1 |   0.12% | 100.00% |
| 28   | Tentacruel         |    1 |   0.12% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Dragonair          |    1 |   0.12% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Clefable           |    1 |   0.12% |   0.00% |

Leads

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Leads                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Starmie                 |  273 |  32.97% |  53.85% |
| 2    | Jynx                    |  179 |  21.62% |  53.63% |
| 3    | Alakazam                |  154 |  18.60% |  55.19% |
| 4    | Gengar                  |  130 |  15.70% |  38.46% |
| 5    | Zapdos                  |   32 |   3.86% |  40.62% |
| 6    | Jolteon                 |   19 |   2.29% |  36.84% |
| 7    | Chansey                 |   18 |   2.17% |  38.89% |
| 8    | Tauros                  |    9 |   1.09% |  44.44% |
| 8    | Exeggutor               |    9 |   1.09% |  33.33% |
| 10   | Snorlax                 |    3 |   0.36% |  33.33% |
| 11   | Porygon                 |    1 |   0.12% | 100.00% |
| 11   | Golem                   |    1 |   0.12% |   0.00% |

Extra stuff

Moves and Teammates: https://pokepast.es/245228696d77741e
Combos: https://pokepast.es/a291ab359a8071af

Some notes:

• The chanseyless trend seems to be continuing, with Chansey at a (relatively) low 81%
• Exeggutor is back at #4 in usage, which seems to prove that shifting it above Starmie was the right choice.
• Jolteon has 8% less usage than the next pokemon above it, Cloyster, continuing the trend of it being the OU mon with the least usage by far. Is a drop inevitable?
• The lead meta is dominated by the top 4 leads by usage, but Zapdos has managed to sneak it's way above Jolteon as the most common Electric-type lead.

Excited to see how these trends develop during RBYPL as well. It's likely that nothing crazy will happen, but RBYPL is a great environment for off-meta strategies to shine. Maybe something will stick, who knows?

 

[idkyyy]

So I could be wrong but
"Jank" - 43 uses for 22 wins for a 51% win rate
Defining jank as anything with less uses than Dragonite, since Dragonite has a clear niche (wrap)

Which would make picking a "surprise" pokemon as having the 4th highest win rate (behind Starmie, Jynx, Victreebel and Golem)

If I'm looking at this right anyway

 

[Eeveeto]

So I could be wrong but
"Jank" - 43 uses for 22 wins for a 51% win rate
Defining jank as anything with less uses than Dragonite, since Dragonite has a clear niche (wrap)

Which would make picking a "surprise" pokemon as having the 4th highest win rate (behind Starmie, Jynx, Victreebel and Golem)

If I'm looking at this right anyway

Not exactly, since you can use more than one junk Mon. For example, this year I got eliminated early, but before that, won a battle with Nidoqueen and Omastar on the same team (in fact, I won 2 battles with that team, but first time didn't get to reveal Nidoqueen, hence only 1 appears on the usage Stats).

The other thing by which the theory of using "jank" Mons = good strat is not fully valid is because often few people dare to do it. At this point, 95% of people who play RBY Cup have some basic RBY knowledge which ironically makes newer RBY players just steal and use known good Mons, while the ones who actually use "jank" Mons are a smaller group of people who do it knowing that the Mons are not always optimal, but make a team around them regardless. They know how to use said team but give the same team to any other player, even one of overall higher level, and they will likely lose the battle if they dont practice the team prior to it.

Don't let this stop you from trying lower Mons, there are much more than 12 viable Mons in RBY (in fact, I think there are only about 10-15 fully evolved Mons that are unviable), you just have to find the way of making them work and choosing the right partners, which is often hard and takes time.

 

[Soda_Eesti]

So I could be wrong but
"Jank" - 43 uses for 22 wins for a 51% win rate
Defining jank as anything with less uses than Dragonite, since Dragonite has a clear niche (wrap)

Which would make picking a "surprise" pokemon as having the 4th highest win rate (behind Starmie, Jynx, Victreebel and Golem)

If I'm looking at this right anyway

Persian Hypno Porygon Dragonair arent jank by any reasonable definition not based on usage stats btw. Using a definition as rigid as this is just looking down on good pokemon.
The thing thats sad is that a lot of people have a mindset like this where they feel the need to "Define Jank" which just writes off so many good pokemon (like the ones above, or even stuff like sandslash)
Also it is (for the most part) the good or mid level players feeling the need to bring jank as newer players just load samples or teams they nabbed from smogon forums. It doesnt suprise me that Mid level players and above are able to nab a win or two with a "jank mon"

But also like whats said above, yeah a lot of worse mons are still very usable and if you want to you should. But note that the list of what you should use with reason is way smaller.

 

[Fighting Jellyfish]

how do you guys work around rhydon when you're using zap? I feel like that's the worst possible matchup.

 

[Eeveeto]

how do you guys work around rhydon when you're using zap? I feel like that's the worst possible matchup.

I am a Zap hater, but it's not really different from when you use Jolteon (the best electric for me).
You simply don't leave the house without an Exeggutor, preferably Rest version.
You don't use Reflect Chansey (Rhydon fodder) and use Ice Beam instead.
You either drop Snorlax or use Ice Beam, EQ one. Using Zap, Jolt or Electrode is the only justified reason for Surf Lax, and under no circumstance you use a Mononormal Lax.
If you use Gengar (most of the time you shouldn't), Mega Drain is a good idea.
If you use Zam, you don't let it take para.
One Water type minimum (Starmie, but also Cloy or Bro) is a good idea.

Basically all your Non Zap Mons should be able to deal big damage to Rhydon, with lures being recommended and at least 2 Mons needing to be reliable switch-ins, Egg being one of them.
I am a Jolteon believer, but what works for Jolt, most of the time works for Zap.