OU RBY OU Discussion Thread

[Party B0y]

This means that we've created a mechanic that simply doesn't exist in the original game, so for someone seeking to play RBY, they can reasonably assume that they wouldn't have to encounter these restrictions, and when they do it will be especially egregious.

Click to collapse...

I've seen new players repeatedly attempt to put pokemon to sleep, not understanding that the sleep mod prevents them from doing this. The learning curve for RBY is so steep I doubt any new player gets what they're expecting. Learning RBY isn't just about learning the mechanics, it includes learning about the mods/clauses etc.

I would say that picking these moves to dodge boom is beyond esoteric and I would argue a waste of a moveslot (it's a cool idea too, just not worth it in practice imo)

Click to collapse...

You could argue that Sing/Counter are a waste of a moveslot - once your opponent knows it's there. And there are plenty of pokemon who have a moveslot free.

Additional coverage also means little if it never actually hits a target that is substantially harmed by it, which one would expect to be the case the majority of the time given their multi-turn nature.

Click to collapse...

You don't need to hit your target, often the objective is to force it out. I'm sure you don't let Tauros bash your Chansey, but it still chips away at whatever switches in.

I've been thinking about when I'd use these moves in OU:

• Slowbro often gets boomed on, and Dig also lets him hurt a Jolteon switch in. He could use it instead of Thunder Wave.
• Egg often booms on Arcanine, Ninetales, Moltres, Articuno, Charizard, Zapdos. Dig/Fly could be used over one of their less important moves.
• A pressured Snorlax would boom on Primeape or Machamp.
• Cloyster may try and boom on Blastoise, Raichu, Zapdos.
• A powered up Golduck could bait a pokemon into exploding.
• Pokemon that are walled by Gengar can now significantly damage it (Parasect, Primeape, Ratiacte).
• Pokemon weak to Rhydon can now inflict more damage to it (Arcanine, Ninetales).
• Flying types without drill peck gain a substantial stab move that doesn't make them vulnerable (first turn charging via sky attack).

I hope this gives you food for thought.

Community voted how it voted dude... Not much that staff can do to magic that away.

Click to collapse...

How exactly does the community vote on things? Ultimately I think there should be a vote on dig/fly. I'll accept the consensus, I just think both sides need to be heard.

 

[Enigami]

I've been thinking about when I'd use these moves in OU:

• Slowbro often gets boomed on, and Dig also lets him hurt a Jolteon switch in. He could use it instead of Thunder Wave.
• Egg often booms on Arcanine, Ninetales, Moltres, Articuno, Charizard, Zapdos. Dig/Fly could be used over one of their less important moves.
• A pressured Snorlax would boom on Primeape or Machamp.
• Cloyster may try and boom on Blastoise, Raichu, Zapdos.
• A powered up Golduck could bait a pokemon into exploding.
• Pokemon that are walled by Gengar can now significantly damage it (Parasect, Primeape, Ratiacte).
• Pokemon weak to Rhydon can now inflict more damage to it (Arcanine, Ninetales).
• Flying types without drill peck gain a substantial stab move that doesn't make them vulnerable (first turn charging via sky attack).

Click to collapse...

• Slowbro has no room for Dig, its four move slots are way too important to sacrifice for a move with a very specific use case. Slowbro is too slow to make effective use of Dig, and it can't fit Thunder Wave and Dig on an Amnesia set which means it requires the rest of the team to support it. Dig vs. Jolteon is also mostly irrelevant, +2 Surf does as much damage as Dig and Amnesia boosts increases Jolteon's # of hits to KO Slowbro.
• Egg is usually switching out of those mons, and Arcanine, Ninetales and Charizard are awful in OU and irrelevant. Moltres has absolutely no room nor reason to use Fly when it could use Fire Spin if it suspects a boom. Zapdos already has a locked set of Thunderbolt, Drill Peck, Thunder Wave and Agility, and Fly is completely useless outside of a perfectly predicted Explosion. Articuno is the only one in the list that can afford to spend a slot on a super niche move, and it isn't doing any more damage than Double-Edge which is mediocre already.
• Snorlax booming on Primeape or Machamp is still a win for the Primeape or Machamp player. Also, both are bad and irrelevant in OU, and commonly run Low Kick which can flinch Snorlax AND do significant damage at the same time to prevent a boom instead of gambling on Dig dodging a Selfdestruct.
• Zapdos doesn't care that Cloyster might try to boom on it, Zapdos can outright KO it with Thunderbolt. Blastoise and Raichu are awful in OU and irrelevant.
• Golduck is bad in OU, though not unviable and at the very least it is fast enough to move first against all the common boomers. Its move slots would still be better served running actually viable moves though.
• Parasect, Raticate and Primeape are bad and irrelevant in OU, and are all slower than Gengar. Gengar not only gets to switch out to a resist safely, but also gets a turn to attack them before needing to do so.
• Ninetales would rather use Fire Spin to switch out from the horrid matchup with Rhydon or try to burn/poison Rhydon and abuse Fire Spin to kill it. Arcanine is bad and irrelevant in OU. Dig does far too little damage for Rhydon to care, it simply can stay in and hammer Ninetales and Arcanine with Earthquake when they complete Dig.
• No Flying-type in OU that doesn't have Drill Peck wants or needs Fly except Pidgeot, which is bad and irrelevant in OU.

OU is a very very bad metagame to try to argue for Dig and Fly's viability. NU and possibly Ubers, UU and PU, however, is a different story.

In NU, Arcanine would absolutely love Dig to hit Kabutops and Nidoking for possible 2HKOs, and Primeape would love threatening a OHKO on Gastly and not having all of its coverage resisted by Nidoking. Ninetales also might not mind having Dig to maim Kabutops for Fire Spam teams.

In Ubers, Mews exploding on Mews is very common, not to mention exploding in general, so I could maybe see Dig replacing Earthquake on certain Mew sets as a way to dodge the boom from opposing Mew while still having coverage for Gengar and Rocks.

In UU, Raticate could use Dig to dodge attacks from Haunter and force it out or take massive damage.

In what might become PU, Pidgeot could use it to dodge a move from Gastly/Vileplume/Parasect and force big damage on them if they don't switch out and could rack up extra Poison damage on a toxic'd Rock to help Scyther sweep later on, Primeape could use it to inflict heavier damage on Nidoqueen and possibly scare it out and threatening Gastly with an outright OHKO, and Parasect would also be able to threaten Gastly with a OHKO while also having a good move to scare out paralyzed Fires with.

 

[Party B0y]

A few examples of successful unorthodox ideas:

:Porygon:
Porygon
Porygon can be used to wall an opposing snorlax by switching in to body slam and using recover. Recover has more PP than Body Slam meaning Lax will have to either switch out or use something else - giving Pory a chance to use T Wave, Ice Beam or another attack.

:Gengar:
Counter Gengar
If Gengar has counter he can switch into a pokemon who has just killed the previous mon with a physical attack, but lacks an attack that will hurt Gengar (i.e. Snorlax with only Body slam/Hyper Beam), forcing the pokemon to switch - counter will then inflict damage on the switch in. This also works if a pokemon uses explosion to kill Chancey and Gengar can force the next mon out.

The ideas above aren't mine and are quite well known. I have lots of my own ideas which I hope to share in the future :)

 

[Ortheore]

What are people's thoughts on Persian rising in the near future? I've been fucking around on the ladder lately and I'm finding Persian is an absolute menace. It absolutely feasts on ReflectLax, and unless you've got a Gengar in reserve it's going to deal a ton of damage. Sure it's frail, but some of the notable top pokemon usually don't run sets capable of 2HKOing it (e.g. Chans, Lax without HBeam, Star needs HPump or luck from Psychic)

 

[Prof_J]

What are people's thoughts on Persian rising in the near future? I've been fucking around on the ladder lately and I'm finding Persian is an absolute menace.

Click to collapse...

Persian can be a menace, if a team is sufficiently softened. I don't think it will rise, and if it does, it can't be by more than one spot. Its power outside of Slash is too much of a letdown. I sometimes like using it to exert pressure on more fringe, "hyper offense" builds, where I'm playing it as a more expendable Tauros (to make way for actual Tauros), but that's about it.
With the current state of the ladder right now, you can win with just about anything as well. I'm kicking butt with Poliwrath and some kid got to top 5 last month with an awful swords dance Charizard team...

It absolutely feasts on ReflectLax, and unless you've got a Gengar in reserve it's going to deal a ton of damage. Sure it's frail, but some of the notable top pokemon usually don't run sets capable of 2HKOing it (e.g. Chans, Lax without HBeam, Star needs HPump or luck from Psychic)

Click to collapse...

Persian Slash vs. Snorlax on a critical hit: 154-181 (29.4 - 34.6%) -- 6.5% chance to 3HKO
Do you mean to say that Persian wins the 1v1? In practice, very rarely. Snorlax can usually keep resting right in front of it.
Starmie not 2HKOing Persian isn't that big a deal for Starmie. You can come in on a Slash and chase it out since: both speed tie, a normal Hyper Beam won't kill Starmie after Slash, and there's no Body Slam (usually) to fish for para. Persian is still dealing meaty damage, I'm just saying that Starmie missing out on the 2HKO isn't an issue for it.

EDIT: I didn't realize you may have just simply been stating that few things 2HKO it, without implying anything further. In that case, yes, nothing to debate there.

 

[gastlies]

Persian Slash vs. Snorlax on a critical hit: 154-181 (29.4 - 34.6%) -- 6.5% chance to 3HKO
Do you mean to say that Persian wins the 1v1? In practice, very rarely. Snorlax can usually keep resting right in front of it.

Click to collapse...

Persian will have more than one chance to try to 3HKO Snorlax. Let's say Persian uses 27 slashes against Snorlax in total, meaning it went for the 3HKO 9 times and still has 5 slashes left over for Lax's teammates. Persian has a 45.3% chance to have 3HKOed Lax in this scenario, which is arguably worth going for. In addition, Persian can just switch into a special attacker on the turn Snorlax is forced to Rest, which generates free momentum for its team.

 

[Amaranth]

Quick note on Persian v Lax, Persian can also body slam on the forced rest turn if it runs it, crit kills. snorlax can't really not rest, the odds skyrocket. between this and mie par chance i think it's the best 4th available, though others have merits

 

[Fawfulmk-II]

OK So I tried something a lil' different: a viability ranking on some OU leads. Still on the inexperienced side a bit here so any 2 pennies from more seasoned types would be appreciated.

Now for reasons:
Alakazam: probably the most well rounded lead in the game, High speed+ super high Special makes it intimidating as Hell, has Seismic Toss to get out of sticky situations, solid matchups against pretty much ever lead except for Star and Egg

Starmie: Super versatile, Blizzard proof, great Speed, has the moveset versatility Zam only could have in tradebacks, only hampered by slight 4MSS.

Jynx: queen of Nintendo Cup who still is good here even with R/G Blizz. Best overall sleeper IMO who can threaten anything with STAB Psychic AND Blizzard. Only held back by being kinda squishy and a bit slower than other common leads.

Exeggutor: slowest lead in the game, but so slow it has soft Para resistance making it a boon. Absurd well rounded bulk, having the ability to run a Twinpowder build and being the best Boomer of all leads, and 2nd best in OU behind Snorlax makes it a big deal. Having a weakness to the ultra common Blizzard and Ice Beam stings though.

Jolteon: fast as Drokk, solid matchups against many other leads due things like STAB Thunderbolt or even Pin Missile in a pinch, has options for reading switches into Chansey or Rhylem. It HATES being paralyzed though.

Gengar: fastest sleeper in the game, Normal immunity(except to Super Fang hahaha) is amaziing, can go Boom when it's work is done. Has the 2nd least accurate Sleep move in the tier though(only behind Sing Chansey variants), and Psychic weakness means it has to play more carefully than other leads.

Zapdos: an interesting option for an Aggro Lead(who I think is used moreso in Ubers?) Who can negate Paralysis and has Drill Peck to provide Physical STAB that can punch through the majority of Leads and even hits Super Effective on the tankiest one as a bonus. Eating Blizzard sucks though and having no answers to a Rhylem swswitch-inold it back.

Venusaur: the lead that could have been. Fair bulk, solid Sleeper, always critting Razor Leaf, Body Slam for more fragile leads...held back by having weaknesses to all the common Types of the Tier.

Tauros: another Aggro Lead possibility who can threaten with power and presence, but it's value for the late game is probably too much to game on a risk of status.

Electrode: Fastest mon in the game, could Para, has a weak Boom....and that's pretty much it.

 

[Ortheore]

I personally don't consider Venu, Tauros or Electrode to be viable lead options. Tauros I don't think should be doing anything besides sweeping. Venusaur's typing effectively rules it out as a lead. Electrode is just garbage (maybe something like Tbolt/TW/Screech/Boom could be a usable gimmick?).

I also am not a fan of putting Zap alongside Gengar. I know Gengar's value as a lead has plummeted, but I think it still holds some value as an anti-Jynx lead, or if you really want to run a Ghost but can't fit it anywhere else on the team. Zap I see as more of a gimmick thanks to its Ice weakness and speed tier, not to mention Jolteon existing and being better suited for the role.

If we're looking at gimmicky leads, I like Hypno and Clefable. Chansey and Snorlax can theoretically lead, but I'm not a fan of it- they're so valuable it's unlikely that you're willing to sac them to sleep (not inconceivable though) but I loathe the loss of momentum switching out of sleep leads. I also think I've lead Flareon in the past, and though it's not amazing in that role, it can work

Otherwise it's a fairly solid list

 

[Plague von Karma]

I think Amaranth posted his stuff in this thread before so I will simply pretend I can do it for non-tournament stuff

I did a video compiling some obscure history about Persian's stint in OU up until 2016. Thanks to the various community members who helped fact check my script a few months back, and sorry for not getting around to sorting it until recently, haha.

It's quite short - that's how my series works, although I try to make it hit 4-5 minutes - and it's also my first time editing myself, so it's a bit wacky. Regardless, I hope you all enjoy!

 

[Volk]

I feel like making a quick post about Pokemon but I don't want to reveal my thoughts on UU in the middle of a tournament. So instead, I will bother the RBY OU Community. I don't feel like composing a whole VR right now because that takes a while and it won't be counted anyway. I'll just hit a few talking points that I think are interesting. If you want to disagree with me (or just dunk on me), go ahead. I haven't even laddered recently, let alone played in a serious tournament, so my thoughts could totally be outdated or just wrong.

:Chansey: Chansey :Chansey:
I've brought up this point over a year ago and I'm going to bring it up again. I'm really not sure how someone can seriously place Chansey in a rank not alongside Tauros and Snorlax. While there is a small handful of hyper offense teams that forgo Chansey that you can dominate ladder with, I don't think I've seen a single serious match in a tournament where both players don't bring Chansey. Chansey really isn't any more or less droppable than Tauros or Snorlax so I don't really get the logic in ranking it somewhere else. These three Pokemon all have pretty much maxed out usage stats, so I really don't get it. Aside from the very very very slight drop in usage (if there even is such a thing), the only other possibility is the effect each Pokemon has on the game, but I doubt I need to explain to anyone here how impactful Chansey is on a typical RBY match.
Aside from that little rant, I just want to argue for a minute that Sing Chansey is a bit overrated. I'm always a bit biased here because Sing seems to have about a 15% accuracy when I use it, but I have other issues. I think most Sing Chansey variants (especially stuff like Triple OHKO) are really passive and very easy to exploit. Psychic-type Pokemon (Exeggutor, Starmie, Alakazam, and Jynx) all seem to be very popular right now and I think taking advantage of this trend means running more Ice Beam and Thunderbolt and less Sing. Cloyster, while a bit less popular right now, is also a very big issue for most Sing Chansey. There is obviously still room for SIng Chansey and it is a very good set, but I think it isn't as powerful as its popularity would imply.

:Alakazam: :Starmie: Psychic-type Pokemon :Exeggutor: :Jynx:
For a while I've been considering the possibility that Alakazam might be the fourth best Pokemon in RBY OU. After a fair amount of thought, I've finally settled on, yes, Alakazam is #4 in RBY OU right now. However, it seems this take is not nearly as hot as I thought it was. While I think most people are still on team Starmie, it's not really that hard to find players in the Alakazam camp. While I think I agree that Starmie is more versatile and probably easier to put on teams in a general sense, Alakazam is just so good in this meta. Starmie and Sing Chansey being everywhere is insanely good for Alakazam as it can pretty much just muscle through these Pokemon with patience and a little luck. The way people play Chansey nowadays (usually having it eat paralysis immediately) is very conducive to how Alakazam typically strives to break through it. Exeggutor is still fairly unpopular (though it seems to be regaining some ground) which is another great prospect for Alakazam. I'm honestly surprised I don't see it more often. This all being said, I still think it is more or less a tossup between Starmie, Alakazam, and Exeggutor for #4. They are all really good.
Lastly, a note about Jynx. When I see Jynx get brought up, I usually see someone claim that while it may have a very strong and consistent sleep, it really isn't a big deal because it is basically half a Pokemon. Is this still the sentiment among top players? Because I really don't think it is true at all. Jynx is a very solid option against the most popular Chansey sets and has been enjoying Exeggutor resurging a bit. It's pretty easy to get significant mileage out of Jynx both offensively (early wakes, freezes, etc.) and defensively (using Rest is hard but not that hard) throughout a game. Especially considering its popularity (#7 on the SPL usage stats), I think we need to seriously evaluate Jynx as a possible contender for the next best Pokemon after the Big Three Psychics. And one last thing, back Jynx is very underrated. At least on ladder, turn 1 Chansey switches are absurdly common so snatching a huge tempo completely for free is ridiculously easy with Jynx in the back.

:Zapdos: Legendary Bird Discourse™ :Articuno: :Moltres:
Now, I'll be the first to admit that win rate is a very heavily flawed statistic and you really should not take it seriously. However, I must say that 38.46% win rate in SPL definitely caught my attention. It was the kind of confirmation I needed for my very long-held belief that Zapdos is kind of not that great. Now, I'll admit, I'm incredibly biased. I use Rhydon and Jolten a lot so the idea of struggling against Zapdos is a little foreign to me. For me, I find Zapdos very easy to dispatch and a pretty major liability in a lot of games. The Pokemon that handle Zapdos well are just way too common and strong for me to feel comfortable treating it as a serious contender for the #7 slot. I think it is much easier to boot up a team with Jynx, Rhydon, Cloyster, and possibly Jolteon and feel comfortable that you can win. I also don't think its good matchups are always worth it either. A competent player can still outmaneuver a Zapdos without having a dedicated check like Rhydon, Golem, or Jolteon. Obviously I don't think Zapdos is a bad Pokemon by any means, but I am personally more comfortable putting it closer to #10 than #7.
Now for the other two. I read through Troller's post on Moltres and it made me realize something, and I don't think that something was Troller's goal. That something is that Articuno is really not very good in RBY OU. Like seriously, this Pokemon has so little to do in the current meta. Chansey, Starmie, and Cloyster being everywhere prevent Articuno from finding a home on pretty much any team. I think Articuno is falling into the same pit Lapras did last year, but I honestly think Articuno's case is significantly worse because Lapras can at least salvage some viability with Thunderbolt and some of the other stuff in its kit. Forget Moltres, I honestly think Lapras, Dragonite, and Victreebel are all probably better than Articuno right now.
Anyway, I still largely dislike Moltres. My issue isn't really that Fire Spin is bad, it is just frustrating to rely on options like Fire Blast for damage when they miss as often as they do. I don't like committing to a Pokemon that has trouble dealing damage even in good matchups (*cough* Victreebel *cough*). That said, I think I was probably a bit too harsh on Moltres overall. I think Troller put it really well in his post. Moltres doesn't welcome in really strong attackers (unlike Zapdos) and can actually handle most of the meta-relevant Pokemon (unlike Articuno). I don't personally see Moltres as a B Rank choice, but C seems reasonable. The usage has to be at least in striking distance of Slowbro for me to be convinced otherwise.

:Persian: :Kangaskhan: Some Others :Kabutops: :Sandslash:
Now for some thoughts on Pokemon that don't really matter. I feel like Persian is in an incredibly weird spot in the meta. Everyone seems to tacitly agree that Persian is good (myself included), but virtually no one ever uses it. I have seen so much information about Pokemon of comparable strength (Articuno, Moltres, Golem, Dragonite, Victreebel, etc.) and almost nothing on Persian. No replays, no theory, nothing. Like genuinely, is there anything anyone wants to say about this Pokemon? And just to add to the nebulousness, I'm going to throw in Kangaskhan as well. I think Kangaskhan is actually pretty solid, but I'm not going to provide any evidence.
Kabutops seems neat right now. I seldom dip this low in the VR when building a team, but the meta actually seems pretty okay for it right now (well, as good as it can get for a Pokemon as good as Kabutops). Sandslash is another Pokemon I want to bring some attention to, as it wasn't used at all in SPL. I don't think the current meta is particularly good or bad for Sandslash, I just think it is a decent Pokemon. Maybe it can abuse teams that rely heavily on Rhydon and don't use Exeggutor or something, I don't know.

Maybe I'll add some more thoughts in later. I'll need to reread this and edit later, as I'm sure it's messy. As I said, feel free to respond if you want. I more want to open conversations that I think are interesting than actively convince someone they are right or wrong here. Cheers!

 

[marcoasd]

:Chansey: Chansey :Chansey:


:Alakazam: :Starmie: Psychic-type Pokemon :Exeggutor: :Jynx:


:Zapdos: Legendary Bird Discourse™ :Articuno: :Moltres:


:Persian: :Kangaskhan: Some Others :Kabutops: :Sandslash:

Click to collapse...

Interesting stuff, I'll answer.

Yes, Chansey clearly is S rank. General consensus puts it as number three for the same reason some drop it to a lower rank: not only it doesn't win you games (read sweep), it hardly gets KOs.
It can score freezes, paralysis and possibly sleep, but the gaze rarely is satisfied enough by those I guess. It's like players who play defense (or who just don't score) in team sports.
Sing is good because Chansey is the only sleeper that doesn't really care about getting TWaved, and missing doesn't punish you; it also allows you to drop Jynx and Exeggutor from your teams.
I agree that Thunderbolt is underrated right now though.

:Alakazam: :Starmie: :Exeggutor: :Jynx:

It looks like Starmie/Alakazam/Exeggutor is the order right now. Starmie is bulkier and does way more things, shining against Snorlax, Tauros and Rhydon. Not only that, Starmie helps you a lot against Amnesialax and Slowbro. It lives Exeggutor's and Cloyster's booms, and it walls them.
A para'd Alakazam has a hard time switching into unstatused, unresisted STAB attacks and it gets humiliated by Hyper Beam; Starmie is helped by its Water-typing. Starmie also benefits greatly from Thunderbolt being rare.
A lot of games come down to Tauros and physical attacks, and at that point Starmie is at least an obstacle while on the other hand Alakazam isn't and these things are not going to change.
Alakazam beating Chansey, Starmie and being a threat for anything which is para'd is good enough for ranking it ahead of former S4 member Exeggutor (which is still good by the way), not Starmie.

Yes, Jynx looks very good right now.

:Zapdos: :Articuno: :Moltres:

Not sure about Zapdos, I should watch SPL games more carefully to understand why it performed so poorly. Zapdos is good but it needs some plays to work and in certain games you're just doomed because you're playing 5 against 6 and you get slept and frozen so...
I'm not sure Cloyster is everywhere, sure it's not rare but it doesn't look like it was that common either in this SPL.

Articuno's special stat is way higher than Lapras' and it also has higher speed, which doesn't hurt, and Agility. To put it short: it clearly is a sweeper, Lapras has more tools but Articuno has a role.
The most important thing to understand about Moltres and Articuno is what they bring to the table: they 2HKO Tauros. Other than dealing with RestLax, doing some good damage to Chansey/Zam and learning Agility, they can beat Tauros and close the game soon after. And they don't care about TBolt Tauros.
My point is that these are the few reasons to use Articuno over Cloyster, which is even more similar to Moltres (Clamp/Fire Spin and HB).
So, if the question is: "Are Lapras, Dragonite, and Victreebel better than birds?", I would say no.
Are birds more outclassed (by Cloyster) than Lapras, Dragonite, and Victreebel are (by anything you please)? Maybe. It depends on how people use Cloyster. It looks like it's getting used mostly as a defensive pivot/autoswitch into RestLax. So, no Hyper Beam. But it could be a good sweeper too.

:Persian: :Kangaskhan: :Kabutops: :Sandslash:

Persian sucks against Counter Chansey and Gengar, which is quite common recently because it trolls ReflectHB Snorlax.
It's hard to fit Persian into a team because its role is already taken by Tauros and you don't want to drop Snorlax or Chansey.
To top it off, its matchup chart is pretty awful. Most profitable trait is that it isn't fun to switch into it, which makes it very good at pressuring RestLax even though actually KO'ing it is a bit complicated.
Being a lesser Tauros is also the reason why Kangaskhan is lackluster. Only tool it has is Counter, and it's a called shot...
So the main issue they have is that they need some teambuilding to work. Persian looks better in a conventional build because
it can somewhat pressure Reflect Snorlax so it has a role; on the other hand I think Kangaskhan could shine more in a hyper offensive build where you hardly switch out. Body Slam is cool.

Swords dancers can win games but they obviously aren't consistent. Kabutops is arguably the best and it can get scary. It's very likely that you already knew these things, so we'd better ask people who are more into Swords Dance!

 

[Amaranth]

I looked at Kabutops during SPL with some kind of Substitute / Slash / Surf / Rest type of set to wall Cloysters, mono-ice Chanseys, and just generally be annoying. I then realized it was just worse than Cloyster in most situations. SD+HB is a fun niche, but the moveslot cost means it can't really stick around to use its actually decent defensive qualities much. It's more viable than a lot of garbage in the lower ranks, but still not very viable

 

[Hipmonlee]

Tip for kabutops use:
Just click slash.

SD is there for Counter cover and breaking lax/cloy rest loops. Otherwise, just slash. You have all the resilience you'll ever need.

[edit] - I mean you dont have all the resilience you'll ever need, that's why it's not an S rank, but rest isnt giving you much.

 

[marcoasd]

Kabutops is a sweeper, a game closer to be clear. Slash works fine in case it can come in for free, but it's looking to win the game.
There are similar options like Kingler or Pinsir, but Kabutops has more chances to last longer thanks to its typing.
Still, don't let this fool you into believing it's a defensive pokemon: it's a Swords Dancer.

Sandslash, for example, can't do that because it's 2HKO'd by Tauros, let alone a CH Blizzard, and its stats are just worse. It's trying to look like a bit of Kabutops and a bit of Rhydon, failing poorly at both.

 

[Hipmonlee]

I genuinely disagree. Kabutops is not a particularly good sweeper at all.

What it does really well is uses its resistances to switch in comfortably, and, aside from Gengar and unpar Starmie, nothing can switch safely into it.

It's basically a more offensive Cloyster. It's better against mono normal lax, weaker against quake lax and rhydon. But, it cannot be walled by Alakazam, Chansey or paralysed Starmie.

Here's some use in tours, wcop game with nails and I think one of those end of circuit tours with ranshiin.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-443115
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-469390-2g5veysl22hdxoapypbifpfdagcjikapw

And I've attached a recent ladder game where I use Kabutops about as stupidly as possible because that is how crusty I am, and it still tears my opponent to pieces.

Apparently I cant attach html files, so I renamed it to txt. If you want to view it just rename it to *.html and open it in a browser. Or just read the text log part.

 

[marcoasd]

I genuinely disagree. Kabutops is not a particularly good sweeper at all.

What it does really well is uses its resistances to switch in comfortably, and, aside from Gengar and unpar Starmie, nothing can switch safely into it.

It's basically a more offensive Cloyster. It's better against mono normal lax, weaker against quake lax and rhydon. But, it cannot be walled by Alakazam, Chansey or paralysed Starmie.

Here's some use in tours, wcop game with nails and I think one of those end of circuit tours with ranshiin.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-443115
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-469390-2g5veysl22hdxoapypbifpfdagcjikapw

And I've attached a recent ladder game where I use Kabutops about as stupidly as possible because that is how crusty I am, and it still tears my opponent to pieces.

Apparently I cant attach html files, so I renamed it to txt. If you want to view it just rename it to *.html and open it in a browser. Or just read the text log part.

Click to collapse...

Cloyster uses special attacks, Kabutops is using Slash or HB which are physical attacks; Cloyster has Rest and Explosion, Kabutops doesn't. You're the one who is using it, I have to give you that, but honestly I don't get it.

If anything, these two replays prove my points. They aren't about Kabutops, you won for different reasons.

Vs Nails you used it as a Rest abuser, which it can definitely be, but Persian does that better and at least it can 2HKO Chansey.

Vs Ranshiin, he just shot himself on the foot trying to save 7% Chansey so yeah... Kabutops didn't shine anyway, even with a FP on Chansey and that shows you how perfectible of a midgame threat it is. Finally, switching into a Body Slam put Kabutops just into 2HKO (Tauros' Earthquake), which shows that it needs to stay fresh because it is mostly a sweeper.

 

[Hipmonlee]

Are you saying Kabutops taking out reflect Chansey from 100 is not Kabutops shining? Sure, if he had sac'd chansey, it wouldnt have also taken out Snorlax---but then your fp argument kinda falls apart right? Something had to come into that slash... Which comes back to my point, if you dick around with swords dance while Chansey Twaves then its all prediction to do any damage at all without Vic switching in. With slash you dont need to predict, you just always click slash, it always does damage.

In the first game, Kabutops cripples Tauros and then keeps all the rest users in check. Persian could have done this specific case better its true, but, it is a Kabutops, its not an A tier mon. I dont expect it to always be the ideal mon for every situation. It's also partly because I got greedy and went for the trade with Tauros. I was pretty conflicted about that call, but it seemed very hard to justify turning down the opportunity to trade a Kabutops for a Tauros. In hindsight it was the wrong line.

Some other advantages of Kabutops over Persian:
Trivially forcing Mono normal lax to rest, absorbing Hyperbeams/explosions, SD makes it less fucked by counter, ice resistance means it can switch in much more easily, hilarious Moltres matchup, OHKOs Rhydon, slightly better SDef for Eggy/Zam psychics.

 

[marcoasd]

Are you saying Kabutops taking out reflect Chansey from 100 is not Kabutops shining? Sure, if he had sac'd chansey, it wouldnt have also taken out Snorlax---but then your fp argument kinda falls apart right? Something had to come into that slash... Which comes back to my point, if you dick around with swords dance while Chansey Twaves then its all prediction to do any damage at all without Vic switching in. With slash you dont need to predict, you just always click slash, it always does damage.

In the first game, Kabutops cripples Tauros and then keeps all the rest users in check. Persian could have done this specific case better its true, but, it is a Kabutops, its not an A tier mon. I dont expect it to always be the ideal mon for every situation. It's also partly because I got greedy and went for the trade with Tauros. I was pretty conflicted about that call, but it seemed very hard to justify turning down the opportunity to trade a Kabutops for a Tauros. In hindsight it was the wrong line.

Some other advantages of Kabutops over Persian:
Trivially forcing Mono normal lax to rest, absorbing Hyperbeams/explosions, SD makes it less fucked by counter, ice resistance means it can switch in much more easily, hilarious Moltres matchup, OHKOs Rhydon, slightly better SDef for Eggy/Zam psychics.

Click to collapse...

If Chansey doesn't FP, it TWaves Kabutops and it can switch out at 53%. Rhydon coming in possibly, or Victreebel can force it out after a sacrifice.

Persian isn't A tier either. I just have higher expectations from Kabutops given it has a higher ceiling with SD, I actually like it a lot.
Both Persian and Kabutops lose 1v1 to Tauros, but if you can force a Tauros ditto then Kabutops can sweep an entire team with +2 HB.
Persian can't.

You played these matchups correctly in terms of strategy, showing that Kabutops is versatile and like you said it is way more versatile than Persian both offensively and defensively: these games were not eligible for Swords Dance. Mistakes can happen and you still win: switching Kabutops into Tauros instead of sacrificing Snorlax was one indeed.
Kabutops did what was necessary for you to win without overdoing. It can use Slash with success against Rest and Reflect which is a relevant part of its game that I had already mentioned. This doesn't mean it plays like Cloyster defensively, nor that forcing the Kabutops vs Chansey matchup early is a good idea.

 

[Hipmonlee]

What line are you looking at for the lax sac?

The point was to get Tauros into KO range of zam, I have to hit it twice to do that. If I sac Lax, then mie comes in and if I just attack I only hit it once before it KOs me. This way I know whether or not my kabutops FPs or gets crit or crits when I bring in Starmie, so I know whether I have to try to twave and recover or just take the damage. Or, potentially I can save Starmie completely and attack Rhydon with it. Snorlax could also potentially be a sleep sac depending on how things play out.

 

[marcoasd]

What line are you looking at for the lax sac?

The point was to get Tauros into KO range of zam, I have to hit it twice to do that. If I sac Lax, then mie comes in and if I just attack I only hit it once before it KOs me. This way I know whether or not my kabutops FPs or gets crit or crits when I bring in Starmie, so I know whether I have to try to twave and recover or just take the damage. Or, potentially I can save Starmie completely and attack Rhydon with it. Snorlax could also potentially be a sleep sac depending on how things play out.

Click to collapse...

Turn 64 versus Ranshiin I would sacrifice Snorlax instead of going Kabutops because I give more value to it living Tauros' attacks than I give to having a sleep fodder. If you were worried about Ranshiin going Rhydon on Slash he had the option to do so anyway, which he didn't but it was up to him.
Even there Rhydon had roughly a 50% roll to take 85% Kabutops out, and the Substitute button.
But yeah, it was tricky a tricky game and correct plays aren't well defined. My point was just to highlight that Kabutops' HP are not expendable.

 

[Diva Virtual Miku]

Tauros​

Tauros is a Pokémon with very good attack and speed stats and has access to offensive moves to hit the entire metagame. His STAB Body Slam and STAB Hyper Beam plus his coverage moves in many cases guarantee significant damage output and his high critical hit rate only enhances his offensive prowess. Additionally, Tauros is a difficult Pokémon to respond to with a switch, as physically bulky Pokémon that can switch into Tauros either rely on Rest to stay healthy or are vulnerable to Body Slam's paralysis. While Tauros is a Pokémon that doesn't like to go into attacks, the metagame offers good opportunities to send Tauros out safely. Tauros can enter the field after a Pokémon has been put to sleep by a sleep move or when a sleeping Pokémon tries to wake up. It can also switch in after Jynx has used Rest or after one of her teammates has been killed by an opposing Pokemon with low health. In that context, Tauros can also use Blizzard to kick Rhydon out and surprise-hit a switch with Body Slam. Each of these opportunities allows Tauros to try to land a critical hit, KO an opponent's Counter, force a Pokémon to use Rest, or spread paralysis with Body Slam. This way Tauros can be used to gradually set up an endgame sweep. Tauros can also be used to sweep the opposing team's remnants with STAB Hyper Beam and also to set up an endgame sweep for another Pokemon if you're looking to win the game using a different Pokemon. For being the best tool you can use to try to win a game my rating for Tauros is the highest: S.

 

[100plasticcups]

People who want freeze clause removed, why? Do you really want the meta be be about who freezes half the opponent's team first? I don't get the position at all; why ruin a decent competitive game?

 

[Oiseau Bleu]

I have recently been looking for a way to better exploit the "usage stat". Most players just look at the usage level of a Pokémon and how it changes over time. At best, you see a correlation between the usage of one Pokémon and another. The index of stats is, for me, an incredible source of data but very little used. During my university year, I learned to use many statistical tools that could be used on the index of stats. My first idea is that we could make usage predictions for the next few months. Without the statistical tools that I will use later, predictions are usually made using simple logic.

I then collected all the usage statistics for RBY since December 2014. I put everything into a nice spreadsheet. For the analysis, I only kept the 15 Pokémon present in OU: Alakazam, Chansey, Cloyster, Exeggutor, Gengar, Jolteon, Jynx, Lapras, Rhydon, Slowbro, Snorlax, Starmie, Tauros, Victreebel, and Zapdos. I got predictions for the uses of these Pokémon in two ways. For the first way, I used only autoregressive models (AR), moving-average (MA) model and autoregressive-moving-average model (ARMA). I will not dwell on the methodology. But, you have to know that for each Pokémon, you have to do statistical tests to determine which model between AR, MA and ARMA you have to use. With this method, I can make predictions for as many periods as I want. However, the predictions become more and more doubtful with time. I have made predictions up to December 2022. Here is the model:

In this model, the usage of a Pokémon j depends on the process ARMA(p,q). (btw ARMA(0,q) = MA(q) and ARMA(p,0) = AR(p)). The first step is to determine the values of p and q. Then, we can estimate the equation and make predictions with the estimate equation.

For the second method, in addition to the AR, MA and ARMA models, I add in my prediction the usage of all the other Pokémon in the previous period. Here is the model:

The usage of a Pokémon j depends both on the usage of other pokemons in the previous period and on the ARMA(p,q) process. To estimate this equation, it is necessary to estimate both the ARMA process and the Beta i parameters. Here I can hardly make predictions for more than one period. I also made prediction for all the serie just to see how it concords with observations.

Here is the table of predictions: (click on the picture, idk why it's so ugly here)

Here are some graphs that will allow you to better visualize: (I only made them for these few pokemons because it's super long to do)

Tauros

1st method

2nd method for all the serie

2nd method for may 2022

Chansey

1st method

2nd method for all the serie

2nd method for may 2022

Snorlax

1st method

2nd method for all the serie

2nd method for may 2022

Exeggutor

2nd method for all the serie

2nd method for may 2022

Starmie

1st method

2nd method for all the serie

2nd method for may 2022

Jynx

1st method

2nd method for all the serie

2nd method for may 2022

Because things are well done, the usage of May will be available soon. Then, we will be able to compare the predictions with the reality.

what's the point? for the moment none lol. Maybe it could be used to predict usage per week in big tournaments. Maybe you could adjust your picks depending on predictions, idk. I also think we can use similar tools to predict the usage of a certain pokemon according to these characteristics. This could be useful for CAP formats that use invented pokemons. With this method, you could predict the usage of a CAP pokemon, without having to play it, and thus ensure that the pokemon will not be too strong.

 

[Morkal]

I've been toying around with a somewhat interesting variant of Poliwrath that forgoes Hypnosis entirely and runs Submission + Amnesia (Surf and Blizzard), and it's given me some pretty neat results in OU, thanks to the role compression it provides -

Poliwrath
Ability: No Ability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Serious Nature
- Submission
- Amnesia
- Surf
- Blizzard​

If Poliwrath gets an Amnesia up on a Pokemon that wants to switch out like Rhydon, then Zapdos and several notable OU threats cannot handle it properly, also has the benefit of scaring Chansey. It's somewhat situational tech, but the numbers are quite good, and it can be a mid-late game wincon if you keep it healthy and build a solid team around it - here are some relevant calculations

Assured OHKOs

Poliwrath Surf vs. Rhydon: 524-616 (126.8 - 149.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Rhydon Earthquake vs. Poliwrath: 133-157 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 Poliwrath Blizzard vs. Dragonite: 558-656 (144.9 - 170.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Dragonite Hyper Beam vs. Poliwrath: 137-161 (35.7 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 Poliwrath Surf vs. Aerodactyl: 451-530 (124.2 - 146%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Aerodactyl Hyper Beam vs. Poliwrath: 115-136 (30 - 35.5%) -- 28.1% chance to 3HKO

Assured 2HKOs

+2 Poliwrath Blizzard vs. Zapdos: 236-278 (61.6 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. +2 Poliwrath: 153-180 (39.9 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 Poliwrath Blizzard vs. Exeggutor: 236-278 (60 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Exeggutor Psychic vs. +2 Poliwrath: 144-170 (37.5 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Poliwrath Submission vs. Chansey: 428-504 (60.8 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Chansey Thunderbolt vs. +2 Poliwrath: 90-106 (23.4 - 27.6%) -- 79.8% chance to 4HKO

+2 Poliwrath Surf vs. Jynx: 169-199 (50.7 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Jynx Psychic vs. +2 Poliwrath: 119-140 (31 - 36.5%) -- 66.2% chance to 3HKO

Poliwrath Submission vs. Persian: 216-254 (64.8 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 Poliwrath Surf vs. Persian: 214-252 (64.2 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Persian Slash vs. Poliwrath on a critical hit: 122-144 (31.8 - 37.5%) -- 92.1% chance to 3HKO
Persian Hyper Beam vs. Poliwrath: 133-157 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Persian Thunderbolt vs. +2 Poliwrath: 68-80 (17.7 - 20.8%) -- possible 5HKO

Shakier 2HKO/2HKOs with Chip

+2 Poliwrath Surf vs. Jolteon: 155-183 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 66.7% chance to 2HKO
Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. +2 Poliwrath: 137-162 (35.7 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 Poliwrath Surf vs. Alakazam: 133-157 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- 0.2% chance to 2HKO
Alakazam Psychic vs. +2 Poliwrath: 153-180 (39.9 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 Poliwrath Surf vs. Gengar: 137-162 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- 0.2% chance to 2HKO
Gengar Thunderbolt vs. +2 Poliwrath: 103-122 (26.8 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Gengar Explosion vs. Poliwrath: 194-228 (50.6 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Poliwrath Submission vs. Tauros: 163-192 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 55.6% chance to 2HKO
Tauros Body Slam vs. Poliwrath: 95-112 (24.8 - 29.2%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
Tauros Hyper Beam vs. Poliwrath: 166-196 (43.3 - 51.1%) -- 4.9% chance to 2HKO

Speed Tie 2HKO

+2 Poliwrath Blizzard vs. Victreebel: 279-328 (76.8 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Victreebel Razor Leaf vs. Poliwrath on a critical hit: 292-344 (76.2 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​