Gen 1 RBY OU Viability Ranking - Mark II

I'd like to nominate Arbok to E. By itself, it's trash, but as part of trio of paralysis-inducing wrap users, Arbok can actually be surprisingly effective. You use it alongside Thunder Wave Dragonite and Stun Spore Victreebel. The goal of the trio is to use Wrap to chip and pivot to positive matchups and pressure the opponent to have their faster Pokemon stay in against them, at which point the team tries to cripple the faster Pokemon with paralysis until all enemy Pokemon are slower than the Wrap users. The best case scenario for the Wrap team is a S4 team with a slow 6th like Rhydon or Lapras, which means only the opposing lead needs to be paralyzed (not uncommon to trade paralysis on turn 1) after which only Tauros remains to hold back the Wrap spam, all of which can survive an attack and cripple Tauros. Since the strategy is reliant on overwhelming the opponent with Wrap+Paralysis users, and Arbok is the best contender for the 3rd slot after Dragonite and Victreebel, Arbok finds itself being usable in spite of everything going against it.

I've tested it against high level players, and even won with it in a tournament finals very recently against Lusch bringing Starmie + Alakazam + S4 (6th Zam is probably the worst case scenario for Arbok) and a positive win record so far to show for it. Replay against Lusch:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-988083406

The replay shows how devastating the team can be as long as RNG isn't against it, with me nearly ending the game 6-0 if I had risked Glare against Tauros instead of going for Earthquake to put Tauros in range of Tentacruel's Surf. Things won't always go that well for the team, but the fact that it can and has gone well so decisively in a top level RBY match I think shows that the Para-Wrap spam strategy, of which Arbok is an important part, has merit warranting Arbok a place in E, even once the lesser E ranks get purged.
 
Last edited:

kjdaas

this girl rly slapped some letters together huh
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
Do you think it is a good idea to do a similar thing we did for the high ranked mons for the D-E ranked mons? I can just ask a few people that like to experiment with less viable mons and see how the ranking of the lower ranks would look like.
 
It's worth a shot, though I'm sceptical of how effective that would be. It's just a small subset of players that do experiment with such pokemon, and even then, no-one is likely to cover all of them
 
Good job on this. I have a couple of things I want to call out:
1) Golem is ranked way too low it. It should be roughly equal to Rhydon at A- / B+ tier. I think people prefer using Rhydon lately due to more ppl using team comps where you have more para support but Golem is better in team comps where there is more sleepers and less para support. I think by nature they are roughly equal. I even like Golem better, explosion makes it way more versatile.

2) Vic is ranked way too high. It should be C tier. I love victreebel it's great as a surprise weapon but it has too many flaws compared to all the lower tier OUs. People over estimate wrap, because you have to use it multiple times it's going to miss on switches. You have to be real lucky for it not to miss. Victreebell doesn't have the speed to followup when it misses on a switch and your opponent is faster than you. On top of that vic is weak to ice and psychic the most common special attacks among the OUs AND it cant take physical attacks very well not even earthquake.

3) Not a big fan of using plus minuses for these tiers (as in A+ or A- etc.) it seems alittle redundant.

Those are my main thoughts. Overall it's a pretty good tier list.

This would be my list:

S Tier: Reserved for Pokemon which pose a very significant offensive or defensive threat, consistently harming or walling the opposing team. The roles these Pokemon can fulfill are crucial, if not mandatory, for RBY teams and these Pokemon are the best at their certain roles.
  • :tauros:
  • :chansey:
  • :snorlax:
  • :exeggutor:

A Tier: Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the RBY metagame. These Pokemon pose a signifigant offensive or defensive threat to most teams. If these Pokemon have flaws, they are often outshown by their strengths.
  • :alakazam: -> can go toe to toe with any of the big 4, but limited move pool and pp and very fragile.
  • :starmie: -> can deal with almost any pokemon, but gets zoned by chansey.
  • :zapdos: -> can go toe to toe with each of the big 4, but can't do anything vs rock
  • :lapras: -> can go toe to toe with each of the big 4, but low speed and no para, vulnerable when para'd
B Tier: Reserved for Pokemon who are very good in the RBY metagame, yet are somewhat inconsistent. These Pokemon may have flaws, but they have positive aspects which makes them stand out, making them valuable members of a team.
  • :jynx:
  • :cloyster:
  • :rhydon:
  • :golem:
C Tier: Reserved for Pokemon who are good in the RBY metagame, yet are generally inconsistent. These Pokemon may have flaws, but they have positive aspects which makes them stand out, they need to work in specific team comps or need to have certain match-ups that allow their positives to shine.
  • :jolteon:
  • :slowbro:
  • :gengar:
D Tier: Reserved for Pokemon that have solid niches in the RBY metagame, but nonetheless are generally inconsistent. These Pokemon have definite flaws, but may have positive aspects which can make them worth using.
  • :dragonite:
  • :victreebel:
  • :articuno:
  • :persian:
E Tier: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the RBY metagame, but are decent enough to pose a threat at times, usually out of surprise. These Pokemon have a small niche in the metagame and can work with very niche team comps.
  • :hypno:
  • :clefable:
  • :kangaskhan:
  • :venusaur:
  • :raichu:
  • :tentacruel:
  • :poliwrath:
  • :dodrio:
  • :ninetales:
  • :rapidash:
  • :charizard:
  • :moltres:
  • :omastar:
  • :sandslash:
F Tier: Reserved for Pokemon that are very mediocre, they are very dependent on surprising the opponent to pose any threat. These Pokemon are dependent on the surprise factor to contribute value.
  • :dugtrio:
  • :flareon:
  • :arcanine:
  • :kingler:
  • :pinsir:
  • :parasect:
  • :porygon:
  • :kadabra:
  • :nidoking:
  • :gyarados:
  • :golduck:
  • :electrode:
  • :machamp:
  • :tangela:
 
Last edited:
Good job on this. I have a couple of things I want to call out:
1) Golem is ranked way too low it. It should be roughly equal to Rhydon at A- / B+ tier. I think people prefer using Rhydon lately due to more ppl using team comps where you have more para support but Golem is better in team comps where there is more sleepers and less para support. I think by nature they are roughly equal. I even like Golem better, explosion makes it way more versatile.

2) Vic is ranked way too high. It should be C tier. I love victreebel it's great as a surprise weapon but it has too many flaws compared to all the lower tier OUs. People over estimate wrap, because you have to use it multiple times it's going to miss on switches. You have to be real lucky for it not to miss. Victreebell doesn't have the speed to followup when it misses on a switch and your opponent is faster than you. On top of that vic is weak to ice and psychic the most common special attacks among the OUs AND it cant take physical attacks very well not even earthquake.
Golem's results lately I think proves otherwise that they are NOT "roughly equal". In major tournaments over the past couple years, Rhydon has held a reliable 50% winrate while Golem has consistently had very poor performances in line with low ranks like Persian. This seems to indicate that until something changes, Golem is not in a good place at all in the modern RBY metagame.

Victreebel absolutely does not belong in C (or D in your ranks). Victreebel is not a "surprise weapon", it's been a common threat in RBY Tournaments for quite some time yet still has performed quite strongly, so "surprise" is not any more of a factor than Zapdos, Jynx or any other Pokemon, it's good even with players expecting it to show up. You don't seem to understand Wrap if you think its only use is to sweep, you can use Wrap to switch out yourself to a superior matchup, or pressure your opponent to bring in a Pokemon that is not paralyzed, and thus probably vulnerable to taking sleep or paralysis itself. It can be a huge issue against "S4 + Lead + 6th" teams if the 6th is slow, especially if the lead took paralysis. That would leave only Tauros being capable of switching in on Wrap, at which point Tauros is putting itself at huge risk of taking status. Victreebel's got weaknesses to Ice and Psychic, sure, but the more paralysis gets spread, the more these weaknesses become a non-issue. It does have a huge issue with barely contributing defensively, but it's offensive pressure has proven itself to more than make up for its flaws.

I disagree with your rankings, but they're your personal rankings so I'll agree to disagree. If you're not aware though, Nidoqueen > Nidoking. Same Special stat, speed is only relevant vs. Dragonite (who can survive Blizzard and set up on Nidoking anyway), Attack stat doesn't change # of hits to KO with Earthquake, but the bulk matters in 4 key places: Nidoqueen can survive 2 rounds against Tauros (no other Ground-type can do this), 2 Earthquakes from Snorlax, has a much higher chance of surviving 2 Ice Beams from Chansey, and has a chance of surviving 4 Drill Pecks from Zapdos. That's 3 S-Ranks and an A-Rank that Nidoqueen performs better than Nidoking against with little drawback. Not really important because Nidos are F ranked either way, but it bugs me that everyone automatically assumes Nidoking is better when the math doesn't line up. Shame that Lovely Kiss is Tradebacks-only though, Nidos would atleast be decent gimmicks.
 
I don't think F tier should even exist. Parasect? Really? Is there ever any reason to use him?
It's not even gaurenteed sleep, because all other sleepers outspeed him, several pokes outspeed and can OHKO, and if you're not leading with him most paralysed pokes can safely switch in.
 
Golem's results lately I think proves otherwise that they are NOT "roughly equal". In major tournaments over the past couple years, Rhydon has held a reliable 50% winrate while Golem has consistently had very poor performances in line with low ranks like Persian. This seems to indicate that until something changes, Golem is not in a good place at all in the modern RBY metagame.

Victreebel absolutely does not belong in C (or D in your ranks). Victreebel is not a "surprise weapon", it's been a common threat in RBY Tournaments for quite some time yet still has performed quite strongly, so "surprise" is not any more of a factor than Zapdos, Jynx or any other Pokemon, it's good even with players expecting it to show up. You don't seem to understand Wrap if you think its only use is to sweep, you can use Wrap to switch out yourself to a superior matchup, or pressure your opponent to bring in a Pokemon that is not paralyzed, and thus probably vulnerable to taking sleep or paralysis itself. It can be a huge issue against "S4 + Lead + 6th" teams if the 6th is slow, especially if the lead took paralysis. That would leave only Tauros being capable of switching in on Wrap, at which point Tauros is putting itself at huge risk of taking status. Victreebel's got weaknesses to Ice and Psychic, sure, but the more paralysis gets spread, the more these weaknesses become a non-issue. It does have a huge issue with barely contributing defensively, but it's offensive pressure has proven itself to more than make up for its flaws.

I disagree with your rankings, but they're your personal rankings so I'll agree to disagree. If you're not aware though, Nidoqueen > Nidoking. Same Special stat, speed is only relevant vs. Dragonite (who can survive Blizzard and set up on Nidoking anyway), Attack stat doesn't change # of hits to KO with Earthquake, but the bulk matters in 4 key places: Nidoqueen can survive 2 rounds against Tauros (no other Ground-type can do this), 2 Earthquakes from Snorlax, has a much higher chance of surviving 2 Ice Beams from Chansey, and has a chance of surviving 4 Drill Pecks from Zapdos. That's 3 S-Ranks and an A-Rank that Nidoqueen performs better than Nidoking against with little drawback. Not really important because Nidos are F ranked either way, but it bugs me that everyone automatically assumes Nidoking is better when the math doesn't line up. Shame that Lovely Kiss is Tradebacks-only though, Nidos would atleast be decent gimmicks.
Hey Enigami,

Thanks for the feedback.

On Golem vs Ryhdon, I am aware of that the current meta has shifted towards Ryhdon. I've observed this trend as well. I'm just not sure WHY? I'm not sure if it is really because players have found something about Golem that allows it's weaknesses to be exploited OR if it is Rhydon is simply more popular now due to better synergies with the current team comps in vogue. My own personal thought is Golem is just not as popular now due to Rhydon synergizing better with starmie in the lead position which is meta currently. But nothing has really changed about these two pokes themselves, Golem is fundamentally the same as its always been.

However, I am open minded about this. I would love to understand why players are preferring Rhydon more now. I think this topic is worth explored deeper.

On Victreebel, I absolutely love Victreebel and I'm an avid user. I can agree with you here that Victreebel can be a tier up, with the likes of Gengar, Slowbro. Most of the time folks use Victreebel on their third or fourth team. It's just hard to have it as a staple in first or second teams because of the overlap with eggy.

On Nidoqueen, hmm I didn't know that. I do have a UU team built to take on OU's so I have experience with some of these not played pokes but to be honest it's tough to know how alot of them really stack in OU games. Based on my own experience, dnite, cuno, persian can all be played in different team comps but there is a drop off from there. Hypno and Clef are probably the most well rounded of the remaining. Kong is a mini-lax and can counter. I've also played with all of the fire types and i think they stack up in that order.

Omantye - haha yea i don't know too much about F tier.
 

Nails

shay-
is a Tiering Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion
Hey Enigami,

Thanks for the feedback.

On Golem vs Ryhdon, I am aware of that the current meta has shifted towards Ryhdon. I've observed this trend as well. I'm just not sure WHY? I'm not sure if it is really because players have found something about Golem that allows it's weaknesses to be exploited OR if it is Rhydon is simply more popular now due to better synergies with the current team comps in vogue. My own personal thought is Golem is just not as popular now due to Rhydon synergizing better with starmie in the lead position which is meta currently. But nothing has really changed about these two pokes themselves, Golem is fundamentally the same as its always been.

However, I am open minded about this. I would love to understand why players are preferring Rhydon more now. I think this topic is worth explored deeper.
no one responded to this yet so i'll copy/paste the post i made on this point a year and a half ago on pokemonperfect
me said:
golem sucks because you put the rock on the team to beat the zap but you want to wallbreak with your boom relatively early to give yourself time to capitalize on the broken wall, and you don't get to accomplish both goals in the same game with your golem.

rhydon is amazing because it 2hkoes paraed chansey with eq so you force damage somewhere onto their team; snorlax can't switch in, eggy can't heal, every flying mon loses to it anyway/you can call it with either of your other attacks anyways, bull takes a million. the matchup vs reflect chansey is whatever, i'd much rather face a boltbeam twave chansey with my rhydon than reflect stoss because paraed reflect chans's odds of 1v1ing are way better, and you can opt out of the fight after you, say, broke one sub and healed. sub sorta really sucks on don. not that anything else is better of course.

i'd also rather have my rock check slowbro by 3hkoing it instead of "hope they don't switch out of my boom xd" both since golem gets outplayed soooo easily and having an alive rock after checking slowbro > having a dead rock after checking slowbro.

Rhydon Earthquake vs. Slowbro: 122-144 (31 - 36.6%) -- 69.4% chance to 3HKO
Golem Earthquake vs. Slowbro: 109-129 (27.7 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Rhydon Earthquake vs. Chansey: 354-417 (50.3 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Golem Earthquake vs. Chansey: 314-370 (44.6 - 52.6%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO
golem is a deeply flawed pokemon. its gameplans aren't strategically coherent. it brings two notable strengths to the table which are in direct conflict with each other (you don't know if you need to keep it alive to fight the electric until after you boom). each goal individually can be better accomplished by other pokemon who are more consistent and/or have more useful stat distributions.

put bluntly, golem sucks. i'd believe that in paraslam days the ability to control a game into a winning rhydon position was lower and the relative value of boom in a faster, more chaotic metagame was higher. since that update, golem has been as bad as it is now. it just took people a while to realize it.
 

Mr.E

im the best
is a Pre-Contributoris a Past SPL Champion
If your argument is that it can't both Boom and Wall in the same game, that sounds to me like an argument in favor of Golem because you can Boom in the games you don't need it to Wall. If the opponent doesn't have an Electric, Boom is theoretically better than Rhydon. (Rhydon is still arguably better due to the power difference -- I've been on this train since Day 1 -- but Golem certainly has a leg to stand on at least.) If the opponent has one, Golem is slightly worse, because it has less power to punish the opponent switching out of the matchup, but ultimately still does the job. I'm personally not convinced that early exploding is particularly great, though. Golem also unequivocably wins the Golem vs Rhydon matchup, which is hardly something to scoff at in a metagame that spans a whole dozen mons roughly.
 

Hipmonlee

Have a nice day
is a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
On Golem, one important thing to recognise that a lot of people miss is that you should pretty much never explode against Eggy.

Your opponents Eggy only wants to sleep something, protect you from your opponents Ground, and kill something else (usually with explosion). Exploding Golem against Eggy pretty much guarantees Eggy will accomplish all three.

So if you are gonna use Golem, then you need some other plan for how and when you will explode. There's a lot of possibilities for how you could do that, but if it includes exploding against Eggy, then its probably a bad plan.
 

Zokuru

The Stall Lord
is a Tiering Contributor
On Golem, one important thing to recognise that a lot of people miss is that you should pretty much never explode against Eggy.

Your opponents Eggy only wants to sleep something, protect you from your opponents Ground, and kill something else (usually with explosion). Exploding Golem against Eggy pretty much guarantees Eggy will accomplish all three.

So if you are gonna use Golem, then you need some other plan for how and when you will explode. There's a lot of possibilities for how you could do that, but if it includes exploding against Eggy, then its probably a bad plan.
Even if you pair Golem with Slowbro ? I mean, Eggy is one of the best and most common Bro stops in late game rn, might be worth to boom Eggy if you're using it right ?
 

Nails

shay-
is a Tiering Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion
If your argument is that it can't both Boom and Wall in the same game, that sounds to me like an argument in favor of Golem because you can Boom in the games you don't need it to Wall. If the opponent doesn't have an Electric, Boom is theoretically better than Rhydon. (Rhydon is still arguably better due to the power difference -- I've been on this train since Day 1 -- but Golem certainly has a leg to stand on at least.) If the opponent has one, Golem is slightly worse, because it has less power to punish the opponent switching out of the matchup, but ultimately still does the job. I'm personally not convinced that early exploding is particularly great, though. Golem also unequivocably wins the Golem vs Rhydon matchup, which is hardly something to scoff at in a metagame that spans a whole dozen mons roughly.
Sorry, I didn't make that point as clear as I could've. The unrevealed mon in the back may or may not be a Zapdos when your opportunity to boom comes up far too often. With no phazing, there isn't any way to actually see which mons are in the back unless your opponent shows you, and that bit of information is vital to knowing how you're supposed to play your Golem in any given game.
 
If your argument is that it can't both Boom and Wall in the same game, that sounds to me like an argument in favor of Golem because you can Boom in the games you don't need it to Wall. If the opponent doesn't have an Electric, Boom is theoretically better than Rhydon.
It's also true that many pokes have contradictory roles. Gengar can't explode and then catch rival explosions, Zam can't realistically spread paralysis, take sleep and sweep. Probably he can only do 1. I guess the difference is that only Golem has a near identical pokemon to compare to.
It basically adds a level of psychology that wasn't there before. If your opponent has an electric, Golem's boom potentially becomes more potent because it's more unexpected.
Ultimately, if your opponent has an electric, you're ahead whether you pick Golem or Rhydon, but (as Mr. E says) you still have the boom option if they're electric free.

Rhydon is still better, mainly due to extra damage vs Eggy (and secondly Chansey and Starmie).
 

Mr.E

im the best
is a Pre-Contributoris a Past SPL Champion
Sorry, I didn't make that point as clear as I could've. The unrevealed mon in the back may or may not be a Zapdos when your opportunity to boom comes up far too often. With no phazing, there isn't any way to actually see which mons are in the back unless your opponent shows you, and that bit of information is vital to knowing how you're supposed to play your Golem in any given game.
If the main purpose of carrying either Rock/Ground is to counter Zapdos (and to a lesser extent Jolteon), then you keep it hidden until the opponent reveals their last. Booming Golem opportunistically isn't so different from playing Rhydon aggressively and risking it getting worn down tanking hits. If you're concerned about their last being an Electric, just don't do it. You don't explode Golem anymore than you run Rhydon into Chansey all day and risk eating Ice Beams. It's not like Explosion is bad in the lategame. If you're ahead, nothing secures a lead better. If you're neutral or behind, if you're up against something unstatused, blowing up your Golem is significantly better than firing off an EQ with Rhydon before being 2HKOed anyway.
 

Amaranth

Formerly The Idiot Ninja
is a Pre-Contributoris a Past SPL Champion
Going to open by saying that we could argue for days but until someone brings Golem and has success with it in high level play no one will change their mind. By this point we have enough data showing the massive gap between the two rocks and if the data doesn't change I highly doubt any opinions will change.

But I want to address this argument:
Booming Golem opportunistically isn't so different from playing Rhydon aggressively and risking it getting worn down tanking hits. If you're concerned about their last being an Electric, just don't do it. You don't explode Golem anymore than you run Rhydon into Chansey all day and risk eating Ice Beams.
It is very very different though. A Golem at 0% tells the opponent "hey mate I have no rock-type anymore, you can start setting up the board so that Zapdos clicks agility and wins". A Rhydon at 45% can still win the 1v1 with a full HP Zapdos.
"If you're concerned about the last being an Electric just don't do it" - the problem with this is that Golem is tragically bad with just the 3 moves. Genuinely UU quality mon outside of the ability to explode. It can't wallbreak or put any pressure on things early on, it's weak to Ice and for the amount of damage he takes it might as well be weak to Psychic too (Rhydon is the same, but at least if you find space for him to land free hits safely he makes it worth it), if you're not using Golem for the Explosion button it's genuinely awful.

Golem vs Zapdos is a 5v5 game because the opponent doesn't want to send Zapdos since it's walled, but you don't want to send Golem either, because it's fucking garbage and you can't even explode it. Instead, in Rhydon vs Zapdos, your Rock-type is actually able to do progress while still forcing the Zapdos player to only use 5 mons.

I'll say this again - if you somehow manage to talk yourself into Golem being not as bad as people think, look at the data again and snap back to reality. This is one rare case where we have the luxury of statistics telling us a very very clear story, so it doesn't really matter how anyone is wording their arguments, the facts are unarguably the same
 
Golem vs Zapdos is a 5v5 game because the opponent doesn't want to send Zapdos since it's walled, but you don't want to send Golem either, because it's fucking garbage and you can't even explode it. Instead, in Rhydon vs Zapdos, your Rock-type is actually able to do progress while still forcing the Zapdos player to only use 5 mons.
That's just nonsense though. Golem can still come in on Thunder Waves, Thunderbolts, Hyper Beams and Explosions and still does good damage to anything (just not as good as Rhydon). If you have Golem out and your opponent has their Eggy KO'd, what can they safely switch in? Naff all.
Sure, Rhydon would be slightly better, but acting like Golem doesn't have mid-game uses is just wrong.
 

Amaranth

Formerly The Idiot Ninja
is a Pre-Contributoris a Past SPL Champion
That's just nonsense though. Golem can still come in on Thunder Waves, Thunderbolts, Hyper Beams and Explosions and still does good damage to anything (just not as good as Rhydon). If you have Golem out and your opponent has their Eggy KO'd, what can they safely switch in? Naff all.
Sure, Rhydon would be slightly better, but acting like Golem doesn't have mid-game uses is just wrong.
This is the important part. Exeggutors don't just magically snap out of existance. They're fairly common and generally very alive in the midgame. Also there isn't much that Golem can threaten in a 1v1, you list electric and normal-type moves as if they're a long list of stuff, but really that just means boltbeam chansey or tb starmie, which can both absolutely murder Golem (and usually aren't clicking tbolt very often in the first place), and Snorlax, which laughs at Golem very hard with Reflect. Making Golem come in safely is tough work - you need to force recovery from stuff like zam, chansey, snorlax without a reflect, -and- predict that recovery correctly. It's just not worth the effort when the reward is minor Eggy chip. Meanwhile Rhydon's chip is so much more substantial so when he gets a chance to attack it actually matters.

You know what's nonsense? Claiming that Golem is anywhere close to Rhydon. Again, just look at the stats.
 
It's tough to be totally reliant on stats when judging viability because stats are dependent on what people feel about viability in the first place. It would be one thing if the data were clearly telling us that Rhydon is worse (because that would be going against prevailing opinion), but if the data agrees with most of the community that Rhydon is better that's not necessarily inspiring. We would already expect the players who know what they're doing to pick Rhydon (and for people who are out of the loop to pick Golem more often). I mean I don't think that completely undermines the data or anything but I don't think I would be putting enormous stock into it either.
 

Amaranth

Formerly The Idiot Ninja
is a Pre-Contributoris a Past SPL Champion
It's tough to be totally reliant on stats when judging viability because stats are dependent on what people feel about viability in the first place. It would be one thing if the data were clearly telling us that Rhydon is worse (because that would be going against prevailing opinion), but if the data agrees with most of the community that Rhydon is better that's not necessarily inspiring. We would already expect the players who know what they're doing to pick Rhydon (and for people who are out of the loop to pick Golem more often). I mean I don't think that completely undermines the data or anything but I don't think I would be putting enormous stock into it either.
"Inspiring" is one thing, but we're staring at 10 Golem uses against 123 Rhydon uses in the last two SPLs. Either every top player is clueless, or they've figured something out
 
oh yes for sure. I just think it's more interesting/persuasive to talk about the material differences between Golem/Rhydon (which you did plenty of) rather than point at the statistics, because the statistics largely just reflect the known consensus anyway. I'm not really making a terribly important point and I assume you're right that Rhydon is better so I'll stop here, but that was just something I felt the need to say.
 

Hipmonlee

Have a nice day
is a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
Even if you pair Golem with Slowbro ? I mean, Eggy is one of the best and most common Bro stops in late game rn, might be worth to boom Eggy if you're using it right ?
Yeah, this is probably the one scenario where I would consider Eggy as a target, but also consider an alternative like just waiting for Eggy to explode on something else (ideally your Golem). Patience is a virtue.
 
This is the important part. Exeggutors don't just magically snap out of existance.

You know what's nonsense? Claiming that Golem is anywhere close to Rhydon.
That's a fair point, but it does happen.
Regarding getting Golem in...Rhydon has the exact same problem, it just does a little more damage.
I'm not claiming Golem is as good as Rhydon btw, but stats don't really give any info on how good Golem is. Lvl 99 Rhydon is only a little bit worse than Lvl 100, but noone would ever use it because it's objectively worse.
 

Mr.E

im the best
is a Pre-Contributoris a Past SPL Champion
"Inspiring" is one thing, but we're staring at 10 Golem uses against 123 Rhydon uses in the last two SPLs. Either every top player is clueless, or they've figured something out
And years before that, Golem was more popular. Did it take everyone else 20 years to catch up to me? :smogthink:

I don't think the slightly higher chip on Eggy is meaningful so much as the potential 2HKO on Starmie , guaranteed 2HKO on Chansey, potential 3HKO on Slowbro, etc. If you're just bemoaning Eggy dumping on your Ground-type trying to wreak some havoc, perhaps it's time for the Sandslash Era to begin. :jynx:
 

Amaranth

Formerly The Idiot Ninja
is a Pre-Contributoris a Past SPL Champion
And years before that, Golem was more popular. Did it take everyone else 20 years to catch up to me? :smogthink:
Before paraslam discoveries Golem was the better mon because the meta as a whole was substantially different. Don't forget that this is a tier so stupidly centralized that even Porygon manages to see play just because he counters Snorlax, and stuff like Victreebel that isn't very good in UU but is considerably more viable in OU due to how it matches up to the environment. The slightest tweaks in how the big boys interact have a whole bunch of side effects for the viability of the small boys. 2019 RBY has existed for a very short time, you wouldn't see people 'discover' Victreebel and Cloyster and Rest Jolteon and all the kind of innovation that we've seen over the last couple years if the same game had been here for 20 years
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top