Rejected RBY Sleep Cause Should Be Cart Accurate (and other gens should consider it too)

[Ortheore]

And the game is better for it. RBY without freeze clause is just stupid. I legit only see this bs uttered by people who don't even play RBY competitively.
Freezes can still happen but they can't completely swing a game as 2+ Freezes could.

Might as well just roll dice to determine a winner at that point. Freeze Clause and by extension Sleep Clause are artificial rules we put in to make these metas competitively playable. Thank the lord for Stadium (which was standard for competitive play back then btw) providing us with those.

Hello, long time member of the anti-freeze clause team here, been playing for well over a decade. I honestly don't see people opposing freeze clause who don't play rby. But I don't think those types of arguments should be used either way

As for Stadium being the standard for competitive play, do you have a source? That's actually really intriguing bc it's the first I've heard of it.

Freeze clause is also totally irrelevant, because I (and pretty much everyone else) can accept that there's not enough support for scrapping it. It's also important to be clear that no one is proposing scrapping sleep clause, just modifying it to be cart accurate. Although that wasn't mentioned, it's nonetheless worth highlighting, as getting sidetracked with fruitless freeze clause discussions can cause that point to be overlooked. This is literally just a slight modification to the existing rules that's being proposed

 

[MeepBard]

rby is literally the one gen where sleep clause can be cart accurate. spore can miss no matter what you do. sleep clause as currently implemented is highly unlikely, but just as theoretically possible as freeze clause.

this is correct and i'd neglected to mention this in my first post so i appreciate the correction here!

i think the difference between this and freeze though in my opinion is that freeze is a secondary effect of an attacking move while sleep is the primary effect of a status move - one is out of the control of both players and provides strategic benefit outside of freezing (which would warrant a replay of the match if freeze clause were enforced on cart), while the other is a deliberate choice made by a player to inflict a status condition (which would warrant a DQ if sleep clause were enforced on cart). so theoretically sleep clause mod can be replicated on cart in gen 1, but on cart you will never actually be able to click a sleep move twice without risking elimination, while on showdown there is serious strategic value to doing this like getting a sleep immediately on wakeup (especially in generation 1 when pokemon can't attack on wakeup) and entirely no risk outside of wasting one turn at worst.

so the disparity here i think is what our definition of "cart accurate" even is. is it stuff that can be theoretically replicated on cart, like freeze clause mod and sleep clause mod? or should clauses be designed with practicality for cart first and foremost as said by melbelle? i think once that's settled what action (if any) to take on sleep clause mod would be clearer. either way though i don't think action on sleep clause mod should impact other clauses, this thread is strictly about sleep clause mod and if the playerbase finds that there's an issue with any other clause they're free to make their own PR threads to discuss them

 

[BigFatMantis]

Typically if there’s no consensus on what to do, then there probably isn’t anything to be done. There is no sense in changing the status quo without substantial support for such a change, which this thread has not shown at all. So, unless you want to gather data some other way (a survey of qualified voters perhaps) then this topic is effectively going nowhere.

 

[Star]

The post above pretty much summarizes this discussion. In addition to the general lack of significant support, adding lose conditions is a huge break from every other Smogon metagame, and not something we're ever looking to support.