god help me i'm becoming a policy review main gg
First off, I want to acknowledge this has been talked about several times before and this will probably elicit groans from people. However, I think RBY especially requires a cart-accurate Sleep Clause, and anything else warps the OU and Ubers metagames in particular into something that is fully impossible on cart. Anyone who has watched RBY has seen a Chansey vs Chansey PP stall war. In such a scenario, if either Chansey has Sing, it will often use it even after Sleep Clause is in effect just to use up the PP instead of wasting more valuable moves like Thunder Wave, Softboiled, or attacks. This would blatantly lose the game on cartridge if, for example, you used it as the opponent switched in unparalyzed Tauros or Snorlax to attempt to break the stalemale and landed the move. This gives Sing Chansey an unfair advantage in a stall war that it blatantly does not have on cartridge and therefore should not have on simulator. I believe these same arguments can apply to any tier where sleep is legal, and so I would urge knowledgeable people in other gens to have a conversation around this and possibly make their own Policy Review threads for their own gens, but I would rather this thread focus on RBY - it's what I know and I'm not arrogant enough to go around trying to change other people's tiers, though I believe the cart accuracy concern should be a global concern, personally. I realize it's more complicated in later gens because of Encore, Magic Bounce, Relic Song, Effect Spore, etc., so I won't pretend to have a magically good, concise answer, and I get why other gens may not want the hassle.
So, addressing RBY, here's what I believe to be a good Sleep Clause given the simplicity of RBY's moves, lack of abilities, etc: if at any time two or more opposing Pokemon are asleep as a result of moves you used, you lose immediately. Simple enough. This allows Rest as per usual, it does not restrict what buttons you can click, and you can even riskily click Sing in a Chansey stall or you can safely do it if all remaining foes are statused. No restrictions, just pay attention to the game state, just like we already have to for recovery failures and stat reapplication and a million other things. I honestly don't care about the wording as long as that's the end result; if other gens decided to do something similar and the clause needed to have inclusive wording for those gens too, I'm fine with whatever as long as the practical effect in RBY is "you sleep 2 foes = lose."
Here are my arguments:
1. This clause would be cart accurate. The current simulator clause is inaccurate and gives an undeserved buff to tactics that would lose games on cartridge OU. Aside from the above Sing stall, another sim-only tactic is resleeping the foe right as they wake. On simulator, players often go for this at 5 or 6 turns burnt if their sleeper is slower than the foe. On cart, you would risk an instant loss if the foe switched out. This makes it optimal to make plays that are ridiculous on cart because of simulator-specific foibles. I shouldn't have to explain why that's suboptimal and something to avoid, and this should really be the only argument that matters if we really care about cart accuracy.
2. Unlike fully blocking the move, this preserves player choice. Cart-accurate Sleep Clause still allows you to PP stall with Sing, it just means you have to be careful. It still allows you to resleep things. Players should have these options be exactly the same as they are on cart, and this removes the need to code in a million checks before greying out a move like "do not grey out the move if all foes are statused" or whatever.
3. This clause does not massively uproot the metagame and cause mass rejection/a playerbase split. This shouldn't have to be an argument, but it's a relevant detail given how an unpopular proposal can cause a playerbase to revolt and damage a metagame more than just leaving the status quo alone. This is a small fix that, yes, does slightly nerf Sing Chansey, but it does not kill it off, it is not some massive shift like Tradebacks, and it should go over relatively smoothly even with people who are apathetic or against this change.
And addressing some arguments against this:
1. Implementing this is complex coding-wise. I can't speak to this, but if you read the threads I linked, Zarel entertained this exact idea when originally coding Sleep Clause on Showdown, but apparently people pushed back on it back then. Anyway, I would presume this means it is feasible coding-wise.
2. It's too complex for new players/in general. In RBY this is very simple to explain due to the lack of mechanics like Encore, abilities, etc. If we're talking about ladder players, 1000 players already click sleep 12 times in a row without noticing that it's having no effect - instantly losing would actually probably make them learn faster. Also, new players already have to deal with this shit, I think they can understand "sleep 2 things = lose."
Frankly, I also do not think we should compromise cart accuracy for the sake of new players, or we could argue for simplifying or outright ignoring many janky cart mechanics in every gen.
3. It's always been like this/it's minor, why change it? Paraslam change came in 2014, should we have left it alone because "it's always been like this" for decades? "It's minor why change it" is also just a non argument, it's a thought-terminating phrase that has no merit in and of itself. Minor inaccuracies get fixed all the time in every gen. Hell, I can think of a half dozen tiny RBY issues that got patched this past year with Counter alone.
4. Ban Sleep entirely if you want cart accuracy/for simplicity. This is equally cart accurate and top RBYers generally agree that sleep is good for the metagame. I am not making an argument on whether sleep is balanced, my argument is purely that the clause is not cart accurate and making it cart accurate is good and not overcomplicated.
5. This is inconsistent with other gens. I personally don't care about this, other gens/tiers have different sleep mechanics and different moves/abilities/etc. that make this conversation more complicated than it is here. I encourage them all to have their own conversations, and I think RBY should do it on the basis that this is good and accurate for RBY. Consistency between gens/tiers is not some inherent gold standard of tiering or policymaking.
6. HP% Mod/Desync Clause Mod/whatever exists so who cares about cart accuracy? Clearly we do care or we'd patch out 1/256 misses, recovery fails, etc. Just because we do not have 100% perfect cart accuracy, does not mean we should not strive for increased accuracy where possible. This is a very easy fix.
TLDR: make Sleep Clause cart accurate so RBY can be more cart accurate overall.
I also have some general tiering questions with this that apply to all gens and tiers:
1. Is a cart-accurate Sleep Clause an option for tiers with legal sleep? Do the overall tiering/policy authorities oppose it, or has it just not been something with any push/momentum behind changing it? If there is opposition, why?
2. If the above is allowed, does it have to be a consistency thing where all Sleep Clauses are replaced with this, or could RBY implement this on our own volition even if other tiers maintained status quo?
3. To what extent is ladder and especially low ladder a consideration? Is there a differentiation between something like the RBY ladder and the SV ladder, given that one attracts far more (and probably much younger) players and is more actively changing?
As for specifically implementing this in RBY, I am open to and hoping for feedback from our many excellent RBY players; I'm sure there are factors I haven't considered and I'm hoping this sparks some conversation so we can have a proper decision on this with regards to RBY, rather than circular Discord conversations with no real momentum toward a resolution.
First off, I want to acknowledge this has been talked about several times before and this will probably elicit groans from people. However, I think RBY especially requires a cart-accurate Sleep Clause, and anything else warps the OU and Ubers metagames in particular into something that is fully impossible on cart. Anyone who has watched RBY has seen a Chansey vs Chansey PP stall war. In such a scenario, if either Chansey has Sing, it will often use it even after Sleep Clause is in effect just to use up the PP instead of wasting more valuable moves like Thunder Wave, Softboiled, or attacks. This would blatantly lose the game on cartridge if, for example, you used it as the opponent switched in unparalyzed Tauros or Snorlax to attempt to break the stalemale and landed the move. This gives Sing Chansey an unfair advantage in a stall war that it blatantly does not have on cartridge and therefore should not have on simulator. I believe these same arguments can apply to any tier where sleep is legal, and so I would urge knowledgeable people in other gens to have a conversation around this and possibly make their own Policy Review threads for their own gens, but I would rather this thread focus on RBY - it's what I know and I'm not arrogant enough to go around trying to change other people's tiers, though I believe the cart accuracy concern should be a global concern, personally. I realize it's more complicated in later gens because of Encore, Magic Bounce, Relic Song, Effect Spore, etc., so I won't pretend to have a magically good, concise answer, and I get why other gens may not want the hassle.
So, addressing RBY, here's what I believe to be a good Sleep Clause given the simplicity of RBY's moves, lack of abilities, etc: if at any time two or more opposing Pokemon are asleep as a result of moves you used, you lose immediately. Simple enough. This allows Rest as per usual, it does not restrict what buttons you can click, and you can even riskily click Sing in a Chansey stall or you can safely do it if all remaining foes are statused. No restrictions, just pay attention to the game state, just like we already have to for recovery failures and stat reapplication and a million other things. I honestly don't care about the wording as long as that's the end result; if other gens decided to do something similar and the clause needed to have inclusive wording for those gens too, I'm fine with whatever as long as the practical effect in RBY is "you sleep 2 foes = lose."
Here are my arguments:
1. This clause would be cart accurate. The current simulator clause is inaccurate and gives an undeserved buff to tactics that would lose games on cartridge OU. Aside from the above Sing stall, another sim-only tactic is resleeping the foe right as they wake. On simulator, players often go for this at 5 or 6 turns burnt if their sleeper is slower than the foe. On cart, you would risk an instant loss if the foe switched out. This makes it optimal to make plays that are ridiculous on cart because of simulator-specific foibles. I shouldn't have to explain why that's suboptimal and something to avoid, and this should really be the only argument that matters if we really care about cart accuracy.
2. Unlike fully blocking the move, this preserves player choice. Cart-accurate Sleep Clause still allows you to PP stall with Sing, it just means you have to be careful. It still allows you to resleep things. Players should have these options be exactly the same as they are on cart, and this removes the need to code in a million checks before greying out a move like "do not grey out the move if all foes are statused" or whatever.
3. This clause does not massively uproot the metagame and cause mass rejection/a playerbase split. This shouldn't have to be an argument, but it's a relevant detail given how an unpopular proposal can cause a playerbase to revolt and damage a metagame more than just leaving the status quo alone. This is a small fix that, yes, does slightly nerf Sing Chansey, but it does not kill it off, it is not some massive shift like Tradebacks, and it should go over relatively smoothly even with people who are apathetic or against this change.
And addressing some arguments against this:
1. Implementing this is complex coding-wise. I can't speak to this, but if you read the threads I linked, Zarel entertained this exact idea when originally coding Sleep Clause on Showdown, but apparently people pushed back on it back then. Anyway, I would presume this means it is feasible coding-wise.
2. It's too complex for new players/in general. In RBY this is very simple to explain due to the lack of mechanics like Encore, abilities, etc. If we're talking about ladder players, 1000 players already click sleep 12 times in a row without noticing that it's having no effect - instantly losing would actually probably make them learn faster. Also, new players already have to deal with this shit, I think they can understand "sleep 2 things = lose."
Frankly, I also do not think we should compromise cart accuracy for the sake of new players, or we could argue for simplifying or outright ignoring many janky cart mechanics in every gen.
3. It's always been like this/it's minor, why change it? Paraslam change came in 2014, should we have left it alone because "it's always been like this" for decades? "It's minor why change it" is also just a non argument, it's a thought-terminating phrase that has no merit in and of itself. Minor inaccuracies get fixed all the time in every gen. Hell, I can think of a half dozen tiny RBY issues that got patched this past year with Counter alone.
4. Ban Sleep entirely if you want cart accuracy/for simplicity. This is equally cart accurate and top RBYers generally agree that sleep is good for the metagame. I am not making an argument on whether sleep is balanced, my argument is purely that the clause is not cart accurate and making it cart accurate is good and not overcomplicated.
5. This is inconsistent with other gens. I personally don't care about this, other gens/tiers have different sleep mechanics and different moves/abilities/etc. that make this conversation more complicated than it is here. I encourage them all to have their own conversations, and I think RBY should do it on the basis that this is good and accurate for RBY. Consistency between gens/tiers is not some inherent gold standard of tiering or policymaking.
6. HP% Mod/Desync Clause Mod/whatever exists so who cares about cart accuracy? Clearly we do care or we'd patch out 1/256 misses, recovery fails, etc. Just because we do not have 100% perfect cart accuracy, does not mean we should not strive for increased accuracy where possible. This is a very easy fix.
TLDR: make Sleep Clause cart accurate so RBY can be more cart accurate overall.
I also have some general tiering questions with this that apply to all gens and tiers:
1. Is a cart-accurate Sleep Clause an option for tiers with legal sleep? Do the overall tiering/policy authorities oppose it, or has it just not been something with any push/momentum behind changing it? If there is opposition, why?
2. If the above is allowed, does it have to be a consistency thing where all Sleep Clauses are replaced with this, or could RBY implement this on our own volition even if other tiers maintained status quo?
3. To what extent is ladder and especially low ladder a consideration? Is there a differentiation between something like the RBY ladder and the SV ladder, given that one attracts far more (and probably much younger) players and is more actively changing?
As for specifically implementing this in RBY, I am open to and hoping for feedback from our many excellent RBY players; I'm sure there are factors I haven't considered and I'm hoping this sparks some conversation so we can have a proper decision on this with regards to RBY, rather than circular Discord conversations with no real momentum toward a resolution.
