Lower Tiers RBY UU Hub

current way it’s looking is that it will not be settled by then unless council wants to take initiative in pushing the issue forward, i am going to be extremely busy the rest of the month and do not have time till start of march to start working on the gordian knot that is the RBY UU Problem
 
is there even a good reason to wait for drops or anything to suspect wrap/pt it got large support in a survery already i dont think it should hinge on whether we like the potential ou drops or not. even if it does i dont think there's an issue with suspecting it now then post-ou vr suspecting it again due to the large shakeup.
if anything i think it's only fair to retest lapras and hypno alone even if we decide we don't want to pull wrap yet. i feel some people are too focused on the idea we either test everything c+ provides or test nothing, when we can totally retest hypno and lapras(/articuno) alone without anything dropping from ou. even without suspecting wrap/pt tbh.

i think i'd like uufpl to test uubl with or without wrap at this point tbh. even with two big, slow mons with wrap still intact it's still a big difference with sleep and i think there's not much reason to not revisit these mons at some point soon (again though, spotlight is an alternative in a less serious environment which has its own pros/cons to using this to test things). haunter becomes giga viable and should slow down tent tent/nite wrap spam at least and hypno not being the auto lead 90% of the time.
no wrap is obviously even more reason to test these but im just saying it's clear sleep is a huge game changer and should make the last time we tested them effectively void.

is like, suspecting wrap rn, using one of uufpl/spotlight to test uubls (regardless of outcome of suspect), then deciding again post-ou vr if wrap resulted in no ban not valid?
 
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BigFatMantis

The UU council has been discussing the possibility of testing a UU with just the UUBLS(Lapras Hypno Articuno legal, but without the c+ OUs) for UUFPL. The circumstances at the time of their ban was with sleep banned, and given that sleep has been legal for a while, it would be worth to gather data for what a meta with just the UUBLs would look like, considering no OUs are guaranteed to drop but the UUBLs lie outside of the domain of OU tiering. Arguably, Lapras and Hypno were more oppressive with sleep banned.

Additionally, going by eye on the C+ tournament, it seems that Lapras and Hypno were both highly impactful in that metagame in comparison to the C+ OUs, so these last 3 might not be necessary for a more stable metagame, so a test would be good to confirm. If we're wrong, worst case scenario, then UUFPL will have served to gather valuable data.
 
BigFatMantis

The UU council has been discussing the possibility of testing a UU with just the UUBLS(Lapras Hypno Articuno legal, but without the c+ OUs) for UUFPL. The circumstances at the time of their ban was with sleep banned, and given that sleep has been legal for a while, it would be worth to gather data for what a meta with just the UUBLs would look like, considering no OUs are guaranteed to drop but the UUBLs lie outside of the domain of OU tiering. Arguably, Lapras and Hypno were more oppressive with sleep banned.

Additionally, going by eye on the C+ tournament, it seems that Lapras and Hypno were both highly impactful in that metagame in comparison to the C+ OUs, so these last 3 might not be necessary for a more stable metagame, so a test would be good to confirm. If we're wrong, worst case scenario, then UUFPL will have served to gather valuable data.
So UUBLs unbanned, no other changes (I.e. pt moves allowed)
 
The UU council has been discussing the possibility of testing a UU with just the UUBLS(Lapras Hypno Articuno legal, but without the c+ OUs) for UUFPL.
For the record, my opinion is not to test them, but just to unban them entirely and immediately. The circumstances under which they were tested invalidate the results of the tests. Then let's tackle Wrap shortly after (possibly in UUFPL) and give that the Suspect Test. Then let's celebrate.
 
i dont really see the harm in straight unbanning them. if they prove problematic they can be suspected (again) but i believe a lot of promise has been shown in C+ and some less official testing i've done with others (friendly UUBL games, with and without wrap allowed). i think the only way to know if these mons in a sleep environment are unhealthy is to give them time in tournaments, assumptions made on the old meta are hardly relevant when sleep is a massive gamechanger that may fix lots of the issues. (so i do agree with framing it as an unban rather than a test, since we may not even need to suspect them at all). framing it as a test implies we already have an idea they may be problematic, which just is not the case. (i also think banning them even without sleep may have been an error in retrospect, but you know hindsight is 20/20 etc. i also think arguing for a sleep unban may have been difficult with these mons legal at the time, especially since i believed if sleep lap/hypno did end up problematic that we would simply revert back to sleepless rather than move forward with sleep and without these mons. sleep should be allowed by default and if these mons abuse it too hard they should be removed. this seems obvious now but when the playerbase at the time was considering going as far as banning sleep across all low tiers, i worry they may have kept sleep banned in the end).

i always thought testing these mons with sleep banned was unfortunate given the mons, as well as wrap itself, seem stronger with no sleep (faster sleep mons as an answer to hypno and somewhat lapras, especially since these mons also carry tbolt/razor leaf) as well as specifically haunter being valuable to slow down wrap in a meta centered around slow bulky mons. wrap nite/tent was a big part of old lap meta and haunter, even without sleep, still did see moderate use and should only help the meta in many aspects.

hypno as the default lead fades (still probably the best overall lead, but has counters in faster sleep mons). haunter slows down wrap, venu(or vic if dropped) as a mon to threaten lapras. kang/pers/nite somewhat scared of haunter (enough so to not be near default on most teams). lots of promise to improve from the old lapras meta.

let's tackle Wrap shortly after (possibly in UUFPL) and give that the Suspect Test.
the rby uu spotlight should be in april, i think we can play uufpl with wrap, play the spotlight without it (where we should have the UUBLs also officially unbanned) and also see what OU ends up dropping and by then we should be able to properly suspect wrap/pt. all right before many of the LTC tournaments are set to start popping up. in a few months we should have plenty of data on the UUBLs, potential OU drops, and playing with/without wrap and should finally have a proper base for uu to start with (again) (again again)
 
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Supporting the immediate unban of Hypno, Lapras and Articuno.

Articuno is not broken at all with Lapras existing. Dewgong is viable as second Tboltless Lapras too and other Water types (especially Omastar) check it as well.
Lapras and Hypno are obviously dominant threats and have shown themselves as such in C+ Meta. However, they end up having to check a lot of Mons in a game and while they generally will contribute with at least 1 kill, they are not hard to wear down. In fact, Hypno is not a fool-proof check to Kadabra (dominant threat) and while Kadabra dislikes para and can lose to Stoss Hypno... it can go either way. Similarly, Lapras is itself a Lapras check, Hypno check, Golem check, Kanga check... but all of those do a lot of damage in the process.
They are not too much different from Kanga (except for that terrible Special Kanga has, but it didn,t stop it from ruining my G3 of C+ tournament) in that they will always contribute, but won,t dominate games by themselves.

Victreebel (even with Wrap), Jolteon and Slowbro looked fine too for me. Without Wrap Victreebel is almost fully outclassed by Venusaur (who is the goat btw, should be more used), Jolteon is worse in UU than it is in OU (more Ground types and sometimes more than one is ran) and Slowbro just like in OU will eventually be critted (though it does mandate either running Venusaur or multiple Thunderbolt Mons + Explosion Mons). Obviously, if they are considered OU by power or usage, they shouldn,t be unbanned, but if they are, they wouldn,t be broken.
 
i actually see this the complete opposite way since access to stun spore is kinda great. but i get the merit of more bulk

Its not just more bulk, its more Speed too. Those 10 points:

-Allow to outspeed Dewgong instead of Speedtying it (important in Laprasless meta, not so much in Lapras one).
-Allow to outspeed Victreebel itself.
-Allow to Speed-Tie Dragonite instead of being outsped and 2HKOd (or Wrapped if that's allowed).

Besides that, Stun Spore misses a lot, hitting with Body Slam usually is much more reliable, with some chance for getting para too.
 
i see most of those as kind of middling since these mons (even vic itself) didn't see a lot of use (i think you were probably almost all the dewgong use). even then for nite itself i think stunning it is more valuable on average, even accounting for misses.
stun is a way to paralyze kang/other normals and even then, vic can also utilize slam. although i liked a set with sub as a way to make stun a less committal click (sleep/stun/razor/sub) especially if you land sleep with it.
 
Hello, I did alright in the C+ tournament so here is my epic viability ranking. My takes are 100% not going to age well but that's the fun of it, having a snapshot of the early meta is always good to look back on. I'm not going to talk about every mon I've ranked. In general I think fastmon == good.

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Kangaskhan>Hypno: Unlike Hypno, Kangaskhan has no switchins and outspeeds all the slow mons. It also has useful defensive utility since all the Grounds, especially Nidoking, do not like this mon. Most of the fastmons are physical attackers too, so the opponent often times just is forced to trade 65% of their Lapras for your Kang. Hypno is actually semi-exploitable, as a lead you obviously get slept, but in the back Slowbro and to a lesser extent Rest Hypno can farm you. In general I think fastmon == good, so Kang is better.

Haunter: Not a big fan of this mon. Hypno is everywhere and mons like Dodrio, Dugtrio, Kadabra, and Moltres are independently good. You get the fast Hypnosis and drop on Kang but I wouldn't hang your hat on that, it is really inconsistent for my tastes. I think sleep in general is worth a lot less since Hypno is really good already, and Lapras can also get sleep on switches.

Victreebel: Secretly goated? Immense role compression of sleeper + Jolteon check, and Razor Leaf is a surprisingly decent STAB to click since fliers and fires aren't on literally every team. The tier seems to be centralized around Normals, Psychics, Lapras, and Grounds, none of which resist. The 10 less speed of Venusaur doesn't really matter and getting Stun Spore is worth way more.

Golem: Rather mid. Running Hypno + Lapras in the back eats up a lot of your slots for speed, and running 3 mons in the back that can't revenge anything is bad in my opinion. Nidoking for the most does what Golem does, it has the better speed tier and doesn't sacrifice too much. I'd say the advantage to Golem is that it walls Dodo but if someone is loading Dodrio they probably have some plan lined up for it, Earthquake hits mons hard but since Golem is slower than everything and gets OHKOd by a bunch of stuff, switching something into EQ and threatening sleep or whatever is surprisingly decent. I'm also a believer in Tangela too.

Slowbro: I don't think this mon is particularly good. The main reason is how are you building with this, you probably are running Lapras + Hypno, and running two slow waters really incentivizes you to use a real Jolteon check (not Dugtrio) which puts a Ground on your team. This probably gets owned by Victreebel, 4 mons are slower. Speed is king in lower tiers, even when there is bulk. Still, you really need to respect Slowbro in the builder even though I don't like using it.

Ninetales and Moltres: Really nothing likes switching into Fire Blast, Ninetales is a bit better do the speed tier and being better into Haunter, but Moltres gets Agility. I still think outspeeding Kang is more important, however.

Jolteon: Maybe the tier is just overprepared for this mon, but I've never really seen Jolteon do much. Grounds are everywhere, it's rather frail so it doesn't want to just switch into attacks, even if you don't run into Grounds, Grasses or Thunder Wave users really hurt you and fitting Agility is difficult. However, like Slowbro, it has a seismic effect on teambuilding which forces a ground on most teams. I dislike this to be honest because it creates a matching problem that makes matchups more one-sided, Grounds are rather meh into not-Jolteon so you'd like to drop them into not-Jolteon, but you need to run them to stop Jolteon, but you also need to run Jolteon so the opponent runs Grounds, etc.

Gyarados: Despite everything, this mon has genuine advantages that nothing else in the tier really has. Fire-types are the realest they've ever been, since Lapras, Normals, Grounds, and Psychics don't really like switching in. Furthermore, Water-type attacks are rather threatening if you can get around Lapras and Slowbro. Hydro Pump gets the 2HKO on normals, Grounds are everywhere, Fires are real, and Thunderbolt prevents Slowbro and Lapras from just switching in and going infinite. It also is a great Dugtrio check. Genuinely decent mon.

Tangela: You'd think this mon does literally nothing because Hypno exists, but owning Golem and Dugtrio is still useful. It's neutral typing also makes it ok at clicking Stun Spore vs so much of the tier, too. Lastly, like Victreebel, it checks electrics even better actually, since it isn't weak to Pin Missile / Psychic and has better physical bulk.

Articuno: Not a big fan of this mon. On paper this mon goes stupid since Lapras doesn't usually last long in a game, but I've seen this mon whiff so many times. I really don't know why, either.

Electabuzz and Raichu: Worse Jolteons that have ways to get past grounds, Electabuzz is a bit higher since I think Psychic is worth a bit more than Surf + Agility.

Raticate: This mon registers a 9 on the shitter scale but it's somehow usable. It outspeeds all the lead sleepers and has Super Fang. Chunking whatever for 50% is just really good, you can do stupid stuff like Super Fang Lapras into Hyper Beam and trade with all the slower bulky mons, unlike the faster and stronger attackers like Dodo, Dug, and Cat.

Dragonite: Similar advantages to Gyarados but I think the upsides aren't as high. Thunder Wave is good but slower mons are usually going to stop you anyways, and I think the weakness to Blizzard is more detrimental than the weakness to Blizzard (Gyara can eat a non-STAB Thunderbolt vs Lapras). I think that the Water STAB is worth much more, too. Still usable, though, it has Thunder Wave and Agility sets.

Clefable: Soured on this mon a ton. Hypno outclasses this mon mostly and running both makes your team really really slow, and Clefable doesn't have the polarized matchups to get entry like Grasses or Grounds to really make it worthwhile.

Venomoth: I think this mon is rather meh, epic you get to outspeed most of the other leads (except Haunter) but like what do you do afterwards. Grasses have more utility + aren't forever walled by Hypno. Usable in getting the jump on grass leads but rather niche in the sense that the mon is really meh outside of that.

Venusaur: Sadly I think this mon is 100% outclassed by Victreebel. The extra speed doesn't really get you any extra targets + you 100% have to switch out afterwards because so many mons switch in for free without the fear of Stun Spore. Like Venomoth, you can use this to get the jump on lead Victreebel while still having a semi-functional Grass afterwards.

Nidoqueen: You live a lot more often with Nidoqueen but since everyone is using Nidoking I think the speed drop is way too important to give up since you lose the mirror. Probably worth using versus people who don't load Nidoking.

Overall I think the meta was fun. Sing is a bit silly but I think running mons that aren't 100% forced to switch out of Lapras makes it way more managable. All versions of UU have felt rather awful to play, so I hope C+ or something of the sort becomes the official UU tier. I think Jolteon is probably unhealthy for the tier in terms adding matchups variance.
 
(i think you were probably almost all the dewgong use)

Just checked this and apparently I am 25% of Dewgong usage (used it once), but 100% of its wins, lmao (it killed Lapras and Kanga in the game, so wasn,t useless).

Regarding Stun Spore, I see the appeal, but if I needed the move, I would rather use Tangela, who can take way more hits than Vic and is not weak to Psychic (funnily enough, it also was the most succesfull Grass Mon on the tour, with a massive 79% win rate compared to 42% Vic and 48% Venu). Also, vs both Persian and Kanga, using Razor Leaf tends to achieve more than using Stun Spore, Kanga has pathetic Special bulk and the cat isn,t much better (though it is absolutely ruined by para, I give you that).

So, the only point I see of Vic is if I need both Razor Leaf and Stun Spore. If its only one move, Venu and Tangela respectively look better. This obviously is assuming Wrap is banned (which I oppose to), with Wrap Victreebel is the best of the 3 by far.
 
Since the UU spotlight is nearing (and has officially been confirmed that it will be April) I want to bring up the possibility of using it as a test for UUBL or wrapless UUBL as I've brought up in the past. Wrapless UUBL would have us with data for all of Wrapless C+, Wrapless, UUBL, and Wrapless UUBL and it seems likely at least one of unbanning the BLs, unbanning the BLs in addition to gaining OU drops, and suspecting Wrap/PT will be occuring.
 
Please do not test Wrapless. Wrap has been significantly nerfed and the April suspect and UU teamtour ongoing is the perfect place to test it out. Giving it no breathing room now seems just like a really really bad idea
 
Please do not test Wrapless. Wrap has been significantly nerfed and the April suspect and UU teamtour ongoing is the perfect place to test it out. Giving it no breathing room now seems just like a really really bad idea
I didn't suggest to change UUFPL to Wrapless, just the spotlight tour. Like you said, the teamtour is testing the new Wrap changes already, the spotlight can be used to test UUBL in a Wrapless environment while keeping Wrap in UUFPL.

We should unban the UUBLs regardless of what we wanna do with Wrap anyway so I don't see much value in testing no changes UU just because they changed Wrap
 
Gonna double post instead of edit since it addresses a different point:

Since we pretty much know we're going to do something (UUBL unbans and/or Wrap/PT suspect) we might as well just get data on all our options including the UUBL mons in a no PT environment and have it figured out before more of the LTC tournaments begin starting.

That said using the spotlight as an excuse to make the BL unbans official even if we keep Wrap for the moment would be cool too. By the time that ends RBY OU should be either in the middle of the VR process or actually done with it and we can see drops.
 
Gonna double post instead of edit since it addresses a different point:

Since we pretty much know we're going to do something (UUBL unbans and/or Wrap/PT suspect) we might as well just get data on all our options including the UUBL mons in a no PT environment and have it figured out before more of the LTC tournaments begin starting.

That said using the spotlight as an excuse to make the BL unbans official even if we keep Wrap for the moment would be cool too. By the time that ends RBY OU should be either in the middle of the VR process or actually done with it and we can see drops.

Main issue is that the spotlight will tell us next to nothing because barely anyone plays it, and that banning PT in the spotlight means you will have to play with a challenge code throughout UUFPL because it’ll be reflected on Smogtours as well
 
Main issue is that the spotlight will tell us next to nothing because barely anyone plays it, and that banning PT in the spotlight means you will have to play with a challenge code throughout UUFPL because it’ll be reflected on Smogtours as well
UUFPL already requires a challenge code though to allow the BLs
 
Sure I can see just unbanning the UUBLs and giving Wrap another tour to test the new changes since we don't know if the anti-PT sentiment remains with the changes.
 
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Only one tour game has been played but even a good amount of friendlies in UU with the UUBLs I do genuinely think it's a far better tier to what we have now. Wrap can be a little annoying but sleep seems to resolve some of the issues with it since you can attempt wakes through it and generally a shift in how people view Tentacruel even in the "current" UU with less people opting to run it at all.

If a common Wrap counterplay is going to be attempting to wake I want to bring attention to this inaccuracy but overall I find Wrap less problematic than the previous iteration of Lapras UU and the additional bulk in the tier (mainly through Lapras) a great addition. Yes it's bulky and two shots like everything, but so did almost everything in current UU without any of them being bulky mons that can actually stomach hits.
If anything I think Hypno may be problematic, not Lapras, but I'm not gonna call to rush suspects after some friendlies and one entire set in UUFPL.

I really, really don't see a reason to delay just officially dropping them. The environment changes drastically with sleep and we're likely gaining something from OU drops that would only further justify dropping them. All delaying it really does is make spotlight run with a format that we're unlikely to be sticking with and giving less time to test them (the next UU tour is Grand Slam, and by then OU will certainly have a new VR).

Even if you're against allowing Lapras and/or Hypno long-term, surely letting them play in spotlight, when we're almost certainly going to drop them one day anyway, would either give you ammo to support suspecting them again, and likely actually permanently removing them from the face of UU, or make you pleasantly surprised that they improve the tier. The timing really makes it hard to justify since the only thing delaying a decision should do is change the spotlight format.
 
Fwiw if we end up getting Jolt and the Squad, i wouldnt be opposed to immediate PT ban. C+ with PT (from mine and others playing before sabel took over.) was FAR worse than without. Banning it instantly is what should be done in the case those drops.
 
A ban on an entire type of moves (or even just Wrap) will certainly be a suspect. From what I can tell though most people seem to at least agree if we get a C+ tier that they'd be in favor of banning Wrap/PT.

I think even if nothing drops (a very unlikely situation) we should suspect it. I found wrapless UU without the BLs better than current UU (this seems to be an unpopular opinion among many people who never played the format) but certainly if we don't get the full C+ mons, the tier would benefit from PT's removal and allowing the UUBLs again. Most people seemed to want a Hypno-centered tier without Wrap in specific, which dropping the BLs alone provides regardless of OU drops.
 
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