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Revisions - Syclant discussion

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Wasn't the argument against Megahorn purely flavor way back in the day?

"OK tennis step right up and lets give it Flare Blitz while we're here because we can"

Yes, and don't tempt me man!

Would it be possible to change Compound Eyes to another ability?

<Swarm>
<No Guard>

Swarm is ass when you die to priority, Torrent is the only ability of that nature that's actually abused, and only because Empoleon resists every priority move except the rare Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave.

No Guard is an interesting proposition, you trade a 50% SR weakness for everything being 100% accurate. However I don't like the "i beat blissey with no drawbacks!" nature of Dynamic Punch. It seems like a bit much. Compoundeyes is fine as it is, and it's actually really good if used in the lead slot, where there isn't any SR.
 
Decisions, decisions.

Firstly, I think it might be better to properly decide first where we are planning to take Syclant, and where it should stand in the metagame once revisions are completed. Are we still resolutely ploughing on with the old concept of 'a mixed sweeper' or are we trying to tweak it a bit so that we increase the learning experience from our actions, or just to make it something a little less ambitious? Personally I am inclined to favour the former, as we already have decent Spiker leads and other support Pokemon about, so we should really try to make Syclant able to achieve exactly what the concept says: Able to sweep teams, with either a physical, mixed or special set.

The similarities to Lucario here are simply irresistable, but I would leave that aside for the moment to allow us to consider the bigger picture. Firstly I cannot see Syclant working as anything but a boosting sweeper, as with its own natural power it is still not difficult to check or beat outright, as opposed to something like say, Starmie. If we want it to be more of a support-offence Pokemon, such as CB Scizor or Starmie, we should make that clear now, as well as compensating for its defensively disadvantageous typing). Obviously mixed versions of sweepers such as Salamence are becoming increasingly popular, in order to push the boundaries of wall-breaking, but then again MixAnt doesn't quite cut it, from my experience, in the same way MixMence does, in sheer wallbreaking prowess, given how its typing and stats direct it towards a less directly powerful path. Of the boosting sweepers that currently reside in the OU metagame, the most dangerous are probably DD Gyarados, Salamence, and Kingdra, SD Lucario and possibly SubPetaya Empoleon (Not forgetting the other, rarer sweepers such as NP PorygonZ and Azelf, Agiligross, etc). Most of them are able to sweep whole teams given the correct support, though Syclant cannot. It may just be a case of four-slot syndrome, given that Syclant was built for unpredictability more than raw power, which is a slightly poor exchange when checked by so large a population of the Overused tier.

If we want to go along the sweeper route, and make it effective, I would suggest that its versatility is cut down on slightly in favour of a straightforward 'path of conquest'. Gyarados and other Dragon Dancers benefit from outrunning everything they come across, forcing turns to set up, and taking hits along the way if necessary, which makes them more suited to taking on more offensively-inclined teams. Lucario and other Swords Dancers knock large holes in the opponent's team and are then, given time, able to use great type coverage and pure power to OHKO just about everything, making them better against defensively-inclined teams, especially those that lack not only powerful but also wide-covering priority. Of course, they all have their faults, but as Syclant meets its maker in what it cannot kill outright, making it able to OHKO what it outruns - essentially, a wallbreaking boosting sweeper like Lucario - is the best course of action to take IMO.

I think I am right in saying that the the top walls of OU are Blissey, Bronzong, Celebi, Cresselia, Dusknoir, Forretress, Gliscor, Hippowdon, Latias, Rotom-a, Skarmory, Snorlax, Suicune, Swampert, Tentacruel, Vaporeon and Zapdos. If we remove the Pokemon that are not hit for super effective damage by its STAB moves, we get:

Code:
Blissey
Bronzong
Dusknoir
Forretress
Rotom-a
Skarmory
Snorlax
Suicune
Swampert
Tentacruel
Vaporeon

Here's where moveslot syndrome clicks in. Assuming that we are running Tail Glow here, Superpower/Close Combat is necessary to get rid of Blissey and Snorlax. However, Hidden Power Fire has to be used to beat Gyro Ball Forretress (Skarmory and Bronzong are dealt with just as well by Ice Beam/Bug Buzz respectively). This leaves us with the Bulky Water problem. Tentacruel resists both STAB moves, Superpower and Hidden Power Fire, and has copious amounts of Special Defence to help with the task. Earth Power is necessary to get rid of it, else we lose to the other Pokemon mentioned. Physically defensive Vaporeon and Swampert can usually be got rid of via Bug Buzz, but that does not change the problem.


If we're aiming for optimum type coverage, Ground gives the best coverage with Bug and Ice, also gaining near-perfect coverage with just Ice. However, without Superpower Tail Glow Syclant cannot beat Blissey, who will almost always be Syclant's first switch-in on a stall team. For this reason I would like to improve the Swords Dance aspect of the beast first, as there is still currently no be-all-end-all physical wall, unlike on the special side of things. These are my propositions to improve the Swords Dancer to usable levels:
  • A decent physical Ice-type STAB move. Ice Shard and Ice Punch don't really make the grade as wallbreaking options, and for those who are going to try to revenge-kill you, such as Scarftran, Scizor, and Lucario, Ice Shard isn't helping much. On this point I would propose something along the lines of Megahorn as an option. Two 120-BP STAB moves may seem like overkill, but Megahorn is going to be walled by plenty of things, given the six types that resist it, and Ice should be our preferential move of choice when dealing with wallbreaking. Megahorn and this new move have good concision when talking about your average stall team, so I think that this or something similar is a necessity. And I would never recommend a new move being created unless I found it truly necessary.
  • A slight increase in Attack power. Not so important, this one, but I think it might help, as it does aid in collecting a few extra KOs along the way. 123 Attack seems fair enough.
  • Earthquake. Powerful in the right hands, gets good coverage with Ice, etcetera. Earthquake completes the circle of moves by removing the more annoying Steel- and Fire-types (such as Scarfless Heatran and BulletPunchless Metagross) who resist Syclant's STAB moves. It isn't really that powerful without STAB backing, but is good as a coverage option.
With it the following results are obtained:

Code:
+2 252 LO Jolly Syclant (123 Atk) vs 252/252 Impish Skarmory (Ice, 120 Base Power): 83.53% - 98.20%
+2 252 LO Jolly Syclant (123 Atk) vs 252/252 Impish Forretress (Earthquake): 43.79% - 51.69%
+2 252 LO Jolly Syclant (123 Atk) vs 252/252 Impish Forretress (Fire Fang): 114.12% - 134.46%
+2 252 LO Jolly Syclant (123 Atk) vs 252/252 Bold Blissey (Megahorn): 124.51% - 146.64%
+2 252 LO Jolly Syclant (123 Atk) vs 252/252 Impish Snorlax (Megahorn): 87.79% - 103.63%
+2 252 LO Jolly Syclant (123 Atk) vs 252/252 Bold Suicune (Megahorn): 79.46% - 93.56%
+2 252 LO Jolly Syclant (123 Atk) vs 252/252 Impish Swampert (Megahorn): 93.56% - 110.15%
+2 252 LO Jolly Syclant (123 Atk) vs 252/252 Bold Vaporeon (Megahorn): 103.66% - 122.20%
+2 252 LO Jolly Syclant (123 Atk) vs 252/252 Bold Tentacruel (Megahorn): 140.11% - 165.38%)
+2 252 LO Jolly Syclant (123 Atk) vs 252/252 Impish Dusknoir (Ice, 120 Base Power): 96.94% - 114.29%
+2 252 LO Jolly Syclant (123 Atk) vs 252/252 Bold Bronzong (Megahorn): 94.08% - 110.95%
+2 252 LO Jolly Syclant (123 Atk) vs 252/252 Bold Rotom-a (Ice, 120 Base Power): 110.76% - 130.23%

Broken? On paper, not really. Compoundeyes + Dual Megahorn Moves risks the wrath of Stealth Rock, and Syclant is revenge-killed pretty easily. Running Ice Shard over one of the other moves leaves you totally open to bulky Pokemon that resist Bug and Ground such as Skarmory, and lacking priority moves hurts it deeply. It competes fiercely with Lucario, which I think is a good thing really - it is keeping people on their toes, and is also a pretty good learning experience.

On the subject of Speed, I'm fine with it as it is. I think an increase in Special Attack is appropriate, but not to any great degree; otherwise TGAnt is fine.

Well, those are my thoughts, debate if you will.
 
I support this idea. I also have a name for our new move: Shard Shoot. I do not support Fire Fang, though. If it beats Forry, it beats Scizor. All Clant has to do is spam Fire Fang around and predict the Scizor switch. That ruins its best counter and forces walls to be used more, causing large metagame disruption. If both Spikes and No Guard+DymanicPunch are approved, the metagame will experience a focus on beating Clant. Think RBY Ubers.
 
I support this idea. I also have a name for our new move: Shard Shoot. I do not support Fire Fang, though. If it beats Forry, it beats Scizor. All Clant has to do is spam Fire Fang around and predict the Scizor switch. That ruins its best counter and forces walls to be used more, causing large metagame disruption. If both Spikes and No Guard+DymanicPunch are approved, the metagame will experience a focus on beating Clant. Think RBY Ubers.
[Sarcasm]Oh yes, because Blissey, Arghonaut, Snorlax, and almost every Bulky Water can't stop Syclant.[Sarcasm]
On another note, I support Grass Knot & Energy Ball. Both moves give Syclant a good attack to use against Bulky Waters.
 
Would it be possible to change Compound Eyes to another ability?

One idea would be Swarm since 1) Stealth Rock damage might be helpful for an end game sweep (with substitute) and 2) Swords Dance/Tail Glow + SubSalac can be a nasty sweep combo. Add in Megahorn and it can get pretty brutal for opponents to face.

A more extreme idea would be to swap Compound Eyes for No Guard, also adding Megahorn and maybe Dynamic Punch. It would not outclass Machamp IMO, and it adds a strong fighting move, makes Blizzard usable and there's also Megahorn in there.

Adding No Guard as an ability would be unfair and pointless to some degree. No Guard would lower Syclant's defenses even lower than what it is now and I don't see anything replacing Mountaineer anytime soon. On top of that, Syclant learns Sheer Cold by leveling up. With No Guard, Syclant would have a OHKO move that has 100% ACCURACY. That will not happen ever.
 
How many times do I have to go through the whole "Think about the CAP metagame not standard" thing? Bugmaniacbob, the list of walls you posted lack one important guy, which is called Arghonaut. Argho is like THE counter to Syclant, since it resists its STABs, has the defense to shrug off neutral hits and have Unaware to shut down the only way Syclant could hope to get past him (Boosting moves). At least if you go special you stand a chance (if we give Grass Knot to Syclant, especially), but on the physical side there is no hope. Also, while on the special side sweepers at the level of Syclant are few and far between, on the physical, Syclant has to compete with Scizor, Lucario and so on. Even if Syclant gets the moves you asked for, it would still be inferior to Lucario in most circumstances, and the effort to remove Arghonaut, Syclant, Stratagem (do not forget him too! This is CAP), Kitsunoh (same as before) is not really worth it, when you have much an easier time accomplishing the same job using a more difficult-to-check sweeper like Lucario. Arghonaut is that good.

Also, I would not discard Spikes that easily. Not only Syclant DOES NOT HAVE A FREAKIN' CONCEPT to begin with (I thought it was clear, but judging on bugmaniacbob it isn't), so we are not bound to make it a "mixed sweeper", a "glass cannon" and so on; there are no Spikers in OU with the speed and the power to act as a lead. The fastest ones - Fidgit and Froslass - still have an hard time going past Azelf and Metagross respectively, while Syclant can dent hard Metagross with Earth Power (most Metagross run Occa Berry and not Shuca) and speed tie with Azelf (supposing as of now that we keep Syclant's speed as it is, a decision I am against for reasons I have already said countless times). It is not as if we already have "decent spiker leads" (at least not in my definition of decent, where Azelf, Metagross and Swampert are "decent SR leads"), so please don't reiterate all this nonsense.

@ShadowMaster: No Guard does not lower defenses (besides making moves against Syclant 100% accurate, which is not much of an issue when Bullet Punch is the standard Syclant check), does not have to replace Mountaineer (there's also Compundeyes, you know, which is almost completely outclassed by No Guard), and we can remove Sheer Cold from Syclant's movepool the same way we put it in. So, yes, that could happen.
 
Just to clarify, Arghonaut technically doesn't exist. That goes for every other CAP Pokemon. All of our CAP creations were made to battle in the standard OU metagame, not CAP. It's always been that way, and CAP Pokemon shouldn't even be considered in this discussion at all. Syclant's being revamped for the OU metagame, not the CAP metagame. Even if Arghonaut completely walls Syclant, we shouldn't be making Syclant better against it.

However, if we are considering CAP Pokemon into the revamps of Syclant, Revenankh, and Pyroak, then I guess my point should be ignored. I guess I'm directing this to you, Umbreon Dan; Should we bring up other CAP Pokemon into discussion?
 
I'd be down for allowing High Jump Kick instead of Superpower or Close Combat. Close Combat just seems too badass. Superpower is neat, but the stat drops suck. High Jump Kick meets in the middle: it has 100 base power rather than 120, has an accuracy issue that can be remedied by Compoundeyes, and has a bad side effect if used on a Ghost type. I like it.
 
Compoundeyes is an excellent ability and preferable to No Guard in several ways, not least of which is Scylant not fearing it will have its piddling defenses exploited every single solitary time it switches in even to otherwise sketchy accuracy attacks like Hypnosis, Focus Blast, Will-o-Wisp, and Hydro Pump. No Guard works for Machamp because it has STAB on one of the two moves that would most benefit from No Guard (The other being Zap Cannon), it has decent bulk, and its weaknesses are fairly rare attack types. Syclant has none of those traits, so a one-sided accuracy boost in much more preferable.

Compoundeyes just doesn't have a movepool to exploit with currently, which is something that could use fixing.

I think its mostly as issue of movepool. The stat nerf damaged Scylant a little bit, but it was losing some moves and the total disincentivization of Compoundeyes that turned Syclant into a one-note charlie. I don't really want Syclant to have a powerful, drawback-free physical Fighting move. Hi Jump Kick's negative effect is esoteric, but a miss with it (or hitting Protect or a Ghost) does nothing but make Syclant even weaker. Superpower's drawback opens it up to Pursuit I suppose, but not much else. If you used it with Swords Dance you would still have a +1 120 BP 100 acc Fighting move at your disposal.

Here is an overview of offensive movepool changes suggested that would be good for an initial testing:

Physical Offense:
Megahorn
Stone Edge
Earthquake
Thunderpunch

Special Offense:
Focus Blast
Energy Ball
Grass Knot

I think one more move could be added to special offense, which would help almost purely against other CAP Pokemon: Psychic. Several Bugs get it, but most notably Volbeat (where Scylant breeds to get Tail Glow) does not, if you wanted to restrict it to Breeding. I don't think Psychic 2HKO's Arghonaut unboosted, but it wouldn't open up the can of worms something like Thunderbolt would. You could also add Zen Headbutt to physical if you think its warranted for use on an SD set vs. say Revenankh.
 
Just to clarify, Arghonaut technically doesn't exist. That goes for every other CAP Pokemon. All of our CAP creations were made to battle in the standard OU metagame, not CAP. It's always been that way, and CAP Pokemon shouldn't even be considered in this discussion at all. Syclant's being revamped for the OU metagame, not the CAP metagame. Even if Arghonaut completely walls Syclant, we shouldn't be making Syclant better against it.

However, if we are considering CAP Pokemon into the revamps of Syclant, Revenankh, and Pyroak, then I guess my point should be ignored. I guess I'm directing this to you, Umbreon Dan; Should we bring up other CAP Pokemon into discussion?

Fuzznip, playtesting is done and over for Syclant. From now on, every time you use Syclant, you will use it in the CAP metagame. Why should we care about a non-existant metagame (i.e. standard OU + Syclant) and ignore the actual, played metagame (i.e. standard OU + all CAPs)?

With that philosophy in mind, I don't even understand why should we revise Syclant. We have already playtested it in OU, with decent results. If we are revamping Syclant, it is because we want to make it more viable in the metagame we play in NOW. And that metagame includes also
Revenankh, Pyroak, Fidgit, Stratagem, Arghonaut, Kitsunoh, Cyclohm and Colossoil. Out of these Arghonaut is a perfect counter, Stratagem and Kitsunoh make for decent checks and Colossoil can revenge kill with Sucker Punch or Choice Scarf. This is relevant, and you can't ignore it, lest undermine the entire purpose of the Revision Process.
 
Should we bring up other CAP Pokemon into discussion?

zarator basically covered everything i needed to say here; yes

So apparently we still can't agree on a direction in which to take our icy bug. The discussion right now is a bit too crazy and unorganized for my taste. I was hoping to avoid this, but it's looking like it's going to have to go to a poll.

I now direct the CRC's attention to this bold vote poll; i'll give you guys a day or two so this'll be quick

Rey's idea of "doing both" was not included as the whole point of this debate is to give us some direction here. To me, his idea is basically "let's not have a direction" which is obviously unsuitable. There will of course be some grey area between lead and sweeper, so it's not like i'm just dismissing his opinion, but we need a main goal toward which we can strive.
 
I disagree with No Guard, however, the Ice physical move seems like a good idea. I suggest Frost Claw. And I guess that bar substitute+HP Fire sets, nothing can stop Scizor from destroying Syclant
 
How many times do I have to go through the whole "Think about the CAP metagame not standard" thing? Bugmaniacbob, the list of walls you posted lack one important guy, which is called Arghonaut.

Fair play. I didn't think that we were supposed to be considering CAP Pokemon... given that we're supposed to be learning more about the standard metagame, but I'll let that pass. Oh, and the fact that all the set analyses, Team Options, etc, are written from an OU standpoint, with one section devoted to the CAP metagame. Although Adamant LO Earthquake has a chance to 2HKO standard 252/220 Argho anyway.

At least if you go special you stand a chance (if we give Grass Knot to Syclant, especially), but on the physical side there is no hope.

Syclant is walled (specifically, walled, not revenge-killed) by other stuff on the special side. Blissey beats almost every Syclant anyway (Superpower does about 70%, then paralyse with Thunder Wave or just stall out Superpower with Softboiled. Flamethrower ends it). Snorlax beats it if you lack Superpower, Forry beats it with Gyro Ball if you lack a Fire move, Tentacruel beats it if you lack Earth Power.

Let's put it this way. If we want to classify Syclant as a mixed sweeper, we should make it able to sweep on both ends. Right now the Swords Dancer is inferior to the Tail Glow set, so that's the one I'm trying to improve the most. There is always going to be a check to something, especially one as frail as Syclant.

Also, while on the special side sweepers at the level of Syclant are few and far between, on the physical, Syclant has to compete with Scizor, Lucario and so on.

When has competition been a bad thing? It's not like we're absolutely up to our eyeballs in Swords Dancers, or even that many fast boosting sweepers. Scizor is better occupied in a support role really, and I would not say that it is completely outclassed by Lucario.

Even if Syclant gets the moves you asked for, it would still be inferior to Lucario in most circumstances, and the effort to remove Arghonaut, Syclant, Stratagem (do not forget him too! This is CAP), Kitsunoh (same as before) is not really worth it, when you have much an easier time accomplishing the same job using a more difficult-to-check sweeper like Lucario. Arghonaut is that good.

Lucario is good but not so good that it outclasses everything that is vaguely like it. And both Syclant and Lucario can be used on the same team. Unless I am grievously mistaken, Syclant beats all but Scarf Kitsunoh if it has Earthquake, and Stratagem takes upwards of 80% from Swords Dance Ice Shard. Not to mention that Tail Glow Ant can't do much better. You seem to think that attempting in any way to make Syclant competitively more viable as a sweeper is a waste of time, but I would like to state that

Also, I would not discard Spikes that easily. Not only Syclant DOES NOT HAVE A FREAKIN' CONCEPT to begin with (I thought it was clear, but judging on bugmaniacbob it isn't), so we are not bound to make it a "mixed sweeper", a "glass cannon" and so on; there are no Spikers in OU with the speed and the power to act as a lead. The fastest ones - Fidgit and Froslass - still have an hard time going past Azelf and Metagross respectively, while Syclant can dent hard Metagross with Earth Power (most Metagross run Occa Berry and not Shuca) and speed tie with Azelf (supposing as of now that we keep Syclant's speed as it is, a decision I am against for reasons I have already said countless times). It is not as if we already have "decent spiker leads" (at least not in my definition of decent, where Azelf, Metagross and Swampert are "decent SR leads"), so please don't reiterate all this nonsense.

Passing over the slight on my intelligence, as well as that Syclant was indeed originally designed to be a mixed sweeper, I curiously seem to find myself agreeing that Spikes may be a worthwhile investment on Syclant, if only to make it a more viable choice in different areas. However, I cannot understand the appeal of 'a suicide lead' as a concept. It seems extremely limiting as far as competitive impact is concerned, whereas I would see a standard sweeper with a good number of options as more likely to promote not only positive feedback but also alternative strategies. I still can't see why we can't have a sweeper with support capabilities in any case.
 
OK i want to make my mind on something. Why can´t we make scylant have 121 Base Speed, i mean i had it before and the base speed will help him deal with all the stuff that is going on now (more ev´s will be free) and will also outspeed starmie and azelf. About the moves i support pretty much all of them exept CC becouse i think it would be broken or really extremely threatineng (sticking to superpower is the best choice). I am against changing his ability to No guard since making all of his attacks not miss might get out of our hands (extremely fast sweeper with amazing attack stats and Non-missing dynamic punch nono)
 
Fair play. I didn't think that we were supposed to be considering CAP Pokemon... given that we're supposed to be learning more about the standard metagame, but I'll let that pass. Oh, and the fact that all the set analyses, Team Options, etc, are written from an OU standpoint, with one section devoted to the CAP metagame. Although Adamant LO Earthquake has a chance to 2HKO standard 252/220 Argho anyway.

Max Atk Jolly Syclant LO Earthquake vs 252/220 (414HP/281 Def) Adamant Arghonaut: 26.57-31.40%. Not a 2HKO, not even with Adamant nature on Syclant.

Syclant is walled (specifically, walled, not revenge-killed) by other stuff on the special side. Blissey beats almost every Syclant anyway (Superpower does about 70%, then paralyse with Thunder Wave or just stall out Superpower with Softboiled. Flamethrower ends it). Snorlax beats it if you lack Superpower, Forry beats it with Gyro Ball if you lack a Fire move, Tentacruel beats it if you lack Earth Power.

When I said "you stand a chance" I meant "against Arghonaut" (Grass Knot cleanly 2HKOes the standard 414HP/236 SpDef with no EV investment and a neutral nature).

Let's put it this way. If we want to classify Syclant as a mixed sweeper, we should make it able to sweep on both ends. Right now the Swords Dancer is inferior to the Tail Glow set, so that's the one I'm trying to improve the most. There is always going to be a check to something, especially one as frail as Syclant.

I see what you mean, but in order to thrive Syclant also needs a boost to the Tail Glow set, badly. At least something like Grass Knot

When has competition been a bad thing? It's not like we're absolutely up to our eyeballs in Swords Dancers, or even that many fast boosting sweepers. Scizor is better occupied in a support role really, and I would not say that it is completely outclassed by Lucario.

It is still worse, where there are very few viable NP/TG sweepers in OU.

Lucario is good but not so good that it outclasses everything that is vaguely like it. And both Syclant and Lucario can be used on the same team. Unless I am grievously mistaken, Syclant beats all but Scarf Kitsunoh if it has Earthquake, and Stratagem takes upwards of 80% from Swords Dance Ice Shard. Not to mention that Tail Glow Ant can't do much better. You seem to think that attempting in any way to make Syclant competitively more viable as a sweeper is a waste of time, but I would like to state that

Kitsunoh it's a check, it's not meant to take Earthquake from Syclant the same way Lucario, depsite being a Tyranitar check, is not meant to absorb Earthquake or Fire Punch/Blast. I never said it is a waste of time, just that the main focus should be on the special side, since beating Syclant's special counters (Blissey, Snorlax) just require a strong physical Fighting move, while in order to beat physical checks you have generally to choose between Blizzard and Grass Knot (if it ever gets it).



Passing over the slight on my intelligence, as well as that Syclant was indeed originally designed to be a mixed sweeper, I curiously seem to find myself agreeing that Spikes may be a worthwhile investment on Syclant, if only to make it a more viable choice in different areas. However, I cannot understand the appeal of 'a suicide lead' as a concept. It seems extremely limiting as far as competitive impact is concerned, whereas I would see a standard sweeper with a good number of options as more likely to promote not only positive feedback but also alternative strategies. I still can't see why we can't have a sweeper with support capabilities in any case.

Syclant originally turned out to be a mixed sweeper. There wasn't much direction back at the time. The point of Spikes is allowing Syclant to do something nothing else in OU can (fast spiking in this case). This is the reason why I'm supporting mainly Tail Glow and not Swords Dance, too. And sorry if my rant sounded offensive towards you, but I think that, when you say things a hundred times and people seem to ignore you, this is just a natural reaction I suppose.
 
OK, now would be a good time for calcs:

Max Atk +Atk Thunderpunch Vs. 252/220 Impish Arghonaut: 31-37%.

W/ Life Orb: 41-48%

W/ Band: 47-55%.

Max Atk + Atk Thunderpunch Vs. 252/252 Impish Skarmory: 28-34%

W/ Life Orb: 37-44%

W/ Choice Band: 42-50%.

So Basically, Thunderpunch isn't that great, but it isn't horrible either. It can't quite OHKO Skarmory after SR and SD with LO, though.

So maybe an attack upgrade isn't entirely unwarranted.

Either way I think Max/Max Def Skarmory is going to obliterate Syclant anyway, but there are a few other potential options for Arghonaut:

(assumes Max Atk+ w/Life Orb)

Zen Headbutt:
44-52%

Leaf Blade:
49-58%

Ice/Bug/Grass isn't even that great for coverage (heck, Fire and Steel both resist all three), so Leaf Blade might be viable here. It also gives the physical set a way to deal with Swampert effectively.

So maybe I'm suggesting Leaf Blade here, lol.

Oh, and a calc vs. Rev:

Max Atk+ Zen Headbutt w/ LO vs. 252 HP/0Def Rev:

65-77% (44-52% after one BU)
 
The poll has returned an almost unanimous vote for Syclant to be a sweeper. Never fear, however, as Spikes will still be taken into consideration and will likely be included.

All discussion from this point on should be geared toward making Syclant function as effectively as possible in the role of a sweeper. Discuss the moves and stat spread improvements to make this feasible. An ability change doesn't seem likely.

I'm a bit interested in Leaf Blade. It's not a great move, as you pointed out, but the existence of Leaf Blade in Syclant's movepool might intimidate some of the Arghonaut out there, sort of like the way Gengar's massive movepool makes Blissey users play cautiously. On the other hand, I'm not seeing Zen Headbutt or Thunderpunch as really feasible. Psychic looks like a cool addition for the same reason as Leaf Blade, and I like that it causes zero flavour issues.

Essentially, I think Syclant just needs the sort of movepool that pokemon like Infernape and Gengar have, with a few viable moves but plenty of potential surprises. Superpower + Leaf Blade + Megahorn + Psychic + Focus Blast ought to do the trick. Maybe Grass Knot and a slight increase to Attack. I don't think there's anything to be done about the whole "Scizor" thing, short of a priority Fire move, which I obviously don't think is going to happen.

edit: Oh, I haven't got a problem with Focus Punch either (it makes me think of a modern-day McIceGar)
 
Leaf Blade is actually a decent attack, a base 90 physical Grass-Type move with a High Critical Ratio, and Grass has interesting coverage with Ice-type attacks. Noteably, Water types, however, it allows Scylant to hit Rock types with a physical movepool, without resorting to a Fighting-type attack.

It also seems like the sort of attack Scylant could feasably use. It would never be a staple, but it would be useful.

I still support the addittion of Superpower to Scylant's movepool. Why? Wallbreaking. Blissey in particular:

Stealth Rock Damage to 0 HP (Standard) Wishbliss:
82
HP of Standard WishBliss:
651
HP of WishBliss After Stealth Rock damage:
569

252 Attack Scylant (Mild) vs 252 Defence Bold Blissey:
440-517 Damage

252 Attack Sylant with +Attack Nature
483-568 Damage [JUST short]

Mild 252 Scylant with Life Orb:
572-672 damage (Certain OHKO with Rocks, Slight chance without Rocks)

With a Life Orb, the minimun investment for a Neutral Nature Scylant is 248 Attack EV's, to OHKO Blissey. Bearing in mind that on a Tail Glow set, Sp.Attack EV's are generally made up by boosting, so most of the EV's left can be put into speed, Superpower is greatly useful in helping defeat Blissey, and allowing a Tail Glow Scylant Sweep. Mixed Scylant is also possible, however, it would have to drop a decent level of speed to hit hard enough on both sides.

I am against Close Combat, as Scylant would instead of dropping it's useful attack stat, be dropping it's useless defensive stats.
 
Well, I think some of the HG/SS tutor moves should make their way onto the list. While it's a purely flavour move, String Shot should be added, and I'm considering whether or not Super Fang is too powerful or not.
 
The list I just posted accounts for HGSS moves. Super Fang is a bit too powerful for my tastes though, seeing as you can KO pretty much anything that comes in save Rotom.

Some sample stat spreads for you all to look at also:

70/116/70/114/65/115

This is what we have right now, for reference.

70/116/70/114/64/121

This is what it was in the past. The speed allows you to outspeed all base 115's and save some EVs for your attack/special attack if you're going mixed, OR go from all one side and outspeed base 120's. A variation of this would be 70/116/70/114/65/120, for those of you who don't like stats ending in numbers non-divisible by 5.

70/125/70/110/65/115 OR 70/110/70/125/65/115

This focuses Syclant more to one side. If we wanted to focus it to the physical side, I would push more for Megahorn, if we wanted to focus it to the special side, I would push more for Focus Blast. FYI new move is unnecessary and out of the question.

Note that these are rough spreads and can be fiddled around with. I was just demonstrating the two directions we could go. Making Syclant more defensive with a 4x SR weak would require a ridiculous overhaul.
 
Thanks tennis; I'll now be taking stat spread submissions for the poll. Submit a new spread the way you would for a CAP.
The current and pre-nerf spreads will both be in the poll, so don't submit them.
 
I don't think this is worthy of a new submission or anything, but will there be:

70/125/70/110/65/115 OR 70/110/70/125/65/115

these options, but with 121 speed instead?
 
I'm going to try submitting an EV spread, and I've come up with this: 70 / 115 / 70 / 115 / 65 / 120

The differences I made was that I made both of Syclant's offensive stats the exact same, base 115, so Syclant can go either physical or special with great power. There's also room for it to go mixed if people want it to. Lastly, I changed Syclant's Speed from 115 to 120. That way, Syclant can be EVed to outpace all base 115's, since not much stand in the 120 range (Alakazam and Dugtrio?), and still have 40 leftover EVs to input into Attack or Special Attack. There's no point in giving it 121 Speed really, since like I said, Alakazam and Dugtrio are the only notable base 120s, who are not even that common in the CAP metagame.

Here's an example moveset with that EV spread change:

Syclant @ Life Orb | Mountaineer
40 Atk / 252 SpA / 216 Spe | Naive
- Tail Glow
- Ice Beam
- Bug Buzz
- Superpower

With 40 Attack EVs and Superpower, Syclant has a 41% chance to OHKO the standard WishBliss (does 79.57% - 93.70%) with SR in play. So if Blissey takes a tiny bit of prior damage, Blissey will be of no issue.

I believe this EV spread is pretty effective, as it still gives Syclant the ability to outpace Azelf and friends and deal excellent damage. It also makes Syclant much better as a Spiker lead, since it will outpace Starmie and the aforementioned Azelf.
 
Ugh, I had a bunch of calcs for my spread when my computer had a spaz attack. Basically, it gets all the vital OHKOs and 2HKOs needed against Blissey, Celebi, T-Tar, Latias, Forretress, and Skarm. Forretress is the best of that buch against this spread.

My Stat spread is:
70/127/70/107/65/115
PS: 248-Amazing
PT: 100-Above Average
SS: 201-Fantastic
ST: 93-Below Average

A little description:

These stats provide Syclant with much more attack, almost nearing Scizor's attack. However, Syclant does not have a good Physical STAB, nor does he have decent defenses. But this high attack makes a CBClant set viable, which probably is the set that gives Syclant its best chance against its normal counters.
Syclants base SpA is lower now, but it still gives him plenty, esspecialy considering you will likely have some sort of boost. And it is still higher than Infernape and Rotom-A, so its definately above average.
Syclants speed saw no boost in my spread. But its unneeded with his high attack. Azelf has no business being in on Syclant as it risks Syclant having Ice Shard, or a Speed tie. Starmie is more dangerous, but why raise the speed just for a pokemon that can't switch in without risking being hit by a STAB SE attack.
The defenses suck. No change.

This spread makes physical sets viable, so Syclant is more diverse and has fewer 100% sure switch-ins. 116 attack isn't going to cut it.
 
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