Skarmory is really awesome it sets up spikes the easiest, stops physical a lot of physical attackers, and I encourage all of my apprentices to have a skarmory killer and not to be walled to death. Spiritomb doesnt have that good of attack, doesnt stop that many threats, and has no reliable recovery. =[
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Revisions to the Threat List
- Thread starter Jumpman16
- Start date
311 Satk is awesome, what are you talking about? I put just 68 Satk EVs into my tomb, and it OHKOs Alakazam, Gengar, and Azelf all the time. Some get greedy and stay in, trying to shadow ball or flamethrower, and I get a kill. Then I get in later on and pain split something to get full health again.
Also, here's something you didn't know it could do: suck 4 PP off of Specsmence. It survives a Draco Meteor, Pain splits, and survives another. That's 4/8 PP used up, and it accomplished nothing. That's why people use it as a lead sometimes.
Heck, later on you could sacrifice tomb to specsmence and use up another two PP.
Also, here's something you didn't know it could do: suck 4 PP off of Specsmence. It survives a Draco Meteor, Pain splits, and survives another. That's 4/8 PP used up, and it accomplished nothing. That's why people use it as a lead sometimes.
Heck, later on you could sacrifice tomb to specsmence and use up another two PP.
It's possible for Spiritomb to win straight up against Garchomp. (I would know. Pain Split and Sucker Punch allowed me to do it once.)
Ok, we get it, you like Spiritomb. But I hate to break it to you, as much as you like it, it's simply not as good as other pokemon out there. You say it can Pursuit Azelf and Gengar? Snorlax does that and hits way harder. It can Calm Mind up to have decent defense along with great SpDef? Suicune and Cresselia can do that to, only with much higher defense. Spiritombs only real use nowadays is a decent counter to Deoxys-E really, and even pokemon like Jirachi and Metagross can do it better. I think we can all agree that Pain Split isn't the greatest recovery move out there. Taunt, Hypnosis and Will-O-Wisp are all great moves, but Spiritomb just can't do it all. Pain Split is a stable on any set, unless you're running ResTalk. That means either 1 or 2 moveslots are already gone, leaving you with not to much to work with. And EV'ing for Spiritomb is a bitch. It's defenses are on the point where they're mediocre. Horrible base HP and no recovery is meh. Don't get me wrong, Spiritomb is a good pokemon, and horribly annoying with the right set, but I wouldn't put it on a defensive threat list along with Celebi, Hippowdon, Gliscor, Blissey, ect.
As far as your Skarmory argument goes, I disagree as well. Skarmory isn't the god that it was in ADV, this is true. Is it still a good defensive pokemon nontheless. It got Roost, which was desperatly needed. Combined with the option of Spikes or Stealth Rock, Whirlwind, Brave Bird, Drill Peck, or even Swords Dance if you want a gimmick set. Compared to Gliscor and Hippowdon, Skarmory is number 14 on shoddys usage statistics. Gliscor weighs in at 16th, Hippowdon sits back at 24th.
Speaking of defensive pokemon, this brings me to my next point. People have been removing defensive tanks or walls like Blissey, Celebi, Jirachi, Swampert, ect. because they don't pose an offensive threat. However, these pokemon are very much used in todays metagame, and shouldn't be looked over in my opinion. So instead of removing defensive pokemon from this list, why don't we make 2 "threat" lists? One offensive, one defensive. Obviously it's not likely you're going to be swept by something like Skarmory, Blissey or Gliscor, but does that mean they should be overlooked when building a team? Hell no. That's why I suggest we make two lists. Swampert, Skarmory, Blissey, Gliscor and friends can all leave this list, and go off to their own, instead of having everything cramped together in one list like it was before. Just a suggestion, I'll post my ideas as to what I think should be added to it if anyone likes the idea.
Wow, please stop talking about defensive pokemon. I did write a defensive threat list (that evidently many of you have not so much as clicked on in the over six months it's been up) and we'll get to them in another thread. They are governed by a completely different set of criteria from offensive pokemon in determining their efficacy, so therefore discussing them is outside the scope of this thread.
Oh, that's right. It might help to actually pay attention, damn it. Well, let me reframe my team-building considerations to highlight the offensive threats I take care for when I build a team:
That knocks it from 45 (!) to a more manageable 28. Still a little long, but that should cover just about everything you'll see.
I have about half a mind about bringing up the notion of taking Starmie off, I'm glad to see other people bringing it up for removal. It is a great utility pokemon no-doubt, but I've never been scared of Starmie. It might be up for the "defensive" threat list, but really... its kinda like a better Tentacruel. Awesome utility, but it doesn't sweep teams. You don't need to be prepared for it. It is there to absorb status, spread status (T-Wave), Spin and sometimes perform light tanking abilities with Recover... but even then, Starmie's defensive abilities are probably the most overrated in the current game. (Statistically speaking, it isn't much better than Slack Off Infernape. Granted, Water/Psychic is a good defensive typing compared to fire/fighting)
If you got a Bolt/Beam resist (aka, covering your ass from PorygonZ), I think you got Starmie's offensive game covered as well. Starmie's defensive game is just that: defense, which isn't too threatening. Again, awesome utility, awesome movepool, but not a "threat". Perhaps it deserves a mention on the "Defensive Threat" list if only for its utility as one of the top Spinners.
If you got a Bolt/Beam resist (aka, covering your ass from PorygonZ), I think you got Starmie's offensive game covered as well. Starmie's defensive game is just that: defense, which isn't too threatening. Again, awesome utility, awesome movepool, but not a "threat". Perhaps it deserves a mention on the "Defensive Threat" list if only for its utility as one of the top Spinners.
You have a point here, I might not be playing "quality" battles. I'm either not noticing these pokes, or I'm battling in the wrong place...
I guess all this started because I didn't phrase my first post correctly. I was wrong about the whole tyranitar thing, so there's no point in harping on about it anymore. Soz Jumpman.
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I don't understand why more people don't use rhyperior. It has amazing stats, and solid rock is better than sturdy :P If I'm right, doesn't solid rock turn his x4 weaknesses into x2 or x3? 229 is decent special attack/def for a ground type, and he has the fourth highest non uber attack stat. He has the highest hp of any ground or rock type, and Quakeslide is still a very good attacking combo. He's still an awesome normal/flying/rock resist.
Slowbro needs to be on the list. He's a bulky water with great physical defense, good hp and enough special attack to effectively use surf, psychic, ice beam, hp electric, grass knot, flamethrower and shadow ball. Amnesia and slack off are what really make his case (well, maybe not amnesia...) but his secondary psychic type hurts.
Solid rock reduces super effective attacks to x 1.333 , and x4 attacks to 2.6666
No solid rock goes reduces SE damage by 25% or by 1/4.
x4 damage will become x3 as 4-1=3
x2 damage becomes x1.5
I still class Rhyperior as a threat, STAB on Earthquake and Stone Edge from 140 base atk is a threat to most teams, especially if Megahorn is thrown in there. It is not a major problem however (whilst undeniably a threat) because of that stupid typing.
x4 damage will become x3 as 4-1=3
x2 damage becomes x1.5
I still class Rhyperior as a threat, STAB on Earthquake and Stone Edge from 140 base atk is a threat to most teams, especially if Megahorn is thrown in there. It is not a major problem however (whilst undeniably a threat) because of that stupid typing.
Specs Starmie gave me my only loss with my team so far. It Grass Knot'd my Swampert, Ice Beam'd my Celebi, Surf'd my Heracross and Infernape, then Thunderbolt'd my Togekiss. I eventually stopped it by getting a few Calm Minds with my Jirachi and killing it with Thunder, but then Electivire came in for the easy Earthquake.
Starmie isn't THAT hard to counter, but you best make sure you do, because if you don't, you can be easily swept. I don't see why that logic should be omitted from this discussion, because isn't that what the threat list is about?
Umm, well I'm definitely wondering why you had any of those pokemon in against Starmie, especially if you knew it had Specs.
You're kinda not supposed to keep a pokemon in on Starmie if you know they have super-effective attacks and Choice Specs. I really don't understand why you kept Swampert in.
Sorry, but Starmie is very predictable, and you shouldn't have had that much trouble with it, espcially if you could tell if it was Specs.
Yes, because Grass Knot is basically mandatory on Starmie, so keeping in my full-health Swampert against a Starmie that came in on an Earthquake was just plain idiocy, right? Remember, I led with Swampert and it was the beginning of the match, so I had no way of knowing what kind of Starmie it was.
You're acting like you interpreted my paragraph literally, that it actually was "Kill, switch, kill, switch, kill, switch, kill, switch, kill". We both had to predict and an actual battle went on around it, that's just what happened when it truly comes down to it. That's how I was destroyed by Specs Starmie, it's not like I kept in these Pokemon to their certain deaths, we both had to predict and he got me on all of those.
I don't see why you bothered posting such a useless post in the middle of a conversation, but whatever, no one's blaming you.
yes please, awesome summary of a good counter-argument
Anyway, Jumpman and I sort of formalized a 3-step way to determine if something should be on the threat list or not:
1) the Pokemon must not be countered by either or both of Skarmory and Blissey, still the strongest defensive combination of two Pokemon in existence. *
2) the Pokemon must be common (top50, maybe top60 of Shoddybattle's most recent weighed usage list). No need to prepare someone for a threat they won't face.
3) the Pokemon must not be significantly outclassed by another one. This eliminates Blaziken from the list even if he were top60, because Infernape is there. However, Dragonite may still be there, because while Blaziken's niches (Baton Passing limited stat boosters, Reversal) are very small, Dragonite's ability to both Dragon Dance and Outrage put it in the "apples and oranges" category when compared to Salamence.
* I don't entirely agree with this, seeing as I do want to be able to build a good team with the threat list at once without having to put Skarmory and Blissey in there by default. However, it is a standard that Jump wishes to uphold, and that does indeed break down Yanmega to a big extent...however, he will be added anyway, partly because he is extremely threatening to about anything else at least until its Hidden Power is revealed, partly because of a Tinted Lens Air Slash penetrating Skarmory quite easily while Hypnosis is able to make them both second-guess.
That said, for a defensive threat list, #2 and #3 still apply. 1 not so much, I believe instead the Pokemon has to wall a significant amount of threatening Pokemon.
After further thought, though, I am not sure I completely agree with 2), since there may be a perfectly valid reason an otherwise viable threat is not used. The most telling (and maybe only) example of this would be Slaking. Its brutal power with a CB, fantastic defensive stats and great movepool unquestionably make it an offensive threat. I would argue that the overwhelming reason it's #127 on the weighted list is because of the free setup it can give many other threats in the turn it loafs around. This, though, has absolutely no bearing on the threat Slaking itself poses, and therefore should not be the reason it is not on the Threat List.
Taking an actual look at the weighted list to see, besides Slaking, what's actually under 60 but perhaps still offensively threatening (according to either the current Threat List or the posts in this thread or both): Raikou (62), Slowbro (64), Medicham (76), Azumarill (78), Floatzel (88). All of these are either strong candidates for removal or will likely not garner enough support to be added. This leaves Slaking as the lone pokemon under #60 that's actually a threat. It may be convenient to just say "well Slaking's under 60 so that's that, not a threat" but it would actually be strangely and ironically in keeping with our "tiering" of Slaking thus far: it's the only 600BST+ pokemon (besides Regigigigigas now but yeah) that has never been considered for the uber tier. Now it'd be the only pokemon not in the top #60 to be considered a threat. Funny what an ability can do to a pokemon.
Taking an actual look at the weighted list to see, besides Slaking, what's actually under 60 but perhaps still offensively threatening (according to either the current Threat List or the posts in this thread or both): Raikou (62), Slowbro (64), Medicham (76), Azumarill (78), Floatzel (88). All of these are either strong candidates for removal or will likely not garner enough support to be added. This leaves Slaking as the lone pokemon under #60 that's actually a threat. It may be convenient to just say "well Slaking's under 60 so that's that, not a threat" but it would actually be strangely and ironically in keeping with our "tiering" of Slaking thus far: it's the only 600BST+ pokemon (besides Regigigigigas now but yeah) that has never been considered for the uber tier. Now it'd be the only pokemon not in the top #60 to be considered a threat. Funny what an ability can do to a pokemon.
This is also evidence of the fact that it might be better to just list all threatening Pokemon and only mark the common ones every x [timephrame], or even just refer to Shoddy's statistics. Not only does this mean less work (in both arguing and keeping it up to date) but it will also help newer players protect themselves from people using a Pokemon that is not in the top60 of current use, deserving or not.
Which is cool and seems quite probable too, considering how much people seem to love for arguing BLs and UUs in their OU teams.
Which is cool and seems quite probable too, considering how much people seem to love for arguing BLs and UUs in their OU teams.
The problem with having set usage guidelines is that this threat list would become nothing more than the OU tier list with a cursory explanation about the Pokemon.
Would it be possible to add an updating searchable variable to the StrategyDex involving Shoddy Usage?
That would mean a person could search the StratDex, get the top 30 used easily, and then check out movesets and suggested counters all in one place.
I agree wholeheartedly with this, because a pokemon is never going to become OU if people don't know the threat it can pose, and putting pokemon that aren't necessarily used much, but are still threats would definitely help their usage. Only if they are actually threats though. Kricketune obviously isn't going to make it on there ever.
Correct me is i'm wrong but...
Kingdra? Mixed Rain Dance Kingdra can absolutely devastate teams that aren't prepared for it.
Kingdra? Mixed Rain Dance Kingdra can absolutely devastate teams that aren't prepared for it.