Revisions to the Threat List

[Jolt99]

My point about Tyranitar was that it's usage is dropping. My saying that it's not seen much anymore was an observation, I never said that it was a bad/unuseable poke. It just has that quad weakness that everything with a left foot is able to counter. Sure, its a unique attacking force with a huge movepool, but there are better sweepers out there IMO.

I have an opinion, and I've elaborated on it. Stop flaming me/wanting to disallow me because you don't like what I'm saying. This is supposed to be a discussion.



Also, about slaking: He needs to be added to the list. Max 460 attack with a life orb or CB is too powerful to ignore. With 0 EVs, he sits at 356 attack. Give him 252 in speed with jolly, and he reaches 328, which outspeeds a lot of stuff.
For the stuff he doesn't outspeed he has 150/100/65 (504 hp, which is snorlax and giratina level, 299 def and 229 spdef) defenses and slack off (which isn't affected by SS like moonlight is) to sponge with. Truant becomes neglegible when you're a hit-and-run poke.

He has a great movepool too. Yawn, encore, taunt, pursuit...

The only things stopping slaking from being uber are its ability, and possibly its low special defense.

Needs to be on the list.

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

Tyranitar dropping in usage? Let's consult Shoddy's statistics:

Month--------Rank
Oct 07---------4
Nov 07---------4
Dec 07---------5
Jan 08---------5

If its usage is dropping, I'm not really seeing it, seeing as how the only Pokemon that overtook Tyranitar during that span was Gengar.

As for Slaking, it came in at 127th last month--right in between Electrode and Exeggutor. I, personally, am not worried about Slaking.

Damn, if I wasn't about to go to bed, I'd post what I AM worried about, but I'll save that for a later post. I'm so tired...

 

[Brawley]

My point about Tyranitar was that it's usage is dropping. My saying that it's not seen much anymore was an observation, I never said that it was a bad/unuseable poke. It just has that quad weakness that everything with a left foot is able to counter. Sure, its a unique attacking force with a huge movepool, but there are better sweepers out there IMO.

I have an opinion, and I've elaborated on it. Stop flaming me/wanting to disallow me because you don't like what I'm saying. This is supposed to be a discussion.



Also, about slaking: He needs to be added to the list. Max 460 attack with a life orb or CB is too powerful to ignore. With 0 EVs, he sits at 356 attack. Give him 252 in speed with jolly, and he reaches 328, which outspeeds a lot of stuff.
For the stuff he doesn't outspeed he has 150/100/65 (504 hp, which is snorlax and giratina level, 299 def and 229 spdef) defenses and slack off (which isn't affected by SS like moonlight is) to sponge with. Truant becomes neglegible when you're a hit-and-run poke.

He has a great movepool too. Yawn, encore, taunt, pursuit...

The only things stopping slaking from being uber are its ability, and possibly its low special defense.

Needs to be on the list.

Tyranitar is a great sweeper, and he sets up sand for the team, also You're forgetting about Slaking's ability Taunt, and one free set up turn is dangerous in D/P (Azelf, Dragonite, Garchomp, etc) Also Cressilia walls it pretty badly.

 

[gorm]

the thing with physical normals is that everyone carries a steel type for dragon moves, and if you have garchomp/gross covered odds are you have strong physical normals covered

the "usage droppage" of tar was probably based on your own observations, so i cant really say you're wrong about what you saw (although you should have looked at the stats before making such a claim) but is still dont see how you would decide that it would be worth proposing to remove arguably the most versitile, broken pokemon from the threat list.

using "this is a discussion dont flame me" isnt really a good excuse and doesnt allow you to post whatever you feel like. nothing is physically stopping you but dont get offended at the reaction. we'd treat anyone clamoring for butterfree's addition to the list the same way.

 

[obi]

Jolteon can sweep too people, even with a support set. Because he spends most of the match subbing and baton passing out, I've managed a few sweeps at the end once the field is clear of ground types. If your opponents are down around 50-60%, and you have no ground left, Jolteon is going to sweep you! 319 STABed Thunderbolts are nothing to laugh at, and psuedo-bolt beam for coverage.

Yes, if their team is perfectly set up to be swept by a Pokemon, the Pokemon will sweep. What you've just said says nothing. You might as well have said "If you're not going to win or tie, you will lose!". This is true of any Pokemon. You could say the same thing about HP Poison Unown. As a general rule, you don't post if you're just going to state something that is by definition true.

Anyone running Yanmega with Tinted Lense will hit Skarmory for neutral damage, since the power of it's NFE attacks are now doubled. Bug Buzz or Air Slash will proceed to at least 2HKO Skarmory (I'm not sure exactly how much damage, I won't have IRC access again until tomarrow morning) Speed Boost Yanmega won't hurt Skarmory that much, but can do around 40% with HP Ice IIRC correctly.

Bug Buzz is still resisted. HP Ice would do ~35%, or a 4HKO with Leftovers. Meanwhile Skarmory OHKOs with Brave Bird, can Roost, and can set up Spikes / Stealth Rock with little risk of death.

Also, to what you said about Yanmega being "special" I know what you mean, why is Yanmega so much more threatening than other special attackers? It's both of Yanmega's abilitys. Speed Boost allows Yanmega to get faster every turn. Essentially after 2 turns, Yanmega is going to outspeed anything, so the threat of something faster like Gengar, Garchomp, or even Deoxys-E coming in and revenge killing it is minimal.

Yanmega is so frail that if it doesn't KO something, it's probably going to get KOed itself, so you mostly will have 1 Speed Boost, which makes it still slower than quite a few Scarf Pokemon and Deoxys-S. Of course, I've never relied on "revenge-killing" to stop something unless I'm using Dugtrio.

If the user decides to run Tinted Lense, you can throw the whole idea of relying on resistances to switch in and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. Tinted Lense makes Yanmega hit so much harder. It's less about prediction, and more about "What do I have left that can take a 135 BP Bug Buzz from over 530 SpAtk?" That's what sets Yanmega apart from other special sweepers in D/P.

There are some 4x Bug resists. Skarmory, Moltres, Charizard, Heatran, and Gengar. Add in Blissey, the second most common Pokemon after Garchomp, who doesn't need resistances, and you've got a pretty good set of counters there.

I'm just gonna talk about floatzel because i've used it a lot, and it sweeps a lot of teams who just don't know what to do against it.

Again, the "it beats stupid people" isn't an argument that would support the addition of a Pokemon. Either it doesn't beat people who do know what to do about it (and we can assume the stupid people are going to lose, anyway), in which case it doesn't really warrant addition, or it can beat people who aren't stupid, in which case that was a needless qualifier that really just means you don't fully believe in what you are saying and thus needed to add weasel words in case you end up being wrong.

Frankly, in the current D/P, people hardly pack a bulky water this days, and when they do, it's Swampert. CB Adamant Floatzel with Rain Dance support actually 2HKO's almost every wall with Waterfall. To make things worse, it's speed is already incredibly high, such that it outspeeds everything with Swift Swim. Only Water and Grass types has a slight chance to outstall it until the rain stops. (Vaporeon is the number one counter because of Water Absorb).

Celebi is a pretty common Pokemon, and can stay in on Floatzel all day. This is especially true when you consider you are using CB + Rain Dance Floatzel, meaning you are supporting it with another team member. This means that your opponent gets a two-turn warning of what you're about to do. Pretty much whatever they are using to counter DD Gyarados is going to cover Floatzel considering how you telegraph your switch with Rain Dance (and Floatzel is significantly less bulky, so if they do have a Floatzel weakness, they can nail it on the switch with some degree of confidence). I don't see how it's a particularly important addition in light of this.

Gallade. As noted before, this dude can wreck apart unprepared teams like no business. It is more versatile as Medicham, which is its main selling point.

Please, please, please, stop saying "If you aren't prepared for it you will lose!". There isn't a single Pokemon to which this statement does not hold true. Real threats are threatening in their own right, they don't need the ideal conditions that will only occur in one out of twenty battles. Most teams will be prepared for Gallade because they are prepared for Heracross, Machamp, and Infernape. If you are going to suggest adding Gallade to the list, you have to prove that it poses a unique threat compared to the others on the list, not just "It beats you if you lose to it!".

Tentacruel. If you can't cope with it, say goodbye to the match.
Scizor. He's pretty high on the weighted usage list for a reason. Same reason as Kingdra.

How is Tentacruel a threat offensively. The only real offensive set it gets is Swords Dance, but Cross Poison is about the extent of its physical movepool. How are you planning on sweeping with the worst attacking type in the game, Poison?[/QUOTE]

You make a good point on the Yanmega case. I would just like to add that generally a Yanmega not using Speed Boost is not likely to get Phazed or have its item Knock Off by the likes of Hariyama (Air Slash), Tentacruel (HP Ground), or Gliscor (HP Ice), making it more of a viable sweeper.

I'm going to have to ask how often you actually play competitive Pokemon. Knock Off in general is a rare move. It is used even more rarely on offensive Pokemon (it's more effective on stallers). Offensive Pokemon are better dealt with by just attacking them. Tentacruel would use Ice Beam. Gliscor would Aerial Ace, Stone Edge, or Stealth Rock. Hariyama would Stone Edge or Payback.

Note that I'm almost exclusively seen battling on shoddy's official server

Tyranitar - Taking t-tar off the list could be viable IMO. It's usage is dropping fast, I never see it anymore. It seems to me that it's been outclassed as a BST600 attacker by garchomp, and as a sandstreamer by hippowdon.

Tyranitar is the fifth most used Pokemon as of the most recent stats. Don't make subjective claims about information to which we already have objective data that refutes your claim. It also fills a fairly different role from Garchomp and Hippowdon. For instance, it can Dragon Dance, Pursuit, take Ice Beams, use STAB Stone Edge, use STAB Crunch, or Taunt.

I'm actually going to not respond to the rest of your post because you then make a similar anecdote about Gyarados being rare, despite it being the fourth most used Pokemon, after Garchomp, Blissey, and Gengar.



I didn't read page 4 yet.

 

[Dragontamer]

There are some 4x Bug resists. Skarmory, Moltres, Charizard, Heatran, and Gengar. Add in Blissey, the second most common Pokemon after Garchomp, who doesn't need resistances, and you've got a pretty good set of counters there.

All of those except Blissey are 2-hit KOed by Specs Tinted Lens Air Slash. Even if we assume Bug Buzz... 252 HP Skarm is 2-hit KOed with Stealth Rocks in play, Charizard is 2-hit KOed with a defense drop or with Stealth Rocks (duh).

Moltres and Heatran are both 2-hit KOed by Specs Air Slash.

For crying out loud, this thing can 2-hit KO 252/252 + Nature Empoleon and Bronzong with Tinted Lens Specs Bug Buzz, and even some of the 4x resists with Stealth Rocks (Skarm) or hax (Charizard). And there are no pokemon that 4x resist both Air Slash and Tinted Lens. Yanmega literally gains perfect coverage with 2 STAB attacks with Tinted Lens.

 

[X-Act]

I'll just say that anything that is not among the first 60 Pokemon in the weighted list should be taken off the threat list, practically with no questions asked. If they are not often used, then they're not a threat, since otherwise they WOULD be used, no?

Likewise, any Pokemon that is considered for inclusion should be among the first 60 Pokemon in the weighted list. I'm not going to elaborate further, since it's been a long time since I played on Shoddy.

 

[sa17dk]

I'll just say that anything that is not among the first 60 Pokemon in the weighted list should be taken off the threat list, practically with no questions asked. If they are not often used, then they're not a threat, since otherwise they WOULD be used, no?

Likewise, any Pokemon that is considered for inclusion should be among the first 60 Pokemon in the weighted list. I'm not going to elaborate further, since it's been a long time since I played on Shoddy.

I was actually wondering the same thing myself. For example in the case of Slaking, although by theory it should be on the threat list because of its sweeping potential, the fact that it doesnt really show up says something about it. Ignoring the fact that it already gets neutered because of all the steels used to counter Dragons, why think about Slaking when chances are I wont see it?

To be more specific, if a pokemon is number 150 (I'm just using a random number) do people actually consider it when making a team? I sure as hell wouldnt really care about a pokemon that's rare when I have things like Gengar/Gyarados/Tar/Chomp/etc, who are likely to show up in 90% of my battles, to deal with first.

Judging by the fact that the mods have decided to revise the threat list, would it be too hard to have a constantly changing threatlist (every few months or so) based on Shoddy usage? I dont mean drastic changes or anything, I just mean if Pokemon A drops significantly in usage while Pokemon B rises significantly, then you could do a simple edit to the threat list.

 

[Amelia]

I'll just say that anything that is not among the first 60 Pokemon in the weighted list should be taken off the threat list, practically with no questions asked. If they are not often used, then they're not a threat, since otherwise they WOULD be used, no?

Likewise, any Pokemon that is considered for inclusion should be among the first 60 Pokemon in the weighted list. I'm not going to elaborate further, since it's been a long time since I played on Shoddy.

Hmm, 60 looks like a good stopping point for me. It stops at
- Empoleon (7374177 points).

50 would remove the following from the list
- Alakazam (51)
- Aerodactyl (52)
-Rhyperior (54)
-Staraptor (55)
-Mismagius (56)

Also, about the Normal Choice Banders, i think it's better to include one of them (Staraptor), so that you at least know that you might have to block one of them. Granted, putting in all 3 is dumb, and putting in 2 of them is still dumb. If you managed to block one of them, you would have blocked all 3 of them.

Edit: The following of the threat list are not even in the top 60: Raikou, Tauros, Medicham, Slowbro, Sceptile, Slaking.

 

[Gmax]

Staraptor doesn't really count as a normal CBer, it rarely uses Return/DE. The most common Flying resists are Rock and Steel, both of which resist Return/DE, so it'd probably use Close Combat/U-Turn way more often that Return.

EDIT: I'd recommend adding Roserade to that list. It has the raw Special attack of Azelf with which it can launch a 210 BP attack that has no immunities(all right it has 7 resists, but 105 BP isn't ALL that bad). Now if you add Specs into the equation, you're looking at a 210 BP attack coming off 520+ SAtk when Timid. Modest gives you 570+ SAtk, but then you're losing out on the chance to outspeed Neutral Mence etc. etc., not really worth it. However, that isn't the end of it. Roserade also gets access to some very useful support moves, such as Sleep Powder and Toxic Spikes. When you start off with a Focus Sash Roserade, you have the freedom to do absolutely anything on the first turn, except when facing fast sleepers. As Slice mentioned, TSpikes can seriously hit the durability of the opponent's team, and Sleep Powder is pretty reliable I guess. Roserade can also absorb TSpikes, which just adds to his utility. Its one very strong, annoying Pokemon.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

(...) but Cross Poison is about the extent of its physical movepool. How are you planning on sweeping with the worst attacking type in the game, Poison?

I thought it learned Waterfall. Water+Poison ends up as a good type combo, as only (correct me if I'm wrong, I don't have access to a type chart now) Empoleon and Giratina resist it.

 

[Amelia]

I thought it learned Waterfall. Water+Poison ends up as a good type combo, as only (correct me if I'm wrong, I don't have access to a type chart now) Empoleon and Giratina resist it.

Tentacruel (the irony) resists it too. So does Quagsire (with water absorb), Dialga... think that's it?

Edit: Starmie, Slowbro, Slowking

 

[Amelia]

Err oops, then remove Starmie/Slowbro/Slowking from the list.
But yeah, ground does resist poison, i'm sure of that.

 

[IggyBot]

Bug Buzz is still resisted. HP Ice would do ~35%, or a 4HKO with Leftovers. Meanwhile Skarmory OHKOs with Brave Bird, can Roost, and can set up Spikes / Stealth Rock with little risk of death.

Air Slash: 50.3% - 59.28% (85% chance of 2HKOing)
Specs Air Slash: 75.15% - 88.32%
Life Orb Air Slash: 65.27% - 76.95%

I was wrong saying Yanmega 2HKO's Skarmory with Bug Buzz, I forgot that Skarmory 4x resisted the type at the time of the post. However, Air Slash will still 2HKO Skarmory regardless of your item.

Yanmega is so frail that if it doesn't KO something, it's probably going to get KOed itself, so you mostly will have 1 Speed Boost, which makes it still slower than quite a few Scarf Pokemon and Deoxys-S. Of course, I've never relied on "revenge-killing" to stop something unless I'm using Dugtrio.

Yanmega has a 70% chance at surviving a Return from a max attack, Choice Banded Snorlax. It survives a Dragon Claw from a max attack, Adamant CB Garchomp. More realistically, it survives an Ice Shard from an Adamant, CB Mamoswine running 394 attack. SpDef wise, Yanmega is shit, but it does have 86/86 defense, which is better than Azelf's 75/70, Gengar's 60/60, Infernape's 76/71, and many others.

Speed Boost Yanmega is normally either running Protect, Detect, or sometimes Substitute. All of these can be used to get potentially 3 speed boosts. Protect, KO, Protect again when something faster comes in.

There are some 4x Bug resists. Skarmory, Moltres, Charizard, Heatran, and Gengar. Add in Blissey, the second most common Pokemon after Garchomp, who doesn't need resistances, and you've got a pretty good set of counters there.

Already posted Skarmory calcs.

Moltres vs. Air Slash: 44.86% - 52.65%
Specs: 66.67% - 78.5%

Gengar vs. Air Slash: 60.92% - 71.65%
Specs: 90.8% - 106.9%

Charizard vs Air Slash: 48.48% - 56.9%
Specs: 72.05% - 84.85%

Heatran (min/min) vs. Air Slash: 36.84% - 43.65%
Specs: 55.11% - 65.02%

ResTalk Heatran (EV's from Analysis): 46.35% - 54.69% (this is with Specs)

Yanmega still has a shot at 2HKOing standard ResTalk Heatran with Specs Air Slash. As Dragontamer said, everything you listed that 4x resists Bug is in fact 2HKO'd by Yanmegas other STAB in Air Slash, which is the attack you're most likely using if you're not Bug Buzzing.

 

[AJC]

god tinted lens is a really borked ablity haha

 

[Jolt99]

If you don't want to read my bitching, there's some relevant stuff about halfway down ;)

using "this is a discussion dont flame me" isnt really a good excuse and doesnt allow you to post whatever you feel like. nothing is physically stopping you but dont get offended at the reaction. we'd treat anyone clamoring for butterfree's addition to the list the same way.

All I was saying about tyranitar was that IMO he could be going the same route rhyperior did. This doesn't mean that I'm overlooking his stats and movepool, it means that they share some pitfalls.
IIRC rhy was ditched by so many players because solid rock turned out to be a letdown, his poor special defense and speed, as well as having quad weaknesses to common attacking types. At no time did I say that I think he should be removed, just that it could be a possibility.

You battle exclusively on Shoddy and you make this outrageous suggestion! [is it outrageous because you love t-tar?]Neither Garchomp nor Hippowdown can claim the move pool Tyranitar does. He is VERY capable of attacking from both sides of the spectrum. You have to be insane to claim Tyranitar should be taken off. [I didn't]For fuck's sake man he is the only Pokemon up for uberization 3 generations in a row. The Sand Stream boost to his Special Defense insures he will be surviving tons of hits. Look at his Base 134 Attack and Base 95 Special Attack. Look at his defenses 100/110/100 do you know any Pokemon that isn't Uber with those Defenses?[Umbreon, suicune, regigigas, cresselia, uxie, celebi, jirachi, shaymin, torterra, mesprit, meganium, regice, blastoise, articuno, dragonite...] Exactly. I think that suggestion alone bans you from any further discussion.[Why? because I wasn't clear enough? I can elaborate. Ask me.]

Yeah, Ike and Tina has a point about you Jolt99, I am not sure I want you posting in this thread[Do my opinions need your approval?] if you are going to make the argument[Read my first post again and quote where I made an argument.] that the #1 pokemon besides Garchomp for banishment to uber isn't a threat.[when did I say that?]

These posts kinda set me off. I mean what the fuck happened here??? I post a personal observation, it gets misread (by a moderator,) then people are after me with torches and pitchforks! o_O

I don't come to these forums to cause arguments and uproar. I come here to share my experiences and opinions, just like everyone else does.
I'm not a close minded person. I don't think that the word of the smogon strategy section and analyses is god. Just because something has an uber tag doesn't make it uber without parole. Just because ariados is listed as NU doesn't mean that it rolls over and dies when the likes of salamence does so much as look at it, or that it can not and should not be used under any circumstance by serious battlers. Thunder fang isn't listed in mamoswine's analysis. Does this mean that I can't use it if I want to win?

My milotic sometimes runs confuse ray. I use toxic spikes on my roserade. I use dragon rush on garchomp.

I've also used darkrai and non SD latias on shoddy OU. I battled people. they played normally. Then I battled some guy. I revealed darkrai lategame (he had a blissey) and he leaves the room, ranting about my cheating for using an UBER!!111!1! A conversation starts in the main chat, a few people post their opinions, then one guy tells everyone to ignore me because I'm clearly an idiot/noob.

Am I not allowed to have an opinion or express my views?

I stated that it appears to me that Tyranitar's usage is slipping, possibly because it has a quad weakness to a very common attacking type, and it's slow. Hippowdon can also sandstream, and he's more valuable to a team than t-tar (I.E. he fills a more important role.)
But just because Tyranitar has an amazing movepool, great stats, and decent STAB, my point becomes null and void, transforms into an outrageous claim and then I need to be removed for trying to get rid of precious little twannie tah!



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I think that a poke's removal from the threat list should be based on the individual pokemon, not on a usage list. Being lower than 60 doesn't mean that no-one is using it. Alakazam, for instance, definately needs to be on the list not only because he's an excellent special sweeper, but because he can also trick specs onto your blissey or cress or anything that doesn't want them.

I know that the list is supposed to be for the current metagame, but maybe it should be an OU poke list, simply because these pokemon are threats (not all of them obviously, but different pokes consider other pokes threats self-respective.)
I'm thinking this might be used for the counters section of the D/P poke analyses on the site, which is kinda what I'm basing this on.

Low usage could constitute removal, but quoting the OP by Jumpman16:
"I think it's time we reconsider which pokémon are genuine offensive threats today and which are not quite as threatening as I once thought they could be"

No mention of usage. The list should encompass any legitimate threats because they're threats regardless of usage. Alakazam and staraptor are genuine offensive threats. They just don't get used as much as gengar or garchomp.

I guess what I'm saying is that the cutoff point should be lower than 60. I'm not saying that butterfree should make the list because it can sleep, or that scarf hitmonchan should be on the list because it can take down weavile with mach punch.

Maybe "pokes that need counters" would be a good benchmark. Something like garchomp makes the list because if you don't counter it, it kills your team. Blissey wouldn't make the list because if you don't counter it, it just sits there tossing your pokes or shooting weak ice beams.

Thoughts? or am I still an idiot?

 

[IggyBot]

All I was saying about tyranitar was that IMO he could be going the same route rhyperior did. This doesn't mean that I'm overlooking his stats and movepool, it means that they share some pitfalls.
IIRC rhy was ditched by so many players because solid rock turned out to be a letdown, his poor special defense and speed, as well as having quad weaknesses to common attacking types. At no time did I say that I think he should be removed, just that it could be a possibility.

The fact that you even mentioned the possibility is what is setting people off against you. It should be obvious to anyone that Tyranitar is one of the best pokemon in the game, and a big threat to every team.

I don't come to these forums to cause arguments and uproar. I come here to share my experiences and opinions, just like everyone else does.
I'm not a close minded person. I don't think that the word of the smogon strategy section and analyses is god. Just because something has an uber tag doesn't make it uber without parole. Just because ariados is listed as NU doesn't mean that it rolls over and dies when the likes of salamence does so much as look at it, or that it can not and should not be used under any circumstance by serious battlers. Thunder fang isn't listed in mamoswine's analysis. Does this mean that I can't use it if I want to win?

My milotic sometimes runs confuse ray. I use toxic spikes on my roserade. I use dragon rush on garchomp.

Good for you. Many people here use movesets not listed in the analysis. Analysis's are written to give an outline of the pokemon, and to show what it does most effectivly.

I've also used darkrai and non SD latias on shoddy OU. I battled people. they played normally. Then I battled some guy. I revealed darkrai lategame (he had a blissey) and he leaves the room, ranting about my cheating for using an UBER!!111!1! A conversation starts in the main chat, a few people post their opinions, then one guy tells everyone to ignore me because I'm clearly an idiot/noob.

Am I not allowed to have an opinion or express my views?

No, you are. But the problem is, most of the battling community right now sees Darkrai, Latios and Latias as uber pokemon. By using them in a supposed "OU" battle, you are no longer playing OU in anyone elses eyes. And the fact that he had Blissey left means nothing, considering one of the most standard sets for Darkrai is Substitute / Dark Void / Focus Punch / Dark Pulse, you could've easily wiped the floor with Blissey for all he knew. True, maybe he should've stayed, but then again, maybe you shouldn't of used what is widely regarded as an uber pokemon in a OU battle.

I stated that it appears to me that Tyranitar's usage is slipping, possibly because it has a quad weakness to a very common attacking type, and it's slow. Hippowdon can also sandstream, and he's more valuable to a team than t-tar (I.E. he fills a more important role.)
But just because Tyranitar has an amazing movepool, great stats, and decent STAB, my point becomes null and void, transforms into an outrageous claim and then I need to be removed for trying to get rid of precious little twannie tah!

You mention here, and I believe in your original post that Tyranitar's usage is slipping. Am I right in saying that is part of your basis for suggesting the possibility of removal from the threat list? If I am right, you also contradicted yourself down if your first paragraph of "relevant stuff"



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I think that a poke's removal from the threat list should be based on the individual pokemon, not on a usage list. Being lower than 60 doesn't mean that no-one is using it. Alakazam, for instance, definately needs to be on the list not only because he's an excellent special sweeper, but because he can also trick specs onto your blissey or cress or anything that doesn't want them.

Right there.

I'll add more to this post later.

 

[Colonel M]

Alright! Threat List suggestion!

First off before I go on, I'm discussing mainly about sweepers and tanks (like many have before), so yeah.

Tyranitar
Gyarados
Infernape
Azelf
Rhyperior
Electivire
Heracross
Salamence
Togekiss
Gengar
Garchomp
Raikou
Lucario
Tauros
Starmie
Weavile
Dugtrio
Alakazam
PorygonZ
Medicham
Staraptor
Slowbro
Machamp
Jolteon
Aerodactyl
Snorlax
Zapdos
Blissey
Suicune
Sceptile
Breloom
Slaking
Tangrowth
Ninjask
Metagross
Heatran
Celebi
Jirachi

^ Alright, that's the list that I refered to BTW.

MY THOUGHTS ABOUT THE PENDING REMOVALS:

Rhyperior: Yeah, I hate to admit this guy to be added on to the "removed" group, but it's true. Swords Dance + Life Orb with Stone Edge and Earthquake for STABs is still threatening IMO. OHKOing Gliscors are definately a laugh-off too. Let's not forget that he can Rock Polish. In a mere sense, I never classified Rhyperior as a wall, NEVER. To me he was moreso of a tank. With Sandstream support and some Special Defense investment, he can take some hits to an extent, and the fact that Solid Rock DOES make a small impact for him. However, I won't say that he should get knocked down due to Speed and the amount of weaknesses, the reason to me would be that he requires a bit more support than some "set-up and sweep" type of Pokemon.

OPINION: Sorry to say, but I'd remove him from the list.

Raikou: Sandstorm does really nerf him, and the presence of Abamosnow didn't help much either with auto-hail. He doesn't have the sturdiest Substitutes either and can't beat Blissey one-on-one the vast majority of the time. Even Snorlax can poke fun at Raikou. Calm Minding does hurt from a fast Pokemon, but he doesn't have the set-up time like he did in ADV.

OPINION: Unless you want to mention him for the sake of "to throw Jolteon in the list", I'd scrap him. Not as much of a beast as he used to be.

Tauros: Yeah, the reason should be obvious on this one. 100 Attack is definately pointless, even if your STAB does over 150 damage.

OPINION: Pfft, throw him out. This isn't RBY anymore. Though to make me not sound so harsh to Tauros, at least he got Anger Point as a gambling ability.

Alakazam: Mixed opinion. You really have to make sure that Blissey will be locked onto Softboiled otherwise the Trick strategy won't work. Encore is cool and all, but STAB Psychic to me isn't saying much. It's not a bad Pokemon though, I gotta admit.

OPINION: One of my mixed ones. I'd keep him on the list since he does have a reason to be threatening (Trick is just evil).

Medicham: Losing Shadow Ball impacted him so badly it's not funny anymore. To me, he's SEVERLY outclassed by Heracross and Gallade, since Medicham is so damn frail and not extremely fast.

OPINION: Nerf it. Putting Gallade and Heracross on the list basically covers Medicham.

Staraptor: God, this is where I get thrown off. Close Combat really helps our great bird here, and STAB Brave Bird really can put a world of hurt to others, but when you think about the fact that he takes residual damage like crazy, it makes you think twice before using him. Intimidate helps, but not as much as I thought it would at times.

OPINION: Mixed. He's a good one to keep though, since you can basically note how to handle any Choice Banded bird.

Slowbro: ...

OPINION: Off. Now. He has no reason to go offensive with Calm Mind, tempting as it may be. The Pursuit weakness puts a big old thorn on him. However, frankly speaking, he has an advantage over Suicune, which is Slack Off, a more reliable recovery move. Still, Suicune covers what Slowbro "could" do.

Machamp: No Gaurd and DynamicPunch are a "Dynamic" combo, as well as a 100% Stone Edge and even Fire Blast if you're tempted, but Speed is his greatest fall. If the metagame had a slight slower pace, he might excell better. Parafusion is definately something not to shrug off however.

OPINION: Keeps. To be honest, he is different from other Fighters simply from the fact that he's a bit more bulky than some like Lucario. SleepTalking sets are very effective, and even if you want to consider it, parafusion is not funny at all.

Jolteon: I guess to me, stating about Raikou and Zapdos sums up what Jolteon does. Faster, but still not much going for him. Volt Absorb is nice but that doesn't mean he wants to switch into things like a Metagross all day.

OPINION: I'd take him off. If you cover even Zapdos, you basically summed up what Jolteon would've done.

Aerodactyl: 130 Speed is nice, but his Attack just isn't... enough. His Rock STAB is nice, but Stealth Rock is nothing more but a dent for our flying friend. Though it's a nice note that using Fire Fang can help get around Bronzong at times, he just seems like a Pokemon that will be outclassed.

OPINION: I'd take him off, only due to the fact that there are better Choice Banders, fast as he may be. Still better than Tauros in my opinion, however.

Snorlax: Well you can use Curselax still and Choice Band is still a decent option, but you kind of wonder if Snorlax is any good anymore. Close Combat but Snorlax into a heap of trouble, and still no reliable recovery move makes him just sit there.

OPINION: Sorry Snorlax, you're just not as stellar as you used to be. Off de charts wit ya.

Sceptile: ...x2

OPINION: Er, this is even more confusing than why Slowbro was considered. Swords Dance + STAB Leaf Blade is nice and being the fastest SubSeeder in the game is something that's good but otherwise that's about it. I'd just kick him out of the list. Celebi outclasses him as far as any Leech Seed user goes. Even Tangrowth has a reason to be used over Sceptile.

Slaking: Bulky, gets Fire Punch, Pursuit, pretty fast, VERY powerful, what could go wrong? And of course the answer is plain and simple: Truant. May though he hits extremely hard for a Choice Bander, the fact that he loses a second turn is just bad for him. Free set-up bait, but still a helluva lot better than Tauros any day.

OPINION: I'd keep him on, only because the fact that he can threaten Pokemon still, despite only being able to attack every other turn.

I'm not going into huge detail, but I think Starmie DOES need a second look at. Being versatile is one thing, but then again the fact that Blissey makes it so damn hard to work at times is hard to consider for a slot. Countering Mixape and Gyarados is nice, but barely countering Garchomp is something that should be mentioned (and I mean BARELY).

ADDITIONS

Mamoswine: No, not because of the whole "you're Mamoswine weak!", but actually because Ice + Ground definately is a killer combination, only resisted by one Pokemon: Bronzong (with Levitate). You only wish, however, that he got a stronger Ice attack OTHER than Avalanche and Ice Fang. This one I'd throw around however, as he does have the immunity to both Sandstream AND Hail.

Kingdra: The usage for him has gone up significantly, and the fact that he hits hard to begin with is crazy. Ever tried a Specs set with Sniper for the hell of it? It's fun to kill a Blissey by luck. Besides that, Rain Dance and the ability to hurt VERY hard against some of the best walls in the game is something to consider. Definately needs the rain or some Specs, otherwise he seems a bit lackluster.

Gallade: It's almost a suprise isn't it, but I agree with everyone that says he should go in. Definately puts huge dents to even walls if he acts right. He's pretty sturdy as well, and let's not forget his awesome support movepool. Definately needs to be mentioned more.

I'm more mixed on mentioning Dragonite, since the same could be applied to DDMence, only with Fire Punch and Outrage (and much slower as well). However, these are my opinions as far as changes go. On some of the Pokemon, there could be some more elaborations to Pokemon that fit similair roles (like how I mentioned Slowbro with Calm Mind is pretty similair to Calm Mind Suicune), and definately more input on some of the other movesets that they carry.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, Yanmega should be added to the list. Tinted Lens is a neat ability, even though most say that the Speed Boost movesets are better.

EDIT 2: Not to harp on your post Aero, but Medicham doesn't learn Stone Edge. However, there is Rock Slide.

 

[Bourbon]

We should work on a defensive threat list. I'm sorry, but regarding Celebi and Spiritomb as "non-threatening" is just asking for trouble. A lot of new players will prepare teams to deal with the OFFENSIVE threat list, and get 6-0d by a sub calm mind Celebi or getting annihalated by a well played Spiritomb. Pokemon like Suicine, Celebi, Spiritomb, Dusknoir, Porygon2, Hippowdon and Blissey I think belongs in this category.

Just because something isn't going to "sweep" your team per se, it is still capable of dealing massive damage. If people aren't taught how to deal with these super dangerous defensive pokes, they'll run into problems very quickly.


Oh, and for the record, Porygon-Z is not better than P2 in EVERY WAY. Porygon2 has 515 base stats, and Porygon-Z has 535... not too much of a boost for an evolution IMO. Porygon2 tanks, Porygon-Z sweeps. You can't really say Porygon-Z is better if they don't even do the same thing.



So, here's some DEFENSIVE THREATS and why I think they deserve a mention:

Porygon2

COMMON SETS:

Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Toxic/Thunderwave, Recover @ Leftovers
Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Recycle, Recover/Rest @ Lum Berry
Ice Beam/Tri Attack/Toxic/Thunderwave, Substitute, Conversion2, Recover @ Leftovers (yes, I have seen this, it's so annoying)

USAGE: Porygon2 is mainly used for it's ability, Trace. It's stats aren't awful, but they're not good either. It has 85/90/95 defenses. Thankfully, it easily reaches 266 Satk so it can OHKO most of the bigger threats in the game. It can come in fearlessly on Heatran, Vapoeron, Jolteon, Arcanine, DDmence, Gyarados, Flygon, Claydol, etc because it's ability either softens the attack or renders him immune. He can stop a lot of deadly sweepers, and can even recover off the damage afterward. If only his attacks packed a bigger punch. Oh well.

POSITIVES: It's bulky, it gets Recover, and Boltbeam. An excellent tank that can switch into a variety of pokemon. Counters Gyarados 100% of the time.

NEGATIVES: It's slow as molasses, and it's normal type. Lack of resistances and STAB hinders it somewhat.




Celebi

COMMON SETS:

Psychic, Calm Mind, Leech Seed, Substitute @ Leftovers
Substitute, Calm Mind/Swords Dance, Recover, Baton Pass @ Leftovers
Recover, Grass Knot, Leech Seed, Perish Song @ Leftovers
Leaf Storm, HP Fire, Psychic/Shadow Ball, Rest @ Choice Specs


USAGE:

Celebi is an old Advance standard, constantly being debated uber. Game Freak slapped Celebi around a bit this generation with U-Turn and Pursuit, ensuring it stays in OU for now. It's a scary world for Celebi nowadays, however, with 100/100/100 defenses, Recover, and Leech Seed, Celebi won't go down in one hit unless you are using STABed U-Turn or Bug Buzz. It's that tough. Whatever you do, NEVER EVER send Blissey into this. Blissey is it's food. It can use 101 HP subs, and Calm Mind up while you feed it pink gooey juices thanks to Leech Seed. As a matter of fact, Celebi gains more than 101 HP each turn in this situation. Never allow this to happen, too many new players try this and lose. Once Celebi sets up, IE has a sub and some boosts or leech seed, you must crack down on it. Pummel it constantly until it's forced to give up. A smart player won't waste all sixteen subs on you, so it will leave eventually. If it tries to baton pass boosts, or if things look hopeless phaze it out. Don't use Swampert for this because it may use a grass move on you. If you are careful it can be beaten. Blissey beats specs verisons all the time.

POSITIVES: Best Grass Type in the game award goes to Celebi. It has handy resistances to Ground, Water, and Fighting. A huge variety of recovery options and Natural Cure ensure it won't die on you.

NEGATIVES: Seven weaknesses. Count them; SEVEN. You'll hear "It's super effective!" on Celebi over half the time. Thankfully, after one or two Calm Minds, Ice Beams won't break your sub without STAB. Pursuit sucks.


Spiritomb

COMMON SETS:

Will O Wisp, Pain Split, Sucker Punch, Pursuit @ Leftovers
Taunt, Nasty Plot, Shadow Ball, HP Fighting @ Leftovers
Taunt, Pain Split, Shadow Ball, Hypnosis @ Leftovers

USAGE: Spiritomb is really the only usable pokemon that has no weaknesses. (sorry Sableye :| ) It has the ability Pressure too; compound this with the fact that it takes three or more hits to take down, and it's one annoying legion of 108 ghosts. Three immunities is nice too. Fighting and Psychic immunities means poor Alakazam and Azelf are stuck using crappy moves like Grass Knot on you. It's even immune to Explosion (ha ha again azlef) and Rapid Spin. Taunt is a wonderful move in general, and stops Blissey and Cress from trying to do stuff against you. It's one of the best CM Cress counters, because it has to use a crappy Ice Beam against you (eight times maximum, too) and cannot heal thanks to Taunt. Anyways, Spiritomb makes a wonderful addition to any team, because it can switch into so many attacks, saving your pokemon's butts time and time again. Once more, rapid spin blocker :P

POSITIVES: Fairly bulky with 50/108/108 defenses. Max out HP always though. No weaknesses makes it sturdier than it looks. Counter Gengar, Alakazam, Azelf, and scarf/specs PZ.

NEGATIVES: Crappy HP, poor type coverage, unreliable recovery in Pain Split (it's blocked by sub for crying out loud) and once again, CRAPPY HP!!




I'll do more later... but we really need a defensive threat list. Stall teams are super popular nowadays, and people need to know how to counter them.

 

[Jumpman16]

Thanks Iggy, I lost the post I was about to submit that basically covered that. Jolt, my main point was that you wildly contradicted yourself when you said "Taking t-tar off the list could be viable IMO. It's usage is dropping fast, I never see it anymore." and then said " I think that a poke's removal from the threat list should be based on the individual pokemon, not on a usage list."

To reply to the parts where you quoted me:

[Do my opinions need your approval?]

I'm pretty sure I stated that anyone's posting in this thread is contingent upon having at least two months quality battle exposure. You may be inclined to retort with "well I have been playing on shoddy's official server exclusively" but you would be glazing over where I said "quality". It literally does not add up that you could be playing many quality battles but missing the #4 or #5 most used pokemon in the game in both weighted and unweighted play the last 4+ months.

[Read my first post again and quote where I made an argument.]

While my use of "make the argument" was more figurative than literal, any statement intended to convince or persuade can be construed as an argument. If you want to play the semantics game with me you can at least look up the word "argument" in a dictionary. Regardless, I'm pretty sure I said "I want detailed, convincing arguments" in this thread, which an observation that's a mere line and a half falls short of.

[when did I say that?]

When you said it might be viable to take Tyranitar off the Threat List? Come on...

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

Okay, when I build a team, here are the Pokemon that I worry about the most. I'll go through everything in the top 60 of the Jan 08 Shoddy weighted usage. (Nothing after that needs special attention, in my opinion.)

1. Garchomp - I'd rather not rehash all of the arguments that "possibly" make it Uber, but we're all completely aware of its sweeping capabilities. Reason #1 for using Ice attacks.

2. Blissey - If you don't have a means of dealing with her effectively, she could wall your entire team. Reason #1 that I pack a physical Fighting attack on my team.

3. Gengar - Its use has gone up quite a bit in the last few months, and with good reason. #1 reason for using Dark attacks. Damn that 130 SpA and 110 Spe... thanks for making me have to carry Pursuit for you!

4. Gyarados - Reason #1 for using an Electric attack.

5. Tyranitar - Reason #2 that I have to pack a physical Fighting attack on my team.

6. Lucario - Several viable sets for it to run, and Extremespeed to boot.

7. Heatran - Reason #1 for carrying a Ground attack. 130 SpA WITH 91/106/106 defenses? Son of a BITCH!

8. Metagross - I run this on my own team. 135 Atk hurts and a STABed 100 BP move that can RAISE its Atk is always a mess to deal with.

9. Salamence - Reason #2 for using Ice attacks. 135 Atk, 100 Spe, Dragon Dance; need I mention the 110 SpA, as well?

10. Bronzong - Third most popular lead in Jan 08 behind Gyarados and Gengar. With a weakness that's only feasibly exploited by 3 of the top 20 leads (Salamence/Infernape/Azelf), it will likely stick around to set up SOMETHING to hurt you. It's not exactly a slouch with 89 Atk and a STAB Gyro Ball that takes advantage of its 33 Spe, either. Reason #1 for using Fire attacks.

11. Infernape - I don't think I can count the number of RMT threads I've seen where teams are noted as being MixApe weak. Definitely an effective wall breaker. (Gyarados, Starmie, where are you?!)

12. Swampert - Reason #1 for the use of Grass Knot and other Grass attacks. About as viable mixed (like I use) as it is fully physical.

13. Weavile - Reason #3 for packing a Fighting attack. 125 Spe and 120 Atk to boot. Did I mention Ice Shard and Pursuit?

14. Skarmory - Reason #2 for using Fire and Electric attacks.

(If Skarmory is covered, then Forretress is covered as well, so there's no need to pay special attention to it.)

16. Gliscor - Reason #3 for using Ice attacks. There's a reason it's the most popular Heracross counter out there. More on Heracross in a minute.

17. Cresselia - Reason #2 for using Dark attacks. 120/120/130 defenses are just annoying to break through, and it can eventually build up to be a threat with the likes of Blissey through Calm Mind and Charge Beam.

18. Starmie - I would think that having Gyarados and Gengar covered reduces the need to pay special attention to Starmie, but Infernape users have to worry about it, and it can Recover much of the damage it takes switching in.

19. Breloom - Reason #2 for using Flying attacks. The #1 reason is next, but Breloom seems to be used more for its Sporing and SubPunching/Seeding prowess.

20. Heracross - Reason #1 for using Flying attacks. Megahorn and Close Combat are two very potent STABs off of 125 Atk. Stone Edge and Pursuit / Night Slash on top of that? Check please.

21. Togekiss - Speaking of Flying attacks, here's the #1 user of them! I'm personally most worried about its ParaFlinching capabilities, though. 30% chance of attacking? Give me a break!

22. Celebi - I have trouble seeing why particular attention should be made to Celebi, but Curt's explanation is good enough for me.

23. Hippowdon - The defensive one of the Sand Streamers. Reason #2 for using Grass attacks.

24. Azelf - 125 SpA, 115 Spe, 125 Atk (for U-turn and Explosion), Nasty Plot. There's a reason I use Azelf on my team. Reason #1 for using Spiritomb. :naughty:

25. Dusknoir - Its defenses with Pain Split can make it a tough nut to crack and often resorts to Shadow Sneak to finish off opponents.

26. Snorlax - My God, what a tank--and a self-destructing one, too...

27. Jirachi - I see no reason not to worry about this tank that can Wish and abuse Serene Grace.

28. Suicune - It can Roar and/or Calm Mind. Make sure you get rid of this one quickly.

(Vaporeon is sufficiently covered if you've got Suicune down.)

30. Porygon-Z - If it weren't for the infamous 'Nasty Plot Life Orb Adaptability Hyper Beam,' I wouldn't worry as much, but 135 SpA and Nasty Plot can still be a mess to deal with.

(If Heatran's covered by a Ground attack, Electivire should be simple pickings. Notice I didn't say 'easy pickings,' however.)

32. Magnezone - BoltBeam resist, Skarm trapper. Reason #2 to use Ground attacks.

33. Yanmega - A fast Hypnosis that only gets faster; yay. Bug Buzz and Air Slash from 116 SpA is nothing to scoff at, either. Probably the #1 reason to use Stealth Rock, if not #2 (Charizard).

(You should be fine with Donphan if Hippowdon can be taken care of. Still got to watch for that 120 Atk and Ice Shard, though.)

35. Mamoswine - 'You're Mamo weak' seems to be a popular RMT meme, but being immune to Sandstorm and Hail (complete with Snow Cloak) and posting a nice 130 Atk, Mamoswine can take advantage of the STABed Earthquake / Ice Fang/Shard combination offered to it. The 110 HP is nice, as well (because 80/60 sure won't cut it), and the 80 Spe is icing on the cake. (Fuck you, Heatran!)

(Tentacruel has developed a nice niche in OU as a utility Pokemon and Infernape counter, but you should have Tentacruel reasonably covered already if everything else is in check.)

37. Machamp - 130 Atk and Guts or No Guard Dynamicpunch. Certainly anything with 130 Atk must be looked out for, anyway, but an attack with a 100% confusion rate (Ghosts notwithstanding) may give several Machamp counters second thoughts about switching in. Possibly the #2 (if not #1) reason for ever using Slowbro.

38. Milotic - Bulky Waters can normally be an issue, but one with Hypnosis, Recover, Calm Mind, and Marvel Scale can cause other problems. Its 100 SpA can still hurt, as well.

(Cover Forretress and Scizor should be simple enough to get rid of.)

40. Jolteon - The second fastest Passer in the game and 110 SpA to boot. Jolteon may be the #2 reason for carrying a PHazer. (#1's coming later, of course.)

41. Spiritomb - Seeing as how this is my favorite Pokemon, there may be some bias here--a little heads up. Functions to a large extent like Dusknoir, only no Pursuit weakness--or any other weaknesses for that matter. Its own Pursuit along with Sucker Punch makes the likes of Gengar, Starmie, and Azelf cry.

(I have to agree with MoP on Zapdos. Just a glorified Jolteon...)

43. Dugtrio - Traps grounded opponents like a pro. Like the original threat list states, it "makes you think twice about building a team loaded with Pokémon Dugtrio can kill off easily."

(Once/if Deoxys-S officially becomes OU on our tier list, I will include this in my threat list as its 180 Spe is nothing to mess around with.)

45. Dragonite - A little more defensive than the other OU dragons and holds a candle over them with Dragon Dance and Outrage. DD+Outrage is the ONLY reason I include Dragonite here as it is as similarly dealt with as Salamence.

(If Roserade was faster than 90, I would throw it in for its fast sleeping capabilities and STAB Leaf Storm, but it's slow enough to be dealt with through many Fire attacks.)

47. Ninjask - The #1 reason for carrying a PHazer. It may not be able to do much else, but being able to pass its Speed Boosts still leaves it with the opportunity to set up another threat.

(I personally don't consider Kingdra when building a team, but I wouldn't argue against anyone else considering it a threat.)

49. Abomasnow - Its stats are hardly impressive, but its Snow Warning ability makes Hail teams viable. This along with Tyranitar and Hippowdon may sway you to put your own weather changer on your team.

50. Weezing - Heracross counter #2 thanks in part to its 120 Def. Ground and Fighting immunities/resistances as well as Will-O-Wisp and Pain Split can make it difficult to take down on the physical side.

51. Alakazam - 135 SpA and 120 Spe; no non-Uber can boast that combination of [Sp]Atk and Spe. Though it might be just another Special Psychic Pokemon, it can also carry Trick to mess up common walls by giving them Choice Specs.

52. Aerodactyl - 130 Spe makes it a prime candidate for Choice Band and Life Orb. That 105 Atk isn't bad, either.

53. Gallade - 125 Atk that can be boosted through Swords Dance, 115 SpD, and Hypnosis/Thunder Wave/Will-O-Wisp to cripple many of its counters.

(Though Crobat carries "the fastest Hypnosis in the West," it doesn't threaten with anything else enough to require anything special.)

55. Rhyperior - I'm sorry, but 115 HP, 130 Def, and 140 Atk can still cause problems, especially in sandstorms. Further justification for Grass Knot and Water attacks--and possibly weather changers.

(Staraptor is just as easily dealt with as most other Flyers, quite frankly. 120 Atk and Intimidate isn't enough to justify as a special threat.)

(Though Mismagius is a Special oriented attacker with Perish Song, there's nothing about it that suggests needing anything different than what's already been mentioned.)

58. Umbreon - Umbreon is on this list for the same reasons as Jolteon and Ninjask. Mean Look Passing can set up something far more dangerous if you're not prepared for it.

(Tangrowth should easily be covered by this point.)

(I highly doubt you'll need something special to get rid of Empoleon despite its unique typing, 111 SpA, and Yawn/Roar.)



45 Pokemon, huh? Thought it'd be in the mid-50s...

Anyway, there's every Pokemon I consider when building a team. Everything else is either too weak or too similar to warrant a mention, in my opinion.

 

[Brawley]

Snip Snip

I think you need to get over Porygon 2, It really isn't gonna give a team problems as a whole, and isn't really threatenign, also Spiritomb doesnt really strike fear into hearts. If we need defensive threats I would put on Skarmory, Blissey, and Celebi.

 

[Bourbon]

Porygon2 is really only dangerous against Gyarados, Salamence, and Heatran, but considering how much those pokemon are used, I thought it was noteworthy. Mostly I mentioned it because I'm tired of people thinking Porygon-Z is the better choice, thinking it does everything better. Sorry folks, but Trace is easily the second best ability in the game. Stupid wonder guard <_<

Spiritomb is freaking amazing. How could you not fear it? Most of the most dangerous special attackers get stopped by Spiritomb much better than Blissey. It can Sucker Punch or Pursuit, which is always annoying. It's tough as nails, and has no weaknesses. Taunt rounds off the awesomeness. Don't forget it gets WoW and Hypnosis. Much better than Dusknoir if you ask me. Compare 50/108/108 to 50/130/130. Dusk is a bit tougher, but 'Tomb has an amazing type advantage. 'Tomb = WIN

Also, what can Skarmory do that's so great? I'm sorry, but Skarmory is a thing of the past. Hippowdon and Gliscor is where it's at now. Skarmory gets 2HKOd by Tyranitar and Herracross. Sad. Not to mention all the Fire Blasts being tossed around these days. I see more reason to put Celebi and Spiritomb up there than this fool bird.

 

[Lee]

Thunder fang isn't listed in mamoswine's analysis. Does this mean that I can't use it if I want to win?

Are you serious? Saying Tyranitar isn't a threat is one thing, but Mamoswine doesn't even LEARN Thunder Fang!

I'm adamant that Blissey needs to be on the list. This isn't just an offensive threat list; it's a list of Pokemon that need to be considered during the team-building process. I've battled with a Blissey-weak team in the past, and let me tell you - it's a much bigger struggle than using a Garchomp/Tyranitar weak team.

 

[Bourbon]

Yeah, cmon... we need to include defensive threats too. I agree with Lee here.