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Revisions to the Threat List
- Thread starter Jumpman16
- Start date
Well, Salamence is usally Mixmence or a Choice user while Dragonite is most always a Dragon Dancer. I think that's enough difference to warrant a seperate mention.
Azumarill deserves a spot on the list more than anybody else I can think of. Max attack with a boosting nature gives 436 attack, before CB. If you switch your defensive wall in expecting the CB version, though, you might get hit with Sing from behind Azumarill's solid 100/80/80 defenses. Because nobody bothers carrying a Water resist (or maybe because there are so few reliable ones), STAB CB Aqua Jet from Azumarill can easily sweep a weakened team lategame.
Azumarill deserves a spot on the list more than anybody else I can think of. Max attack with a boosting nature gives 436 attack, before CB. If you switch your defensive wall in expecting the CB version, though, you might get hit with Sing from behind Azumarill's solid 100/80/80 defenses. Because nobody bothers carrying a Water resist (or maybe because there are so few reliable ones), STAB CB Aqua Jet from Azumarill can easily sweep a weakened team lategame.
Well for one thing it takes the most Sp. Attack to KO Dragonite than it takes for the other 2 dragons. Salamence is a hit and run poke, while Dragonite is a stay in and sweep pokemon. Most salamences are special or mixed, while most dragonites are physical, so the same pokes don't counter them. Also suckle isn't set up bait it has encore, but it isn't used much so whatever.
Edit: 800th Post
Edit 2: SirRaven, shut up, Dragonite doesn't even use focus punch , the one big difference is Outrage.
Edit: 800th Post
Edit 2: SirRaven, shut up, Dragonite doesn't even use focus punch , the one big difference is Outrage.
Candidates for removal:
Rhyperior - Coming off a Base 140 Attack and STAB'ed Earthquake and Stone Edge you would expect this thing to destroy teams right? Well unfortunately the Base 40 Speed isn't exactly saving it. Barring Trick Room teams this thing is of no threat at all considering Pokemon like Bronzong can come in and set up on it. Its meager Base 55 Special Defense isn't helping it either considering it has two Quad Weaknesses, and takes serious damage from Ice Beams.
Electivire- The sole reason why people stopped Thunderbolting Gyarados comes off a Base 123 Attack. Considering its strongest Physical STAB is Thunderpunch you won't be seeign Electivire dealing much damage to anything not weak to Electric attacks. Even though it carries impressive offenses (123/95/95 - Fuck yeah I consider Speed to be an offensive stat) without the aid of any attack boosting moves, besides the mediocre Meditate this Pokemon simply can not damage the likes of many strong Pokemon. Motor Drive doesn't do anything for it either since so many Pokemon carrying neutral natures and a Choice Scarf out speed it and OHKO it with Earthquake thanks to the Base 67 Defense.
Jolteon- This thing ties or outspeeds every standard Pokemon in the game yet it can not kill things thanks to its lackluster move pool. It has to resort to Hidden Powers to deal damage to Pokemon and thats not always a guarantee. When Baton Passing besides Pseudo phazing or Wish passing its only other viable option is Agility. This fragile pup is of little concern to the likes of the big dogs.
Candidates for Addition:
Dragonite- The unique combo of Dragon Dance + Outrage alone qualify it. Boasting as big a move pool as Salamence, almost the same attack stats and bulkier Defenses I can not possibly understand how it is not a threat. Unlike Salamence who can only claim to have Intimidate, Wish, and more Speed, Dragonite claims Focus Punch, Thunder Wave, Haze, and Heal Bell. Its resistances are very important being that it is resistant or immune to Fire, Water, Bug, Grass, Fighting, and Ground.
Mamoswine- Base 130 Attack + STAB'ed Ice and Ground Attacks + Choice Band = serious hurt. Not only that but he takes claim to a priority move in Ice Shard killing those who would otherwise hurt a weakened Mamo. Getting STAB'ed Earthquake and Avalanche in comibation with Curse means that this will hurt anything not named Bronzong, and even then said Pokemon must be careful. Base 80 Speed means he will kill the likes of Breloom and Tyranitar before they even launch an attack thanks to his STAB. It sends slower Steels like Metagross, Magnezone, and Heatran packing with Earthquake as well. It can also catch fearsome Pokemon like Gyarados and Weavile on the switch with Stone Edge.
Gallade- This thing is good at both attacking and annoying. It boasts STAB'ed Close Combats coming from a Base 125 Attack, high critical hit moves like Night Slash and Psycho Cut, and priority moves like Shadow Sneak expect this to deal some damage. Defensively it could be better but thanks to its typing its only weakness is Flying. As far as attack boosts go he can claim to be a decent Choice Bander, and can up his attack stat instantly with the help of Swords Dance. It also carries Thunder Wave, Will-O-Wisp, and Hypnosis to cripple other Pokemon. Although his speed is somewhat lacking you will more than make up for it with his unpredictability. It has the ability to cripple any Pokemon not sturdy enough to take a hit and fast enough to deal one out first. Notable mentions for movepool slots:
Stone Edge, Thunderpunch, Ice Punch, Wish, X-Scissor, Leaf Blade, and Earthquake.
Rhyperior - Coming off a Base 140 Attack and STAB'ed Earthquake and Stone Edge you would expect this thing to destroy teams right? Well unfortunately the Base 40 Speed isn't exactly saving it. Barring Trick Room teams this thing is of no threat at all considering Pokemon like Bronzong can come in and set up on it. Its meager Base 55 Special Defense isn't helping it either considering it has two Quad Weaknesses, and takes serious damage from Ice Beams.
Electivire- The sole reason why people stopped Thunderbolting Gyarados comes off a Base 123 Attack. Considering its strongest Physical STAB is Thunderpunch you won't be seeign Electivire dealing much damage to anything not weak to Electric attacks. Even though it carries impressive offenses (123/95/95 - Fuck yeah I consider Speed to be an offensive stat) without the aid of any attack boosting moves, besides the mediocre Meditate this Pokemon simply can not damage the likes of many strong Pokemon. Motor Drive doesn't do anything for it either since so many Pokemon carrying neutral natures and a Choice Scarf out speed it and OHKO it with Earthquake thanks to the Base 67 Defense.
Jolteon- This thing ties or outspeeds every standard Pokemon in the game yet it can not kill things thanks to its lackluster move pool. It has to resort to Hidden Powers to deal damage to Pokemon and thats not always a guarantee. When Baton Passing besides Pseudo phazing or Wish passing its only other viable option is Agility. This fragile pup is of little concern to the likes of the big dogs.
Candidates for Addition:
Dragonite- The unique combo of Dragon Dance + Outrage alone qualify it. Boasting as big a move pool as Salamence, almost the same attack stats and bulkier Defenses I can not possibly understand how it is not a threat. Unlike Salamence who can only claim to have Intimidate, Wish, and more Speed, Dragonite claims Focus Punch, Thunder Wave, Haze, and Heal Bell. Its resistances are very important being that it is resistant or immune to Fire, Water, Bug, Grass, Fighting, and Ground.
Mamoswine- Base 130 Attack + STAB'ed Ice and Ground Attacks + Choice Band = serious hurt. Not only that but he takes claim to a priority move in Ice Shard killing those who would otherwise hurt a weakened Mamo. Getting STAB'ed Earthquake and Avalanche in comibation with Curse means that this will hurt anything not named Bronzong, and even then said Pokemon must be careful. Base 80 Speed means he will kill the likes of Breloom and Tyranitar before they even launch an attack thanks to his STAB. It sends slower Steels like Metagross, Magnezone, and Heatran packing with Earthquake as well. It can also catch fearsome Pokemon like Gyarados and Weavile on the switch with Stone Edge.
Gallade- This thing is good at both attacking and annoying. It boasts STAB'ed Close Combats coming from a Base 125 Attack, high critical hit moves like Night Slash and Psycho Cut, and priority moves like Shadow Sneak expect this to deal some damage. Defensively it could be better but thanks to its typing its only weakness is Flying. As far as attack boosts go he can claim to be a decent Choice Bander, and can up his attack stat instantly with the help of Swords Dance. It also carries Thunder Wave, Will-O-Wisp, and Hypnosis to cripple other Pokemon. Although his speed is somewhat lacking you will more than make up for it with his unpredictability. It has the ability to cripple any Pokemon not sturdy enough to take a hit and fast enough to deal one out first. Notable mentions for movepool slots:
Stone Edge, Thunderpunch, Ice Punch, Wish, X-Scissor, Leaf Blade, and Earthquake.
I'm putting all of my support behind Staraptor, if you are not prepared for this thing, you will be taking massive damage. Unlike Tauros and other Normal CBers, Staraptor can hit everything for at least neutral damage. Brave Bird and Close Combat have amazing synergy and will wreak havoc on teams. If the opponent makes a wrong prediction it usually ends up severely weakened or even KOed. Staraptor doesn't need Intimidate, think of it as a bonus.
Tauros on the other hand, doesn't really have a place here anymore. STAB Normal attack just doesn't cut it in an environment filled with Steels and Rocks, while Tauros CAN hit those, there are more imposing threats out there.
Tauros on the other hand, doesn't really have a place here anymore. STAB Normal attack just doesn't cut it in an environment filled with Steels and Rocks, while Tauros CAN hit those, there are more imposing threats out there.
Point taken—the first three additions I made to the original thread were all grass types, coincidentally (Tangrowth, Breloom [is uber], and Sceptile). I don't have a problem with this at all, considering it was not even on the map when I first drafted the TL in March 2007. It's 45 currently in weighted usage for what it's wirth
Now that I think about it, it really does deserve a spot. First and foremost, it's 48th, and I'd actually go out of my way to build a team around it because Rain Dance rules (just ask Dantzel!), especially on a pokemon that can hit from both sides of the spectrum. And just like with Dantzel, it's not as if the popular weather changers want much to do with it (even Abomasnow who can't hit it for SE).
Love this post Jabba, thanks for adding the usage numbers. I have a hard time disagreeing with any of your removals on my sheet gut feeling alone, and the numbers plus your explanations back them up. I am not sure about Yanmega and Scizor, though, since they both have trouble getting around Blisskarm (I would think?). Scizor can be WWed out at any time and Yangema isn't doing anything to "the other" if it manages to Sleep something. This is kind of theorymon or whatever, and I am honestly not trying to be a hypocrite, but I don't see what has changed. If you don't have Blissey/Lax, a lot of stuff can and will hurt you, so I don't see why that makes Yanmega special. I'm letting people like Obi speak for me on that though, so as not to appear a hypocrite.
Will reply to some more posts later.
My main problem with Scizor is that, for the most part, it's just a more defensive Lucario with Bug STAB in exchange for Fighting STAB. Although I suppose the STAB Bug can be pretty important with Cresselia and Celebi kicking around, neither one is particularly good at stopping Lucario, anyway. I don't see a real purpose to Aerial Ace on Scizor, either. I suppose it's good enough to warrant mention...
Stuff like Tangrowth really shouldn't be on here because this is an offensive threat list, not a defensive wall list.
Stuff like Tangrowth really shouldn't be on here because this is an offensive threat list, not a defensive wall list.
I put Tangrowth on there after the first draft because I thought that people would realize and embrace its versatility as an attacker, especially in light of that "Growthtran" thread. It may not belong there after all, of course, but I did add it for the right reason.
Hmmmm On Scizor, Iggy and I were talking about on MSN, and we are both on the fence about it, but I'm think it should be on. The SD threat is a huge threat and it can recover, but then again most are baton passers..... :[
Also I think Yanmega should be on, it sweeps a lot of unprepared teams, Although SkarmBliss does wall it, it gets good attacks, and is really handy!
Also I think Yanmega should be on, it sweeps a lot of unprepared teams, Although SkarmBliss does wall it, it gets good attacks, and is really handy!
I like the list, though the pokemon that the people have already said should be taken off are all the ones I want to take off.
Is magnezone on the list, if it isn't it should be. It is simply the best steel killer in the game with magnet rise and powerful thunderbolts smiting the weak special defense of most steels.
Is magnezone on the list, if it isn't it should be. It is simply the best steel killer in the game with magnet rise and powerful thunderbolts smiting the weak special defense of most steels.
Seconding Fishin's Gallade reccomendation.
It isn't fair to liken Gallade to Heracross, and it would be ridiculous to suggest that "if you've got Heracross covered, you have Gallade covered too." CB Ice Punch OHKO's Gliscor and Psycho Cut 2HKO's Weezing. Similarly, it wouldn't be fair to make a comparison to Medicham, as Medicham's primary counters (Cress and Dusknoir) can be 2HKO'd by a CB assault.
Gallade also has status options, Reflect/LS, Leaf Blade, Wish, Destiny Bond, Mean Look, and perhaps most importantly came in at a respectable 54 last month, and I can almost guarantee he's moved up a few places this month.
I'm sorry if I'm going over old ground here, but I have a lot of experience with Gallade and it's amazing how few teams are able to counter him.
It isn't fair to liken Gallade to Heracross, and it would be ridiculous to suggest that "if you've got Heracross covered, you have Gallade covered too." CB Ice Punch OHKO's Gliscor and Psycho Cut 2HKO's Weezing. Similarly, it wouldn't be fair to make a comparison to Medicham, as Medicham's primary counters (Cress and Dusknoir) can be 2HKO'd by a CB assault.
Gallade also has status options, Reflect/LS, Leaf Blade, Wish, Destiny Bond, Mean Look, and perhaps most importantly came in at a respectable 54 last month, and I can almost guarantee he's moved up a few places this month.
I'm sorry if I'm going over old ground here, but I have a lot of experience with Gallade and it's amazing how few teams are able to counter him.
I also believe Scizor warrents a spot on the list. It only has one weakness, which makes it a good pokemon to switch-in during battle. It is so immensely versicle with great stats that it is very hard to predict what you will be facing, a baton passing scizor, or a pure offensive scizor. Add on a recovery move, which although it's less defense than other steel types, Roost does give it an advantage (or a curve ball move in light screen). Also, The ability Technician opens-up even more move strategies, such as the use of a Swords Dance/Quick Attack combination, and it makes his non-STAB Pursuit a huge threat!
Combine the typing, ability to switch-in during a fight, different styles of play, and a unique variation of moves, you gotta include him as a threat.
Combine the typing, ability to switch-in during a fight, different styles of play, and a unique variation of moves, you gotta include him as a threat.
I can see porygon-2 going on there too. It's slowly seeing more usage, and is bulky enough to take some things that it shouldn't. I can't think of exact example, but it is every buk to say the least.
Anything with 600bst, except shaymin should be on here.
Wobby for sure
Thats about all I can think of right now
Anything with 600bst, except shaymin should be on here.
Wobby for sure
Thats about all I can think of right now
Additions-
Mamoswine(35)-Now I realize that I don't really have to say anything about Mamo because he will obviously be added to the list, but due to his sheer awesomeness I still want to. Stab on the best attacking type in the game is definately something to watch out for, and priority on Ice Shard for the Dragons only makes him sweeter, not to mention SE for pokes like Gyarados that think they can come in on EQ/Ice Shard/Fang. btw, Mamo>All
Yanmega(33)-I have no battle experience with Yanmega on my side, but I do know that he rips through unprepared teams. Yes, Blissey walls this all day long, but that's why I say he rips through unprepared teams, not everyone uses Blissey. If you lack priority and have nothing else to wall this guy, you're not exactly in the best position possible.
Gallade(53)-He boasts STAB CC, and with so many attacking option, he is very hard to wall. There's also the double status set which is more annoying than threatening to sweep, but even the double status set can inflict severe damage.
Dragonite(45)-While I unfortunately have no battle experience with D-nite on my side, my gut tells me that a STAB'ed, DD'ed Outrage is nothing to sneeze at.
Magnezone(32)-I'm actually not sure about this guy. I have no battle experience with him on my side, so I can't say if he is a threat or just a threat to Steel, but a quick glimpse at him and he certainly isn't lacking Special Attack, and he has a pretty good STAB in T-bolt. I'm really just putting this guy out here for someone else to say something about.
Removals-
Jolteon(40)-Jolteon is not really much of threat, it tends to fill more support oriented roles. As stated, if you cover Zapdos and Raikou, this guy won't trouble you
Tauros(108)-The usage speaks for itself, STAB on normal just doesn't cut it in this metagame.
Slaking(127)-See Tauros
Rhyperior(55)-Bar TR, its speed just kills it, and it's not like his weaknesses make him any more appealing.
Blissey(2, lol @ getting knocked off by Chomp)-If Blissey is sweeping your team, you have far worse issues. It's not that Blissey is bad, just that this is a Threat List, and I sincerely hope Blissey is not threatening anyone anytime soon..
Tangrowth(59)-See Blissey. Ok fine he can do a bit more damage than the Blob, but he still won't be sweeping anyone(hopefully).
I suppose CM Bliss could be considered a threat, but it's not exactly the common set which is why I don't think that CM alone merits it a spot on the Threat List.
I do have Battle Experience to back up my post, my Shoddy name is the every crappy name "123abc"(bleh..), but my team is currently in the top 100, albeit only like 95 or something, and because I can't play Shoddy 'till Monday it won't stay there for long lol.
Mamoswine(35)-Now I realize that I don't really have to say anything about Mamo because he will obviously be added to the list, but due to his sheer awesomeness I still want to. Stab on the best attacking type in the game is definately something to watch out for, and priority on Ice Shard for the Dragons only makes him sweeter, not to mention SE for pokes like Gyarados that think they can come in on EQ/Ice Shard/Fang. btw, Mamo>All
Yanmega(33)-I have no battle experience with Yanmega on my side, but I do know that he rips through unprepared teams. Yes, Blissey walls this all day long, but that's why I say he rips through unprepared teams, not everyone uses Blissey. If you lack priority and have nothing else to wall this guy, you're not exactly in the best position possible.
Gallade(53)-He boasts STAB CC, and with so many attacking option, he is very hard to wall. There's also the double status set which is more annoying than threatening to sweep, but even the double status set can inflict severe damage.
Dragonite(45)-While I unfortunately have no battle experience with D-nite on my side, my gut tells me that a STAB'ed, DD'ed Outrage is nothing to sneeze at.
Magnezone(32)-I'm actually not sure about this guy. I have no battle experience with him on my side, so I can't say if he is a threat or just a threat to Steel, but a quick glimpse at him and he certainly isn't lacking Special Attack, and he has a pretty good STAB in T-bolt. I'm really just putting this guy out here for someone else to say something about.
Removals-
Jolteon(40)-Jolteon is not really much of threat, it tends to fill more support oriented roles. As stated, if you cover Zapdos and Raikou, this guy won't trouble you
Tauros(108)-The usage speaks for itself, STAB on normal just doesn't cut it in this metagame.
Slaking(127)-See Tauros
Rhyperior(55)-Bar TR, its speed just kills it, and it's not like his weaknesses make him any more appealing.
Blissey(2, lol @ getting knocked off by Chomp)-If Blissey is sweeping your team, you have far worse issues. It's not that Blissey is bad, just that this is a Threat List, and I sincerely hope Blissey is not threatening anyone anytime soon..
Tangrowth(59)-See Blissey. Ok fine he can do a bit more damage than the Blob, but he still won't be sweeping anyone(hopefully).
I suppose CM Bliss could be considered a threat, but it's not exactly the common set which is why I don't think that CM alone merits it a spot on the Threat List.
I do have Battle Experience to back up my post, my Shoddy name is the every crappy name "123abc"(bleh..), but my team is currently in the top 100, albeit only like 95 or something, and because I can't play Shoddy 'till Monday it won't stay there for long lol.
Where is Porygon2? Just because it's NFE doesn't mean it's not dangerous. I cannot count how many unexpected wins this thing has brought me. Trace is an amazing ability, and with it's impresive defenses, boltbeam, and recover, it's a major threat to offensive and stallish teams alike.
I also notice a lack of Spiritomb. It's an extremely good pokemon. it's very bulky, it has a plethora of status moves, and it counters Azlef, Alakazam, Gengar and Porygon-Z very efficiently. It's also a great spin blocker, and with three immunties it can get into play very often.
It also counters Blissey and Cress very well with S Toss immunitity, Psychic immuntity, and taunt.
I also notice a lack of Spiritomb. It's an extremely good pokemon. it's very bulky, it has a plethora of status moves, and it counters Azlef, Alakazam, Gengar and Porygon-Z very efficiently. It's also a great spin blocker, and with three immunties it can get into play very often.
It also counters Blissey and Cress very well with S Toss immunitity, Psychic immuntity, and taunt.
Italicized my thoughts.
On Porygon 2:
Trace alone isn't enough to make it an offensive threat. Though base 105 Special Attack is pretty good it is completely outclassed by Porygon-Z who is faster, has more base Special Attack and gets the help of Nasty Plot.
Spiritomb is only offensive when it is being defensive if that makes any sense. It has such a small attacking move pool further hindered by the typing of its attack. Defensive threat, not offensive.
Yeah, porygon 2 is awesome, but he's no where near a threat. Many of the top offensive pokemon can 2HKO him. He's a great pokemon in the BL tier, but he's not something I would quiver if I had to face it.
Spiritomb's kinda questionable. It's not necessarily a threat, but it is unique with its different styles of play. It can be either physical defensive or sp. defensive, physically attack or special attack, and have a decent movepool with an excellent typing! But I honestly don't think it's a threat with his immensely slow speed and average offensive stats.
Spiritomb's kinda questionable. It's not necessarily a threat, but it is unique with its different styles of play. It can be either physical defensive or sp. defensive, physically attack or special attack, and have a decent movepool with an excellent typing! But I honestly don't think it's a threat with his immensely slow speed and average offensive stats.
Rhyperior should stay on. It's slow, but it is still powerful and threatening. If handle it wrong while facing it, it will crush you, plain and simple.
Put it this way. In one battle I had recently, I led with Rhyperior. He had a chance not just to hurt the opponent, but utterly destroy his team. I won't go into details, but at the end, his Ambipom, Metagross, and Togekiss were fainted, and Weezing was severely battered. The only two remaining untouched Pokemon were Yanmega (who actually took down Rhyperior) and Blissey, easily cleaned up by my Boah.
2 Quad weaknesses does hurt, as does the bad Sp.Def, but Rhyerior still hits shit like a freight train.
Mismagius does deserve mention as well. It's two common sets basically compliment each other. The CM version is best countered by Physcial Pokemon, which are crippled by a T-Wave / WoW if Missy is of the status variety. Walls like Blissey sent in to absorb status can get set up on by the CM version. Read her wrong and you will probably be seriously hurt.
Put it this way. In one battle I had recently, I led with Rhyperior. He had a chance not just to hurt the opponent, but utterly destroy his team. I won't go into details, but at the end, his Ambipom, Metagross, and Togekiss were fainted, and Weezing was severely battered. The only two remaining untouched Pokemon were Yanmega (who actually took down Rhyperior) and Blissey, easily cleaned up by my Boah.
2 Quad weaknesses does hurt, as does the bad Sp.Def, but Rhyerior still hits shit like a freight train.
Mismagius does deserve mention as well. It's two common sets basically compliment each other. The CM version is best countered by Physcial Pokemon, which are crippled by a T-Wave / WoW if Missy is of the status variety. Walls like Blissey sent in to absorb status can get set up on by the CM version. Read her wrong and you will probably be seriously hurt.
I'd have to disagree on this point; have you ever used a team that doesn't have a Blissey counter? Life becomes very hard. It goes without saying that Blissey should always be considered during team-building. Having said that, I can't help but notice that other defensive Pokemon of similar offensive capabilities (namely Cresselia and Dusknoir) have been left out.
Porygon2 doesn't need to be on the list. This list determines which Pokemon you should attempt to counter in any given battle. Porygon2 has shallow offensive capabilities and is beaten down pretty easily by any powerful Pokemon without a BoltBeam weak.
I dunno, Jolteon can be quite potent with Sub and a Petaya Berry.
Jolteon can sweep too people, even with a support set. Because he spends most of the match subbing and baton passing out, I've managed a few sweeps at the end once the field is clear of ground types. If your opponents are down around 50-60%, and you have no ground left, Jolteon is going to sweep you! 319 STABed Thunderbolts are nothing to laugh at, and psuedo-bolt beam for coverage.