Resource RU Viability Rankings - V2

Status
Not open for further replies.

lighthouses

Chasing after dreamers in the clouds
is a Tiering Contributor
Just a couple things since im not good at writing essays

-Bronzong is not required to run protect; gyro ball, psychic, psywave, grass knot are all options that can be fit onto a set depending on what your team needs, toxic is mandatory though imo, otherwise you're not really making any progress against blastoise teams.
-It answers all the grass types better than regi does, being a lot safer against rose and shaymin while also being able to beat virizion(at least as a secondary check slot) which regi cannot.
-Shaymin being s rank sounds really silly to me, rose is much more threatening overall and the current meta revolves heavily around spike stack, which, unless you use forry, you cannot have by opting to use shaymin over rose.
-Choice band tsareena is good!!
-Noiverns viability and impact on the meta are being largely overhyped here i feel, it became a thing mainly due to its ability to beat grass types in a decently offensive slot for your team(similar to aero vs fire types) and both rose and shaymin often opt for hp ice nowadays, i dont think it should rise.
-Agree with aero rising, its a good alternative to running scarf tyrantrum and hoping to be fine versus fire types as it can switch moves, run recovery and be decently good at answering noivern.
-Not gonna make a proper nom as idk what the protocol is but i definitely think nidoqueen should rise a rank or two, gligar is ever so popular due to zydogs growing popularity and the majority of tour players(to my knowlegde) have been opting for modest scaldless blastoise which is just perfect for nidoqueen to keep rocks up with either tbolt or thunder. It also helps that cress is basically non existant at the moment.
-Houndoom and sneasel are good!!
:heart:
 
1536995221266.png
Unranked -> C+

Some of you may remember the Servine meme that went around about a year ago ors so. It gave birth to teams such as the derpy, yet effective Diglett + Drap + Servine offense. The former two trapped all of Servine's counters - Registeel. Bronzong, Dragalge, Goodra, Roserade etc. The idea was that by removing the mons that it could not overwhelm with its powerful attacks after a +2 Boost, Servine would then be able to spam its stab freely, boost and win. Alas, this was indeed naught but a meme, as it first and foremost was a very gimmicky strategy, relying too much on one, incredibly niche pokemon to sweep. Arena Trap also happened to get banned shortly thereafter, finishing off the meme for good - or so we thought?. A few days ago LegendarySerperior asked someone to build him a Servine team. I believe he originally asked a specific user, but since when has that ever stopped me? Whenever I hear about random gimmicky building ideas, I'm all ears. So I decided to make a fun team around it:

1536995221266.png
1536996793299.png
1536996872172.png
1536996817340.png
1536996837102.png
1536996859298.png

https://pokepast.es/aac37e076a23b3ab

The team is built around Servine and CM Espeon, and thus focuses on supporting them as well as possible in order for one of them to sweep. Glare lets Servine slow down faster threats such as Meloetta, Ninetales, Salazzle, Goodra, Swellow, Yanmega etc that tries to switch into it, which lets Bewear and Espeon outspeed them. As can be seen down below in the 3rd replay, Servine utilizes Glare in order to paralyze Salazzle, which then lets Espeon outspeed it, get off a Calm Mind, letting it live the Z move and win the game. Glare also has another effect apart from just slowing down faster mons. As we all know by now, the status condition known as Paralysis is nothing to mess around with. Having a 25% chance to render the paralyzed mon completely worthless every single turn is rather nice - to say the least. If you cannot outright overpower a wall, you can simply paralyze it and attack it until it inevitably gets fully paralyzed and loses 1v1. Hence spreading paralysis, while not as common as in prior generations due to the speed nerf, is still just as nice as ever, as it improves your odds of winning. Leech Seed lets Servine weaken switchins such as Bronzong and Registeel and aids the team with additional passive recovery. Alternatively Giga Drain can be used over Leech Seed, as Servine is rather prone to getting PP stalled. Bewear has enough creep to outspeed standard Milotics, which lets it keep enough bulk to live a +2 hit from Barbaracle, even after 3 rounds of Stealth Rock damage. In addition to taking advantage of Servine's ability to slow down faster threats, it also wallbreaks and checks mons that would otherwise be rather obnoxious to face down, being Golisopod (especially if Rock Slide), DD Feraligatr, Doublade, Escavalier, Linoone and Drapion. Registeel blanket checks half the tier and lays up Stealth Rocks. Hariyama is the 2nd fun mon of the team. It keeps the team from autolosing to Ninetales and acts as a status absorber of sorts due to Rest Talk. It also lures in Gligar, knocking off its eviolite which lets Bewear break it. Alternatively Ice Punch could be used to lure opposing Noivern. Lastly I have my own Noivern to act as an additional check to/revenge kill offensive grasses + Golisopod, improve the stall matchup and weaken steels for Servine or Espeon to sweep.



So what makes Servine worth it? Why use a random NFE that supposedly is bad in every tier - including ZU? Well, after looking at its stats, I found out that it really was not as much of a downgrade from its evolved form as one might suspect. It is only 7.8% weaker, and with an eviolite, it actually becomes bulkier than Serperior. The one thing that makes all the difference is their speed tier. While Serperior has an impressive speed stat of 113, Servine "only" hits 83. However, this is really not that bad of a speed tier in RU. It outspeeds all the walls in the tier, in addition to very common offensive threats such as Mega-Blastoise, Necrozma, Gardevoir, Feraligatr, Bewear, Tyrantrum and Pangoro (which for the record is criminally underrated in the VR and has more than proven its worth in tour play, but enough of that for now). In any case, its decent speed tier, utility in Glare + Leech Seed and the ability to power through fatter builds made me grow fond of Servine. I think these characteristics are enough to warrant a rank in the VR, specifically C+, as I believe it is quite a lot better than the mons in C and C-, barring Sneasel (did we not nom this mon for a higher rank back in RUPL at least 3 or 4 times? Seriously, get on with it already).


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-805506049
After some positioning to get it in for free, Servine completely obliterates stall on its own.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-805625330
Servine picks off Banette with Leech Seed, which would otherwise get another kill with Prankster Destiny Bond. She then proceeds to Glare the opposing Salazzle, letting Espy outspeed it and sweep.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-805934170
Servine weakens Shaymin and eliminates Noivern for Espy to sweep late game.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-805773607
Servine picks off Mandibuzz after Noivern decided to be completely blind. Registeel then walls all the opposing mons and wins.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-805777756
Servine sweeps after Registeel and Salazzle are eliminated.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-809626282
Servine kills Jellicent and Glares the omniboosting Shaymin, setting the stage for Noivern to win.
 
Last edited:

phantom

is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
RU Leader
Ranking updates:

Thanks to aldo and evi for helping out with these :)
Code:
Shaymin S --> A+
Mandibuzz A+ --> A
Ninetales A+ --> A
Barbaracle A --> A+
Snorlax A --> A-
Registeel A- --> A
Noivern A --> A+
Bewear A- --> B+
Yanmega A- --> B+
Cresselia A- --> B
Rotom-B+ --> B-
Banette-mega C+ --> C-
Sneasel C- --> C+
Florges B- --> B
Glalie-mega B --> B-
Cloyster B --> B-
Houndoom --> Added to B- !!
Vaporeon --> Added to C+
Golem-Alola --> Added to C-
Bruxish B --> C
Emboar C --> C-
Porygon2 B+ --> B
Linoone B --> C+
Torkoal B --> C+
Delphox --> Unranked
Whimsicott --> Unranked
Smeargle --> Unranked
Qwilfish --> Unranked
Cofagrigus --> Unranked
Decidueye --> Unranked
Comfey --> Unranked
Klinklang --> Unranked
Leafeon --> Unranked
Charizard --> Unranked
Venusaur B --> C+
Honchkrow B --> B-
Lycanroc-Dusk C+ --> B-
Jellicent B- --> C
Kingdra B- --> C
Reasoning:

Gonna keep this brief since most of it was discussed itt. Kingdra and Jellicent moved down since both of them are largely outclassed and seldom find use on good teams. Kingdra is a worse Blastoise or Zygarde depending on the set it uses, and Jellicent faces stiff competition with Slowbro/Slowking and most importantly, Milotic. The C ranks were cleared out of largely unviable Pokemon that no one uses anymore and that have a miniscule at best niche. Rotom-C suffers from many trends, including Noivern's popularity and competition with Roserade and Shaymin which are significantly better and also serve as common checks. Yanmega, while good, struggles to fit on teams due to its massive SR weakness and need for additional support outside of that, so it was not suited to be ranked alongside more common and self-sufficient metagame staples. Likewise, Porygon2 is generally overlooked in favor of walls that can more directly counter specific threats rather than opt for a blanket check that struggles against many of the top breakers.

Florges moved up due to its ability to counter Blastoise and Noivern and fit on teams without causing overlaps with other Water-types the way Milotic would. Its unique set of support moves also enable to play a role in maintaining the cohesion of its team's defensive build via wish and heal bell support. Vaporeon was also ranked for similar reasons, but it's a niche bulky Water that provides Wish and various support moves unlike Milotic and Slowking/Slowbro.

Discussion Points:

Drapion B+ --> A-
Zygarde-10% A --> A+
Tyrantrum A+ --> A
Mandibuzz A --> A-
 

Kink

it's a thug life ¨̮
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I think Florges should be higher than B. B+ makes sense to me.

I used it successfully as an offensive mon for the majority of open and it helped lead me to a semi-finals appearance.

Believe it or not, it has enough power to be used in a specs or cm role. A lot of people might choose to argue with me and say that it's just an inferior Gardevoir, but it definitely does things Gardevoir can't do, namely survive a physical hit and avoid being destroyed by a Doublade after rocks, amongst a couple other niche, opportune roles. The main factor that makes me want to use it over Gard on some teams is the anti-meta trends that Florges can opt to utilize rather effectively. I already mentioned specs, but the CM Z-move is also a nasty bit of work. In general, I think Florges has the versatility needed to be considered a fairly viable mon as opposed to somewhat viable.

You can search my name for replays, if you go back 2-3 weeks with respect to RU ones.
 
Drapion B+ --> A-
Strongly agree, drapion's good typing, good stats and coverage makes it a great mon in the RU metagame.
Zygarde-10% A --> A+
Disagree, band tiny dog does it pretty well rn, dd sets are also cool, but milotic, gligar, and also have to be trapped in outrage to kill min and other grass types make it A.
Tyrantrum A+ --> A
Disagree, band doesn't have switchs, scarf is not bad, it's not as good as it was but i think A+ is correct.
Mandibuzz A --> A-
Agree, while it's not a bad mon, A- is better rank for it, as it helps w/ roserade, shaymin being x2 stealth rock damaged does not help.

Also a few noms
Toxicroak A- --> A
Toxicroak is such a great mon now, its ability to switch on milotic, sd boost, ice punch, sucker, knock coverage and good stabs makes it a huge threat.

Necrozma B --> B+
I've seen some of them in ssd and others, stealth rock, nice ability and good coverage fuck drapion but colbur berry is an option.

Medicham B- --> B
Pretty cool mon, huge power is fire but it's a little bit weak and slow.
 
Last edited:
Tyrantrum: Disagree.

Tyrantrum still does what it always did, and the meta didnt really changed in is disfavour. I dont see any serious reason for a drop.

Zygarde 10% : Absolutelly agree.

This mon is crazy, band is really hard to switch-in, ddance is threatning as hell and the Spike support from mons like Roserade is super appreciated. Talking about Roserade...

Roserade --> S Rank

This as been alredy pointed out, but this mon is seryously amazing. Spikes support is super great, good amount of viable set, great variety of differents options like HP Ice, Toxic Spikes and Sleep Powder. Yeah this mon is amazing and surelly deserves S Rank.

With Spikes being amazing again i dont know how much Porygon 2 can offer rn. Being pure normal type doesnt help, and just to prove how poor is the help it offers, heres a replay of snake of porygon 2 just dying and this is the only one battle p2 has been used. So yea in my opinion p2 should drop in B-.

Drapion: ok why not

Being able to pursuit trap psychic and ghost types and Roserade is a really great thing, Knock Off and Poison Jab are both really great moves and Drapion can check Pokèmon that use Sucker Punch has priority, like Toxicroak and Honchkrow. But, if Drapion is gonna rise, Sneasel should rise too. He can revengkill a lot of mons that Drapion cant, still able to pursuit trap the same pokèmon as Drapion, and Ice Shard rn is a really cool priority move. Buuuut he doesnt offers the same defense utility and cant touch Blastoise, so its only natural that Sneasel is 3 ranks under Drapion but again, if Drapion rise Sneasel should too.

Mandibuzz: yeah thanks

ye mandi sucks lol really not much to say since everything has been said alredy

Also agree on a Florges and Toxicroak rise.
 
Last edited:
(best pattern, fight me)
Unranked - C or C-

So after being out of the metagame for about a year, I decided to come back and play around in RU again. And that's when I realized that Vivillon is incredibly dangerous. I believe Vivillon is worthy of ranking for this set:

Vivillon-Monsoon @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Compound Eyes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder
- Quiver Dance
- Substitute
- Hurricane

The set is fairly self-explanatory. Sleep Powder and Quiver Dance are both required for setup, and Substitute is used to give Vivillon free turns if your opponent switches out their sleeping Pokémon. Additionally, if Vivillon is behind a sub and gets a kill, it is impossible for it to be revenge killed in one turn, letting it put something else to sleep, set up, or just pick up a kill with hurricane. Compound Eyes makes Hurricane about as accurate as HJK at 91%, which makes it at least a little reliable for mono-attack. In addition to that, Sleep Powder effectively becomes Spore at 98% accuracy, letting you click it with a little less trepidation. Z-Hurricane is absurdly strong at +1, capable of OHKOing powerful defensive threats such as Milotic, Mandibuzz, and Gligar with little to no prior damage, and get crucial kills on things like Mega Blastoise without having to deal with hurricane's accuracy. Otherwise, it serves as a way to basically garauntee yourself a kill after a boost.

The main question I probably have to answer here is why you should use Vivillon over other setup sweepers, given both a horrific Stealth Rock weakness and inability to break past most rock and steel types. Vivillon's biggest niches are in speed and relative safety. While 89 speed is slightly awkward (you sadly can't tie timid Roserade, but outspeed everything below it) it's fast enough to let Vivillon come in on a lot of breakers and threaten them out with either sleep or a hurricane, and then set up. At +1, which isn't very hard to achieve, Vivillon outspeeds everything that isn't boosted except for scarf Roserade, Shaymin, Salazzle, and Flygon, and at +2 (actually pretty reasonable between sleep and sub) you outspeed everything in the tier. Priority not being that common (first impression and aqua jet from golisopod, Espeed from Zydog, Shadow Sneak from Doublade, Ice Shard from Abomasnow, and various sucker punches that can be played around are about it) also helps it out a lot, as if you play your cards right Vivillon will outright win when you send it out pretty often. Safety is a huge boon to Vivillon as well, as having what essentially amounts to a solidly fast Spore lets Vivillon generate its own free turns, a feat which no other setup sweeper in the tier can claim. If you put something to sleep, you can sub on either their sleep turn or their switch, and then quiver next turn. If they wake up, you can put them back to sleep, and if they switch out then you're at +1 behind a sub and if you've played your cards right are garaunteed at least one kill, possibly more if you kill the one thing that happened to be outspeeding you on their team.

Vivillon's place in the meta is a little tricky. Sadly, it can't hope to break any steel except a weakened Doublade on its own, and rock types that aren't Tyrantrum are tricky unless you weaken them as well. However, there are quite a few points in Vivillon's favour. Vivillon can set up on any water type in the tier except for Haze Milotic (which I hear is being swapped out for Dragon Tail quite a bit now, which doesn't phase subs), of which there's often at least one per team still. Roserade and Shaymin rising is both good and bad for Vivillon, as it doesn't outspeed them naturally, but it can switch in and set up on their scarf sets if they ever lock into Leaf Storm or Seed Flare, and any sort of bulky Rose is just setup fodder. Ninetales being prominent is again good and bad, as Sun makes landing hurricanes pretty annoying, but it is possible to stall out sun turns with Sleep + substitute, and its rise makes Salazzle less prominent due to the two of them competing, and less Salazzle by extension means less Scarf Salazzle ruining your day. Other top threats such as Tyrantrum and Gardevoir are fairly helpless against Vivillon, since they can't switch in on it without Vivillon setting up, Vivillon outspeeds both their scarf sets at +1, and Skystrike OHKOs both after rocks and a boost. Noivern is an issue for it, but sending out Vivillon on one of the opponent's Pokémon not named Noivern usually lets Vivillon win. Offensively checking Vivillon without priority is extremely hard if the opponent sends in Vivillon on something that it beats, as trying to switch or sac anything to get your offensive check in just lets Vivillon set up. This is what makes Vivillon so dangerous - prolonged, somewhat safe setup over multiple turns while not losing much in the way of firepower at lower boost levels if you use your Skystrike right. I believe it is a different and dangerous enough setup sweeper to earn a ranking.

Now, what are Vivillon's downsides? There's three big ones: Stealth Rocks, Rock and Steel types, and Hurricane's shaky accuracy. I don't believe the Stealth Rocks weakness to be as big a deal as people may point out, since Vivillon is usually only going to be switched in once in most games, either as a sac or to set up. Therefore, it can lose half its HP and still do its job often. Additionally, hazard removal is not that difficult to come by in this metagame, so you should always have one on your team by default. Rock and Steel types that aren't Tyrantrum are sadly impossible for Vivillon to break without a lot of boosts. Sleep + Sub can help provide those boosts but vs a Registeel or Bronzong it usually isn't worth it, and you will have to build your team around accounting for that. Personally, I used Alola Golem to trap both, but pursuit trappers such as Drapion or Escavalier or any one of the breakers that pressure them, such as Zydog or Toxicroak also work. This is Vivillon's biggest weakness, but it's by no means insurmountable and is the same as removing other checks and counters to the other various setup sweepers you might use. There's no way to improve Hurricane's accuracy any further, sadly, so you're at the mercy of the Pokégods on this one, but it's not like innaccurate moves are a new concept (Hello, Stone Edge) and all things considered, 91% is a lot better than others.

Note: Most of the defensive Pokémon here are capable of being used for setup fodder if you haven't burned your sleep on them, making boosted calcs fairly reasonable.
+1 252 SpA Vivillon Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 136 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise-Mega: 313-369 (93.9 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 136 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise-Mega: 186-220 (55.8 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Vivillon Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 333-393 (99.7 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 199-235 (59.5 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Vivillon Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Milotic: 289-342 (73.3 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Milotic: 172-204 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Vivillon Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mandibuzz: 366-432 (86.3 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mandibuzz: 219-258 (51.6 - 60.8%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Note: While a lot of these are capable of coming in and hazing or killing Vivillon, most of them require to be at 100% health and have something else asleep, otherwise it's business as usual for Vivillon. being behind a sub also means all of these except haze Milotic can fall to it regardless, making its matchup versus these common defensive Pokémon quite good.

And for the bad...

+1 252 SpA Vivillon Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 95-112 (26 - 30.7%) -- 7.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Vivillon Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 114-135 (33.7 - 39.9%) -- 27.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Vivillon Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Steelix-Mega: 150-177 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Vivillon Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Rhyperior: 200-236 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Vivillon Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 181-213 (56.2 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Vivillon Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 188 HP / 192+ SpD Snorlax: 249-294 (49 - 57.8%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Note: A lot of these can become doable if you put them to sleep and try and boost more, but it's not worth it in most situations. It is possible to power through them after enough boosts, which is notable, but usually unrealistic.

While offensive Pokémon can't really switch into boosted hurricanes, I included them here to show how Vivillon deals with Pokémon that might try and revenge it.

+1 252 SpA Vivillon Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyrantrum: 269-317 (87.9 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO (Garaunteed after Rocks)
+1 252 SpA Vivillon Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Barbaracle: 199-235 (69.8 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Vivillon Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ninetales: 351-414 (122.2 - 144.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Indirectly one of the best offensive Vivillon switchins due to sun taking Hurricane's accuracy from 91% down to 65%, you do need to skystrike it or stall out sun turns with sub against it)
+1 252 SpA Vivillon Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 313-369 (112.9 - 133.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Vivillon Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meloetta: 283-334 (82.9 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Flygon: 252-297 (83.7 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Noivern: 252-297 (81 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Note: While a lot of these are skystrike calcs, being behind a sub outright negates this and lets you either boost to +2 or click hurricane twice and blow through them anyways. The only ones you really need to Skystrike are Tyrantrum and Ninetales, possibly Barb too as it can set up on your hurricane if you aren't behind a sub. Alternately, Sub on Shell smash - Quiver on the next attack - +2 Skystrike deals with it. Others, such as scarf Gardevoir or Meloetta at +0, can't OHKO a +1 Vivillon from full or even after one sub, letting you risk two hurricanes or boost + hurricane if you want.

Note: These are much lower on the ladder than I'd like to be, but I believe they get the point across decently well and I don't have as much time as I used to to try to ladder higher, so this is what I've got.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-814654284
After being put in a poor position for most of the game and having to sac two Pokémon to Rhyperior, Vivillon brings back a 1-4 situation by itself. I was required to Quiver against Rhyperior to outspeed Virizion so it couldn't Stone Edge me for free, but the risk paid off and I won.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-814656599
After trapping Escavalier early in the game and killing Snorlax, Vivillon had free reign against my opponent's slow team. Once again, I had to boost against Rhyperior to outspeed the non-Scarf Shaymin and ensure a win.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-815080440
A more unusual replay where Vivillon comes in multiple times a game to threaten stuff. Even unboosted, Hurricane is still 120 Base Power, and that's on full display here as it picks off Tsareena and a weakened Gardevoir that gave away its scarf before coming back in later to sweep. I forgot about Overcoat on Mandi here, which is a little embarrassing, but it didn't matter and Vivillon still won.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ru-815098488
At first glance, this looks really bad. Vivillon can't break either AV Slowking or Steelix without a lot of boosts, Mandibuzz can't be put to sleep, and Bulky Heat Rotom takes boosted hurricanes surprisingly well. Despite that, Vivillon gets in once on the one Pokémon it does match up very well against - Toxicroak, and proceeds to take out all six of my opponent's Pokémon. Luck was definitely on my side, but even if Slowking didn't hit itself and broke my sub I could hurricane it and then set up elsewhere later.

I'm aware that these are pretty low-ladder replays, sadly, but I feel like they get the point across.

Overall, I believe that Vivllon's ability to choose when to set up, access to safer setup than what most get, speed, and power are enough to warrant a placement somewhere in the C rankings.
 
Arcanine

download.gif


UNRANKED -> B+/A-

Maybe this is kind of early to do this? I don't know? But, I think we should start focusing more on the new Pokemon who came from our recent tier shift in the V.R, right now.


From the D Rank's of UU a fiery dog laid, pouting when it'd be stooping down to RU (because it's outclassed by other things). The people who want it here, it has spoken! They gave us (people in RU) the fiery dog known so much as the "Legendary Pokemon" (even though it's not an actual legendary, says on Pokedex) a breathe of fire in the name of Arcanine!

Rundown:

Arcanine has a nice Attack stat of 110, a decent 100 Sp.Attack (although it isn't used, its still nice for gimmicky sets), decent 95 Speed (competes with other Fire types like Houndoom in the tier), and all around bulky spread of 90/80/80. Two great abilities in Intimidate and Flash Fire really compliment it in the meta where Ninetales is becoming popular, and it's full of physical attackers. It's also got great moves like Flare Blitz which can penetrate through some of the big walls in the tier or at least do decent damage. It's got Extreme Speed to make it revenge kill most foes and can do decent damage to Pokemon who switch into Arcanine. Its coverage isn't bad either, like Wild Charge, which gives the power to hit Bulky Water Types like (Milotic, Mega Blastoise, Mantine, Golisopod, and Araquanid). Close Combat is also a great coverage move because it hits things that switch-in on Arcanine such as (Tyrantrum, Rhyperior, Snorlax, and others). Crunch is also not bad for Bulky Ghost Mon(s) like Alolan Marowak for instance. Last but not least, an honorable coverage move that I think most people overlook is Outrage, this move, while having the repercussion of not being able to switch out when you use the move, is not bad coverage for annoying Dragon Types, such as (Kingdra (I guess), Dragalge, Flygon, Zydog, Tyrantrum, and Noivern) for Super-Effective Damage. (I recommend it being used with a Z Move).​

Also, one of the major reasons people don't like using Arcanine is RECOIL. With Flare Blitz and Wild Charge doing recoil damage on it and a weakness to Stealth Rock, this Pokemon will get worn down quite easily and will have chances to not easily survive longer on teams. It also faces competition as a Fire Type by (Ninetales (Drought + Nasty Plot), Salazzle (Nasty Plot + Acid Downpour with a nice Sp.Attack and fast Speed), and Houndoom lasty with (Nasty Plot + Darknium Z and Taunt).
Now, here are the commonly useful sets Arcanine can run in RU.​
Arcanine @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Morning Sun
- Flare Blitz
- Wild Charge
- Extreme Speed
Arcanine @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat/Crunch
- Flare Blitz
- Wild Charge
- Extreme Speed
Overall though, I still think it's a good Pokemon for the RU meta who can shake somethings up in this tier. Now lets look at the Calculations for this Pokemon​
252 Atk Choice Band Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Steelix-Mega: 218-260 (61.5 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​
252 Atk Choice Band Arcanine Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 208-246 (48 - 56.8%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery​
252 Atk Choice Band Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Blastoise-Mega: 111-132 (34.1 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO​
252 Atk Choice Band Arcanine Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 220-260 (55.8 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery​
Hopefully, this can explain Arcanine in the meta and will hopefully will have the Viability Rankings I proposed. Thank you, for whoever is reading this, if you want to suggest edits, PM me on the Fourm and enjoy!​
 
Last edited:
Sorry for the double post but its time to revive this thread.
Lets begin with the new 3 mons

Mantine--> A/A-

1539970825116.png

This mon is amazing just like before not really much to say. That flying type give him a nice advantage vs grass types and cant be setup fodder of Toxicroak and Virizion thanks to Air Slash, but the lack of physical bulk and the weakness to Stealth Rocks really hurts. Toxic is also an option over Scald if you dont need it to check fire mons like Houndoom and Salazzle.

Arcanine --> Read Ethereal Balls post

1539971418357.png
Just adding that HP Ice is a cool option on the Morning Sun + 3 Attacks set for Noivern and Gligar.

Seismitoad--> B-/C+

1539971920003.png

Cool movepool and cool ability, but the lack of recovery and a non so great typing doesnt really help him, (Its surelly better then Jellicent tho)

So now, im going to make some nominations on the old mons after those meta shifts.

Lycanrock B- --> B+/B
1539972418527.png

Those shifts really helped him gettin better and the fact that people prefer to run Registeel over Bronzong really help him. SD + Lycanium Z + Accelerock is really scary and good, and Drill Run is a really cool coverage option.

Sawk UR --> C

1539972757427.png
Ajna used Sawk 2 times in snake, and in those 2 times Sawk really did a great job. Sturdy + god like coverage really give him a good niche over others figthning types.

Goodra C+ --> B/B-
1539972935957.png

This mon alredy got nominated in the past and it should have rised since than, so im just gonna promote this nomination again.
Bronzong A ---> A-

Worst regi and the VR should make that clear.

Chesnaught B --> B-

its probably better if we put ches at the same rank of the other spikes setters like Froslass and Mega Glalie.

I still agree with all the nominations i alredy did before expect Toxicroak, and probably Nidoqueen and Salazzle deserves a rise too, but im not too sure.
 
Zygarde has more than proven itself as one of the tiers most dangerous mons in the tier due to the drawback free move that is thousand arrows which gives it the ability to steamroll mons some ground types can't deal with as well like bronzong and it gives it the ability to spam it due to having no immunities. Dragon dance sets are relatively hard to check reliably with traditional means as devastating drake lets it muscle past traditional answers to it like milotic and other fat mons that can comfortably wall band. It also preys on the fact band was it's best set letting it lure in traditional checks and opening up a sweep for itself. Extreme speed also gives it utility aside from cleaning letting it revenge kill stuff and makes normal revenge killers not as reliable vs it.


I can get behind this. Stall not being prominent hinders the taunt toxic sets role as a stallbreaker, while noivern has given it competition for the same role generally reducing it to being a bit more niche compared to when it first dropped while defog is extremely subpar and not worth using. Because it is weak to rocks mandibuzz can sometimes fail to check the stuff it's meant to and it tends to bait in fighting types because it often doesn't have room for brave bird.


Neutral on this one as while it can be very deadly to switch into, the choice band sets tend to be very easy to revenge kill and registeel being the prominent steel type hurts it. Scarf tyrantrum also has issues with other scarfers and it fails to outrun certain setup sweepers and struggles to make use of its resistances due to its nonexistent special bulk though it can serve as a one time check to the likes of noivern(seeing as draco meteor is very uncommon and hard to find room for), ninetales, or salazzle if needed.


This is easily the best pursuit trapper in the tier because of a few key traits it has. Drapion has enough natural bulk and the typing to come in on the stuff it would like to trap and it outspeeds the key targets it traps like meloetta, roserade, bronzong(also immune to toxic and gyro ball doesn't kill it like sneasel making it much safer to bring it in to remove it).


Bronzong should be ranked below registeel imo due to the fact bronzong is much squishier meaning it isn't nearly as adept at doing the steel type duties for its team as registeel is and the fact that it's far more exploitable. Bronzongs 67/116/116 vs registeel's 80/150/150 bulk is a massive difference especially when it comes to checking stuff a steel type is put on the team for. Just to give a few demonstration of the difference:


252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 135-159 (37 - 43.6%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bronzong: 168-198 (49.7 - 58.5%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Registeel has the ability to put up rocks without going down in 2 hits while it can also protect to get some hp back while bronzong gets 2hkod and can't protect because it's outclassed by registeel if it runs toxictect as it needs offensive moves to make the most out of it. Because it has to run offensive moves its significantly more prone to getting worn down but the biggest flaw is its typing giving it a very undesirable weakness to pursuit. This makes bronzong a lot more exploitable and prone to getting removed by a pursuit trapper while registeel is much harder to remove from play. These factors are why I think registeel should always be a subrank above bronzong.


The meta has honestly just been getting kinder and kinder to lycanroc. The drop of bronzong, chesnaught being nowhere to be seen, flygon dropping off sharply means it's much easier for it to pull off a sweep and the prevalence of stuff like noivern and salazzle gives it opportunities to set up for a boost or revenge kill them with accelrock. It also appreciates the grass types exploiting major obstacles to it like rhyperior.
 

Windsong

starfall
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Haven't posted here in ages, but just some quick thoughts re: new mons now that I've got some experience w/ the meta.

Mantine: B+/A-. Probably the best Blastoise counter in the tier, but has some fundamental issues--the fish is super passive, and being rocks weak makes it relatively easier to pressure than comparable defoggers. Overall a good mon, but I think it's getting a lot more hype than deserved right now.

Arcanine: B. Physical fire STAB isn't good in this tier. Bulky sets are fine, but pure fire is pretty bad defensive typing, and you're not breaking physically defensive Milo unless you catch it on the switch (252 Atk Life Orb Arcanine Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 190-226 (48.2 - 57.3%)), and even if you do you're losing Arcanine in the process. I think we'll find some niche for it in semi stall or stall, but until then it's not great. It's got cool type coverage I guess. Could probably go lower but I'll hold off completely dismissing it for now.

Ribbiter: B-. Good typing, cool resistances, and can set up rocks. Only real disappointments are the lack of recovery (outside of smooth water absorb plays) and quad grass weakness. I really don't like giving free turns to Shaymin and Roserade, especially with Z-Celebrate Shaymin being a thing, but the frog can work as a good glue mon to tie teams together.

Other stuff that I feel strongly about:

Ninetales: A -> A+. Ninetales is phenomenal. Firium-Z NP sets can sweep outright. Choice Specs is one of the best wallbreakers in the tier--specs Overheats in the sun just rip holes in the standard balanced/bulky offense teams. None of the things that (in theory) switch in are all that playable rn, and there's enough passive stuff in the tier to let you repeatedly get in for free. The only real outside support you need is a Defogger/Spinner, but Stoise is the best mon in the tier and defoggers are everywhere, so that really shouldn't be an issue.

Meloetta: Could probably raise given how absurd Z-Celebrate is. You've got one of the best late game cleaners in the tier that can set up against pretty much any special attacker, and you can afford to run something like 72/252+/184 and outspend everything you need to. You've also got a ton of flexibility with Z-Hyper Voice alongside Z-Cele to dunk stuff midgame.
 

MrAldo

♦♣♥♠
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
UPDATE TIME

Code:
New rankings for recent drops:

Arcanine A-
Mantine B+
Seismitoad B

Rises:

Zygarde-10% from A to A+
Doublade from A- to A
Meloetta from A- to A
Lycanroc-Dusk from B- to B
Goodra from C+ to B-
Machamp from C+ to B-
Rotom-Heat removed since it went to UU

Drops:

Gardevoir from A+ to A
Tyrantrum from A+ to A
Bronzong from A to A-
Mandibuzz from A to A-
Cloyster from B- to C+
Mega Glalie from B- to C+
Marowak Alola from B- to C+

New rank addition:

Vivillon added to C :clap:
Ninetales was nommed to move up but with the new drops in Arcanine and Mantine providing more solid countermeasure to it we believe it is far more manageable than before now and that should be reflected in the rankings. Still a dominant force but one that is easier to prepare with more checks and increasing the general speed tier of a team.

In general all the rises have shown general success in recent tours and with that I feel rewarding them with a rise is totally deserved. The drops have been neglected or in general havent been as effective lately. Cloyster, Mega Glalie, and Marowak were some of the neglected that were selected for the chopping block but with the community input we can find what else shouldnt be on a rank or something.

Discussion points:

Dunno, can be anything really. We would like some more input on Drapion and some other stuff to consideration:

- Gigalith to B-?
- Sigilyph to B+?

From here shoot up your wildest nominations and as long as it is backed up with good info no reason to be afraid to share it. Congrats to Miyami for ranking Vivillon. Cya around!
 

Sage

✿Praise✿Atua✿
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Moderator
Drapion B + -> A-

I think Drapion's consistency as a trapper warrants a place in the A ranks, and it's also one of the few Knock Off users common in the tier. I think there are sets that can mitigate its weaknesses such as Dread Plate Earthquake to help make a Barb able to be revenged, as well as Toxic Spikes being surprisingly annoying to a lot of teams, leading to an Eviolite-less Gligar often and allowing stuff like Zydog to break through more easily, and in general it is very customizable to what your team needs with even Scarf getting some usage as a utility RKer.

Arcanine: A- -> B+

Dont get me wrong I think Arcanine is ok, but probably not consistent enough to warrant a spot in A- for now. It doesn't really have a defined go to set yet, with CB and LO 3 Attacks slowly asserting themselves in the meta, and defensive sets haven't really found a team they fit well on. CB has very good coverage but it is prone to killing itself off hazards and recoil and is still pretty prediction reliant to get KOs. Life Orb runs into more mons that can safely tank it while still relying on hitting on switch to get rid of Milotic and such which hampers its effectiveness (although HP ice is pretty cool).

Vikavolt: C- -> C+/B-

Has a ton of useful attributes over Ampharos and is much more consistently useful than almost everything in the C ranks. Levitate + instant recovery let's it abuse Ground-type so much more easily (notably walling Steelix) and fire off stronger attacks than Ampharos (with boosting item.) It's also super important that it doesn't take your Mega slot and you can run it with Blastoise. It does have weaknesses in its lower bulk, lack of Fire + Water resistances, and Rocks weakness, but I think it's positive qualities are more than enough for a significant rise. Pearl and Ajna used it well testing for Slam / Snake respectively and I just lost to a well played Vika against LegendarySerperior in a room tour lol, it's a pretty cool breaker check it out.

Other stuff I agree with:

Rises:
Machamp to B edit: panda too
Goodra to B
LycanDusk to B+

Drops:
Cresselia to B-
 
Last edited:
I want to nominate heliolisk but I play uu mainly so I only have uu replays :(
But 4% usage at 1760 (same as linoone) deserves some thought.
 
First of all i hardly disagree with a Cresselia drop, its literally the best blanket check we have in the tier, thanks to the immunity to spikes and psychic typing to handle Figthing-types that are really good rn. Cresselia is ok where it is.

As i said, Figthing-types are really good rn, and that hurts Snorlax viability. For example, it was used only 5 times on snake with only one win, where it literally did nothing and won for hax. This mon needs too much support and its too much mu depending. Checking fire types is cool, but we just got 2 other checks for them.

Emboar is something i can see getting d-ranked, literally 0 usage over the whole snake and now that we have arcanine it seems pointless.

Noivern got overhyped for quite a long time, but now i can see this mon dropping. The things it was supposed to check lost usage, its typing isnt attractive as it was and its relatively easy to counter/check.

Unrank or C-, this mon has literally no usage in both ladder and tours, needs WAY too much support to actually work and his niche is really bad. Worthless in any sense.

also agree with every rises in sages post.
 
if anything vern has only solidified its utility in typing / speed control / taunt as we have seen the continued prevalence of lures like hp ice min (or even rose, though admittedly that's partly for sdef glig / mandi) and an uptick in florges usage..

anyway i agree with a drapion rise, the combination of toxic immunity + sd + knock off is very overwhelming for the cookie cutter gligar steel water balance, especially when you take into consideration poison z's growing popularity which is great for the bulky water. of course with the new drops we're seeing some new cores like toad / doub / mandi that can more easily combat drapion but i steel feel as though it has worked itself up into a good spot, and of course band (and even scarf) have had their fair shares of success as well

i feel like chesnaught / cresselia / porygon2 will see an uptick in usage for their ability to blanket check some of the more threatening pokemon at the moment - zygarde-10, doublade, roserade, gardevoir, fighting types (cress) - keep in mind i'm not saying ches / cress / p2 check all of these pokemon, just some for each

i can see sigi rising, it's very under explored and i feel like people just run right to their gligars, doublades, and fighting types to deal with steels but sigi can do that flawlessly and has a fucking cool movepool (lo + coverage hits like everything hard) and great speed tier

i don't have much more to say, but rose should move to s anytime now, it's impossible to switch into and then has spikes that nothing can clear against.. yuck lol

edit at below:

arcanine is literally amazing and deserves its place, if you think its bad then youre using a bad set

lo and ice / electric / fire coverage is literally impossible to switch into except for like seismitoad and even then you have a free move (usually morning sun) to further punish fat, that is like so good.. band is only mediocre and idk if defensive is good or not i haven't used it plus arc has decent defensive utility on offensive sets (typing / ability) and it has a great speed tier too
 
Last edited:

Senpai D.M

さようなら
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Last edited:
Drapion rising to A- Agree: Gonna agree with Sage on this one. Drapion is very consistent at what you want it to do, and knock off as always is a blessing. SD can be fairly hard for balanced teams to deal with combined with having a fairly good speed tier. Haven't personally tried Z-move Drap but sounds cool, I seem to gravitate to Scarf Drap for speed control and while it's power leaves a little to be desired, it is great for getting kills on other general scarf users and faster offensive threats.

Arcanine falling to B+ - Agree: Wanted to suggest this in the first place, but never had a real reason to post in long form. Arcanine is really cool at times, but finds itself hard to place on teams in general, couple that with at various times wanting to be all its sets (Z-move, Banded, or LO) at once b/c of a need for extra power, versatility or a one hit killer move, it falls short in various situations that requires it to need a generous amount of support. I prefer CB Arc so far just due to the fact with the right click of a move which surprisingly enough is actually CC for me over Flare Blitz since fighting moves have such a wide hit radius, will get the job done with a set of SR, leaving me to Flare Blitz things later. That said, Arcanine struggles with consistency in general and with SR weakness and almost never really getting a good chance to use Morning Sun unless it's against an excessively passive team giving it longevity issues makes me feel B+ is more appropriate.

Goodra Rising - Agree: A grass type is generally appreciated on any team in the current metagame, and many of the grass types struggle to put a dent into Goodra due to its bulk, leaving it ample opportunities to switch in and forcing people to be aggressive against it when using a grass type. The only grass that doesn't really have that issue is Virizion (and mega aboma but I don't remember the last time I fought one). Also being able to run a range of sets from bulk to offensive choice items makes it hard to predict against at times tbh. I think rising to B is good, but I could also see if metagame trends continue favoring the need/want of grass types that B+ or higher wouldn't be out of the question.

Cresselia Dropping - Disagree: I know people think it can be pretty useless at times because it's just fat and doesn't do much beyond absorbing hits, but I agree with the above assessment that it's a great blanket check when needed for typing resistances, immunity thanks to levitate, and it learns so many support moves that it can be a general asset to teams.

Sigilyph: I think Sigi is more than fine in the realm of B for now. While it it under explored, the power creep so far hasn't been the nicest to it, and it does have certain struggles in getting opportunities to showcase itself. Great movepool to be threatening and to bop things with unexpectedly, but I haven't seen too much consistency in Sigilyph to think it warrants a rise.
 
Hi so this is my first post ever even after 2yrs of smogon I hope that goes to show just how adamant I am about this:

ROSERADE TO S RANK.

Look Roserade is absolutely incredbile in this tier. It's been noted alread by previous users and it's constantly a discussion in chat. Roserade is not only RUs primo grass type but RUs primo poison which is very important in a tier with good mons like Drapion, Nidoqueen, and the occasional Golbat (although it functions a different role). The most defining trait of roserade is that it consistently runs the same 3 attacks yet remains a top level threat. Rose's coverage is relatively amazing and it has stats to back all of it up. While physically weak this is a meager issue circumvented by smart play. Rose absolutely dominates the tier offensively.
It maintains multiple sets that are all entirely viable. Scarf Rose not only grants speed control but can even prevent the queen scarfer that is Gardevoir from coming in and ending its run. Rose runs undoubtedly the best LO set in the tier, and the set doesn't suffer from 4MSS as you can choose spikes/TSpikes for HO, sleep powder, or synthesis for longevity. The synthesis LO set is even able to 1v1 the prototypical Registeel, as well as render the switch obselete entirely if it gets a predict. Rose will utterly smack almost every mon in the tier on a switch. Depending on the move selected Gligar, Noivern, Flygon, Rhyperior, Milotic, Registeel, taunt Mandibuzz, Bronzong, MegaLix, Ampharos freaking Mega, Nidoqueen, Escavalier, M-Blastoise(the as of date only s mon in the tier), Doublade, Emboar, Forretress, Florgess, Arcanine, Espeon, Barbacle, Shaymin like the list just goes on. All of these mons either can not switch in at all, cant switch with a predict, or will take over 50% and be crippled. Even the offensive pressure that is Salazzle is 2banged by the LO SBomb and z-posion sets. If it tries to setup on a switch and gets called for a 2nd sludge bomb it dies. Rade survives a +2 sneak and beats Doublade, Bewear can't handle it without a sacrificial switch, it wins against an LO queen's EP and from full only has a 6.7% chance to lose to ice beam, It'll also 1Bang Escavalier, even mons like max spdef bulk drapion will take slightly over 1/3 from a leaf storm on a switch and have no reliable recovery and leave it susceptible for the rest of the game.
Now does Rade have mons that can handle it? Yes. Alolawak, Cresselia, bulky Necrozma, Dragalge, Mantine, AV Meloetta, Umbreon, Goodra, and Porygon2 all can manage Rade. It's like any other RU mon you can't just throw it out mid game and garuntee a win, however this mons is arguably the overall best mon in the tier, it is undoubtedly the very most splashable mon in the tier, even serves a niche in UU as a grass type punisher for bulky waters, and cannot be overlooked in RU lest you risk imminent failure.. But basically every mon that isn't one of these 10 mons (and half of those 10 mons aren't even heavily used because theyre either too passive or outclassed which further exacerbates my point) are just utterly destroyed by Rade in some way or another. The biggest struggle for rose at all is Goodra and it's only due to natural stats, but Goodra is also a special mon in RU. It doesn't function as a consistent true counter to the incredibly tiny downsides to using Roserade, and they are utterly eclipsed by how incredibly good it is, in conjuction with the incredible support it can so choose to give dependant on team/playstyle.

In conclusion not only I, but many players, and even some mods, have stated and understand that Roserade is absurdly good in RU. It's not ban worthy but dear lord is it good and there is very little in the tier comparatively to combat the positive traits vs how little negatives it has. In spite of the shortcomings it does have it commits so much offensive pressure for your team and does it reliably every game. It can take on over 50% of the tier and then can heavily threaten another 30% of the tier. Realistically I can't think of a mon in RU more deserving of S tier than this absolute champion of a pokemon.
 
Last edited:
Sawk

1543430492359.png
(sorry for my english, im from LA)
What a beast, Sawk is an awesome mon for different things.

The first is its amazing base stats, pretty decent defenses combined with the ability of Sturdy/Mold Breaker make this mon, able to fulfill an offensive pivot role with the z move.

The second is his good movepool suitable for his attack and the variety of sets he can have, such as Scarf, Band, Z Move, etc.

And these are my reasons why I think Sawk should scale from UR - C
 
Last edited:
Iconic first VR Post
Attention Pokemon Fans : Roserade needs YOUR help.
Mega Blastoise is spinning away everyone's hazards, and soon enough the meta just won't be able to compete.
Help Roserade by giving your credit card number, the three digits on the back, and the expiration date, so Roserade can Leaf Storm Mega Blastoise away.


So, as stated before, this is my first VR post despite having kept tabs on this forum for a bit, so I thought it was high time I put my two sense in here.

Rises

So I must start with the pokemon I was memeing about, Roserade
download_14.png
A+ -> S
TheFugginKid put it better, but this mon is just destructive, really good and it even has the niche of Sp. Def Rest + Natural Cure. Not much else I can say here that hasn't already been said, other than this mon deserves to be S Rank.

Speaking of things being deserved
Heliolisk.jpg
UR -> B/B+
Seeing as Helio is already on a handful of teams, it is just perplexing to see it Unranked. It's great in a meta where Good Offensive Electric Types, and with Mantine around, it would be nice to rank what (to me at least) what is its greatest counter. And it even has the coveted Volt Switch, and isn't faster than it needs to be, with the only relevant mon that outspeeds it is Lycandusk. As I said before, it is on a number of relevant teams, so, it seems nearly criminal to not rate it.

7eb6bb97a2a0b3e93319a6c66b0d8430.png
B+ -> A-
Mantine is amazing for 2 major reasons, or rather, the lack or two arguments against it. Electric Types, and Toxic. Let me tackle them in order. There are not a lot of Electric Mons in the tier and grass was always to Go-to when talking about mega blastoise or the other plethora of bulky waters. But with Mantine around, and Galvantula Outclassed by Arquanid as a web setter, and Jolteon being straight up blacklisted clears this out of relevant Electric Types other than Alolan Golem, who isn't exactly a star performer. Second, the relevance of Steel Types, Poison Types, and Gligar has severely reduced the usage of Toxic, one of Mantine's other great counter (But then again, it counters a good majority of walls). To my knowledge, it's only ever consistently on Registeel, due to it not being able to do effective damage otherwise. Other mons can, and do use Toxic, but it's not has ever-present as it is in other tiers, and also, it is worth noting Gligar, who can eat both Toxic, and Electric Moves, and Mantine can eat Ice moves that aren't Freeze Dry (Which nothing trully relevant in RU gets).

eee24bba3afe2c4b9d3c9c14e2bed5e1d412b286_00.jpg
B+ -> A-
Drapion is an Amazing Trapper, which most people have already pointed out. It can eat Roserade Attacks, and prevent it from switching due to it's mediocre Physical Defense. His coverage is great, he invalidates Toxic and Toxic Spikes, and can dumpster-truck things with Knock Off. He hits hard and has decent coverage, and preys on a meta lacking in true ground offensive mons other than nidoqueen.

Machamp.png
B- -> B/B+
Machamp isn't that great imo. That is, they way most people use him, which is by making him boneless Conkeldurr with Flame Orb. However, by donning an old set that he used in DPPt, I found quite some relevance from this boyo. This set, is an aggressive lead. He has the coverage to deal with several leads, and actually can actually bait and kill mons with it, because Machamp in lead throws people off their guard (Heheh). No Gaurd + Dynamic Punch, because Close Combat is useless on the lead set, and Assault Vest keeps you alive. Knock Off is generally a good option, and I reccomend using it in tandem with D-Punch to get all the Steels. Then, just run whatever 2 Coverage moves suit your team. Need to out Gligar? Ice Punch. Blastoise, Mantine, and Milotic Giving you problems? Thunder Punch. He can even tank and kill Gardevoir with Poison Jab if the damage roll plays in your favor. He isn't consistent though, he can range from taking out 3 to damaging 1 heavily but going down anyway. However, taking out 3+ opposing mons for 1 happens often enough to consider this guy.


Vivillon.jpg
C -> C+
Vivillon is a great mon that can Provide its allies with game changing Sleep Support. That being said, it does have a few issues. One of them being Mantine, but this had to deal with Specially Defensive Mons before. It mostly struggles with priority, which is somewhat of a good thing, seeing as priority isn't played in too many teams. The Other issue is that its dual STAB isn't that helpful. However, with proper setup, this mon can easily be a game ending cleaner, and it is one of the best mons at abusing the RU Speed gap.

Drops

Salazzle.jpg
B+ -> B
Just not that great any more, it can abuse the Speed Gap by running less than max speed and still blaze through everything, but Mantine just destroys it, and that's not to say anything of Arcanine. It's too frail, requires too much, and just isn't that great to be eating your Z-Crystal Slot.

Questioning

e07412fe194d3472ce61f06da4554d2b.jpg

So, I think this just traps steel types, I might be wrong, but even then, I wanna know.
How many can it can consistenly?
Is it any good outside of Traping Steel Types?

mega_abomasnow_by_nganlamsong-d6x64qk.png

What niche does this have to be ranked so damn high?

Sawk.jpg

In Response to the post above, I just wanna know what set you're talkin' about, I'd love to test this boy out, so if you could perhaps tell me what Sawk is good at doing or what it generally runs, that'd be appreciated.
 
Iconic first VR Post
Attention Pokemon Fans : Roserade needs YOUR help.
Mega Blastoise is spinning away everyone's hazards, and soon enough the meta just won't be able to compete.
Help Roserade by giving your credit card number, the three digits on the back, and the expiration date, so Roserade can Leaf Storm Mega Blastoise away.


So, as stated before, this is my first VR post despite having kept tabs on this forum for a bit, so I thought it was high time I put my two sense in here.

Rises

So I must start with the pokemon I was memeing about, Roserade
View attachment 148403 A+ -> S
TheFugginKid put it better, but this mon is just destructive, really good and it even has the niche of Sp. Def Rest + Natural Cure. Not much else I can say here that hasn't already been said, other than this mon deserves to be S Rank.

Speaking of things being deserved
View attachment 148404 UR -> B/B+
Seeing as Helio is already on a handful of teams, it is just perplexing to see it Unranked. It's great in a meta where Good Offensive Electric Types, and with Mantine around, it would be nice to rank what (to me at least) what is its greatest counter. And it even has the coveted Volt Switch, and isn't faster than it needs to be, with the only relevant mon that outspeeds it is Lycandusk. As I said before, it is on a number of relevant teams, so, it seems nearly criminal to not rate it.

View attachment 148405 B+ -> A-
Mantine is amazing for 2 major reasons, or rather, the lack or two arguments against it. Electric Types, and Toxic. Let me tackle them in order. There are not a lot of Electric Mons in the tier and grass was always to Go-to when talking about mega blastoise or the other plethora of bulky waters. But with Mantine around, and Galvantula Outclassed by Arquanid as a web setter, and Jolteon being straight up blacklisted clears this out of relevant Electric Types other than Alolan Golem, who isn't exactly a star performer. Second, the relevance of Steel Types, Poison Types, and Gligar has severely reduced the usage of Toxic, one of Mantine's other great counter (But then again, it counters a good majority of walls). To my knowledge, it's only ever consistently on Registeel, due to it not being able to do effective damage otherwise. Other mons can, and do use Toxic, but it's not has ever-present as it is in other tiers, and also, it is worth noting Gligar, who can eat both Toxic, and Electric Moves, and Mantine can eat Ice moves that aren't Freeze Dry (Which nothing trully relevant in RU gets).

View attachment 148407 B+ -> A-
Drapion is an Amazing Trapper, which most people have already pointed out. It can eat Roserade Attacks, and prevent it from switching due to it's mediocre Physical Defense. His coverage is great, he invalidates Toxic and Toxic Spikes, and can dumpster-truck things with Knock Off. He hits hard and has decent coverage, and preys on a meta lacking in true ground offensive mons other than nidoqueen.

View attachment 148408 B- -> B/B+
Machamp isn't that great imo. That is, they way most people use him, which is by making him boneless Conkeldurr with Flame Orb. However, by donning an old set that he used in DPPt, I found quite some relevance from this boyo. This set, is an aggressive lead. He has the coverage to deal with several leads, and actually can actually bait and kill mons with it, because Machamp in lead throws people off their guard (Heheh). No Gaurd + Dynamic Punch, because Close Combat is useless on the lead set, and Assault Vest keeps you alive. Knock Off is generally a good option, and I reccomend using it in tandem with D-Punch to get all the Steels. Then, just run whatever 2 Coverage moves suit your team. Need to out Gligar? Ice Punch. Blastoise, Mantine, and Milotic Giving you problems? Thunder Punch. He can even tank and kill Gardevoir with Poison Jab if the damage roll plays in your favor. He isn't consistent though, he can range from taking out 3 to damaging 1 heavily but going down anyway. However, taking out 3+ opposing mons for 1 happens often enough to consider this guy.


View attachment 148409 C -> C+
Vivillon is a great mon that can Provide its allies with game changing Sleep Support. That being said, it does have a few issues. One of them being Mantine, but this had to deal with Specially Defensive Mons before. It mostly struggles with priority, which is somewhat of a good thing, seeing as priority isn't played in too many teams. The Other issue is that its dual STAB isn't that helpful. However, with proper setup, this mon can easily be a game ending cleaner, and it is one of the best mons at abusing the RU Speed gap.

Drops

View attachment 148410 B+ -> B
Just not that great any more, it can abuse the Speed Gap by running less than max speed and still blaze through everything, but Mantine just destroys it, and that's not to say anything of Arcanine. It's too frail, requires too much, and just isn't that great to be eating your Z-Crystal Slot.

Questioning

View attachment 148411
So, I think this just traps steel types, I might be wrong, but even then, I wanna know.
How many can it can consistenly?
Is it any good outside of Traping Steel Types?

View attachment 148412
What niche does this have to be ranked so damn high?

View attachment 148413
In Response to the post above, I just wanna know what set you're talkin' about, I'd love to test this boy out, so if you could perhaps tell me what Sawk is good at doing or what it generally runs, that'd be appreciated.
Just worth mentioning - thunderpunch doesn’t hit any waters (besides Mantine) harder than D-punch.

75x2= 150
100x1.5= 150

But it does hit Mantine harder without risking Edge, so there is still that.
 
View attachment 148408 B- -> B/B+
Machamp isn't that great imo. That is, they way most people use him, which is by making him boneless Conkeldurr with Flame Orb. However, by donning an old set that he used in DPPt, I found quite some relevance from this boyo. This set, is an aggressive lead. He has the coverage to deal with several leads, and actually can actually bait and kill mons with it, because Machamp in lead throws people off their guard (Heheh). No Gaurd + Dynamic Punch, because Close Combat is useless on the lead set, and Assault Vest keeps you alive. Knock Off is generally a good option, and I reccomend using it in tandem with D-Punch to get all the Steels. Then, just run whatever 2 Coverage moves suit your team. Need to out Gligar? Ice Punch. Blastoise, Mantine, and Milotic Giving you problems? Thunder Punch. He can even tank and kill Gardevoir with Poison Jab if the damage roll plays in your favor. He isn't consistent though, he can range from taking out 3 to damaging 1 heavily but going down anyway. However, taking out 3+ opposing mons for 1 happens often enough to consider this guy.
Most people run no guard dynamic punch. It's just, most seasonal players and tourney players don't run it all that often. If anything, choice band guts is monstrous. I agree it should be B+ rank but only because of Choice Band Guts. Not a luck reliant dynamic punch set. Some well-known players say that Pangoro does banded better because of STAB Knock Off and a slightly better speed tier but, Machamp can be outright better once guts is activated. Which is not hard to pull off. Milotic - Scald, Registeel - Toxic, certain banded zydoge builds - toxic, certain Arcanine builds - Wisp, certain AOA Mega Blastoise builds - Scald, and probably a few more that I am forgetting. It's crazy how much power machamp has with guts + banded boosted power.
252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 405-477 (102.7 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 117-138 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Gligar: 175-207 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
CryoGyro knows more about the set and could easily give more info on it if he/she wants to.
 
I'd like to raise an argument against Roserade being in S, with my primary point being lack of sheer splashability.
Compared to Mega Blastoise, I don't think Roserade offers the same level of universally valuable traits. Blastoise has the moveset space to fit prefect coverage while maintaining the utility of Rapid Spin, and a Water typing doesn't have major consequences on offensive teams thanks to only one common type threatening it. As such, you're free to fit other great Water-types like Barbaracle and Golisopod alongside it without defensively compromising yourself. Roserade, on the other hand, has too many major type weaknesses to be used alongside others of its types. It therefore takes up a team's "Grass" and "Poison" slots, and I don't think it's good enough in these roles to be considered the outright best. Its somewhat lacking Speed leaves it slower than and sometimes threatened by the two other best Grass-types, Shaymin and Virizion, and unable to Speed tie or outpace one of RU's strongest wallbreakers in Ninetales. It's both weak to Psychic and neutral to Ground, further worsening its potential team synergy. It also suffers from serious four-moveslot syndrome: a Grass STAB move and Spikes are basically required, leaving it with only two moveslots that you want to fill with Sludge Bomb to be a general offensive threat, Hidden Power Fire or Ice to catch various things that resist Grass, Synthesis so you can switch into things without fainting embarrassingly quickly, and Sleep Powder to get Spikes up more safely. Depending on the moves chosen, there are some important things Roserade just can't do, and this has led me to frequently dropping it in favor of Shaymin, which trades Spikes for actually being able to accomplish everything you could want a Grass-type to with 3 attacks + Synthesis. Now, I'm not trying to say Shaymin is outright better--it's undeniable that Roserade's Spikes and greater potential for offensive presence give it a huge edge--but I think the fact that Roserade isn't a "go-to" Grass-type speaks a lot for it not being S-worthy. It's not the Mega Blastoise of Grass-types or Spikes setters; it's not a relatively "risk-free" Pokemon you can slap on offensive teams. It requires more thought than that to be as effective as its supporters praise it for. To have it in S would be to misrepresent its ease of team implementation and use.
View attachment 148404 UR -> B/B+
Seeing as Helio is already on a handful of teams, it is just perplexing to see it Unranked. It's great in a meta where Good Offensive Electric Types, and with Mantine around, it would be nice to rank what (to me at least) what is its greatest counter. And it even has the coveted Volt Switch, and isn't faster than it needs to be, with the only relevant mon that outspeeds it is Lycandusk. As I said before, it is on a number of relevant teams, so, it seems nearly criminal to not rate it.
Could you elaborate on the teams you're referring to?
I can see Heliolisk having a niche, but B is rather drastic. It hasn't been ranked due to its frailty, lack of coverage for common special tanks like Registeel, and lower Speed than Zygarde-10% and Salazzle, two very relevant Pokemon thank you very much. Beating Mantine also isn't as difficult as you imply it to be.
Second, the relevance of Steel Types, Poison Types, and Gligar has severely reduced the usage of Toxic, one of Mantine's other great counter (But then again, it counters a good majority of walls). To my knowledge, it's only ever consistently on Registeel, due to it not being able to do effective damage otherwise.
I wouldn't say Toxic usage has ever declined; you can see it on almost any blanket check here, including Gligar, Milotic, and Mega Steelix, meaning Mantine has to keep switching out against them until it's clear they lack it. I think B+ is still fine for Mantine, it's not particularly difficult to pressure and break through even without Electric-types.
Machamp isn't that great imo. That is, they way most people use him, which is by making him boneless Conkeldurr with Flame Orb. However, by donning an old set that he used in DPPt, I found quite some relevance from this boyo. This set, is an aggressive lead. He has the coverage to deal with several leads, and actually can actually bait and kill mons with it, because Machamp in lead throws people off their guard (Heheh). No Gaurd + Dynamic Punch, because Close Combat is useless on the lead set, and Assault Vest keeps you alive. Knock Off is generally a good option, and I reccomend using it in tandem with D-Punch to get all the Steels. Then, just run whatever 2 Coverage moves suit your team. Need to out Gligar? Ice Punch. Blastoise, Mantine, and Milotic Giving you problems? Thunder Punch. He can even tank and kill Gardevoir with Poison Jab if the damage roll plays in your favor. He isn't consistent though, he can range from taking out 3 to damaging 1 heavily but going down anyway. However, taking out 3+ opposing mons for 1 happens often enough to consider this guy.
Most people run no guard dynamic punch. It's just, most seasonal players and tourney players don't run it all that often. If anything, choice band guts is monstrous. I agree it should be B+ rank but only because of Choice Band Guts. Not a luck reliant dynamic punch set. Some well-known players say that Pangoro does banded better because of STAB Knock Off and a slightly better speed tier but, Machamp can be outright better once guts is activated. Which is not hard to pull off. Milotic - Scald, Registeel - Toxic, certain banded zydoge builds - toxic, certain Arcanine builds - Wisp, certain AOA Mega Blastoise builds - Scald, and probably a few more that I am forgetting. It's crazy how much power machamp has with guts + banded boosted power.
252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 405-477 (102.7 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 117-138 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Gligar: 175-207 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
CryoGyro knows more about the set and could easily give more info on it if he/she wants to.
I do think Machamp deserves a rise, but actually because of this set:

Machamp @ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Facade
- Bullet Punch

Assault Vest makes Machamp, as belren says, a really nasty lead. Instead of No Guard Dynamic Punch, however, this set goes for Guts Close Combat for general power and to be just as strong as the Flame Orb set after switching into Scald or Toxic from common walls. Its bulk is just enough to force trades with plenty of offensive threats, even without a Guts boost, leaving the opposition wide open for a teammate to clean. It has the coverage to hit basically anything it wants to, making it a massive problem for any archetype. A royal pain that deserves higher placement.
Just not that great any more, it can abuse the Speed Gap by running less than max speed and still blaze through everything, but Mantine just destroys it, and that's not to say anything of Arcanine. It's too frail, requires too much, and just isn't that great to be eating your Z-Crystal Slot.
+2 248 SpA Salazzle Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 289-342 (77.2 - 91.4%)
Nice Salazzle destroyer you got there, dead after Stealth Rock. Salazzle's still a great wallbreaker; that Speed and offensive typing force out a ton and don't require all that much support. Sure, plenty of sweepers are probably making better use of a Z, but there's a reason Salazzle used to be S. Arcanine only checks Salazzle with Choice Band Extreme Speed and even that doesn't OHKO, by the way, not sure what you're talking about there.
So, I think this just traps steel types, I might be wrong, but even then, I wanna know.
How many can it can consistenly?
Is it any good outside of Traping Steel Types?
See this
What niche does this have to be ranked so damn high?
It's a potentially monstrous balance breaker that can be well worth building around, with a good amount of tournament success.

I too think the Sawk nomination is too barebones; it'd benefit from sets, replays, and more explanation of why one should use it over other attackers.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top