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Resource RU Viability Rankings - V2

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Thank you to all replies, I really appreciate it.


CryoGyro said:
I wouldn't say Toxic usage has ever declined; you can see it on almost any blanket check here, including Gligar, Milotic, and Mega Steelix, meaning Mantine has to keep switching out against them until it's clear they lack it. I think B+ is still fine for Mantine, it's not particularly difficult to pressure and break through even without Electric-types.
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However, I think I was too drastic with my statement on toxic. Even with the sets you brought up, it's not a staple on any of them. Milotic has several other sets, and (To my knowledge at least) toxic isn't on a majority of them. I just wanted to bring up the fact that unlike other tiers, Toxic isn't near the omnipresent move I know from other tiers. I have gone several games in a row without seeing toxic once. Not to say that it isn't used, but from at least what I have seen, it isn't a crazy insanely used move.


Again, thanks for the reply, I look forward to getting a better understanding of the tier than just my vacuum and headcannon.
 
CryoGyro said:
I too think the Sawk nomination is too barebones; it'd benefit from sets, replays, and more explanation of why one should use it over other attackers.
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Wish I had saved my replays of me play testing around with Sawk on the ladder for this moment honestly, but I'll at least contribute a bit from personal experience.

Sawk isn't going to do a whole lot outside being a Choice Band or Choice Scarf user, any attempt at carving a niche with other moves in its movepool is lackluster or done by something else in the tier. Compared to the other Fighting types in the tier however, I think Sawk has a few points to make it at least something to consider when building a team and you need a Fighting type.

Personal experience I've been using Adamant CB Sawk and it's been really fun so far, it allows me to put pressure on balanced and bulkier teams while not necessarily being too slow. I was drawn to using it mostly due to Sawk having Sturdy which at times can be a pretty solid momentum changer since it lets me be aggressive with Sawk from the get go if I wanted to, or with proper Hazard removal support and keeping my own SR on the field let's me apply pressure in the middle and late game with a destructive CC that really only has a handful of Pokemon that would wanna tank a hit as I don't have to worry about Sawk dying immediately and there is a strong chance of being able to fire off a powerful attack twice at the very least. Sturdy pretty much allows it to be able to trade off with most offensive threats that don't resist CC as I wanted a way to mostly kill off Zydogs, Mega Blastoise, Ninetales, +2 everything Babaracle, and the like without getting completely fucked over by them if need be.

Add in that truthfully, the RU metagame favors pretty much any offensive from the get-go Fighting type due to how great Fighting stab (CC in this case), Knock Off coverage, an Elemental Punch (Ice punch for them Gligars and Noiverns and covering the Grass types freely as well), and a decent range of coverage moves like Poison Jab / EQ / Zen Headbutt / Etc. for hitting other threats as needed really let's something like Sawk find a minor niche tbh. I feel Sawk is completely a viable "choice" when wanting something simple out of a fighting type for a combination of power, speed, and useful ability with a moveset that covers its bases. Does want SR support, absolutely will need hazard removal support, will have various trouble depending on what choice item you are running, little room for innovation or lure sets. Flip side it's not exactly hard to fit any kind of Fighting type on a team, there is relative little difficulty in using it, Sturdy I think is enough to give it a minor C-/C rank niche as an offensive Fighting Breaker (Breaker in general), and it's blue. It's honestly a really simple pokemon and it's not like that's a bad thing or unviable either, sure it's no Machamp, Bewear, Virizion, Panda, or Toxicroak who are all higher due to the mind games they can play on opponents, but it doesn't fall short on power or coverage compared to them.

Anyway that's at least my smaller two cents on Sawk.
 
So, I feel like I must revise and be more clear about my statements on Roserade and Heliolisk. Rade has a fringe defensive set (Meaning bad), but A. It doesn't make it splashable particularly. and B. Foretress is a thing.
Roserade @ Black Sludge
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Synthesis
- Spikes
- Toxic/Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Ground]
The set generally just wants to spread Spikes and scare away Mega Blastoise due to it fearing grass stab (Which is always an option to actually run). Toxic for damage on things, while you stall them out with Synthesis, or just get damage in general from Giga Drain.

The set is fairly tanky. It can tank far more than it should be able to, and HP Ground is quite necessary for Drapion, Salazzle, Doublade and so on and so forth, so it can tank hits from them and not give them free turns, even getting OHKO on Non-Balloon Salazzle.

Heck, it can even tank and OHKO Ninetales back if it's lucky (And you have at least a bit of hazards, but SR generally will get it to low enough to be revenge killed).

252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Roserade in Sun: 276-326 (85.1 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery
vs
4 SpA Technician Roserade Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ninetales: 158-186 (55 - 64.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

As for Heliolisk, here's the set

Heliolisk @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Surf/Dragon Pulse
- Hyper Voice

Also, not running a plus speed nature, because everything faster than it will just outspeed it anyway, and the generally slow tier is just outsped by it anyway (It at worst speed ties with 95 Base speed things with max speed investment, so how many of the 60, including barbaracle, RU pokemon have 95 or higher base speed? 17, and a small handful of these don't play themselves as speed demons, mainly the 95 base speed ones though, not including them brings the number, but a final thing to note is that a lot of these ones are rather low tiered, Jolteon, Galvantula, Linoone, Glalie-Mega, ect.)

He's kinda frail, but RU is rather kind to him, a lot of high-usage water types are susceptible to high-damage Volt Switches/Thunderbolt. Hyper Voice is a nice unresisted STAB move that can be used where T-Bolt Fails. And Surf hits the Ground types.

It is worth noting that he can strap on Waterium-Z to more effectively deal with Mega Steelix, but that's only in the case where he's low on health.

Dragon Pulse can be used on the Plethora of Dragons that resist his T-Bolts, mainly Goodra and Dragalge. Cresselia, Florges, and Bronzong check it fairly well, but that's what we have trappers for.

Araquanid Web Support is nice, and it makes Heliolisk a decent choice teams that want a piece a piece of offensive momentum.
 
There’s a number of things with this post I’m not quite getting.
Rade has a fringe defensive set (Meaning bad)
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Here you’re admitting this set is not that great, which is fine, though I’m not really sure why this really deserves a mention when discussing it potentially being S rank.
but A. It doesn't make it splashable particularly. and B. Foretress is a thing.
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Then you make it seem like there are some good qualities with it but then list vague negatives. Forretress checks completely different Pokemon compared to Roserade and are hardly comparable as spikers, even if this is a bulkier set.
The set in general doesn’t really have that much appeal over an offensive variant and is unfortunately passive against a lot more than you’d like with the mon.
Heck, it can even tank and OHKO Ninetales back if it's lucky (And you have at least a bit of hazards, but SR generally will get it to low enough to be revenge killed).

252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Roserade in Sun: 276-326 (85.1 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery
vs
4 SpA Technician Roserade Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ninetales: 158-186 (55 - 64.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
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These calcs are far too skewered into Roserade’s favor, it’s not fair to assume the Ninetales is going to have Stealth Rock and a Spike on their side, while Roserade has to deal with nothing when it has a very good chance of dying after Stealth Rock itself.
Heliolisk @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Surf/Dragon Pulse
- Hyper Voice
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There’s no excuse to make this slower than Ninetales/Shaymin/Virizion if you can help it, later on you list less viable examples but glance over these for whatever reason. Also, Florges ain’t trapped by anything.

As for Roserade actually rising, I was leaning towards agreeing but a bit on the fence now. It is fairly strong and Spikes are excellent of course, but lack of a Thousand Arrows resist and things like Drapion and Arcanine getting more common makes building a bit awkward after slapping on a Roserade/Blastoise core.

And no, I don’t oppose Heliolisk being ranked somewhere, but I find it annoying how the main advocates overlook its flaws or make baseless one-liners. It’s genuinely decent for an offensive pivot considering nothing safely blocks Volt Switch and Dry Skin forces opposing Waters to play differently when Heliolisk is in the back, but outside of that it has near 0 defensive utility and can’t touch certain sp def walls, without sacrificing better coverage. Speed tier’s fine but not perfect, as being Zydog bait is never good, and it doesn’t comfortably revenge kill a good amount of offensive Pokemon without notable chip, so maybe somewhere around C+ would be fine imo.
 
Eh, for the most part, it was no more than clarification I just wanted to be more accurate on my statement, and yes the calc is skewed towards Roserade...

Because it was meant to be, it wasn't to show off the amazing power of Spec Defense roserade, no it was to show of the lackluster RNG that you could feasibly attempt with Spec Defense Roserade. It wasn't particularly an argument for S-Tier, rather a mere including of a point I failed to add in the first post. I would've assumed that my wording would've made that obvious

As for Heliolisk, the points have been noted, and I agree. But to say that florges isn't trapped by anything is a fair statement if I made it 100% clear that I was also referring to it, but I was referring to special walls (Especially that of the psychic variety). I'll take the blame as "My comment could've been worded better"
 
I've been following the thread for a while now but never commented so this will be my first post here.

Having said this I would like to nominate


raikou.gif



I’ve been playing with the Electric Dog and although it suffers with some common grounds like rhyperior and steelix, it can be quite useful in certain teams.
With a base speed of 115 is part of the fastest pokemon of the metagame and only outspeeded by noivern, salazzle and aerodactyl (maybe I forgot someone but those are the main ones) and makes speed tie with zygarde-10% besides being able to boost itself with Calm mind which makes it a latent threat for the end game.
I haven’t proven how it would go Specs because it is possibly its worst set within those that it has but leaving aside the Ghostium, there is one in particular that caught my attention enough.


Raikou @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Aura Sphere

While this set has the disadvantage of sacrificing speed by making the list of mons that outspeed it grow considerably, it makes up for it with the way it can deal with its checks and counters after a calm mind.

+1 252+ SpA Raikou All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 220 SpD Steelix-Mega: 442-520 (124.8 - 146.8%) - guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ SpA Raikou All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 284-336 (78 - 92.3%) - guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ SpA Raikou All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244 Spd Solid Rock Rhyperior: 450-529 (103.9 - 122.1%) - guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ SpA Raikou All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 188 HP / 192+ SpD Snorlax: 372-438 (73.2 - 86.2%) - guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


That combined with good speed support makes the mon a big pain in the ass.
However not everything is good and also has its flaws, and the lack of speed in exchange for aura sphere is one of them, It also needs Diancie to be at considerable damage to be able to kill it with Z making it really hard for the pokemon to shine in its entirety, being slower than pokemon such as virizion, zygarde and ninetales, also still has problems to deal with nidoqueen, bronzong can intoxicate it and seismitoad resists the Z, leaving it with a good amount of HP, so I think B + / A- is a good range for the dog.

By the way, this is the team with which I was using raikou to see how the dog is doing

Raikou @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Aura Sphere

Galvantula @ Focus Sash
Ability: Compound Eyes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Bug Buzz

Nidoqueen @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Taunt

Honchkrow @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch
- Taunt
- Night Slash

Blastoise-Mega @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Aura Sphere
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse

Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Atk / 76 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- Sacred Sword
- Shadow Claw
 
Hey guys, I've got some noms I'd like to propose/discuss:

Goodra rising(Agree)- I can definitely get behind this nomination. While Specs is generally the most effective set, with Band following it, Scarf goodra is a very neat option for teams. Goodra separates itself from other scarfers like gardevoir and tyrantrum with its unique defensive utility that is one of its biggest appeals when considering a scarfer for your team. Goodra's amazing natural special bulk, and typing alongside Sap Sipper allows it to justify use on some teams over other scarfers, while checking and sometimes even switching into many dangerous threats other scarfers cannot, most notably Shaymin and Roserade. Tyrantrum has an incredibly strong secondary STAB and hits much harder, yes, but Goodra's bulk allows it to switch into threats such as Ninetales and Salazzle more consistently, not to mention its mono dragon typing provides it a water and grass resistance, which is very valuable in this meta. Non scarf sets possess a somewhat decent speed tier, outpacing the likes of mega Blastoise, Necrozma, and Feraligatr, but I think Goodra should rise mainly on account of the unique traits its choice scarf set provides over other scarfers.

Machamp rising(Agree)- Flame orb Machamp has always been a neat wallbreaker and contributes to its increased viability, but the increased usage of AV is a larger reason why Machamp should rise in my opinion. AV is a great glue for many teams, being able to check threats such as Mega Blastoise and Nidoqueen, which the flame orb set is not capable of doing, while still providing the good offensive presence and the always annoying knock off Machamp possesses.

Pangoro rising(Agree)- While it doesn't provide the utility Machamp's AV set can, I think Pangoro deserves a raise on account of how well it pressures common cores in the meta, specifically when paired with voltturn mons that tend to draw in mons like Bronzong, Snorlax, and Mandibuzz for it to take advantage of. Banded sets have to play some prediction games vs teams with protect zong and regi, but the immense amount of pressure it places upon teams and the increased longevity thanks to no burn recoil+sets with drain punch separate it from machamp and warrant a rise, not to mention SD sets which do great against fat stuff.

Sigilyph rising(Agree)- As someone who uses Sigilyph quite a bit, I think it does an exceptionally well job of pressuring teams similarly to Machamp and Pangoro. Defog sets are fairly consistent since sigilyph pressures most common rockers, courtesy of its movepool and power, while calm mind sets matchup well against common steel+water cores. Drapion rising in usage hurts it, but when paired with setup mons that can take advantage of drap such as Barbaracle, Sigi can make it think twice before clicking pursuit, especially considering most drap with pursuit are choiced. Sigilyph's capabilities are better represented in B+ Rank as a threat that is very decent, but not splashable enough or good enough to be a top tier threat.

Drapion rising(Agree)- Speaking of Drapion, yes, please raise this! I think drap is in a good position right now given how common mons like rose and zong are and how valuable it is to have something that can reliably pursuit trap and pressure them. While choiced sets are the norm, with SD sets sometimes being used as well, Drapion could definitely use more exploration with its sets/moves as mentioned earlier. Techs like SD+pursuit, tspikes, and dread plate are all great options as well and contribute to its effectiveness as a pursuit trapper.

Arcanine and Bronzong should probably drop- While they're not bad options by any means, I think their viability is better reflected in the upper/mid B rankings. Arcanine has always been a weird mon to use, and while I won't deny the power behind its moves and its good coverage, both sets have their own problem that I think warrant a drop. Banded sets have great raw power but very limited longevity and require an incredible amount of prediction in order to maximize its effectiveness, and morning sun+3 attacks sets really want to cover as much as possible but of course cannot fit all the options and thus Arcanine often finds itself sacrificing crucial moves that would otherwise allow it to dent some of its checks(wild charge for Milotic, close combat for Rhyperior/Tyrantrum, hp ice for Noivern/Gligar). Ninetales acting as a more consistent fire type wallbreaker/having the ability to setup and break fat mons along with Salazzle performing the latter role in combination with the aforementioned individual issues makes it tough to justify use.

Bronzong has been something I believe is ranked a bit too high for its own good. The ground immunity it provides is incredibly useful and allows it to check Nidoqueen which Registeel can't, as well as generally checking Shaymin better, however, the vulnerability to pursuit along with the decreased natural bulk in comparison don't do it any favors when considering a steel type. Mega Steelix also has the ability to pressure hazard removers such as Mega Blastoise and Gligar(courtesy of Curse) much better than Bronzong, which is another nail in Bronzong's effectiveness as a rocker. I think the traits Bronzong provides over its steel type brethren are better represented by a B+ or B ranking.

Other noms I agree with:
Vikavolt ->Higher
Lycanroc-Dusk to B+
Emboar to D Rank
Kingdra Dropping
 
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Mega-Camerupt UR --> C/C-
Camerupt carves itself a niche in the ru metagame as a SpDef wall able to beat all Raikou sets except rain dance + weather ball, Ninetales, Salazzle, Arcanine and Gardevoir. Camerupt is also able to provide the team with stealth rocks which is vital to any good team. Being able to compress all these roles into one mon can be really helpful while building stall or bulky teams in general. However, Camerupt will be easy to wear down so wish support is necessary which limits the rest of the team. Weakness to common water and ground attacks is also annoying as Zygarde and M-Stoise are everywhere right now. Restalk can be run if you already have a rocker which gives Camerupt better longetivity, while Earthquake is run to always Ohko Raikou.
Camerupt-Mega @ Cameruptite
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 12 Atk / 244 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock /Rest
- Earthquake
- Will-O-Wisp / Fire Blast / Sleep Talk
- Toxic

Feraligatr B+ --> B-
Feraligatr does not deserve to be B+ when it is almost entirely outclassed by Barbaracle. It also is much easier to revenge kill as at +1 it gets outsped by many of the moist common scarfers. SD Gatr can also not beat stall anymore as most stall teams carry Pyukumuku as the unaware user instead of Quagsire, which Liquidation could 2hko. The only set I can see being useful is Agility as a sweeper as then Gatr can actually outspeed scarfers such as Shaymin which it can kill after a bit of chip (77.7 - 91.4%).

Snorlax A- --> A
I feel Snorlax should rise as it's AV set has become really good as of late because of Raikou dropping. AV Lax (if thick fat) is able to counter Raikou, Roserade, Ninetales, Shaymin and being able to trap them using pursuit. The CurseLax sets are also pretty good right now as not many teams prepare for them mostly just having a fighting or steel type as the normal check which are easily chipped. CB also has surprise factor as it can ohko many of the mons that people switch into CurseLax such as Virizion and Toxicroak with return (98.7 - 116.4%, 112.3 - 132.4% respectively).

Other Noms,
Minior C --> UR, outclassed by Barbaracle
Torkoal C+ --> C-, has a very minor niche, almost always outclassed by ninetales
Rose to S
 
Ranking Updates:
Code: 
Roserade A+ --> S
Barbaracle A+ --> A
Meloetta A --> A+
Doublade A --> A+
Mandibuzz A- --> B+
Mantine B+ --> A-
Salazzle B+ --> A-
Machamp B- --> A-
Seismitoad B --> A-
Raikou --> Added to A-
Goodra B- --> B+

Reasoning:

Gonna keep this brief since most was discussed itt, and mostly will elaborate on the less obvious changes. Goodra rose due to its ability to check shaymin/roserade and other special attackers like Ninetales for bulky offensive builds. Unlike other Pokemon that can check similar threats, Goodra's great coverage and power makes it difficult to exploit, making it an ideal tank. As everyone knows by now, Meloetta's Z-Celebrate set has become one of the top sweepers in the tier. Its flexibility when utilizing Celebrate or when employing its already good breaker sets has made it difficult to account for, warranting a rise. Seismitoad rose because its ability to defeat gligar as a bulky stealth rock user in addition to checking a unique set of mons in Toxicroak, Raikou, and Arcanine has made it very easy to fit on teams and made its niche more pronounced. Raikou was added to A- because albeit it has the potential to be threatening, its either limited by its poor coverage options or nature-lock that cuts into its important speed tier if it opts for Aura Sphere to function as a breaker. Other sets, while passable, are neither threatening nor provide enough utility to justify a higher rank.

Barbaracle dropped because it's getting harder to fit on teams and the increased usage of common checks like Seismitoad and Doublade doesn't make it as threatening as it used to be. Mandibuzz also struggles to fit on teams as easily as other A rank mons. In addition to increased competition, Mandibuzz does not check enough threats to justify its previous rank.

Discussion Points:

Zygarde A+ --> S
Slowking B+ --> B
Yanmega B+ --> B
Barbaracle A --> A-
 
phantom said:
Zygarde A+ --> S
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zygarde_10__by_reallydarkandwindie-d99mlb6.png

Zygarde is a really good mon in the current metagame, being able to outspeed a large portion of the RU metagame with it's already good speedtier, but being also able to hit really hard naturally with it's really good attack stat.
Zygarde's CB set breaks a lot of walls, and barely anything can really check a CB Thousand Arrows meanwhile Coverage options like Iron Tail and Toxic are good too, able to put Florges on a timer or Florges' teammates to force out an Aromatherapy.
Meanwhile the DD set + Z move is phenomenal due to the nuke the Z-move offers + being able to outrun faster mons like Noivern after the +1.
Due to the fast Speed it offers and breakability at the same time with the CB and also the DD Z nuke set I can see a rise of Zygarde.
Zygarde from A+ to S
 
Zygarde-10% A+ -> S: meh
Yes, Thousand Arrows is dumb. The problem is that Band Zygarde has to take big risks to handle stuff that doesn't care about TArrows. Going for Outrage means it's getting revenge killed for sure, Extreme Speed is easily telegraphed and exploitable, and filler moves suffer the same once revealed. The Dragon Dance set is monstrous on paper, but in practice I find sweeps extremely difficult to facilitate against smartly constructed teams. If foes aren't hitting Zygarde for massive damage, they're statusing it, and there are usually at least two targets Zygarde would much rather use its Z-Move on than anything else. If you manage to sweep, you earned that sweep, and I don't think that's indicative of an S-level threat. Of course, Roserade being in S devalues the rank (I stand by what I said in my last post), so go ahead and slap Zygarde there if you want.

Slowking B+ -> B: sure
Yeah, B+ is probably too generous. Tricky to build a solid team with, seldom proves anything more than an annoyance.

Yanmega B+ -> B: definitely
Yanmega's usually just outclassed. Choice Specs is a wallbreaker, which certainly isn't a role with negligble competition, that saddles your team with a 4x Stealth Rock weakness and a meh Speed tier. It fails to threaten mainstays like Registeel and Florges and safely switches in on very little. If you want a Choice Specs user that can exploit Steel-types with U-turn, use Swellow, which boasts amazing Speed and less Stealth Rock damage. If you want something to rip cores apart, you're probably better off with the likes of Ninetales. Speed Boost Yanmega, however, has decent and unique late-game potential, so the Pokemon shouldn't drop super far.

Barbaracle A -> A-: yes
Barbaracle's a pretty matchup-reliant sweeper. If your opponent fails to account for it, it'll just win, but if they do, it's pretty useless. This volatility should be reflected by a lower rank.

Now for my own:
Swellow B -> B+
I've been using Swellow a lot, and I think it's awesome. Its Speed places it above every other relevant unboosted Pokemon, including such annoyances as Zygarde and Noivern, making it effective Speed control that isn't even hampered in power by Choice Scarf. Its switch-ins are quite limited, and thanks to its U-turn, you can just pair it with stuff that exploits Steel- and Rock-types to negate any obstacle. It can even break through specially frailer Normal-resistant checks on its own if they switch in enough. The opponent's revenge killing options are usually limited to a Choice Scarf user or predictable priority, so getting forced out isn't the end of the world either. Just pair it with priority to deal with Speed boosters, and it's unlikely to let you down.
 
Hello, it's me, the worst person on the VR forums as of right now.

So, after a month or so of my brain insulting itself for pretty every last thing I have said forum, I am back to put my hat into the ring, and to seek whatever paultry forgiveness I can get for the idiotic things I have said.

First things first, I would like to retract my support for Roserade, as it was just me getting caught in a wave of hype, and using arguments that would normally be used to put something in A+ for S. Now, Roserade should definitely be A+, and if you say otherwise, I will find you, and put first edition copies of ancient gear golem in your food.

Now, that out of the way, Zydog. Among the same vein as detracting support for Roserade to s, I shall also not support a raise of Zydog. It's great, and heck, S might be something worthy of describing a lot of pokemon in S tier should people choose to hype it that way. But I feel at least, that the original representation of just Mega-Blastoise really reflected the beautiful balance of RU. Even M-Blastoise is only truthfully S because it's simple and amazing, but it's not a worldbeater, just THAT good and some more. Perhaps since we expect there to be more worldbeater we try to rationalize things as such, but whatever it is, Zydog's arguments for S are just arguments for A+, and for what it's worth, Milotic, Shaymin and several others can be in S as well for how good and central they are, but they just aren't the best of the best, their strengths and weaknesses balance the tier as a whole, to say otherwise is a misrepresentation, so I'm with Cryo on this, you can put it there, but it just doesn't represent S rank fully. (Yay, now I can immortalize Roserade for S hype as one of the dumbest things of my life alongside my entire 7th grade year and playing Psy-Frames)

Barbaracle is good, no doubt, he can win games on his own, no doubt. But you know who else can? Linoone, and look where he's tiered. Now, Linoone isn't an analogy I'll stay on for too as he has a weakness to a lot of the steels that can threaten him. But on that same notion, barbaracle is only usefull in the right situation, and A- better reflects that.

Slowking/Yanmega/Swellow: No comment, I'd have to get around to build teams with 'em on it to give my opinion, but it's something I'm eager to look up and study further.

Also, can I get a quick boo for no Drapion in A-?

That's all for now, and remember, I am a meme man, and I want to die.
 
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Nominating Goodra for A-

Goodra is currently in its finest in the current RU meta. With Roserade and Shaymin being so common, Sap Sipper is an amazing ability, especially for the Band sets, which can KO everything with outrage (except for steels and fairies). Also, thanks to its great movepool and mixed offenses, it's hard to predict what it will do, as it can run Band, Specs and rarely AV and Scarf. Its Sp Def and Dragon typing is amazing, as it is one of the few mons that can safely switch into Ninetales with ease. Speaking of its great movepool, the ability to hit fairies on the switch hard with either Iron Tail or Sludge Wave makes it very hard to switch into, and Steels risk Fire Punch/Fire Blast, so players should always be careful against it. 80 speed is still meh as it risks being outsped by common physical attackers and its Def is not as good as the Sp Def, but its sheer power and versatility make the gooey dragon a force to be reckoned currently, and I think A- rank would show better how it performs currently.
 
My opinion on Roserade = S: Agreed (To an extent)
I think that Roserade is worthy of the S rank due to its solidified offensive presence that allows it to punch through many different pokemon without ANY difficulty. It even punches right through Mega Blastoise and Milotic like nobody's business. The stereotype of "great offenses but low defenses" DOES NOT APPLY to it. Its respectable special defense allows it to sponge up some special hits and prepare to retaliate back with super-effective coverage. Although its physical bulk is not what I wanted, overall, it has decent stats across the board. However, let me just say that its HP and physical defenses aren't good. Pretty much anything that has a powerful physical attack stat or can pack a strong physical hit decimates this thing, and a Grass-Poison typing sounds good on paper, but sadly, Grass is an easily exploitable typing. In fact, Roserade is reliant on Life Orb to do damage, and that thing CHIPS AWAY AT YOUR HP VERY FAST. Pretty much any specially defensive wall can tank this thing and because Roserade's strongest STAB move, Leaf Storm also eats away at your special attack, it just ends up "beating a dead horse". Even those resisted or neutral hits will hurt a lot, even with Roserade's decent special bulk. Overall, let me just say, Roserade should stay in S, but in the next VR update, I think there needs to be an S- rank.
Barabarcle = A-: 100% AGREED AND I WILL NOT SAY ANYTHING ELSE.
The main problem with the collectible pokemon is its... typing. Water/Rock sounds good on paper, until you realize HOW COMMON SHAYMIN AND ROSERADE ARE. Barbaracle HATES Grass-Types, having a QUAD weakness to any grass-type pokemon. And They. Are. Grass. Types. Really, it can be dangerous for unprepared teams, but honestly, more and more and more and more and more teams just prepare for this guy. Really, it is vulnerable to being pressured aggressively from pokemon such as Virizion, Bewear, and Zygarde-10%. Shell Smash somewhat alleviates this, but because it also lowers defense and special defense, what is its greatest strength is also its greatest weakness. Heck, Shell Smash just makes it more vulnerable to being KO'ed while also making it stronger and faster. I think A- sounds representative of it for now.
Yanmega = B: 100% DEFINITELY AND AGAIN, I AM NOT GOING TO SAY ANYTHING ELSE AND THIS IS FINAL. AND I MEAN IT. DON'T TAKE THIS LIGHTLY.
Honestly, its speed is terrible. "YEAH. SPEED BOOST HELPS WITH THIS" is what many of you are going to say. That's right, but considering how bad its defenses are, especially on the special side, honestly, at this point, Speed Boost doesn't even matter. Tinted Lens is useful, but pokemon such as Moltres just decimate this thing. LOOK AT THIS GUY'S DEFENSIVE TYPING. Bug/Flying is just pure bad. A quad weakness to Stealth Rock means that Yanmega will probably die upon switching in (Unless you have Mega Blastoise). Choice Specs can give it better matchups against Steel-Types, but by then, Yanmega will most likely be so badly crippled that they'll just KO it before it has a chance to do anything else.
Slowking = B: No Comment
I'm not exactly sure about this, Slowking in B+ doesn't sound generous to me anyways.
Swellow = B+: STRONGLY DISAGREE
Let me just say I disagree with Swellow rising to B+ and I think it should drop to B- or even C+. Why? LET. ME. EXPLAIN. NOW. Its bulk is even worse than Mega Absol's. 60/60/50 bulk is just terrible. Its really only decent stat is its speed, and even then, its offenses are just depressing to see. Scrappy Boomburst is useful for taking care of those pesky Choice Scarf and Priority users, but there are much better answers to those. It's so reliant on Choice Specs that pretty much any Knock Off user can just go in and literally cripple the life out of Swellow. If you read my explanation about my opinion on Roserade rising to S, the same thing applies here: any specially defensive wall can just tank anything Swellow tries to throw at it and prepare to hit back hard. U-Turn can alleviate this issue to an extent, but there are already a lot of pokemon which can cripple or fatally KO Swellow.
Drapion to A-: Meh
I really don't think Drapion is really THAT good to be deservant in A-. 90 for a physical attack sounds rather passive, don't you think? Without Choice Band or Z-Crystals, it isn't good at being a sweeper or wallbreaker. It does sport a good speed stat, which somewhat alleviates this issue, but you know who else has a good speed stat? Honchkrow, and look where it's ranked. Now, Honchkrow doesn't have a good defensive typing and suffers a lot from its pitful defenses, which Drapion doesn't struggle with, but even then, Honchkrow is simply put, easier to fit on a team than this Ogre Scorpion thingy. While the high power of some of its coverage moves alleviates its passivity, there are a lot of special sweepers/wallbreakers that can take advantage of Drapion's lower special defense.
Sigilyph rising: No comment
Eh, I think Sigilyph is fine where it is, but for now, I'll just say that I could possibly see it rising in the future.
Feraligatr to B-: No comment
Yeah, Barbaracle's typing is worse than Feraligatr, and Barabaracle loathes grass-types more than Feraligatr does. I'll just say that Feraligatr is fine where it is, no need to drop it.
Now time for my own suggestions:
Add Mega Absol to the rankings:
I won't specify on exact rank due to how long this post is, but let me just say this: RUBL=UU. Sounds weird, right? However, let me say this: the upper tiers aren't a place for Mega Absol. Its subpar defenses are just pure bad, and honestly, that damage can rack up very fast. Its great offenses can somewhat alleviate this issue, but it's so glaring and so bad that Mega Absol doesn't do that well in its current tier like it did back in the days of ORAS. Now, I know that performance in an upper tier won't make them added again, but these are just suggestions.
 
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SteelixPrismGX said:
My opinion on Roserade = S: Agreed (To an extent)
I think that Roserade is worthy of the S rank due to its solidified offensive presence that allows it to punch through many different pokemon without ANY difficulty. It even punches right through Mega Blastoise and Milotic like nobody's business. The stereotype of "great offenses but low defenses" DOES NOT APPLY to it. Its respectable special defense allows it to sponge up some special hits and prepare to retaliate back with super-effective coverage. Although its physical bulk is not what I wanted, overall, it has decent stats across the board. However, let me just say that its HP and physical defenses aren't good. Pretty much anything that has a powerful physical attack stat or can pack a strong physical hit decimates this thing, and a Grass-Poison typing sounds good on paper, but sadly, Grass is an easily exploitable typing. In fact, Roserade is reliant on Life Orb to do damage, and that thing CHIPS AWAY AT YOUR HP VERY FAST. Pretty much any specially defensive wall can tank this thing and because Roserade's strongest STAB move, Leaf Storm also eats away at your special attack, it just ends up "beating a dead horse". Even those resisted or neutral hits will hurt a lot, even with Roserade's decent special bulk. Overall, let me just say, Roserade should stay in S, but in the next VR update, I think there needs to be an S- rank.
Barabarcle = A-: 100% AGREED AND I WILL NOT SAY ANYTHING ELSE.
The main problem with the collectible pokemon is its... typing. Water/Rock sounds good on paper, until you realize HOW COMMON SHAYMIN IS. Barbaracle HATES Grass-Types, having a QUAD weakness to any grass-type pokemon. And Shaymin. Is. A. Grass. Type. Really, it can be dangerous for unprepared teams, but honestly, more and more and more and more and more teams just prepare for this guy. A- sounds representative for this guy, but if I could, I'd drop this guy to like, B+ or B.
Yanmega = B: 100% DEFINITELY AND AGAIN, I AM NOT GOING TO SAY ANYTHING ELSE AND THIS IS FINAL. AND I MEAN IT. DON'T TAKE THIS LIGHTLY.
Honestly, its speed is terrible. "YEAH. SPEED BOOST HELPS WITH THIS" is what many of you are going to say. That's right, but considering how bad its defenses are, especially on the special side, honestly, at this point, Speed Boost doesn't even matter. Tinted Lens is useful, but pokemon such as Moltres just decimate this thing. LOOK AT THIS GUY'S DEFENSIVE TYPING. Bug/Flying is just pure bad. A quad weakness to Stealth Rock means that Yanmega will probably die upon switching in (Unless you have Mega Blastoise). Choice Specs can give it better matchups against Steel-Types, but by then, Yanmega will most likely be so badly crippled that they'll just KO it before it has a chance to do anything else.
Slowking = B: No Comment
I'm not exactly sure about this, Slowking in B+ doesn't sound generous to me anyways.
Swellow = B+: STRONGLY DISAGREE
Let me just say I disagree with Swellow rising to B+ and I think it should drop to B- or even C+. Why? LET. ME. EXPLAIN. NOW. Its bulk is even worse than Mega Absol's. 60/60/50 bulk is just terrible. Its really only decent stat is its speed, and even then, its offenses are just depressing to see. Scrappy Boomburst is useful for taking care of those pesky Choice Scarf and Priority users, but there are much better answers to those. It's so reliant on Choice Specs that pretty much any Knock Off user can just go in and literally cripple the life out of Swellow. If you read my explanation about my opinion on Roserade rising to S, the same thing applies here: any specially defensive wall can just tank anything Swellow tries to throw at it and prepare to hit back hard. U-Turn can alleviate this issue to an extent, but there are already a lot of pokemon which can cripple or fatally KO Swellow.
Now time for my own suggestions:
Add Mega Absol to the rankings:
I won't specify on exact rank due to how long this post is, but let me just say this: RUBL=UU. Sounds weird, right? However, let me say this: the upper tiers aren't a place for Mega Absol. Its subpar defenses are just pure bad, and honestly, that damage can rack up very fast. Its great offenses can somewhat alleviate this issue, but it's so glaring and so bad that Mega Absol doesn't do that well in its current tier like it did back in the days of ORAS.
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First of all, Mega Absol is banned from RU so it won't be added until a retest happens. Even so the performance of a mon in an upper tier won't make them added again.
And for the Barbaracle thing:

+2 252 Atk Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 280-331 (82.1 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It only need a little bit of chip damage to KO Shaymin with Jolly nature and isn't outspeed by the scarf set.

+2 252+ Atk Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 309-364 (90.6 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

And Adamant has a good chance to OHKO.
While i don't agree or disagree with the nom, your reasonings are quite weak.
 
Zydog -> S rank or Ban

The tier shifts had happened. All the good checks that once stopped Zydog in its tracks are gone, rise this dogger up! It has tons of things to eat now that Metagross, Stakataka, and Darmanatan are here, also Raikou. It's unbalanced too so you could also consider a Ban as well.
 
Ethereal Balls said:
Zydog -> S rank or Ban

The tier shifts had happened. All the good checks that once stopped Zydog in its tracks are gone, rise this dogger up! It has tons of things to eat now that Metagross, Stakataka, and Darmanatan are here, also Raikou. It's unbalanced too so you could also consider a Ban as well.
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Banning is a whole other procedure in and of itself which is decided on by the tier's higher-ups. Plus, why not give the meta some time to settle first? Observations are never a bad thing, but don't be hasty with ban calls, please.
 
Ummm... no, Zydog honestly got worse with tier drops.
As much as those pokemon were good against him, they were very useful for his checks, and now he doesn't have those options.
And to salt the wound, he is definitely NOT a hard counter against Darmanitan, Metagross, and Stakataka
He checks Darmanitan and Stakataka, and Loses to any Metagross that hasn't been crippled by a teammate.
Metagross can tank most hits from Zygarde due to his decent defense, and Cripple it with Iron Head and finish it with bullet punch, or just kill any crippled Zygarde with a bullet punch.
Choice Scarf Darmanitan, which is the best Darmanitan Set imo, outspeeds band and D-dance needs a boost first, so it pressures it fairly well, as Zygarde can only switch into rock moves without getting 2HKOd.
And while it actually has a really great Stakataka Matchup, if Stakataka can either A. Set up Trick Room, or B. Kill anything and grab a defense boost thousand arrows won't OHKO, and also, D-dance only OHKOs at +1.

All this, not to mention previous thorns in it's side like Mega-Abomasnow, Sneasel, Milotic, Mega Blastoises with Ice Beam, Umbreon, and Golisopod if it can land First Impression.

And although I say it got worse, he's not awful, he's still fantastic, but he definitely does not run amok unchecked.
 
belren said:
Ummm... no, Zydog honestly got worse with tier drops.
As much as those pokemon were good against him, they were very useful for his checks, and now he doesn't have those options.
And to salt the wound, he is definitely NOT a hard counter against Darmanitan, Metagross, and Stakataka
He checks Darmanitan and Stakataka, and Loses to any Metagross that hasn't been crippled by a teammate.
Metagross can tank most hits from Zygarde due to his decent defense, and Cripple it with Iron Head and finish it with bullet punch, or just kill any crippled Zygarde with a bullet punch.
Choice Scarf Darmanitan, which is the best Darmanitan Set imo, outspeeds band and D-dance needs a boost first, so it pressures it fairly well, as Zygarde can only switch into rock moves without getting 2HKOd.
And while it actually has a really great Stakataka Matchup, if Stakataka can either A. Set up Trick Room, or B. Kill anything and grab a defense boost thousand arrows won't OHKO, and also, D-dance only OHKOs at +1.

All this, not to mention previous thorns in it's side like Mega-Abomasnow, Sneasel, Milotic, Mega Blastoises with Ice Beam, Umbreon, and Golisopod if it can land First Impression.

And although I say it got worse, he's not awful, he's still fantastic, but he definitely does not run amok unchecked.
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Darmanitan is banned. I don't see anyone saying paper thin zydoge is a counter to anything. Ethreal Balls was mainly referencing how we have fewer checks/counters to Zydoge. And that Zydoge out right OHKOs these new drops.
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross: 320-380 (106.3 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Metagross does not eat the hit. Also, Metagross runs meteor mash over iron head. Yeah, yeah, I get that a lot of casual players think meteor mash is bad b/c it's 90% accurate but it is a hard htting move that has a decent (20%) chance to raise the attack stage by 1. It's a really good move, don't sleep. Metagross requires shuca berry to eat a thousand arrows anyway.
Zydoge actually did get better with the rises & drops. It's incredibly difficult to handle defensively.
But I do agree with Kyuzeth that we should wait a while before saying stuff in the vr.
 
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