Salamence - The Face of The Next Suspect, or Merely OU's Strongest Dragon?

[Colonel M]

Allow me to give someone here a fair proposition. At the time we are comparing Salamence under the 3 Uber characteristics. Perhaps one should compare Salamence to an Uber Pokemon, like Garchomp, as well as compare Salamence to an OU Pokemon, like Lucario, and see the resemblances / differences that make it OU / Uber.

 

[MrIndigo]

Allow me to give someone here a fair proposition. At the time we are comparing Salamence under the 3 Uber characteristics. Perhaps one should compare Salamence to an Uber Pokemon, like Garchomp, as well as compare Salamence to an OU Pokemon, like Lucario, and see the resemblances / differences that make it OU / Uber.

I made that point already; but to clarify, it's pokemon like Latias and Garchomp that make the best comparisons because they are close to the borderline for OU and Uber, so the differences between Mence and them will necessarily define what it is that makes an Uber, even if it's not a criteria in itself.

The thing that disconcerts me the most about this Salamence discussion is that all it's proponents assume Stealth Rock is on the field; Spinners and Antileads do a good job of removing them, and so it is possible to get Mence in unharmed.

This is part of the reason I think Mence should get a test; it's extremely difficult to see how broken Mence is without, as people have been saying on both sides, comparing 6-on-6. You can't really do that without a proper testing period, I feel.

 

[TSPhoenix]

I think its somewhat obvious why Ray is Uber, he is just stronger. However that doesn't mean its not good to take a step back and have a closer look at why.

For instance Ray's biggest advantage is his blatantly larger special attack making him waaay better going mixed/special. But when you look at the Ubers metagame a lot of things there have beefy SpDef which kinda offsets that. Mence however gets to spam DM in a metagame that, while full of Steels, has considerably lower overall special bulk. Also consider all the Pressure-users in uber.

Defensively the differences matter little, if anything Ray is the most frail by far thanks to the kind of opposition he faces. Similarly Ray and Mence's abilities are fantastic in their respective tiers. Air Lock is fairly useless in OU.

Mence simply has so many advantages for an OU, but I don't think this necessarily makes him uber, as he also has a fair few weaknesses and is eminently revenge-able, but the sheer power of LO Draco Meteor decimating what you though was a fairly solid wall has to make you wonder too.

 

[Stylish Interval]

Allow me to give someone here a fair proposition. At the time we are comparing Salamence under the 3 Uber characteristics. Perhaps one should compare Salamence to an Uber Pokemon, like Garchomp, as well as compare Salamence to an OU Pokemon, like Lucario, and see the resemblances / differences that make it OU / Uber.

All nighters ftw !

Let me kind of address it this way, from my point of view.

Salamence is weak to SR. It is weak to status. It's only stat up move is Dragon Dance. It's best physical stab option is Outrage. It requires elimination/weakening of many threats, and even then if it locks into Outrage it may not survive what is to come.

Garchomp resists SR. It is not weak to status, immune to Twave, and sub + SD beats most status users. It can Swords Dance. It can use Dragon Claw to the same effect, if not better, than Salamence. Because of SD giving it extra power it can afford to drop LO and run other items.

Lucario requires support to sweep, but has SD, bp 80 priority, bp 120 STAB and a coverage move. It is very strong and is capable of sweeping through an entire team with the right support. It is prone to status like Salamence as well.

To expand a bit on Garchomp compared to Salamence, Garchomp is much better than Salamence, especially with an immunity to the bane of DDMence, Thunder Wave. It also is immune to Sandstorm and actually benefits from it, Sand Veil giving it a 20% chance to dodge an attack and attack a Pokemon for free or set up for free. Not only that, it's defenses were 108/95/85. Swampert has 100/90/90 for comparison. Salamences are 95/80/80. Dragonites are 91/95/100. So it was a bulky Pokemon compared to it's comrades. Behind a sub, it didn't even need prediction. It could lash out with a +2 Dragon Claw for plenty of OHKOs and 2HKOs, and that 20% chance to miss was still lingering. Overall it was much, much better than Salamence.

To expand a bit on Salamence compared to [OU Sweeper Here], they are all about the same. Salamence requires support to sweep, just like any other sweeper will. It's prone to status like most sweepers as well. It's defenses are average, meaning it's relying on Intimidate and it's own Offense. Salamence has beautiful Dragon Stab in Outrage and Draco Meteor and has great coverage. The only downside are the side effects of the moves, preventing a great sweep unless other Pokemon are out of the way (support here). It's unfortunate it couldn't be like Infernape and basically get perfect Dual Stab in 120 Base Power moves.

Overall, I find Salamence to be on par with a lot of OU sweepers and not as great as Garchomp was.


Edit: Something for Mr.Indigo: If you make your team set up to prevent SR, you're already providing support for Salamence, meaning it's effort, meaning he isn't sweeping with little effort. Eliminating his biggest foe (Stealth Rock) is support as much as eliminating Scizor is. Also spinning isn't quite as easy as you would think. There are two ghost types in the top 10 (.7 away from 10th spot is essentially top 10 Gengar) and they can stop your spinning.

 

[MetaNite]

I'll assume you're talking about the Dragonite that uses Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Superpower, and Extremespeed. Hate to break it to you, but that set can't even beat Suicune (crocune EV's) one on one (needs SR support, but even then its not guaranteed, assuming EV's on Dragonite that are on-site).

Or you could be smart and use Thunderbolt *hint hint*

One thing PokeN3rd_Pwnz0r forgot to address is that Salamence can effectively utilize Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Intimidate, and Roost (which I haven't seen anybody at all mention). Garchomp cannot use any of the above quite like Salamence. Draco Meteor allows Salamence to break the best walls in the metagame without any set up. Fire Blast gets past its counters, namely Steel-types. Intimidate combined with Roost make the bulky Dragon Dance sets possible. It allows Salamence to counter many extremely dangerous Pokemon, such as Lucario and Heracross.

To expand a bit on Salamence compared to [OU Sweeper Here], they are all about the same. Salamence requires support to sweep, just like any other sweeper will. It's prone to status like most sweepers as well. It's defenses are average, meaning it's relying on Intimidate and it's own Offense. Salamence has beautiful Dragon Stab in Outrage and Draco Meteor and has great coverage. The only downside are the side effects of the moves, preventing a great sweep unless other Pokemon are out of the way (support here). It's unfortunate it couldn't be like Infernape and basically get perfect Dual Stab in 120 Base Power moves.

They are far from the same. Let's compare Salamence to the top sweepers in OU:

• Scizor: is walled very easily by multiple Pokemon, such as Zapdos, Rotom-A, and Gyarados. Although not the best direct counters, Heatran, Infernape, Suicune, Jirachi, etc. can all come in on a resisted attack, outspeed and defeat Scizor. Salamence on the other hand is faster than most of its counters which enables it to 2HKO most of the Pokemon who try to counter it.

• Gyarados: has many near perfect counters, such as Vaporeon and Rotom-A. Suicune with Hidden Power Electric works in the same vein although not as popular. Skarmory, Latias, Roar Cune, Celebi, Shaymin, etc. all counter Gyarados under certain conditions, such as Gyarados lacking Taunt or Gyarados lacking Bounce. Salamence does not have "perfect" counters, Jirachi and Scizor are far from perfect counters, as they can be OHKOed by Fire Blast on the switch. Suicune is 2HKOed by Draco Meteor, as is Swampert.

• Infernape: Latias and Starmie shut Infernape down. Although U-turn can be used to damage this Pokemon and escape, Infernape may then be walled by other Pokemon. For instance, you drop Grass Knot for U-turn and Swampert comes in to wall you. Vaporeon and Suicune all make good counters for most Infernape, although have trouble will lesser seen sets (these sets have their own counters). Salamence is not so easily countered by any Pokemon, and thus does not have to resort to less viable sets to beat its counters. All it needs is a 140 base power STAB attack resisted by only one type, which most other OU sweepers lack. Salamence does not need two 120 base power STABs, only one, for Outrage is only resisted by one type whereas Infernape's are resisted by multiple Pokemon (Outrage + Fire Blast is only resisted by Heatran). On top of that, Salamence has a lot more Attack power than Infernape, and comparing Draco Meteor to Infernape's Overheat, Draco Meteor is resisted by only one type, while Overheat is resisted by many.

• Lucario: Like Salamence, Lucario can use all of the attacking spectrum, but often chooses not to, decreasing your foe's worry and ultimately its versatility. Gliscor, Salamence, Gyarados are all hard counters to Lucario, and to beat them, Lucario must go the extra mile. This would mean say replacing Crunch with Stone Edge. But this means Rotom-A, Celebi, etc. can beat Lucario. Salamence does not have this problem. Not only can MixMence sweep without the need to set up, but being able to hit every Pokemon in the game neutral with just 3 attacks means very few Pokemon can counter it.

As you can see, Salamence does not really have hard counters like most other Pokemon, just "checks." The thing is, does not having counters make Salamence broken? I'd say not, just means your team needs to prepare a little extra for Salamence. I would not say it is outright broken like Garchomp, who is extremely difficult to OHKO and surprisingly easy to get in. Not to mention, friggin' Sand Veil hax. I'd say we should test Salamence. What's the harm in that? Let democracy tell where Salamence should go.

 

[YTP]

All nighters ftw !

Let me kind of address it this way, from my point of view.

Salamence is weak to SR. It is weak to status. It's only stat up move is Dragon Dance. It's best physical stab option is Outrage. It requires elimination/weakening of many threats, and even then if it locks into Outrage it may not survive what is to come.

You only focused on Salamence's weak spots but on the other two sweepers focused on their strong spots. How about Mence's ability to 2HKO/OHKO every wall in OU. How about his ability to boost his speed, how about his higher base attack than garchomp, how about intimidate that allows it to set up, how about his ability to recover and set up more, how about his higher special attack? Mence isn't exactly prone to status either, being able to OHKO almost every user of TWave and he OHKOs Rotom-A after a DD so that takes away the option of "status".

Garchomp resists SR. It is not weak to status, immune to Twave, and sub + SD beats most status users. It can Swords Dance. It can use Dragon Claw to the same effect, if not better, than Salamence. Because of SD giving it extra power it can afford to drop LO and run other items.

Lucario requires support to sweep, but has SD, bp 80 priority, bp 120 STAB and a coverage move. It is very strong and is capable of sweeping through an entire team with the right support. It is prone to status like Salamence as well.

 

[Stylish Interval]

Or you could be smart and use Thunderbolt *hint hint*

One thing PokeN3rd_Pwnz0r forgot to address is that Salamence can effectively utilize Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Intimidate, and Roost (which I haven't seen anybody at all mention). Garchomp cannot use any of the above quite like Salamence. Draco Meteor allows Salamence to break the best walls in the metagame without any set up. Fire Blast gets past its counters, namely Steel-types. Intimidate combined with Roost make the bulky Dragon Dance sets possible. It allows Salamence to counter many extremely dangerous Pokemon, such as Lucario and Heracross.

I need to change my name. I didn't use Garchomp, I just have read a lot about it so everything I say lacks experience. I don't think Garchomp needed to be able to utilize Draco Meteor - it didn't help it sweep. I think it just needed Sub + SD or YacheChomp, I dont' really know if those sets are the same or different but I'm sure they did a lot. It had STAB EQ to deal with Steels besides Skarmory and Bronzong and I don't know what it did for those, Fire Fang maybe? And it really didn't need Intimidate because Salamence and Garchomp both come in and force switches generally so Intimidate isn't working and Garchomp was much bulkier.

But yeah, I have covered the Bulky DD Set I think but I might as well go again. I fail to see the merit of using the bulky Dragon Dance set. I guess I haven't used it enough, though, but it seems to me like it's actually walled by more. Dragon Dance / Roost / Dragon Claw / Earthquake just seems like a severe loss in attacking power compared to Outrage, and a loss in coverage meaning you're walled by Bronzong completely.

Giving up Life Orb, and through that 30% of it's damage output, is prolonging your longetivity from residual damage but you've given up your stronger physical STAB and you're running a weaker one, meaning Salamence is probably missing out on some 2HKOs/OHKOs at this point. I guess you need to Dragon Dance twice? But if that was so, why wouldn't you just run the original who needed one boost? I guess I just don't understand how it's supposed to be run.

Scizor Stuff

Well. Yes. And actually Salamence only has PG2 (sort of) on the DDMence side and nothing counters MixMence (nothing usable anyway *cough*Cresselia*cough*).

Gyarados Stuff

Right again.

Infernape Stuff

Well sweeper Infernape wasn't one I was really comparing with, I just was saying it was blessed with beautiful STAB. Reason I wasn't comparing it is Pursuit can take out the two Pokemon it can't deal with (Latias and Starmie) so it really is about in the same boat as Salamence. Vaporeon isn't really a counter because you can't switch in on Close Combat and go out alive (40.8% - 48.2%, That is a great chance for a 2HKO). Yeah I guess Suicune though.

The reason I compared it to Close Combat and Fire Blast was because Close Combat lowers Infernapes already piss poor defenses (not unlike Salamence's), it doesn't lock it into using the move, and Fire Blast has no ill side effect like Draco Meteor. I wasn't really comparing their power, just that Infernape has that high power STAB with no ill side effects.

Lucario stuff

I've already addressed Lucario. You can run a Scarf Latias to take care of everything but Fire Punch Jirachi. You've still got 4 teammates after that.

MixMence can't sweep without setting up. That is ridiculous. 327/341 (that's assuming Mild, Naive is 327/310) are the attacking stats of MixMence. This is going from 400 attack to 327, an almost 80 point loss in power. Outrage and Earthquake both lose ridiculous power, and Fire Blast is basically ruined after a Draco Meteor (which, as many have said, will be the most common move MixMence uses first), as you do <40% to Bronzong with it after Draco Meteor. Also MixMence has no counters in this metagame, but after using Draco Meteor once, MixMence is going to have trouble sweeping.

It's really a wall breaker, not a sweeper. We can still apply the 25%+6% switch in, 10% on the first attack followed by 6% and you're at 53% left, probable -2 SpA and left with an 80 points weaker choice of Outrage or Earthquake for main sweeping options. You're prone to being revenge killed by anything base 50 (I guess I dunno) or higher with a Scarf, anything faster, including Infernape, Latias, Gengar, and Starmie, as well as Priority still being as threatening as it was for DDMence.

What I was really trying to convey, was that you need to support it so that it can sweep, just like other OU Pokemon. It has a fear of status (especially thunder wave) like other OU Pokemon. Unlike some other sweepers though, like Lucario, Salamence is SR weak and hit by Sandstorm. Did you know that Gyarados and Salamence after a DD achieve the same OKHOs on all but 6 Pokemon? That Tyranitar achieves the same OHKOs but 2 Pokemon? Those are things I was thinking about. DDTar and Lucario resist SR, DDtar is helped by Sandstorm, Lucario gets a priority to help itself against faster foes plus SD which puts it at more power, things like that were going through my mind that make it seem so much more on par with OU sweepers.

you can see, Salamence does not really have hard counters like most other Pokemon, just "checks." The thing is, does not having counters make Salamence broken? I'd say not, just means your team needs to prepare a little extra for Salamence. I would not say it is outright broken like Garchomp, who is extremely difficult to OHKO and surprisingly easy to get in. Not to mention, friggin' Sand Veil hax. I'd say we should test Salamence. What's the harm in that? Let democracy tell where Salamence should go.

I agree it should be tested for that last reason. Let the people decide where to put it, let the better battlers get in with it (as if they haven't for the last year), determine where it should go (OU I would say!) and then we can live with that until it gets another big movepool change or something.

You only focused on Salamence's weak spots but on the other two sweepers focused on their strong spots. How about Mence's ability to 2HKO/OHKO every wall in OU. How about his ability to boost his speed, how about his higher base attack than garchomp, how about intimidate that allows it to set up, how about his ability to recover and set up more, how about his higher special attack? Mence isn't exactly prone to status either, being able to OHKO almost every user of TWave and he OHKOs Rotom-A after a DD so that takes away the option of "status".

I actually am pretty sure I compared the same points to both Salamence and Garchomp, just showing how Garchomp was so much better in that respect.

Now, Salamence can 2HKO/OHKO every wall in OU. So can Dragonite, so can Gengar (minus Blissey), so can Infernape (minus Starmie). I did say he got Dragon Dance. He has higher base attack by a whole 5 base points. 11 points altogether, but Garchomp gets SD. So it gets more attack out of it.

Garchomp Attack after SD with standard Mence DD EVs: 778
Salamence Attack after DD with standard Mence DD EVs: 600

Garchomp has the power Salamence wishes it had. Salamence rarely gets a chance to utilize Intimidate for bulkiness as it is either a weapon to force switches [the common way of utilizing it part] and set up or the opponent is just a Pokemon already forced out by Salamence, but I guess that's something it has. And I still don't know why you would run a Bulky DDSet, still need an explanation for that, as I see a lesser advantage and something Dragonite could do better (outside of Intimidate which only works on the switch in when you are probably forcing something out so it actually doesn't really work).

Saying Mence isn't prone to status because it can OHKO/2HKO every user is stupid. Salamence is not always guaranteed a +1 before facing status users like Celebi, Blissey, or Rotom-A. When was the last time you switched in a Salamence on these guys thinking you could set up. You didn't? And why was that I wonder? Oh, because Salamence would be forced to be statused by Thunder Wave or Will-o-Wisp? Yeah. Garchomp on the other hand had no fear of Thunder Wave. It was immune. You couldn't deal with it like that. Sub could block other status. So Garchomp could really set up on some Pokemon when Salamence can't/couldn't (I don't know what verb thing to use there).

 

[Deucalion2]

Okay, let's turn this on it's head for a minute. Pokenerd, what would you have to see before you could declare something Uber? What would be the minimum number of checks (not counters) something could have before it would be considered Uber? What would the maximum percentage of Pokemon it could sweep in OU with one moveset before it became Uber? Etc, etc. At the moment, you're just saying "You're wrong because you haven't shown it has filled the Offensive Characteristic" where as, to our minds, it most certainly has. We can't really hold a proper argument if we can't see where the other is coming from, it just becomes a farce and whoever posts the most wins.

 

[skorpion123]

I think he perfectly demonstrated how it does not sweep the metagame with little effort and rather requires support to do so as all great OU sweepers. If you could provide evidence on how with little effort it can sweep teams then i would like to see that attempt.

I would like for one to imagine a team with mence and a team without it , and show how the team with Mence would easilly win against the other (with mence sweeping.)

 

[Chou Toshio]

People keep coming back to the destructive power of mixmence (wow people are really scared of this set), and it's ability to kill just about anything with STAB Draco Meteor and Outrage. There is no doubt that Mixmence goes out with a bang, and has the potential to take down just about anything. The thing about it though is, it doesn't really have a choice as to what it's going to take down.

We keep coming back to it, but because of SR and LO, mixmence doesn't have the freedom to keep switching in an out. What does this mean? It means it can't go chasing after it's intended target. It's likely to be able to take down at least 1 poke, but unlike say Wob, it really has no freedom to take down the poke it wants.

Say I have included my mixmence on my team to Draco Meteor and kill the enemy's bulky water. I manage to switch Mixmence in on Vaporeon (who was about to kill my Infernape say). The opponent, realizing my team has a tough time taking down vaporeon, swithes in Tyranitar (who in all honesty, is going to be pretty worthless with my Infernape and Swampert in the wings). Sure Salamence can kill Tyranitar by Draco Meteor and Outrage, but by the time it's switched into Surf, got hit by SR, and taken damage from sand and LO for 2 turns, it's not going to be in good shape. I may have killed Tyranitar, but if I just lost my team's main means of killing Bulky Waters, let's face it-- I'm fucked.

Let's say I've included Mixmence as a Luke check. Yeah well good luck with that. Between SR, LO and Close Combat damage, mence is likely only switching in on luke once, and then again, the opponent could always just throw out some death fodder to take the attack and leave salamence's health in an even more pitiful state. So much for being a Luke Check, you're in range to be killed by a -1 E-Speed now.

A wall breaker is meant to take out 1 enemy pokemon, and while mence has a lot of power, it lacks precision. As a wallbreaker, CB ttar or Magnezone can be counted on to almost always take down their intended targets. I can switch Flygon or Celebi in and out almost indefinitely to check their intended targets again and again, battering the enemy's team with status or U-turn damage. Mixmence let's the opponent choose which pokemon goes down-- and that makes a huge difference in term's of Salamence's ability to control the pace of the game.

This uncertainty plays a problem not only on the offensive side, but on the defensive side too. For instance, if I'm using Latias, I know it has a very good chance of being taken down by a locked Pursuit. In that case, I can count on being able to set up with something like Empoleon or Sub Machamp/Magnezone/etc. Mixmence kills itself, so I have no clue as to what will be the enemy it leaves after it dies. Therefore, Mixmence leaves its teammates to deal with that uncertainty.

Mixmence is certainly a fierce pokemon, but against a smart player, it is far from easy to use, and can often backfire on its user. While pokemon like Gliscor, Tyranitar, Magnezone, Blissey or Rotom can all be almost completely counted on to fulfill their respective roles, this can't be said about mixmence.

I know it'll probably take something down. That's it. I don't really have a lot of control on what it will be taking down. The same could be said about explosion metagross, but at least it gets SR up. The same could be said about ScarfBreloom, but at least it is a relatively sturdy revenge killer who'll be sticking around awhile after.

Mixmence is actually even LESS dependable, because after all, even if I could Fire Blast your Skarmory to hell after it's taken a hit from Draco Meteor, you don't have to stay in and let me. You could always switch to your Scarftar, Flygon or Gyarados to take the fire blast (handing me some more LO damage) and then I really WILL be screwed.

I'm just illustrating the biggest flaw with the Mix-Wallbreaking set. If there were a pokemon who's ability read: "Sack to kill 1 enemy poke, but the opponent gets to choose which one," would you play it? Even considering death fodder/useless pokemon coming into play? Maybe, but you definitely wouldn't call said pokemon Uber. Mixmence is a bit better than that, but not by much.

Now, as for the other sets, let me just say that people should stop talking like Salamence has 252 evs in every stat, is bulky, fast and powerful, and carries Draco Meteor, Outrage, Dragon Dance, Fire Blast, Earthquake, Brick Break and Roost at all times. :/

 

[Stylish Interval]

Okay, let's turn this on it's head for a minute. Pokenerd, what would you have to see before you could declare something Uber? What would be the minimum number of checks (not counters) something could have before it would be considered Uber? What would the maximum percentage of Pokemon it could sweep in OU with one moveset before it became Uber? Etc, etc. At the moment, you're just saying "You're wrong because you haven't shown it has filled the Offensive Characteristic" where as, to our minds, it most certainly has. We can't really hold a proper argument if we can't see where the other is coming from, it just becomes a farce and whoever posts the most wins.

Ugh. What would I have to see? Garchomp. If we're talking about a Dragon I'd like to see something similar to Garchomp. It can have any amount of checks or counters. If it's easy to get in, easy to set up, and you're dedicating certain Pokemon to beating it, it's probably Uber.

And I don't think we've debated/argued in pages. For most of these people, the argument is simply (this was yours too, wasn't it?) that Salamence can OHKO/2KHO a lot of things in the game and that makes it Uber. Unfortunately they either fail to apply Draco Meteor means -2 SpA or they fail to apply that the top 10 in OU can about do the same thing, which is why Gengar and Infernape are two Pokemon you'll see in most of my posts. I can apply most of what everyone has said to Gengar and Infernape.

I already took apart a post dedicated to saying Salamence was Uber because it could OHKO 32 Pokemon in OU with a DD set by posting three lists (thank goodness for the Smogon Calcluator) of DD Pokemon, with two (Dragonite and Tyranitar) achieving the same OHKOs and one falling 6 short. Most of these posts just take a bad experience with Salamence, exaggerate it a bit (as quite a few have done !), and then forget to apply it to the rest of OU and think Salamence is the only one who has that capability. For the most part, I've just extended arguments or shown that a certain way of dealing with it isn't the only way. Again, most of the people here are stuck on since Salamence can 2HKO everything it's unstoppable, but it does that with Draco Meteor, and it can't use the same trick twice, something everyone seems to forget.

So really for me to see a Pokemon as Uber, it doesn't have to be checked and countered, but it can be. It needs to be able to sweep very effectively on it's own. Little effort =/= Team support, which most people seem to think. OHKOs and 2HKOs don't make a difference either, there are plenty of Pokemon who can OHKO or 2HKO. I want to see a Pokemon that has ease coming in and setting up.

For defensive characteristic, I just want to see a Pokemon that walls so much and is so hard to deal with it's insane. Not likely to happen anytime soon.

For support, something that can help the team while holding it's own. It can heal status and set up screens, or set up screens and heal the team, etc. Something that makes it really easy for the team to set up / take care of threats. And it can stick around! This is most important! It must be able to stick around, other wise we would throw Azelf in there for Hyper Offense or something lol. If it can't stick around and support the team consistently throughout the battle it isn't really that great. Something like Salamence doesn't fit this because it isn't supporting by running a Wall Breaking set, it's just wall breaking like it's supposed to.

I guess that's how I kind of see it, if you see a hole or something point it out and I guess I'll address it. I don't really see how this is going to help you at all, but I guess you asked for this so I am giving it to you.

Edit: Chous post is really nice and addresses the misconception of MixMence.

 

[CCM30]

Well, not to barge in on a discussion of people clearing more knowledgeable on the subject than I, but from what I've seen, Salamence still seems to fit the OU criteria because of how often it depends on its team for support.

Even if it's been mentioned before, it's good to reiterate. Salamence needs help with numerous issues, as do other OU counterparts, for it to be beneficial for the user. Granted, Salamence can dish out immense amounts of damage, but a lot of the time it cannot do so without support from a team that is, usually, tailored to meet Salamence's needs.

I just cannot see a Pokemon that needs so much support from the rest of the team becoming Uber when many Ubers can demolish teams without any exterior help.

 

[ToF]

@PokeN3rd_Pwnz0r

I'm gonna address some of your main points (that are wrong by the way) in this post, I don't feel like addressing them all.

First off, you always assume Sandstorm and Stealth Rock are on the field. Roost does exist, and not every Salamence carries four attacks. Not every Salamence user is an idiot that just uses it as a kamakaze Pokemon which is what you make it out to seem. Oh, and just for your kind information, I can spam Fire Blast as well, I don't need to spam Draco Meteors. There goes your Steel 'counter', and Salamence has now has more health than your hypothetical '2 Draco Meteors + SS + LO + SR' damage.

Secondly, in your articulation of how to remove Lucario's counters, Scarf Latias's Draco Meteor doesn't KO Zapdos always, and can fail to KO Gyarados as well. The result is Roosting off the damage (or resting in Gyarados's case). Its not as easy to remove 'counters' to other Pokemon as it is for Salamence via Magnezone. As for your argument against Salamence, about Porygon2 and Swampert coming in, their prior health doesn't even matter. Draco Meteor x2 or Draco Meteor + Outrage beat both anyway, so I don't know where you're going there. Bronzong, lol 2HKO'd by Fire Blast and probably has to explode anyway.

Last I checked, Salamence doesn't 'straight up lose to Scizor' as you put it, because last I checked Salamence uses any fire move and Scizor is dead. I think you're forgetting about Intimidate. Do you even battle or what?

As you talk about Mence, I don't see any difference between Salamence and Rayquaza. You constantly bring up revenge-killing and Scarf users as an easy way to combat Salamence, which applies to Rayquaza as well. After all, Rayquaza's defenses are worse, which means Scizor should be able to Bullet Punch it and shit right? Differentiate your argument please, if Salamence does something like 55% to Scarf Jirachi with Draco Meteor, I'm guessing Rayquaza will do something like 70-75% (estimating, not calcing), what's the difference there? (point here is to let you know that your arguments apply to the Uber tier as much as they do to Salamence, which doesn't make your argument look any better or convincing).

You do realize that many players wanted to test Salamence a while back, but the order of operations was set back then and Jumpman / Aeolus went according to that protocol. You're 'metagame not changing' argument is completely out of place and ridiculous, as if Smogon just randomly decides to test stuff at convenient times. Now that the suspect testing is dwindling down based on the order of operations, we are free to nominate other possible suspects, so we are NOW free to suggest Salamence.

Your speed argument just makes me think you don't play this game or battle. Salamence in today's metagame runs max speed, I don't know where your 288 speed figure came from. Max speed lets it tie other Salamence, tie non-scarf Jirachi, as well as other perceived 'checks'. When Salamence wins the tie against these 'checks', they die to Draco Meteor, Outrage, or Fire Blast. This is why speed is important - Dragonite is too slow to beat all its 'checks' and Salamence has a chance to beat them all.

 

[lati0s]

After all, Rayquaza's defenses are worse,

No they are not, Rayquaza has 105/90/90 defenses while mence has 95/80/80 defenses.

 

[Deucalion2]

Ugh. What would I have to see? Garchomp. If we're talking about a Dragon I'd like to see something similar to Garchomp. It can have any amount of checks or counters. If it's easy to get in, easy to set up, and you're dedicating certain Pokemon to beating it, it's probably Uber.

Salamence is easy to get in, having perfect typing synergy with at least five Pokemon in OU, a total immunity to Earthquake, and the ability to use Immunity to switch in on the majority of physical attacks.

If you are using any variation of Mence other than DDMence, he needs no set up whatsoever, and if you use DDMence it is a single turn.

Porygon2 and Bronzong are used pretty much only because they can stop Salamence. There's very little other reason for them. Porygon2 can stop certain Heatran and Gyarados sets, but with little certainty, and Bronzong is a mostly inferior Skarmory with little advantages except on Trick Room teams. Both of these are dedicated to stopping Salamence.

There, played your own argument against you.

And I don't think we've debated/argued in pages. For most of these people, the argument is simply (this was yours too, wasn't it?) that Salamence can OHKO/2KHO a lot of things in the game and that makes it Uber. Unfortunately they either fail to apply Draco Meteor means -2 SpA or they fail to apply that the top 10 in OU can about do the same thing, which is why Gengar and Infernape are two Pokemon you'll see in most of my posts. I can apply most of what everyone has said to Gengar and Infernape.

Both Infernape and Gengar have far more checks than Salamence does? And not all Salamence use Draco Meteor?

I already took apart a post dedicated to saying Salamence was Uber because it could OHKO 32 Pokemon in OU with a DD set by posting three lists (thank goodness for the Smogon Calcluator) of DD Pokemon, with two (Dragonite and Tyranitar) achieving the same OHKOs and one falling 6 short.

And again, these have many more checks than Salamence does, especially Tyrannitar, because of his low speed. As a a side note, I would consider Dragonite Uber as well if his speed was base 100, but as it is, you don't have to go out of your way to check either of these. In order to check a DDNite, any Scarfed Pokemon with a base speed over 80 and HP Ice will do, pretty much (or Mamoswine or Weavile). In order to check DDMence (not even counter), you need a Scarfed Pokemon with a base speed of over 100 and HP Ice (or Mamoswine or Weavile). This means while 9 Pokemon check Salamence, 27 check Dragonite. BIG difference.

Most of these posts just take a bad experience with Salamence, exaggerate it a bit (as quite a few have done !), and then forget to apply it to the rest of OU and think Salamence is the only one who has that capability. For the most part, I've just extended arguments or shown that a certain way of dealing with it isn't the only way. Again, most of the people here are stuck on since Salamence can 2HKO everything it's unstoppable, but it does that with Draco Meteor, and it can't use the same trick twice, something everyone seems to forget.

It can 2HKO everything with a combination of Fire Blast, Earthquake, and Dragon Claw bar specialised types of Gliscor, Hippowdon, Bronzong, Suicune, and Cresselia, and Dragon Claw has no drawbacks. So, actually, it can do the same trick as much as it wants.

So really for me to see a Pokemon as Uber, it doesn't have to be checked and countered, but it can be. It needs to be able to sweep very effectively on it's own. Little effort =/= Team support, which most people seem to think. OHKOs and 2HKOs don't make a difference either, there are plenty of Pokemon who can OHKO or 2HKO. I want to see a Pokemon that has ease coming in and setting up.

All you need is Bronzong or Metagross or Lucario or Metagross or Jirachi and Salamence has all the ease in the world. SubCM Rachi basically guarantees a free Mence switch, because there's no particularly good physical Fire Attack that gets used often, meaning if you want to kill it before it sweeps itself, you send in something which can Earthquake.

Cue Salamence.


Incidentally, you got ToF'd.

 

[Chou Toshio]

@PokeN3rd_Pwnz0r

I'm gonna address some of your main points (that are wrong by the way) in this post, I don't feel like addressing them all.

First off, you always assume Sandstorm and Stealth Rock are on the field. Roost does exist, and not every Salamence carries four attacks. Not every Salamence user is an idiot that just uses it as a kamakaze Pokemon which is what you make it out to seem. Oh, and just for your kind information, I can spam Fire Blast as well, I don't need to spam Draco Meteors. There goes your Steel 'counter', and Salamence has now has more health than your hypothetical '2 Draco Meteors + SS + LO + SR' damage.

Secondly, in your articulation of how to remove Lucario's counters, Scarf Latias's Draco Meteor doesn't KO Zapdos always, and can fail to KO Gyarados as well. The result is Roosting off the damage (or resting in Gyarados's case). Its not as easy to remove 'counters' to other Pokemon as it is for Salamence via Magnezone. As for your argument against Salamence, about Porygon2 and Swampert coming in, their prior health doesn't even matter. Draco Meteor x2 or Draco Meteor + Outrage beat both anyway, so I don't know where you're going there. Bronzong, lol 2HKO'd by Fire Blast and probably has to explode anyway.

Last I checked, Salamence doesn't 'straight up lose to Scizor' as you put it, because last I checked Salamence uses any fire move and Scizor is dead. I think you're forgetting about Intimidate. Do you even battle or what?

As you talk about Mence, I don't see any difference between Salamence and Rayquaza. You constantly bring up revenge-killing and Scarf users as an easy way to combat Salamence, which applies to Rayquaza as well. After all, Rayquaza's defenses are worse, which means Scizor should be able to Bullet Punch it and shit right? Differentiate your argument please, if Salamence does something like 55% to Scarf Jirachi with Draco Meteor, I'm guessing Rayquaza will do something like 70-75% (estimating, not calcing), what's the difference there? (point here is to let you know that your arguments apply to the Uber tier as much as they do to Salamence, which doesn't make your argument look any better or convincing).

You do realize that many players wanted to test Salamence a while back, but the order of operations was set back then and Jumpman / Aeolus went according to that protocol. You're 'metagame not changing' argument is completely out of place and ridiculous, as if Smogon just randomly decides to test stuff at convenient times. Now that the suspect testing is dwindling down based on the order of operations, we are free to nominate other possible suspects, so we are NOW free to suggest Salamence.

Your speed argument just makes me think you don't play this game or battle. Salamence in today's metagame runs max speed, I don't know where your 288 speed figure came from. Max speed lets it tie other Salamence, tie non-scarf Jirachi, as well as other perceived 'checks'. When Salamence wins the tie against these 'checks', they die to Draco Meteor, Outrage, or Fire Blast. This is why speed is important - Dragonite is too slow to beat all its 'checks' and Salamence has a chance to beat them all.

Considering the destructive power you're describing, the only set you can be talking about is naive/hasty Mixmence. In which case, as I illustrated in my previous post, sure he could take down swampert or porygon, but:

a) That's only if you let him take down that particular pokemon
b) No matter what Salamence takes down, his life will be practically over.

SR + Damage from Switch in + LO damage (Draco Meteor) + LO damage (Outrage) = ~60-70% at best, probably more like 80-90%

So don't sac a pokemon you need-- throw out some death fodder/non-essential, and the enemy will basically have wasted his salamence. Oh and sure Mixmence could roast or smash Metagross with Fire Blast/EQ after Draco Meteor (if you let it), but you could always . . . you know . . . switch into an earth/fire resist and let it take more recoil. Mixmence on the other hand is in no position to switch out and try this again, so you have the advantage on it there.

Naive/Hasty mixmence has a good chance of taking down 1 pokemon. Problem is-- it doesn't really have a choice about what it gets to kill, since the opponent is free to switch while it really isn't. Considering how there will always be death fodder/non-essential pokes around, mixmence faces a serious risk of throwing away its life to achieve very little.

That's a serious weakness compared to pokemon who can hunt down their intended targets (Magnezone/TTar), punish switches (Non SR weak U-Turn/Status users), or even just switch in and out to lol at their intended targets again and again (Bulky Waters, Celebi, Blissey, Glisor).

 

[Stylish Interval]

@Twist of Fate

I will do my best to defend my points. I will put them in Hide Tags, divided up into separate points, as I assume that this post will get rather long.

SR and SS stuff

You say that I always assume that SR and SS are common battle conditions. Prior to that you say my points are wrong, at least ones you're choosing to address, anyway. So let me tell you why I assume this:

Stealth Rock is basically on every lead in the metagame. Every team sets it up and uses it for the purpose it was intended - to try and limit switching and help Pokemon turn 3HKOs into 2HKOs, and 2HKOs into OHKOs. Whether or not you believe that is why they use it doesn't matter, you can't just assume every team doesn't try and use it. If not every team, at least 67% of all teams, which is 2/3 of all teams, a large majority.

Sandstorm is brought into play by the ability Sandstream. This ability is held by Tyranitar and Hippowdon in Standard Play. Tyranitar is the number four used Pokemon in the metagame currently, with usage at 19.39%. It falls 1.56% behind Salamence usage, and if Salamence is common we can assume Tyranitar is just as common. So at this point, we know that Tyranitar is used about as much as Salamence and always brings Sandstorm with it.

We can expand on just how common Tyranitar is. Tyranitar is a common teammate of Salamence. In fact, it is third in the list of teammates for Salamence, with usage at 22.91%. In turn, Salamence is a common teammate of Tyranitar. It is third in the list of teammates for Tyranitar with usage at 24.75%. So you can see the commonly are found together, probably due to the fact that Sand is such a great offensive weapon.

We can even go far enough to see just how commonly it runs with offensive threats today. Tyranitar's top five most common teammates are Scizor (35.57%), Latias (25.40%), Salamence (24.75%), Gliscor (20.80%), and Gyarados (20.58%) with Lucario (20.25%) making a close sixth. You can see from here that Tryanitar is very common with Offensive Pokemon, and it's Sandstream ability will be very common in the metagame. In my opinion, it's common enough to merit considering with any Pokemon.

Roost Rant

You next are telling me that Roost is existent on Salamence sets, and that not all Salamence run a 4 attack set. Not every Salamence user makes it into a Kamekaze Pokemon. Well, I'll first address the viability of use from my perspective. If you bring out Salamence onto another Pokemon and force it out, you have lost 31% that turn. Now it will switch, or else you probably wouldn't have come out on it. You may attack or you may Roost. If you attack, you're playing just like you would a regular MixMence with 4 attacks. Should you Roost, you'll probably be forced out by their switch-in and then they will know you have a Salamence. They are now even more prepared than they were already.

You can also Roost during a sweep. Sweeping Salamence are DD Salamence, Choice Salamence, Bulky DD Salamence, and Mixed Sweeper Salamence. I can only see roost being viable on the Bulky DD Salamence. Mixed Sweeper is already limiting it's coverage, running pure Dragon moves is stupid. Choice Salamence should just be straight up attacking already. There are too many cons to giving up either coverage move in favor of Roost for DD Salamence.

I have yet, though, to see merit of running a Bulky DD Salamence. No one has pointed it out for me yet, even though I have asked many times in this thread. I see Dragonite running one less attack point, getting the same KOs with Earthquake and Outrage, while using Roost to greater effect due to better Bulk. Intimidate does not make Salamence more bulky. Salamence does not use the Intimidate boost to make sure it can sponge physical attacks easier, it uses it as a weapon to force switches. I can see it helping against something like a Scizor locked into Bullet Punch (it must be nice to set up on that eh), but that is about all I can see it helping on, and even then it can switch out then come back in to deal 40%-47%, while your +1 Earthquake is doing the same amount back to it, so it can beat you going in and out.

I don't really see you going in on Tyranitar and attacking either, a Jolly Earthquake only doing ~50%. Dragon Dance Tyranitar (if it DD'd) and Choice Band Tyranitar will both be at 0 modifier after Intimidate and can deal with you through Stone Edge. If Tyranitar was locked into Crunch, you'll be Roosting anyway as it does ~40% with a chance for a defense drop. You'll need to Roost at least twice to be able to safely set up. Gyarados can still KO with both Stone Edge and Ice Fang after SR at a 0 modifier. I don't see the merit of Roost.

Fire Blast < Draco Meteor

You say that you can spam Fire Blast, but I'm not buying it for a second. You have this great move, 140 Base Power, you get STAB on it, and it hits every type in the game but one for neutral or super effective damage and you're going to pass up on it? Let's see what could go wrong with a quick analysis of the top 20 Pokemon. Scizor, Scarf Heatran, Bullet Punch Metagross, Scarf Jirachi, Blissey, or Lucario come in. But if you choose to use Fire Blast, Salamence, Latias, Scarf Heatran, Tyranitar, Gyarados, Swampert, Blissey, Starmie, or Vaporeon can come in. 6 Pokemon vs 9 Pokemon, why wouldn't you go with the safer option.

If Swampert comes in and SS is in play (which is may be, Swampert being 11th most used Teammate for Ttar, and Ttar being 5th most used with Tyranitar) you took SR + SS + LO + SS, then it can protect so you take SS again while it gets leftovers, then it KOs you and you weakened it by about 64% only, meaning it is still pretty usable and you've wasted your Wall Breaker. There is almost no reason to use Fire Blast unless you're predicting a steel switch in, which may or may not happen, depending on how much you knew about your opponents team, and I doubt you would just predict blindly. It might cost you your Salamence.

Stuff about Lucario and Salamence and checks/counters

For furture reference, when comparing Lucario and Salamence I am comparing Sweeper Salamence aka DDMence. Scarf Latias is just one Pokemon. One Pokemon only. You still have 4 others to use, and Scarf Latias can still take care of most of those threats. Not to mention, that was only with one move. With the sand that we've been mentioning (Tyranitar is a common Pokemon to be seen with Lucario and Latias afte rall), Zapdos is pretty much taken care of. Gyarados runs Rest 9.2% of the time, barely worth considering. So it isn't really healing. Bulky Gyarados, much more common than RestTalk Gyarados, can be OHKOd with SR and SS in play (and Gyarados was number 5 with Tyranitar, was it?). Scarf Latias can essentially deal with the Pokemon threatening Lucario. That was just running one Pokemon, I'd say it was pretty easy.

Now at this point, I think you're really beginning to confuse which Salamence we are talking about. When I talk about sweeper Salamence (which I was when comparing), I'm talking about DD Salamence. You seem to assume that MixMence can sweep, which is such an incorrect assumption it isn't funny. After a Draco Meteor you've limited yourself to using only Physical Attacks to good effect, not to mention that you aren't boosting them anymore. Mix Salamence is already switching into an attack, then SR, then SS, then LO damage all rack up to basically put it out of commission. For a detailed explanation of how Mix Salamence operates when attempting to sweep, see this post.

Now back onto the track of DD Salamence, it very much does matter about the HP of certain Pokemon like Swampert, Vaporeon, Suicune, Porygon2, Hippowdon, etc. These Pokemon can all survive a boosted Outrage if they have enough HP and KO. Not only can they survive, you're forced to Outrage if their HP isn't low enough (50% for Vaporeon). This can set you up for defeat, as luring into Outrage is another common way to beat Salamence.

Now about Bronzong, it either comes in on your DD and finishes you off with Gyro Ball, or you have to predict a switch in and beat it. There is still the chance that Fire Blast may miss and you won't beat it, even. If you mispredict it might cost you your sweep. This is why Bronzong is a real threat to DDMence. Sure you can 2HKO with Fire Blast, but you have to either make sure it's HP is low enough or predict the switch in. You surely cannot beat it if you're locked into Outrage, though, which you may be forced to do because of another Pokemon.

Scizor Stuff

Now, I'm going to run through some situations with Scizor and Salamence. You tell me how well Salamence can beat Scizor.

Salamence switches in.
Salamence DDs while opponent switches to Scizor.
Scizor uses Bullet Punch.

Salamence uses Draco Meteor on the switch in.
Scizor switches in and uses Bullet Punch

Scizor comes in and revenge kills Scizor.

Salamence predicts the switch in and uses Fire Blast to KO Scizor
(85% of the time)

In those situations, Scizor usually has the upper hand. If you want to go back to predicting switch ins, I went over that earlier in the post and you still only have an 85% chance of hitting. Intimidate does not work on Scizor unless you switch in. If you switch in on Choice Band Scizor using Bullet Punch you will take 39.3% - 46.5%, which wil be a 2HKO every time. Meaning you have to come in after it kills something, in which case it is no different from coming in on any other Pokemon in which you force them out with Intimidate. Salamence almost never plays up it Defense with Intimidate. And for your own personal reference or opinion of me, I don't play Pokemon that often.

Salamence vs Rayquaza stuff

You're right. I have been bringing up a lot of revenge killing and priority using situations. But I guess that's just the way I see it, that a lot of the top 10 Pokemon use those moves and if they always have them, why not use them, especially when it can deal with Salamence. Here are reasons why I see Rayquaza different from Salamence.

• Rayquaza has Air Lock, meaning it isn't taking damage from Sandstorm or Hail. No 6% lost each turn.
• Rayquaza has superior defenses at 105/90/90
• Rayquaza can drop Life Orb and hit just a bit softer than Salamence. Against 0/252 Blissey, Rayquaza without Life Orb does 66.4% - 78%Salamence with Life Orb does 78-92%.
• Rayquaza can use SD and Extremespeed to deal with a lot of Salamence's checks. In fact Deucalion lists Aero, Gengar, Celebi, Flygon, Latias, and Salamence. Rayquaza, after a SD, falls 10% short of a KO on Aero, KOs Flygon, Latias, and Salamence.So really just 2 there. Rayquaza can even do 52%-62% to Scizor with Espeed (factoring SR).
• I assume by now you're looking for something more along the lines of "How is Rayquaza not dealt with by priority and scarfers? Scarf Jirachi, Scarf Heatran, Scizor and Lucario I guess. Scarf Jirachi loses 45%-50% to Extremespeed + SR, meaning if it's low enough on HP (which it may be since it's run as a lead so much) it can be KOd. Scizor, as I said, loses a bit more than that at 52%-62% + SR. Scarf Heatran is in the same boat as Scizor. Lucario loses 72%-78%, so by late game, Rayquaza can basically deal with all of these threats with nothing eliminating them from the game.
• Another thing here, Rayquaza is going to have ridiculous attack, so it won't miss out on KOs that Salamence might. Swampert, suicune, Hippowdon, PG2, etc. over 65% will not be a problem for Rayquaza.

That's about all I have to say on that, I'm sure someone of your calibur can find something wrong with it though and force me/help me to fix it up !

Testing Stuff

I was unaware of an order of operations, but even with that in place, if Salamence is so game changing and require us to run certain Pokemon to deal with it, wouldn't Jumpman or Aeolus realized that it was probably interfering with the current tests going on? If Pokemon were forced to run certain sets to deal with one Pokemon or a team was forced to run certain Pokemon to deal with one Pokemon, that would mean there were severe limitations on Pokemon and flexibility of a team. If Salamence were tested first and removed, some suspects might not have been suspects anymore, right? So why is it that Salamence is the same threat it has been but it wasn't quite as threatening back then? And why is Salamence so Uber but Dragonite isn't? With the ability to almost mimic Salamence's offensive Power, why aren't we considering Dragonite at the same time?

Dragonite vs Mence stuff

And finally, you're correct that I forgot to use a Naive Nautre. But even then, Dragonite is still forcing switches and hitting just as hard as Salamence is. It can use it's strong moves, bulk and stats to hit just as hard as Salamence, speed is almost irrelevant. If Dragonite kills one Pokemon and then Jirachi comes in to revenge kill it, it did the job of wall breaking. So what if Salamence ties with Jirachi and other Salamence? Are you going to be sweeping or something? You're just hitting Pokemon, and Dragonite does it as well as Salamence, if not better, especially with the ability to OHKO Blissey and Heatran.

@Deucalion2

First part

Salamence is easy to get in, having perfect typing synergy with at least five Pokemon in OU, a total immunity to Earthquake, and the ability to use Immunity to switch in on the majority of physical attacks.

If you are using any variation of Mence other than DDMence, he needs no set up whatsoever, and if you use DDMence it is a single turn.

Porygon2 and Bronzong are used pretty much only because they can stop Salamence. There's very little other reason for them. Porygon2 can stop certain Heatran and Gyarados sets, but with little certainty, and Bronzong is a mostly inferior Skarmory with little advantages except on Trick Room teams. Both of these are dedicated to stopping Salamence.

There, played your own argument against you.

Salamence is easy to get in? On what? It's not switching in on Scizor, Salamence, Latias, Tyranitar, Heatran, or Gyarados. Those are only Offensive Pokemon and in the Top 10 alone. I doubt you'll switch in on Swampert, Rotom-H, Blissey, Vaporeon, Magnezone, Celebi, Suicune, or Zapdos.

Now mostly Garchomp is in the same boat against the offensive Pokemon. Against Defensive, though, Garchomp could come in on Rotom-H, Blissey (immune to thunder wave), Vaporeon, Magnezone, Celebi, and Zapdos it could come in on if it lacked HP Ice. Salamence has trouble there.

Now, type synergy, really? Lucario and Latias have type synergy, but I'm not sending them to Uber for it. Heatran and Celebi have type synergy, but I'm trying to ban the defensive combo.

And no set up for non DDMence? That's because MixMence is a wall breaker, not a sweeper. It doesn't sweep, therefore needs no turns to set up for a sweep. It just breaks walls. Now I'll question whether you play the game lol. Porygon2 doesn't stop Heatran and Gyarados for sure? Are you crazy? Scarf Heatran, the most common Heatran in the game, does 32% max to Porygon2. It can easily Thunder Wave and ruin you, or damage you with discharge/thunderbolt. Same can be said for Gyarados. It either gets -1 modifier or after a Dragon Dance has a 0 modifier. Waterfall at a 0 modifier does 30% max. Porygon2 can beat them, it just can't beat them all at once.

Also Bronzong isn't an inferior Skarmory :/ They do different things. That's like saying Forry is an inferior Scizor or something stupid like that. Bronzong screens, sets up SR, and sleeps. Skarmory spikes. They are different Pokemon. What fucking argument did you play against me.

Gengar and Infernape

Both Infernape and Gengar have far more checks than Salamence does? And not all Salamence use Draco Meteor?

Now Infernape, as I have said and ToF has recognized I do believe, cannot 2HKO two Pokemon, Latias and Starmie. It then loses to all scarfers at base 110 or higher. It actually can 2HKO Latias by the way, it just isn't fast enough to. Now for Gengar, it is only stopped by Blissey and can 2HKO everything but Blissey with one set. And again, you're arguing for nothing. Not all Salamence run Draco Meteor, means all Salamence need one turn of set up to 2HKO all those things, means all Salamence will have a check/counter switch in before they have the power to 2HKO everything. Also I don't understand how MixMence at base 100 speed can have less checks than Infernape at base 108 :/

Why can you contradict yourself so much I don't get it

And again, these have many more checks than Salamence does, especially Tyrannitar, because of his low speed. As a a side note, I would consider Dragonite Uber as well if his speed was base 100, but as it is, you don't have to go out of your way to check either of these. In order to check a DDNite, any Scarfed Pokemon with a base speed over 80 and HP Ice will do, pretty much (or Mamoswine or Weavile). In order to check DDMence (not even counter), you need a Scarfed Pokemon with a base speed of over 100 and HP Ice (or Mamoswine or Weavile). This means while 9 Pokemon check Salamence, 27 check Dragonite. BIG difference.

Now I'm tired of even talking with you. It's like you ignore every post in this damned thread and come back to haunt me with points I already covered. HOW DOES A POKEMON HAVE MORE CHECKS THAN SALAMENCE IF THEY ARE ALL +1. Scizor? It beats them both. Mach Punch might beat it, but it's the most uncommon. Tyranitar resists Espeed. How does Tyranitar have more checks because it is slower? I don't get it. It's got the edge on base 115s, so I don't get it.

Now why is it that when I say you can scarf a Pokemon to beat Salamence, it isn't okay. But when you say scarf a Pokemon to beat Dragonite and give it HP Ice, it is suddenly okay? And how can you continually say every Pokemon above a certain speed does it. Why the fuck are you scarfing a Gliscor? It can't do anything at that point. Why the fuck are you scarfing a Celebi? It doesn't do what it does best at that point. Why are you scarfing Gyarados, Suicune, Cressy, Kingdra, Luke, Zapdos, or Tentacruel? Why are you scarfing all of these Pokemon to beat Dragonite? If it is over centralization to do so for Mence, it is for Dragonite, right?

Seriously, Crocune isn't an overspecialized Suicune

It can 2HKO everything with a combination of Fire Blast, Earthquake, and Dragon Claw bar specialised types of Gliscor, Hippowdon, Bronzong, Suicune, and Cresselia, and Dragon Claw has no drawbacks. So, actually, it can do the same trick as much as it wants.

Now you say it can 2HKO everything with Dragon Claw, Fire Blast, and Earthquake? Well Gengar is still 2HKOing everything as well as Infernape. But lets move on. You're 2HKOing Swampert? 54.2% - 63.9% is a +1 Dclaw vs MixPert. 46% - 54.2% vs Crocune. 62.5% - 73.9% vs Vaporeon. 46.4% - 54.5% vs Hippowdon. What does it matter if they can just heal off the damage you do or eliminate you. If they switch in on your DD they can attack you and eliminate you. If running the set you want to say is viable was viable, why wouldn't we all do it since it wouldn't have the draw backs of Outrage and still get the same 2HKOs? I dont' get it.

You finally go "If your run a steel type with Salamence you can sweep". YOU'RE WRONG. Just because a Pokemon has type synergy doesn't mean it helps it sweep. How does Jirachi help it sweep? Infernape can beat them both. How does Metagross help it sweep if Infernape can beat them both? I don't get it. Also what is ToF'd?

 

[Chou Toshio]

^Explanding on the whole TTar + Salamence point, Mixmence (who Twist of Fate seems to keep coming back to) really can't do its job without sand. A lot of the pokes who "are put away" by some combination of his attacks, suddenly aren't put away if they are getting leftovers. Essentially, Mixmence really can't afford to have its victims recovering off the precious damage it is trading its life for. Also, sand removes some of the risk of locking into outrage, giving you a better chance to kill yourself before the enemy can set set up on outrage or outrage can end. Mixmence really wants TTar to precede it on the battlefield.

. . . which is why assuming sand damage is also quite fair. Mixmence doesn't have too much choice about that.


Also-- My mence has 252 evs in every stat, is +Speed, +ATk, + Sp.ATK, +DEF, is carrying LO (with no recoil), Leftovers, Lum Berry, Specs + Band (without being locked), and has the attacks DD, Roost, Draco Meteor, Outrage, Earthquake and Fire Blast. Did I mention it will win every speed tie? Man, no wonder people are complaining [/sarcasm]

 

[ToF]

I still do not understand how you guys can blatantly say that Mixmence cannot sweep by itself. Mixmence is the ONLY Pokemon that is capable of single-handedly beating stall teams (older variants anyway, not this new semi-stall bullshit). Even Lucario can't claim that, considering the combination of Rotom and Gyarados always could stop it regardless of whether it's carrying Crunch or Stone Edge.

As for your offensive team arguments, well nothing on an offensive team can switch into Salamence. And in all those hypothetical Scizor - Salamence situations you created, all versions of Salamence have a higher chance of beating Scizor than Scizor does of beating Salamence, even with Stealth Rock. I don't understand why you cannot grasp this. Bullet Punch does anywhere between 67-77%, which means more often than not, Salamence wins either way. Salamence is never switching into Scizor, whereas Scizor often switches into Salamence.

Finally, at ChouToshio, name me one Pokemon Salamence's Mixmence set cannot 2HKO other than Cresselia and possibly Suicune. Salamence needing Sandstorm is just a lol point that you're trying to interject in order to make it seem that it's vital for its sweeping capabilities. Every Pokemon Salamence can 2HKO in Sand is also 2HKO'd out of sand (other than the two mentioned).

Edit: As a last point, you guys are so heavily involved in usage statistics and junk that your actual battling knowledge sounds ignorant and is quite frankly often wrong (as shown by saying that Infernape can 2HKO everything but Starmie in a previous post, which is obviouly wrong and inaccurate). Try using some battling examples and expertise on top of usage statistics and you may get me to stop criticizing your points. Statistics are obviously important but aren't even close to experience Salamence in action, aka what should matter more.

 

[Stylish Interval]

I will tell you why MixMence cannot sweep. It doesn't have the power to sweep. Taking two hits to beat down one Pokemon is ridiculous, and it can't just come in and out to continually use Draco Meteor. It suffers too much. Perhaps with Dragon Pulse it can sweep, but that's all I can see.

Also, if Salamence and Scizor both die to each other, then a fair exchange was made, wouldn't you say? But with SS and SR, 31% is taken and Scizor will win more often than not, unless you're predicting the switch which is indeed risky. Latias can switch in on EQ or Fire Blast can't it? Heatran can come in on Outrage and Fire Blast can't it? Offensive Pokemon can switch in, you just have to know when to switch in.

Infernape can actually 2HKO everything with perfect prediction just as it was assumed Salamence can. If Salamence uses Fire Blast it won't 2HKOs Swampert, as Fire Blast + Draco Meteor isn't a 2HKO. It takes perfect prediction on paper and in theory to 2HKO everything. Infernape can 2HKO everything but Starmie and Laitas (due to not outspeeding it) with perfect prediction.

What kind of examples would you like to see used? Just curious, of course, as to what you're asking for? I don't quite understand what you mean by showing battling examples.

Edit: Are you saying battling experience with Salamence backed up with stats or theorymon examples or what =s

 

[gyenen]

specially defensive zapdos, takes 87-102 from two consecutive draco meteor's from mixmence, sandstorm needed for kill, and barely a 2HKO.

vaporeon takes 99-114, meaning if its running protect then draco won't 2HKO.

Flinch togekiss takes 75-80 from two consecutive draco's, proving itself as suprisingly defensive, much moreso than i thought.

i'd keep searching but i'm lazy. suffice it to say, neither of these are 2HKO without sandstorm and while locking yourself into outrage is of course an option, you are then locked into outrage and we all know how that ends.

 

[iShedinja]

I decline. Lets see a scenerio of Salamence's Classic mixmence set vs your Standard Stall team:

Hippowdon, Rotom-h, Forretress, Blissey, Gyarados, Celebi.

These calculations are made assuming that sleath rocks aren't present.

Hippowdon's physical wall set: It takes a whopping 80.7% - 95% of damage from draco meteor. This is a possible ohko.

Rotom-h's Standard defensive set: It takes 82.9% - 97.7% from draco meteor. I believe this is a OHKO if stealth rocks are up, and sandstorm

Forretress (all sets): OHKOed by fire blast unless occa berry is present.

Blissey's Wish bliss set: These guys are tricky, a brick break does 59% - 69.4% to it. This is a clean 2hko. Though, mence may have to switch out as blissey may carry ice beam. It can also stall mence out with wish and protect.

Celebi's Standard defensive set: This guy takes a whopping 82.2% - 97% from a fire blast. You have a pretty good chance to OHKO it if rocks are up, and sandstorm. Celebi really can't do anything to mence anyways except thunder wave it.

Gyarados's rest talk set: This guy takes 73.1% - 86.3% from a draco meteor. I believe this is an OHKO after rocks.



By looking at these calculations, Salamence can clearly wreck stall as everything listed is either OHKOed or 2HKOed.

 

[Stylish Interval]

I love how Salamence can manage to keep using a full power Draco Meteor as well as full power Fire Blast as if the -2/-4 never happened.

 

[gyenen]

all you've proved is that a wallbreaker pokemon is great at wallbreaking. You can only draco one of those poke's before the next one can swap in and essentially take a pittance from the attack. and yes sala could switch out, but your giving something such as gyarados a chance to setup

 

[zarator]

I love how Salamence can manage to keep using a full power Draco Meteor as well as full power Fire Blast as if the -2/-4 never happened.

The Salamence iShedinja is talking about is the Classic Mixmence, and it commonly carries Roost. Not only that, Pokémon like Hippowdon or Skarmory often offer Salamence free turns to Roost. So yes, Salamence is totally capable of launch all those full power Draco Meteors, and unless you predict perfectly, you are bound to lose 1 or even 2 Pokémon to him. And I am even saying just 1 or 2 because I factor in Blissey, otherwise is GG already.