Salamence - The Face of The Next Suspect, or Merely OU's Strongest Dragon?

[Critical_Hax]

Why are we discussing Garchomp? Garchomp is irrelevant to this discussion. Garchomp was a Threat because it had the bulk to make use of an item that would stop it from dying to a normally fatal Ice attack. The issue with salamence is that you'll either eat a powerful attack straight to the face, or it will set up and unlike Garchomp, gain a speed boost making revenge killing it harder since most scarfers won't cut it.

When I deal with Salamence, assuming I can't tell which Mence it is, I'll play conservatively. If DD Mence is more dangerous based on what I have left, I'll preserve my DD Mence check. If Mixmence is more of a problem, assume the worst and keep my options of killing it open.

Granted, if Salamence is played properly, assuming an offensive set, it should get 1 kill minimum per game. However, this kill, unlike Explosion, doesn't also stop Salamence from sweeping to get it.

Salamence's partnership with Magnezone does make it more of a problem. However, generally when you see multiple dragons, its safe to assume there is a Magnezone somewhere around. Most players won't sacrifice a Dragon just so they can be assured Scizor will be locked into Bullet Punch. They'll go directly to Magnezone if a Bullet Punch is obvious. However, you can Superpower at this time and Mence isn't so scary. Worst Case Scenario, you'll eat a Flamethrower Since Mence will die unless they switch. If your wrong, you'll probably lose something else, but thats the player's prerogative.

My earlier point about the lack of Ice Shard users in the metagame wasn't to show Salamence could be checked by them, that was obvious. I'm also well aware most are unviable or suffer from generally superior competition for thier slots. My point was to show Salamence isn't that broken because it isn't overcentralising like Garchomp. If everyone were so scared that they would be swept by Salamence because it was unstoppable, because of its mixed attacking stats, bulk, Magnezone, or whatever reason, I'd expect to see Mamoswine usage rise, maybe even to the top 10 to deal with Mence Specifically. However, Salamence is not at this crisis point where it has encouraged a drastic use in its most reliable check, so it can't possibly be that broken.

 

[Aura Guardian]

If you can prove that without using the words, (mis)prediction, (mis)predicting, (mis)predict or (mis)predicted, then I'll back off.

It switches into SR, Scizor switches in on a non-lethal attack or a DD, Scizor CB Bullet Punches.
Mence is forced to attack (I.E. Heatran), but not with Dragon, or be KOed. Scarf Flygon comes in. Heatran would stop a Fire attack, too. Since prediction is not allowed, I guess we can ignore the chance of the Salamence using Draco Meteor to take a switch in
EDIT: Oh, and Sandstorm or Hail. That's common enough. Life Orb Recoil also may play a role, it is common enough.

If Salamence would prove to be suspect (or if one would argue this) based on it's pairing with Magnezone as a partner in crime, then it would be the combination of Salamence and Magnezone that would be put under suspicision, not Salamence alone. Unless one could prove that either Salamence or Magnezone themselves were suspect without the assistance of the other of course, in which case this entire point you've made is meaningless in this discussion.

Are you suggesting an EX or Overpowered list where you can take up to one member of, but not any more in OU?

 

[RaikouLover]

Granted, if Salamence is played properly, assuming an offensive set, it should get 1 kill minimum per game. However, this kill, unlike Explosion, doesn't also stop Salamence from sweeping to get it.

I don't mean to single you out, but I've been seeing this 1 kill per game statement for the last few pages and I find the logic to be an absolute pile of shit to put it bluntly. You can say that for ANY offensive pokemon in the game. "If Pokemon X is played properly, assuming an offensive set, it should get 1 kill minimum per game." I don't know of a single OU offensive pokemon that doesn't fit that criteria....

Originally Posted by Oxymentus
Mence is always guaranteed a KO on just about any bulky Pokemon. I don't see why that alone doesn't make it a suspect =/

Salamence can only OHKO freaking Blissey with a Choice Band if they enter the field at the same time while she is free to T-Wave to cripple him and Ice Beam. Cresselia can stand up to any Mence set and do the same. Suicune and Swampert can survive +1 Outrage, or Draco Meteor and KO with Ice Beam. Celebi can do the same but cripple with T-Wave. Hippowdon isn't KOed at full health by Draco Meteor and can stall with Slack Off. It can survive a +1 Outrage and Ice Fang or Roar. I don't see how Salamence is guarenteed a KO on any bulky pokemon at all? Salamence's main power comes from its ability to come in and force switches with the threat of its potential movesets. None of the threats I listed can reliably SWITCH in to Salamence, but are checks in their own right. If Salamence enters the field at the same time as one of these walls it WILL lose or be crippled. Therefore, it is alot like any other pokemon in the fact that it has to choose its point of entry to get the most out of its use, and this is particularly important with him being Stealth Rock weak :(.

Originally Posted by Oxymentus
Wobbufett didn't trap things and Tickle them into submission without another Pokemon. Garchomp wasn't a stand-alone sweeper. Shaymin-S never went into battle without any type of support. Why is Salamence excluded from having a partner?

Ummm, this is just so wrong. I'm guessing you haven't used those three Suspects. Wobbufett needed no support at all to ensure that it could revenge kill any Choice locked pokemon, or Ticklefuck a wall, or just have them struggle with Encore and set there and do nothing or Mirror Coat / Counter them.... Garchomp ABSOLUTELY was a stand-alone sweeper because one set.. Swords Dance / Dragon Claw / Earthquake / Fire Fang KOed 2HKOed at minimum all of OU. Shaymin-S certainly came into battle without support... to what support were you referring to exactly here? Please learn what you are talking about before making comparisions with other suspects.

Originally Posted Oxymentus
I don't see how "a Pokemon with a move that can beat Salamence" qualifies as a check.

......... Will someone please take this for me?

Weavile with Ice Shard is a check.
Scizor with Bullet Punch is a check.
Latias is a check to non-DDMence
Scarfed Latias is a check to all Mences.
Scarfed Jirachi is a check.
Scarfed Flygon is a check.
Specs Jolteon is a check to non-DDMence.
Aerodactyl is a cehck to non-DDMence.
Porygon-2 is a check to DDMence.

I could go on and on but I'm hoping you get the trend here. A check is a pokemon that will threaten the opponent at the time of entry. Salamence has plenty of checks once the given set is discovered. Admittedly, that is Salamence's greatest advantage over other pokemon in OU. However, once the set is determined, there are plenty of appropriate checks. For Mixmence, any pokemon with greater than 100 base speed and a super effective or boosted attack is a check. Scizor with its amazingly powerful bullet punch is a check. For DDMence, fast scarfers are checks, as are Steel Types once Mence is baited into Outrage. If the set has Dragon Claw instead of Outrage, it loses 50% of its power, so bulkier walls become checks. What about this is so hard to understand?

 

[Objection]

I don't mean to single you out, but I've been seeing this 1 kill per game statement for the last few pages and I find the logic to be an absolute pile of shit to put it bluntly. You can say that for ANY offensive pokemon in the game. "If Pokemon X is played properly, assuming an offensive set, it should get 1 kill minimum per game." I don't know of a single OU offensive pokemon that doesn't fit that criteria....

Furthermore, there seems to be the idea that if Salamence kills 1 pokemon, then it does its job. The problem is, it doesn't necessarily kill the pokemon it switches in against. What if instead of Salamence killing the Rotom-H that's currently out, the Rotom-H is switched out for a Bronzong that's down to 11% (5% when it comes in, assuming SR is up)? Sure, Salamence might get a DD up (or it might not if it doesn't have DD) and kill the Bronzong, but it's not like Bronzong was going to be any good in that state. In this way, the Rotom-H/Bronzong player sacrifices something worthless to find out what kind of set Salamence is running and, if Salamence switches out, the player can act accordingly to prevent Salamence from wreaking havoc the next time it comes in. Salamence killed a pokemon that was death fodder and no longer vital to the team's success. That doesn't sound to me like it's done its job.

Unless Salamence is played early game, odds are there will be at least one piece of death fodder on both teams, so the scenario above is not unlikely.

 

[Aura Guardian]

EDIT: it seems I was beaten to the post by Objection.

...
Scarf Jolteon is a check to DD Mencef
Ice Fang/Avalanche Gyrados laughs at non-DM Mence
Gravity (uncommon) + Toxic Spikes and/or Spikes checks Salamence
Trick Room (uncommon) + Ice laughs at Mence.
SR plus any threat (Scizor, I'm looking at you) is a near-counter

If the other arguments for Mence as Uber are like that (and RaikouLover showed they were quite flimsy), I see no need for even a test, and that the pro-Uber minority simply wants to have an easier game. In response to the argument about prediction: It is part of the game, so we might as well factor it in.

Also, we need to consider the metagame as it is. Scizor, ScarfLatias, and some other checks are high enough in usage right now to not qualify for "significant portion" with "little effort" being swept through. If all of Salamence's checks went down to UU or NU or BL, all highly unlikely, or were exiled to Ubers, also unlikely, then I'd consider Mence for Uber. Until then, I adamantly am against Uber for Mence. And the "Suspect, not Uber" argument: don't make me laugh. Suspect is a hop, skip, and a jump away from Uber. Some suspects are made OU, possibly again. However, innocent until proven guilty. Only the mods/super mods/admins in the policy review made anything like a good point for Mence to be Uber. I already posted the link to there, and I will again. http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64977. We should consult that before we make any more arguments.

 

[Ulevo]

Wobbufett didn't trap things and Tickle them into submission without another Pokemon. Garchomp wasn't a stand-alone sweeper. Shaymin-S never went into battle without any type of support. Why is Salamence excluded from having a partner?

Wobbuffet did not need a specified team member to kill a Pokemon, or create sweeping conditions for any other sweeper in the game. Your Tickle example is conveniently ignoring the other moves Wobuffett learns. Why you are arguing Garchomp wasn't a stand alone Pokemon is beyond me, but clearly is was. All it needed was a single Sword Dance, and a Yache Berry, and a safe switch in after something had died, and it 1-2HKO'd and all of OU without prediction, outsped nearly all non-choiced OU Pokemon, and could outlast every retaliation by "checks" barring maybe Explosion. Garchomp did not need a partner in crime for any of these conditions to be met, and by itself was capable of taking out minimum two Pokemon per game without assistance. Shaymin-S never had support? Could you please be more specific? Are we talking specialized support, or the support provided by the team, in which case you're point is completely redundant. This is a 6v6 metagame, and whether or not a Pokemon needs support to sweep, wall or end matches should be excluded from the obvious fact that all party members will receive assistance anyway. That's how Pokemon works.

Are you suggesting an EX or Overpowered list where you can take up to one member of, but not any more in OU?

Erm, no... I wasn't making any implications of that sort. I just mean that if people will argue that Salamence requires essential team support in order to be suspect, then it begs the question; is Salamence not a suspect, or is the combination of Salamence and [insertexamplehere] suspect? In which event, do we ban one, or both? Such arguments open up a whole new can of worms that we really don't need to concern ourselves with.

I think the idea that Salamence needs team support, outside of Stealth Rock, to fit the criteria under the Suspect Policy is ridiculous and is a clear indication that it isn't suspect. And I'd never personally advocate banning combinations.

 

[Erazor]

I think the idea that Salamence needs team support, outside of Stealth Rock, to fit the criteria under the Suspect Policy is ridiculous and is a clear indication that it isn't suspect. And I'd never personally advocate banning combinations.

Refer to my previous post. By your reasoning, almost every Uber should be unbanned.

All pokemon need some support, some just need more of it than others. Wobbuffet, Kyogre, and Groudon are possibly the only exceptions to this rule.
Even Garchomp needed Sand Support for the icing on the cake, and Sub/SD variants needed Magnezone support.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Weavile with Ice Shard is a check.
Scizor with Bullet Punch is a check.
Latias is a check to non-DDMence
Scarfed Latias is a check to all Mences.
Scarfed Jirachi is a check.
Scarfed Flygon is a check.
Specs Jolteon is a check to non-DDMence.
Aerodactyl is a cehck to non-DDMence.
Porygon-2 is a check to DDMence.

Weavile isn't a check because it cannot safely switch into any attack at all, especially after SR is on the field. It only works if you can call the DD. It is OHKO'd after SR with any attack from any set except crunch and earthquake.

That's actually kinda the point of this whole thread. Just go down the list. You need to know what Mence's set is before you can really check anything, and in order to figure out its set you have to potentially sacrifice something. You can't say if it'll DM on the switch or Fire Blast, and your <Insert check you listed here> gets rocked by the missed guesswork.

It is the combination of its sets that makes Salamence so deadly. If it had only one viable set, such as the DD set, it'd be much more manageable. It's the fact that it doesn't matter what the enemy's team is, that Salamence could be anything, and there's no way you can adequately 'predict' it.

If the other arguments for Mence as Uber are like that (and RaikouLover showed they were quite flimsy), I see no need for even a test, and that the pro-Uber minority simply wants to have an easier game. In response to the argument about prediction: It is part of the game, so we might as well factor it in.

See above. Prediction is one thing, sure, but you simply can't predict Salamence on its first turn out. You're guessing. No other pokemon is so difficult to predict properly, if it's possible at all.

That alone makes it fit the offensive characteristic on some level. It's simply too versatile, that it can deal a significant portion of damage to the team with very little self threat. It deserves a test, and if the tests prove that he is not so dangerous, then I'm willing to accept that.

 

[Ulevo]

Refer to my previous post. By your reasoning, almost every Uber should be unbanned.

All pokemon need some support, some just need more of it than others. Wobbuffet, Kyogre, and Groudon are possibly the only exceptions to this rule.
Even Garchomp needed Sand Support for the icing on the cake, and Sub/SD variants needed Magnezone support.

I really don't believe you know what you're talking about here, but whatever. There's a difference between essential support, and beneficial support.

 

[Objection]

Weavile isn't a check because it cannot safely switch into any attack at all, especially after SR is on the field. It only works if you can call the DD.

Bolded part = enough to make it a check.

That's actually kinda the point of this whole thread. Just go down the list. You need to know what Mence's set is before you can really check anything, and in order to figure out its set you have to potentially sacrifice something. You can't say if it'll DM on the switch or Fire Blast, and your <Insert check you listed here> gets rocked by the missed guesswork.

OK, if we are to assume prediction is invalid when fighting against Mence, then logically we must assume prediction is invalid when using Mence as well. This means that unless it is out against a steel-type, the only things Mence should be using are Dragon Dance or a STAB move other than Outrage. Suddenly, by removing prediction, almost every steel-type becomes a check. Now, if you disagree with the possibility of almost every steel-type being a Mence check, then you cannot disregard prediction.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Bolded part = enough to make it a check.

Only for that set, not all sets as he claimed.

OK, if we are to assume prediction is invalid when fighting against Mence, then logically we must assume prediction is invalid when using Mence as well. This means that unless it is out against a steel-type, the only things Mence should be using are Dragon Dance or a STAB move other than Outrage. Suddenly, by removing prediction, almost every steel-type becomes a check. Now, if you disagree with the possibility of almost every steel-type being a Mence check, then you cannot disregard prediction.

Err, your point B doesn't follow at all from point A. For starters, switching into a Pokemon's move is entirely different than choosing which move to use. Say that Salamence' owner has scouted most of the enemy's team and finds most of what will/can switch into certain attacks. He has then narrowed down his options and can act accordingly. You as the person switching in don't get any advantage from knowing your enemy's team at that point, so you can't really predict what it'll do. You can only hope you picked better than he did.

 

[Objection]

Err, your point B doesn't follow at all from point A. For starters, switching into a Pokemon's move is entirely different than choosing which move to use. Say that Salamence' owner has scouted most of the enemy's team and finds most of what will/can switch into certain attacks. He has then narrowed down his options and can act accordingly. You as the person switching in don't get any advantage from knowing your enemy's team at that point, so you can't really predict what it'll do.

Even if you can't predict what it'll do, you do still gain the death fodder advantage. Besides, if DDMence and Mixmence have different teammates, then knowing what other pokemon your opponent has means you can predict whether or not Salamence will be able to use Dragon Dance or Draco Meteor.

It might be a wise idea for Mence to not use a move when it first comes in, or it might be a wise idea to not switch out against Mence. There are not "different types of prediction", there is just "prediction", and you can't have prediction being "sometimes valid".

 

[Rising_Dusk]

The problem is, prediction is prediction, so either all prediction is valid or all prediction is invalid.

That's silly. Prediction is always "valid," it's just Mence is always in a position where it has the upper hand the first turn it's in because you can't easily predict it.

Besides, if DDMence and Mixmence have different teammates, then knowing what other pokemon your opponent has means you can predict whether or not Salamence will be able to use Dragon Dance or Draco Meteor.

They do to some extent, but MixMence fits into a wide variety of teams that DDMence also fits into and vice versa. It's a much harder call.

 

[Aura Guardian]

That's silly. Prediction is always "valid," it's just Mence is always in a position where it has the upper hand the first turn it's in because you can't easily predict it.

I could say the same for Lucario if Gliscor is out of the way. Usually, it runs SD, but it might have Specs on. If it doe have Specs, it has an instant advantage. Isn't Mence similar? It can run one set, or it could have another. And DO NOT tell me that two of Salamence's sets are run in about equal proportion. It is less than relevant. The odds of guessing are different, but a misguess won't be quite as lethal. And what about Smeargle? It can support the team well, just like Salamence sweeps.

@Ulevo: I was joking about that EX or Overpowered bit.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I could say the same for Lucario if Gliscor is out of the way.

You could, but the fact that Gliscor exists negates any claims against Luke. Gengar and scarf'd Rotom-h are also quite capable checks to SDLuke.

Usually, it runs SD, but it might have Specs on.

You must be kidding.

| Lucario | Item | Life Orb | 76.4 |
| Lucario | Item | Focus Sash | 8.8 |
| Lucario | Item | Other (7) | < 4.9 |

And DO NOT tell me that two of Salamence's sets are run in about equal proportion.

They're pretty darned close.

| Salamence | Move | Earthquake | 79.3 |
| Salamence | Move | Outrage | 62.8 |
| Salamence | Move | Dragon Dance | 52.9 |
| Salamence | Move | Fire Blast | 45.0 |
| Salamence | Move | Draco Meteor | 38.4 |
| Salamence | Move | Flamethrower | 24.0 |
| Salamence | Move | Roost | 22.2 |

The odds of guessing are different, but a misguess won't be quite as lethal.

It always is with Salamence.

 

[Aura Guardian]

You could, but the fact that Gliscor exists negates any claims against Luke. Gengar and scarf'd Rotom-h are also quite capable checks to SDLuke.
So? Get Salamence's checks/potential counters out of the way, and Salamence has a free ride: just like with Lucario
You must be kidding.
I use Specs Luke. It's quite powerful, especially against other Lucario, and against the metagame.

They're pretty darned close.
The idea is, it's irrelevant. You mince my words and misinterpret them with astonishing speed. Please stop misconstruing what I say.

It always is with Salamence.
The idea is, if you have a good check that can also function well in the rest of battle, it is not as lethal with misguessing.

My exact wording was, "And DO NOT tell me that two of Salamence's sets are run in about equal proportion. It is less than relevant." I Bolded, Italiced, and underlined why I said that so that you cannot possibly miss it again.

 

[MrIndigo]

As I already pointed out, a situation that reduces to a coinflip based on prediction is biased in favour of the offensive player, not the defensive.

If a defensive player loses the predict, they lose their clutch pokemon and the offensive player sweeps them out. If the defensive player wins the predict, they delay the sweep (but don't actually gain anything).

Also, the more information each player has (i.e. the further into the battle you go), the more the bias shifts in favour of the offensive player, because they are more able to predict accurately, knowing what options exist for the defending player and possibly having removed their check.

 

[Aura Guardian]

The idea is, multiple pokemon check Salamence well enough, and including two is not a detriment to the team. Don't argue, What if one is KOed? If such, then the defensive player messed up. Anyway, SR + SS + LO will get Mence weak enough that Scizor, who's sky-high use is one of the reasons Mence cannot be Uber, can KO or force it out to take even more damage. Anyway, you completely ignored the rest of my post. If you're going to respont to part of it, please respond to all of it, or aknowledge the rest of it. What is your response to it?

 

[MrIndigo]

And Salamence's power has been cited as one of the resons Scizors use is sky-high.

I wasn't actually responding to your post, though; I started writing before you replied. However, the usage stats ARE relevant; it shows that both sets are relevant in the metagame, and the fact that they cover each other contributes to it's power.

 

[Veedrock]

"Salamence can be dealt with" is just as incompetent an argument as "Salamence is guaranteed a KO." We can deal with many Ubers in OU, that does not secure them placement in the tier.

 

[Aura Guardian]

And Salamence's power has been cited as one of the resons Scizors use is sky-high.

If it were the ONLY reason, I might buy into it. However, Scizor is powerful regardless, so Scizor's place as #1 in usage is irrellevant for Salamnce overcentralizing. Without Mence, I'd say, maybe #3 at the least for Scizor. However, Scizor is a problem for Mence, so until Scizor is out of the picture, Mence is not unstoppable.
@ Veedrock: The idea is, a commonly used pokemon blocks Mence from overcentralizing. So what if Kyogre is countered by Ludicolo or some other combination? We don't use those counters to the Ubers enough to qualify.

The metagame is what determines whether a Pokemon can easily sweep. If Kyogre had ten counters and 3 were in the top 10 and 2 more in the top 20 in use, I'd consider advocating Kyogre for OU. Salamence has enough checks that it can be stopped.

 

[Veedrock]

@ Veedrock: The idea is, a commonly used pokemon blocks Mence from overcentralizing. So what if Kyogre is countered by Ludicolo or some other combination? We don't use those counters to the Ubers enough to qualify

If Kyogre was OU, would Ludicolo and company not be commonly used? How common a pokemon is has no value because it can be a result of his usage.

EDIT: You're missing my point entirely. Scizor could easily take on Rayquaza as well but he's not stepping into OU anytime soon. Scizor could also handle Deoxys, and a variety of other ubers. So if they were OU, Scizor's common usage would warrant their placement? It does not matter if the threat is manageable, no matter how the method may be. That is not how a pokemon's status is determined.

 

[Aura Guardian]

Scizor is powerful enough on its own merit to be commonly used. Ludicolo and company are not. That is what distinguishes them. So what if not everybody uses the pokemon? It's used enough, people lower on the ladder might not use it when they should (and we shouldn't count the low on the ladder, right? They aren't skilled enough to qualify.) Are the people at the top using it in a broken manner? If not, then Mence shouldn't be Uber. So what if someone creates an ultra-powerful set for 0-1250 CRE or some other range? If it isn't able to compete in the high levels, then why bother? Also, MrIndigo, about the 50-50 thing going in favor of the attacker: no. Even if 40% of the time, it goes to the defender, that is like a hypnosis: It was better at the 30% failure. At 40% failure, it got to be too much. Sure, it might be biased in favor of the attacker, especially on the second go because they know the counter, but the defender will also have a clue about the set.

 

[Phantom_IV]

Indigo, the person that needs to switch something in is often at a disadvantage. That's why people try to force switches. And <pokemon> nearly always has <move> that OHKOs <counter/check>.

On your coin flip analogy, Specs Kingdra has a 50/50 chance of destroying your switch-in with a neutral 120/140 bp STAB (barring empoleon and blissey). Picking wrong will get you OHKO'ed.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

My exact wording was, "And DO NOT tell me that two of Salamence's sets are run in about equal proportion. It is less than relevant." I Bolded, Italiced, and underlined why I said that so that you cannot possibly miss it again.

I don't care if you make the font size so large only six letters fit on the screen - I cited it because it is important and very relevant, whether you think it is or not.

IHowever, the usage stats ARE relevant; it shows that both sets are relevant in the metagame, and the fact that they cover each other contributes to it's power.

Exactly.

The idea is, multiple pokemon check Salamence well enough, and including two is not a detriment to the team. Don't argue, What if one is KOed? If such, then the defensive player messed up. Anyway, SR + SS + LO will get Mence weak enough that Scizor, who's sky-high use is one of the reasons Mence cannot be Uber, can KO or force it out to take even more damage. Anyway, you completely ignored the rest of my post. If you're going to respont to part of it, please respond to all of it, or aknowledge the rest of it. What is your response to it?

You're not listening, though. The point isn't that "Oh God my Salamence check is dead" it's that your Salamence check has a high probability of not even checking the type of Salamence that you're up against. Your Scizor is great against Mence once he gets in, but if he walks into a Fire Blast, he's toasty. What's worse is that almost all Mence carry Fire Blast, and if you have Scizor on your team, you're likely revealing it early on. He'll know about it. You run a serious risk by sending him in, one that in many cases will get you killed at no expense to Salamence. (That is the Offensive Characteristic, by the way)