Salamence - The Face of The Next Suspect, or Merely OU's Strongest Dragon?

[Stylish Interval]

I'm not saying that's the only way to beat it. I'm saying that's a relatively common and easy way to defeat it that weakens it's case for the Offensive Characteristic. If it's limited to one kill per game then it is not sweeping a majority of teams.

Another note: You cannot compare Salamence and Wobbuffet at all. I believe another member has already pointed this out, but Wobbuffet could choose who it came in on and beat. Salamence is forced to kill the member you choose. If you choose a worthless, useless Pokemon for Salamence to defeat then Salamence did nothing for the team and did not support the sweeper.

One final note in response to you: If another Dragon Dance Pokemon (Gyarados, Tyranitar, Dragonite) get a DD late game when everything else is weakened, what is your answer to them? Can your Pokemon handle these threats late game if the opponent has weakened your team? Priority and revenge killing are two common methods of defeating opponents in this metagame. It's nothing new to the metagame and it isn't specific just to Salamence, it extends to other Pokemon and sweepers.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I'm not saying that's the only way to beat it. I'm saying that's a relatively common and easy way to defeat it that weakens it's case for the Offensive Characteristic. If it's limited to one kill per game then it is not sweeping a majority of teams.

I don't think it'll fit under the offensive characteristic. It really can't sweep a whole team from the ground up and avert death at every turn. If anything, it's the support characteristic that Mence should be considered for.

Another note: You cannot compare Salamence and Wobbuffet at all. I believe another member has already pointed this out, but Wobbuffet could choose who it came in on and beat. Salamence is forced to kill the member you choose. If you choose a worthless, useless Pokemon for Salamence to defeat then Salamence did nothing for the team and did not support the sweeper.

Yup, agreed. I'm surprised you saw that, I edited it out immediately after I posted and read my post for the first time. :p

One final note in response to you: If another Dragon Dance Pokemon (Gyarados, Tyranitar, Dragonite) get a DD late game when everything else is weakened, what is your answer to them? Can your Pokemon handle these threats late game if the opponent has weakened your team? Priority and revenge killing are two common methods of defeating opponents in this metagame. It's nothing new to the metagame and it isn't specific just to Salamence, it extends to other Pokemon and sweepers.

Of course, and I agree with you. Revenge killing is important and a major part of the game. The thing is, though, Gyarados and Tyranitar come in and you can switch something in and immediately threaten them with a KO without them having any chance to beat you. Switch in a Zapdos on that pesky Gyarados as he DD's, live the Ice Fang, and OHKO in return - or force him to flee. Dragonite's low speed makes the list of things that beat it much longer than Mence's, and its lack of Intimidate on the switch in makes it less physically bulky on the first turn its out. (So things can more easily stay in and smack it hard) Dragonite may be more bulky, but his speed and lower SpA are really the main reasons why he's largely outclassed by Mence for punching gaping holes in enemy teams. The MixNite set just doesn't hit as hard as MixMence, so his diversity is limited. TTar is even slower and is weak to the ever-present steel attacks. Bulky waters can take the hits well and hit back hard, and Jirachi and Scizor smash it something serious.

For Mence, though, there just isn't that safe switch-in. That's what makes him stand out over the others. He is unique in that regard.

 

[MrIndigo]

The way most of you are thinking when you think about this is that all Pokemon switch into Salamence to threaten it. It's like you've forgotten all about strategy. If I know my Swampert is my best shot at taking care of Salamence, and I know that I can get by without another Pokemon, I'll send it out to take the damage and get Swampert in safely. In this way, Swampert has not come in with "perfect prediction" or taken any prior damage, as the majority of you are acting like it would. A player doesn't always just send in a Pokemon, but rather implies strategy that suits the current situation. That's all I've got to say for the moment.

This is a good argument, but it's the sort of thing that doesn't have a clear-cut frequency of effectiveness compared to the times that you can't switch in.

It's also been shown that "I can revenge kill it" is not a satisfactory reason for why something shouldn't be tested, particularly given the argument for Support Criteria.

It's for this reason that I think a Suspect test would be so valuable.

 

[Little Battler]

Actually, I can revenge kill it is not even a reason why we shouldn't test it. Nearly anything can be revenge killed, even Garchomp can be revenged with an ice shard, and although it does resist stealth rock, but spikes hurts chomp, so if 2-3 layers of spikes are down, chomp isn't really going anywhere either.

So, why shouldn't we test mence too? It may be weak to SR, but it's immune to spikes and toxic spikes. It also has a very diverse movepool, and the stats allow it to do almost anything. It's very hard to counter, unlike the other dragons that are only capable of using 1-2 sets, it can use DD, CB, CS (lol? scarfmence?), mixed, mixed + DD, bulkymence, and lots of other sets. That unpredictability alone makes it worthy to be a suspect IMO, so why not test him? It may not be wrecking teams apart and punching holes here and there everytime (we often see it ending up useless because of SR), but nonetheless, nearly 90% of the time it does actually do damage, lots of it.

 

[DarkLynx]

If the only way you can beat a Pokemon is by letting it kill something and then revenging it, then it is definitely fitting of the support characteristic for being an Uber as it intentionally forces you to lose someone to beat it.

LOL. Dude, every single sweeper in OU usually gets something to 'predict' the set, or if someone throw a Scizor in your Blissey, you'll automatically switch to Heatran to kill it? Of course not, you'll send something to scout SD or Banded move, then switch to the proper counter. Being an uber is 'SWEEP THROUGH TEAMS with little or no setup', not 'Always kill one poke just to find a proper counter' -.-

--Edit--

Also, if you're really good with predict, you can kill DD mence without any harm. Let's say you switch to a Jirachi on a DD mence, Fire Blast/Flamethrower doesn't kill Mence in one hit, so you go for the Earthquake, which always OHKO not Def+ Jirachis. Then your opponent predict that obvious attack and switch to Scarf Latias. And that's it, your Salamence is useless and you can either take a Draco Meteor on the face or switch Mence out, and come back later with 50% HP, which is on the kill range for any priority move on the game ^^

My point is, Salamence needs perfect prediction to be able to destroy teams, and this is not simple.
As stated on the other thread ( I don't know WHY there are two threads about it ). Salamence has been OU ever since...I don't know, R/S/E? And then, he managed to learn Outrage in Platinum, which was released in 2008 (Jp) and 2009 (US). We've played one year with it on the metagame packing Outrage, ans it has never been a problem. Why bother about it now?

 

[Aura Guardian]

Actually, I can revenge kill it is not even a reason why we shouldn't test it. Nearly anything can be revenge killed, even Garchomp can be revenged with an ice shard Yache Berry on Garchomp, and although it does resist stealth rock, but spikes hurts chomp, so if 2-3 layers of spikes are down So? Bring in Garchomp when one layer is down, then punish the spiker, chomp isn't really going anywhere either.

So, why shouldn't we test mence too? It may be weak to SR, but it's immune to spikes and toxic spikes That just means that Stall teams have a little more trouble with him. It also has a very diverse movepool, and the stats allow it to do almost anything. It's very hard to counter, unlike the other dragons Need I remind everyone of Dragonite, able to 2HKO literally everything? Also, Dragonite has a good priority attack. Salamence doesn't. Both have good Attack and Special Attack. Dragonite has some better positions than Mence to boot. that are only capable of using 1-2 sets, it can use DD, CB, CS (lol? scarfmence? Or Specs?), mixed, mixed + DD, bulkymence, and lots of other sets. That unpredictability alone makes it worthy to be a suspect IMO So? Heatran has some different sets, and some are better at taking down some Pokemon while others beat yet a different set of mons, so why not test him? It may not be wrecking teams apart and punching holes here and there everytime (we often see it ending up useless because of SR), but nonetheless, nearly 90% of the time it does actually do damage, lots of it. If it does 500% to, oh, Skarmory or Blissey, but they heal 464% or such, then I would consider that little damage. The same principle would apply to other Pokemon as well. Who cares if Lucario does 357% overall? If you heal 234%, give or take, then really, it was just one or two KOs, depending on your teams current health. In any case, Mence is easily stopped by Paralysis or Burn, if you have a pokemon capable of such out already or able to take two unboosted attacks.

I have bolded my responses in my quotation of your argument. EDIT: Oh, and, yes, "I can revenge kill it" is an argument for not testing it.

 

[DJXO9]

I have bolded my responses in my quotation of your argument. EDIT: Oh, and, yes, "I can revenge kill it" is an argument for not testing it.

So, what you're saying is, is that if a pokemon can be revenged, it should be OU. That is the absolute stupidest argument, and I've some terrible arguments in this thread.

So why shouldn't, say, Rayquaza be OU? He can be revenged by Scizor, and Weavile, and Mamoswine, and any pokemon that has over Base 90 speed. Rayquaza will never, ever be OU though, until later generations bring in more pokemon and force him down. Arceus can be revenged too, so maybe he should be OU too.

What I'm trying to say is, any pokemon can be revenged. What matters is what that pokemon can do before getting revenged. Even then, the pokemon can just switch out and just come back later.

 

[Objection]

What I'm trying to say is, any pokemon can be revenged. What matters is what that pokemon can do before getting revenged. Even then, the pokemon can just switch out and just come back later.

In which case, if we are to say that Salamence fits the offensive characteristic, we need to quantify "little effort". If we can't, then the offensive characteristic is invalid for at least Salamence.

 

[Aura Guardian]

EDIT: This is @ DJXO9 (or is it DJX09, with a "zero" instead of an "O?")

I'm not saying that if any pokemon can be revenged, it should be OU or lower. I'm saying that Mence is revenged or forced out easily enough that Mence cannot sweep through entire teams with little effort. That last bit is the criteria for Uber, Offense Characteristic. Yes, almost any Pokemon can be revenged.
As for your reference to Rayquaza:
Rayquaza can, after one DD, ouspeed any threat except priority and Scarfers, which can be beat with an ExtremeSpeed. Anyway, Jumpman16 already told us not to compare to Rayquaza anymore. Rayquaza is about an order of magnitude stronger, overall.
As for Arceus: ExtremeSpeed, higher stats than any Uber, overall. Rarely outsped. Don't insult Arceus with those comparisons, either.

 

[Blue_Tornado]

I think the main thing making this thread stay in a standstill is the fact that people come to this thread with their thoughts stuck in their heads. People that want it OU won't get convinced by those calling it an Uber and vice versa. Though - remember that this is a thread stating why Salamence should be tested, and not why it should be Uber. Please - just bear that in mind and maybe all this discussion can be translated as a suspect test.

 

[Aura Guardian]

EDIT: beaten to the post, again. This is @ Blue_Tornado

The point of a test is that many people (more than half, perhaps) think that it's possibly Uber, and we want to find out for certain.

not in discussion, but...

Anyway, I motion again for this thread to be replaced by another poll thread to see how opinions might have changed. Also, I think the poll should have been added after a lengthy discussion, so that people can be free of being stuck with a position they do not like anymore (NOT ME, but possibly others).

 

[Blue_Tornado]

The point of a test is that many people (more than half, perhaps) think that it's possibly Uber, and we want to find out for certain.

What? Through the test, we might find out things that we couldn't find without testing. The whole point in a test is to find more reasons for it to be OU/Uber, and if it were to be like you say, we wouldn't need tests at all.

 

[Aura Guardian]

The key word is "possible" in "think that it's possibly Uber." By your logic, we could try testing Bulbasaur or Pichu or Scyther, or, more likely, Scizor or Latias (again). None of them seem at all Uber. With Salamence, we've already got the metagame as it is to look at. Salamence is not as hideously Overused as Scizor is. We can see already what Mence does in the metagame. If Salamence is broken, we have yet to see it.

 

[Blue_Tornado]

The key word is "possible" in "think that it's possibly Uber." By your logic, we could try testing Bulbasaur or Pichu or Scyther, or, more likely, Scizor or Latias (again). None of them seem at all Uber. With Salamence, we've already got the metagame as it is to look at. Salamence is not as hideously Overused as Scizor is. We can see already what Mence does in the metagame. If Salamence is broken, we have yet to see it.

So if Salamence isn't broken, how do you explain all this discussion?

 

[lordkira]

So is Salamence isn't broken, how do you explain all this discussion?

Personally, I, again, simply do not believe Salamence is UBER (maybe after SR is banned, but until then I believe not). However, I do believe we may have to suspect test him for the sole reason of so many people wanting the test as it may suggest it to be "broken" or at the very least controversial...enough to examine it. Still, how do you propose we suspect test it any differently from the meta we currently have with salamence being widely used? This is a serious question, how will the suspect testing be any different?

 

[IcyMan28]

Personally, I, again, simply do not believe Salamence is UBER (maybe after SR is banned, but until then I believe not). However, I do believe we may have to suspect test him for the sole reason of so many people wanting the test as it may suggest it to be "broken" or at the very least controversial...enough to examine it. Still, how do you propose we suspect test it any differently from the meta we currently have with salamence being widely used? This is a serious question, how will the suspect testing be any different?

Though it has been said before, Stealth Rock is one of the most influential points that the non-test camp has been bringing up. I think it's equally as important to ask ourselves why, if Stealth Rock is such a key factor, Salamence is still holding the #2 spot behind Scizor, who's utility is understandable with U-Turn. There are clearly a wide variety of positive points that have already been discussed, and that balance and possibly even outweigh the impact of Stealth Rock.

To answer your second question, I believe this test would be similar to the original Chomp test, meaning that Salamence would instead be removed from the Suspect Ladder and the two metagames compared.

 

[Metang with]

Though it has been said before, Stealth Rock is one of the most influential points that the non-test camp has been bringing up.

If salamence isn't going to be tested because of the rocks, then we should test ho-oh first

 

[Aura Guardian]

Stealth Rock is part of the metagame. If it cripples Mence, then Mence is still just OU. If SR were banned or not common, then Mence just might be close to suspect ("I'm not sure" category)

 

[Metang with]

Stealth Rock is part of the metagame. If it cripples Mence, then Mence is still just OU. If SR were banned or not common, then Mence just might be close to suspect ("I'm not sure" category)

The same logic could be applied to ho-oh, like i said

 

[Blue_Tornado]

Still, how do you propose we suspect test it any differently from the meta we currently have with salamence being widely used? This is a serious question, how will the suspect testing be any different?

There will be two metagames - one with Salamence and the other without. The point here is to see how a metagame without Salamence works, and through that we might find evidence of it being OU/Uber and finally ending this pointless circular discussion. This thread is only the prime example of the circulation around this - 29 pages without any progress that would get us to a conclusion. What I believe would get us to what we want is a test, simple as that. That way we have a big chance of finding and discovering things we haven't have known before, that would tell us whenever Salamence is OU or Uber. At this current state, we simply do not have enough resources to conclude on Salamences state, so that is why I believe Salamence is in need of a test.

Stealth Rock is part of the metagame. If it cripples Mence, then Mence is still just OU. If SR were banned or not common, then Mence just might be close to suspect ("I'm not sure" category)

Once again, people are jumping to conclusions. Stealth Rock isn't enough reason to say "this is OU", for the FINAL TIME. All of these 29 pages have been using this same sentence and we have not been making ANY progress. Stealth Rocks impact Salamences usefulness, but do not make it OU. When will this be finally clear??

And by the way:

Rayquaza can, after one DD, ouspeed any threat except priority and Scarfers, which can be beat with an ExtremeSpeed. Anyway, Jumpman16 already told us not to compare to Rayquaza anymore. Rayquaza is about an order of magnitude stronger, overall.

And your point? Salamence has 5 base speed more than Rayquaza, so this point is completely pointless.

 

[lordkira]

It's the SD set with ES that really differentiates Ray and Mence as two quite different pokemons. If one is to compare these two pokemons, then I would say DD is only one of the sets that can be individually compared rather than the two pokemons as a whole between ray and mence. But then again, I think jumpman already went into some details between these two pokies so I won't get into much detail.

 

[Aura Guardian]

EDIT: Yet again, I'm a snail. I even considered changing my avatar to a snail/slug/similar-shaped mon because of hhow often I've posted a minute or two too late.

ONE: I said that if stealth rock cripples Mence, it should be OU.
TWO: Salamence doesn't have Priority. Rayquaza, after one DD, can outspeed any Ice Shard user with ESpeed. Mence CANNOT. That is why it matters.

 

[Blue_Tornado]

It's the SD set with ES that really differentiates Ray and Mence as two quite different pokemons. If one is to compare these two pokemons, then I would say DD is only one of the sets that can be individually compared rather than the two pokemons as a whole between ray and mence. But then again, I think jumpman already went into some details between these two pokies so I won't get into much detail.

Who compared Salamence with Ray, and even with SD? Of course not. I just explained that saying that Ray outspeeds most threats as a way of saying "Mence is OU" is completely false since Mence outspeeds Ray anyway. Your post doesn't have to do with anything really...

EDIT: Yet again, I'm a snail. I even considered changing my avatar to a snail/slug/similar-shaped mon because of hhow often I've posted a minute or two too late.

ONE: I said that if stealth rock cripples Mence, it should be OU.
TWO: Salamence doesn't have Priority. Rayquaza, after one DD, can outspeed any Ice Shard user with ESpeed. Mence CANNOT. That is why it matters.

ONE: Even if SR cripples Mence, that means it's OU? Where have you been all this time? There are a lot of other factors that balance out the fact that Mence is crippled by SR, such as his versitality and it's ability to change counters and checks through sets. With all this in account, the way Salamence is crippled with SR barely means anything. Sure, it's a drawback, but it definitely doesn't make it OU. I advise you check the charatariscits again.

TWO: And you didn't even mention priority. Only someone that doesn't have anything else to say would mention Rayquaza in a Salamence discussion, and your point doesn't have anything to do with Salamence. As a response, I assumed you weren't comparing movepools and only comparing stats, but I guess I was wrong.

@J-Man: Again, I was only using stats as a meter, not movepool, since obviously the movepool isn't something Aura mentioned in his pointless explanation.

 

[J-man]

Just to point something out, Blue Tornado (which i'll probably be ridiculed but whatever). Even though Salamence is Faster than Ray, Ray has extremespeed, so if they are in a one on one my money goes to Ray who can use that monstrous base 150 Atk stat combined with Extremespeed to knock out Mence before Mence can Outrage/ DC / DM ray.

 

[kuja20]

Good lord, there is pretty much 29 pages of theorymoning, and people ignoring other people's opinions. If Salamence was not considered broken, there would be little point of this thread being put up in the first place. If you don't like Salamence where it is, or if you do, test the damned thing, and get a vote on it. Although the point of a suspect test is to make an unbiased vote based on the results of the suspect testing, i'm not sure many people here aren't boneheadedly set on sending it where they want without caring about the testing. All that's being said here is "your point is pointless, mine is better" then another round of that, and another round, but this is just going around in circles.

Personally, I want to see a metagame that isn't centralized around one pokemon, and Salamence is suspected of doing so. Suspect testing isn't saying Salamence is definately Uber, it's saying there is a possibility of it being Uber, if it isn't then it's just top-tier OU. Salamence is one of the most debatable pokemon in the OU metagame today, and in order for everyone to be sure of that, it deserves a test (or more than one depending on the results).

The majority of people here are intelligent, so how about some discussion that takes other people's opinions and views into consideration hmm?