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Salamence Theorymonning
- Thread starter SJCrew
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1. Gyarados is slower and cannot sweep with the pure versatility and unpredictability Salamence musters. While Water STAB is awesome, Dragon STAB is far better, and fyi it still loses to Rock-type attacks, among others. If you think you need Tbolt to kill Gyara, you're not playing right...
2. Dragonite has nothing to do with whether Salamence is broken or not.
3. It only got Outrage in Platinum, which is what propelled it into suspect status in the minds of many. Longevity doesn't mean a Pokémon can't be broken.
4. Read the thread, or the number of threads made about Salamence. In particular, the one KotW just linked.
I don't know why you guys are carrying on like it's already been banned, anyway.
guess this will be the reason to go ladder XD hmm no mence on suspect ladder it is the replacment for latias but who could replace him
If Salamence gets banned, the metagame will break into nothing. Without DD Mence, I expect people will be packing one of the following: (from the greatest to the lowest)
1.Lucario (packing either a Life Orb or a CB or a CS)
2.Infernape (SD or NP depending on the preference)
3.Gyara (not likely, since its kinda slow but after a DD, its GG)
And it makes predicting teams so much easier, imo.
I read the link from KotW, and I'm convinced that Salamence deserves a suspect test.
But why are we always concerned about Offensive characteristics? Why not try a suspect test for Pokemon who have uber Support characteristics?
1.Lucario (packing either a Life Orb or a CB or a CS)
2.Infernape (SD or NP depending on the preference)
3.Gyara (not likely, since its kinda slow but after a DD, its GG)
And it makes predicting teams so much easier, imo.
I read the link from KotW, and I'm convinced that Salamence deserves a suspect test.
But why are we always concerned about Offensive characteristics? Why not try a suspect test for Pokemon who have uber Support characteristics?
Oh man, this topic has been up for how long, a few hours, and it's already tl;dr. Anyway. I really think Latias is a massive, massive victim. Why?? She got voted OU however many tests, and we have the anti-Latias camp go "But she's broken". She had 4 tests with overwhelming evidence to say she was OU. Her first test was 17-4 OU, 3-1 had 61-23 OU, 3-2 was 100-27, 3-3 finally started picking up, having her at 18-12 OU. I mean, if we were trying a criminal, this would be a total farce. She had 4 tests where she was overwhelmingly OU, another test where she was still OU, and the other 2 saying she was Uber. It seems blatantly unjust that she should get 2 Uber votes and be voted Uber when she had 5 saying she's OU. We're basically prosecuting the same guy for 5 times, each time he's innocent, and then we have twice where (Forgive me) in which the jury was quite skewed and she's automatically guilty?? You think about it. I would say she needs at least 3 more tests confirming her to be Uber to at least justify that she is Uber (5 Uber votes vs 5 OU ones)
Anyway. While I would not give a crap if Salamence is banned (Don't really care either way), people going "But it has no counters" need to slap themselves. "No counters" is crappy argument these days. I've referred to this extract from The Smog 5 many times, in both OU and UU suspect tests:
Anyway. While I would not give a crap if Salamence is banned (Don't really care either way), people going "But it has no counters" need to slap themselves. "No counters" is crappy argument these days. I've referred to this extract from The Smog 5 many times, in both OU and UU suspect tests:
No counters =/= broken. Why don't we ban Gengar or Tyranitar or Rotom-A when they clearly have no concrete counter?? A Pokemon should only be broken when a Pokemon can sweep/wall/support the majority of the metagame even when it centralises the metagame and the metagame is working its ass to try and check it. Salamence might be close to being able to do that, but at least from my experiences it has been quite manageable.
Are you trying to get at that something like Jirachi should be tested? I know multiple people who argued Latias's ban based on support characteristic. I agreed with them.
I think that it has some counters. When locked into Outrage, Blissey can come in and either T-wave it or inflict poison via Toxic. Then its up to you, if it has Blizzard, a clean OHKO, if it has T-Bolt, 2OHKO then its gg.
Speaking from experience, I've found that Empoleon with a defensive set can take on Mence's Outrage with no problem (as long as it's at full HP) and either start to CM or OHKO with Ice Beam.
Edit-Yeah, jumpluff, Jirachi should be tested. Without a Magnezone (mostly to Magnet Pull him) or anything to resist Steel attacks on your team, Jirachi can Iron Head you to death, and with Serene Grace, Flinch hax ftw. Or it can go Wish support on your team.
Speaking from experience, I've found that Empoleon with a defensive set can take on Mence's Outrage with no problem (as long as it's at full HP) and either start to CM or OHKO with Ice Beam.
Edit-Yeah, jumpluff, Jirachi should be tested. Without a Magnezone (mostly to Magnet Pull him) or anything to resist Steel attacks on your team, Jirachi can Iron Head you to death, and with Serene Grace, Flinch hax ftw. Or it can go Wish support on your team.
232 Naive Life Orb Salamence Outrage vs. 252/252 Bold Leftovers Blissey : 65.7% - 77.5%
232 Naive Life Orb Salamence +1 Outrage vs. 252/252 Bold Leftovers Blissey : 98.5% - 116
And while you've statused it, Salamence has just killed your Blissey.
Blizzard has poor accuracy and you're dead anyway.
Dude, your Blissey is dead by the time it even gets one Thunderbolt in. But I'll throw you a bone. On that same -SpDef Salamence, Tbolt does 21.8% - 26%... and no one is using Tbolt on Bliss anyway.
232 Naive Life Orb Salamence Outrage vs. 0/24 Modest Petaya Berry Empoleon : 45.5% - 53.6%
232 Naive Life Orb Salamence +1 Outrage vs. 0/24 Modest Petaya Berry Empoleon : 68.2% - 80.2%
232 Naive Life Orb Salamence +1 Outrage vs. 252/160 Calm Leftovers Empoleon : 48.9% - 57.5%
http://smogon.com/dp/pokemon/empoleon/moves
ETA:
Jirachi isn't relevant right now, but let's go.
Your team should have something that resists Steel in it or it probably isn't too successful, seeing as Water and Steel (among other types, including Fire and Electric) resist it (and unless this is a mono-team or some other gimmick, I can't imagine why you wouldn't have at least one type that resists Steel in your team even without accounting for Steel-types), and with Bullet Punch Scizor, Iron Head Jirachi, and Meteor Mash Metagross being such prominent threats, you need a resisting Pokémon.
Jirachi also has a hard counter in Heatran, and is checked by a number of other Pokémon once you know its moveset. Unlike Salamence, you aren't necessarily losing a valuable Pokémon just because you had to switch something in on Jirachi. Name a set and I'll give you checks. Jirachi has none of the raw destructive power that Salamence does. Looking away from its offensive ability, it's a good supporter, sure, but what evidence is there that it's broken as a supporter? Just because it has a lot of options doesn't mean it's actually broken. Explain this to me.
Oh crap, I forgot about Avalanche, and SD too.
Edit: In fear of being getting an infraction out of trolling, this segment is deleted.
And how\where the eff do you calculate damage output, jumpluff?
OK, OK, Jirachi isn't broken as a supporter. I was stupid enough not to read the whole page. Heatran and Magnezone can kill it, and seeing that they're on every damn team I have played against, its kinda useless.
Edit: In fear of being getting an infraction out of trolling, this segment is deleted.
And how\where the eff do you calculate damage output, jumpluff?
OK, OK, Jirachi isn't broken as a supporter. I was stupid enough not to read the whole page. Heatran and Magnezone can kill it, and seeing that they're on every damn team I have played against, its kinda useless.
Sorry for the light-hearted post and my poor camera quality, but I was playing with my plushies and made this to poke fun gently at a lot of people: http://i48.tinypic.com/2ugkysy.png
Adm.Empoleon: There are a number of damage calcs on the internet, the best being either Libelldra's or ours. Ours is better and integrated with Smogon analyses, but Libelldra does allow for KO chance.
Adm.Empoleon: There are a number of damage calcs on the internet, the best being either Libelldra's or ours. Ours is better and integrated with Smogon analyses, but Libelldra does allow for KO chance.
There would be no suspect test IF there was no reason to test it. There is a lot of controversy over Salamence and a lot of people believes it deserves a test at the very least, therefore, we are getting a test. If you believe it OU, then qualify for the voting pool and vote OU on it.
Just because Salamence is being tested does not guarantee that it will move into Ubers. Also remember that the suspect testing is about personal experiences, as opposed to just theorymonning the whole thing.
Personally, I am happy to see Salamence get tested, regardless of the result of the entire thing, and also happy to see that we should get a quicker result. There will be people bitching no matter what the result is, either way it's a change, and would be nice to not remain in the same stale metagame for too long.
I find it funny when some people say banning Mence is wrong because then we'll end up banning any other "dominant" pokémon in the metagame even though some players say the best metagame we had was the post-Garchomp, pre-Plat one.
You know, the one where Heatran was #1 and everybody was happy.
But we just had to get Platinum...
You know, the one where Heatran was #1 and everybody was happy.
But we just had to get Platinum...
I agree and generally share this opinion. While some of the specifics in that thread no longer hold, the general idea still rings true imo.
There are 493 Pokemon now, with another 100+ on the way soon. There are almost as many moves to pick from and plenty of hold items that have utility. You are not going to be able to handle every possible combination no matter how hard you try, and every now and then there are going to be some Pokemon capable of taking down 1 or more of your party members before you can stop it. The sooner you accept this and choose to play through it with your own strategy instead of fretting over how to always counter your opponent, the better off you will be.
Haha nice.
A few things I would like to say:
3 | Salamence | 205028 | 20.91
Salamence is number 3. not number 1. If only 21% of the people used Salamence on their teams, this must mean the other 79% didn't. If Salamence was truly "broken", everybody would use it and the percent usage would be much higher. If this truly is a "free kill every time", then why doesn't everybody use it? why only 21%?
also, my scarfrachi counters salamence almost 100% of the time. It can survive an earthquake and a fire blast, and ohko with an ice punch. it can come in on a ddance, outspeed, and ohko with an ice punch. Sure, salamence might switch, but most people don't know that jirachi will marginally survive, and ohko back. for those who care, here are the calcs.
Standard DDmence Earthquake vs 100 Hp Naive Jirachi 78.7% - 92.9% -2HKO
Standard DDmence Fire Blast vs 100 Hp Naive Jirachi 75.4% - 89.1%
As shown, I can safely switch in, and with Ice punch, do 78.5% - 93.1%, which is a clean kill with Stealth Rock. Of course, that is with 0 Evs in attack, so you can always use the remaining 156 (100 hp, 252 spe) Evs on Attack, going for the OHKO without Sr, or invest more in SpA to deal more with Thunderbolt.
3 | Salamence | 205028 | 20.91
Salamence is number 3. not number 1. If only 21% of the people used Salamence on their teams, this must mean the other 79% didn't. If Salamence was truly "broken", everybody would use it and the percent usage would be much higher. If this truly is a "free kill every time", then why doesn't everybody use it? why only 21%?
also, my scarfrachi counters salamence almost 100% of the time. It can survive an earthquake and a fire blast, and ohko with an ice punch. it can come in on a ddance, outspeed, and ohko with an ice punch. Sure, salamence might switch, but most people don't know that jirachi will marginally survive, and ohko back. for those who care, here are the calcs.
Standard DDmence Earthquake vs 100 Hp Naive Jirachi 78.7% - 92.9% -2HKO
Standard DDmence Fire Blast vs 100 Hp Naive Jirachi 75.4% - 89.1%
As shown, I can safely switch in, and with Ice punch, do 78.5% - 93.1%, which is a clean kill with Stealth Rock. Of course, that is with 0 Evs in attack, so you can always use the remaining 156 (100 hp, 252 spe) Evs on Attack, going for the OHKO without Sr, or invest more in SpA to deal more with Thunderbolt.
I agree with people above saying how salamence messes up team building. Would anyone here actually run a frailer base 110+ scarfer if salamence wasn't such a threat? No, you would run a base 100 like flygon, who also makes a good scout and can switch in alot, because all you need to outspeed is gyarados, dragonite, and agilitygross/empoleon. Salamence can't be countered. By that I mean there is nothing that can switch into any of its attacks and reliably force it out/KO it. You could switch your wall into a dracometeor and then have salamence escape. You just never know. Outrage locking is really risked because a +1 outrage can 2HKO some steels that have taken a little damage from SR or spikes.
And for the person above, what happens if your jirachi was weakened? You switch into SR twice and there goes your counter. What if you switch in on dracometeor? You lose 40% of your health and they can tell it's scarfed. It does take out salamence, but not reliably.
And for the person above, what happens if your jirachi was weakened? You switch into SR twice and there goes your counter. What if you switch in on dracometeor? You lose 40% of your health and they can tell it's scarfed. It does take out salamence, but not reliably.
But can Jirachi switch in again if Mence decides to switch out to Heatran or something that could counter Jirachi? If it were a proper "counter" it should be able to come in more than once and survive anything Salamence can throw at it.
EDIT: Eggbert beat me to it. What happens if all you do is force Salamence to switch? You've just wasted Jirachi.
Oh god I laughed so much at this, maybe its the voice Latias was using in my head I dont know but oh damn....
Anyways on to Salamence.
I think its fair he gets the suspect treatment, he's an extremely dangerous pokemon with huge versetality.
What some people here seem to forget is that suspect does not equal uber.
Having an argument about whatever he is OU or Uber is fine but please dont go apeshit and cry "OMG SALAMENCE SHOULDNT BE UBER OH MY GOD YOU IDIOTS!" He's not Uber yet and there's a chance he'll never be.
One thing is sure though, I wouldn't mind him being banned as I wouldnt have to see his ugly face anymore.
ps: I did exaggerate the whining part a tiny bit.
Salamence is physically bulkier, faster, and more powerful both physically and specially. Salamence doesn't need to Intimidate switch ins, it just needs to Intimidate what it's switching into to kill it.
The only reliable way to get rid of Salamence is to limit the number of kills it gets with Stealth Rock. That's pretty ridiculous.
Dragonite is the bulkier one(without Intimidate), in both defenses. The attack difference between the two is negligible.
You do know that Dragonite's Outrage is as strong as Mence's, right? As long as we go by the "nothing can switch in" argument, Dragonite gets all the KOes Salamence does(I think). Choice Band Dragonite literally 2HKOes everything in OU. Bulky Dragon Dance Dragonite can easily get 2 DDs and sweep everything.
The only reason I can see is that speed difference. However, the fact remains that nothing can switch into Dragonite, just like Mence. Hell, Dragonite even has Extremespeed to get the jump on some faster, frail pokemon.
@jumpluff - lol, I love that comic :)
I'm bored in Spanish class.
Futhermore, base 100 does a lot for Salamence. Assuming the standard DD set (204 Speed EVs), Dragonite is still outsped by a lot of stuff, namely Scarftran, Scarf 100s, Scarf Rotom-A, and Scarf base 90s. No competient player would let you get 2 DDs in order to outspeed base 100s with a Choice Scarf. This allows for a wide veriaty of Pokemon to revenge kill Dragonite. Meanwhile, with Salamence, you're forced to use a Scarf Pokemon with base 100+ (and even then it Speed ties), or Scizor/Mamoswine/Weavile.
inb4adaptingtometagame
Yea, DD Mence is more fragile (unless you're running Lefties Mence like SDS does). However, it's the offensive capabilities that make Salamence so threatening, not the defensive.
I'm neutral on Salamence's stance. I don't care whether it's Uber or not.
Oh, and Salamence is viable in Ubers. Don't give me that shit about how it's not. Base 100 allows it to Speed tie Palkia and Jirachi unlike Rayquaza. Besides, it's not how well they function in Ubers, but rather in OU.
The problem is that Salamence's bulky DD sets aren't what makes it broken, but rather its offensive and mixed sets. I agree with you that bulky Dragonite is better than bulky Salamence (Lucario would ExtremeSpeed either way so running enough to outspeed Lucario is eh). However, the thing with Dragonite's mixed set is that it's not fast enough to take down some threats. If you sacrifice something and bring in a faster Pokemon that can force it out, then you've "beat" it for the moment. However, with Mixmence, the amount of Pokemon that can outspeed it and threaten it is a lot smaller. They risk getting hit before they can get a hit on Salamence first, which might cause them to faint first. This means that you'll have to rely either on priority, something faster than base 100s, or a Speed of Scarf Tyranitar at a minimum. Dragonite is outspeed by Heatran, unboosted Gyarados, fastCune, and base 90s.
Futhermore, base 100 does a lot for Salamence. Assuming the standard DD set (204 Speed EVs), Dragonite is still outsped by a lot of stuff, namely Scarftran, Scarf 100s, Scarf Rotom-A, and Scarf base 90s. No competient player would let you get 2 DDs in order to outspeed base 100s with a Choice Scarf. This allows for a wide veriaty of Pokemon to revenge kill Dragonite. Meanwhile, with Salamence, you're forced to use a Scarf Pokemon with base 100+ (and even then it Speed ties), or Scizor/Mamoswine/Weavile.
inb4adaptingtometagame
Yea, DD Mence is more fragile (unless you're running Lefties Mence like SDS does). However, it's the offensive capabilities that make Salamence so threatening, not the defensive.
Intimidate helps force a switch, especially if Salamence is faster than the opponent. Dragonite can't come in to attacks as easily even with its better overall bulk, as Intimidate gives Salamence more defenive capabilities.
I'm neutral on Salamence's stance. I don't care whether it's Uber or not.
Oh, and Salamence is viable in Ubers. Don't give me that shit about how it's not. Base 100 allows it to Speed tie Palkia and Jirachi unlike Rayquaza. Besides, it's not how well they function in Ubers, but rather in OU.
._.
Blissey is probably dies faster to Outrage than Vivabra with a -Def Nature lol. Nice counter.
and lol @ jumpluff.
^ this
So what if mence moves upto ubers, I wouldn't be surprised to see Dragonite fulfilling mence's place. Current arguments are nothing can safely switch in against mence, so dragonite up for suspect next? o_o
Ever since d/p were released, i thought the whole hard counter thing was left behind in advance. d/p metagame brought an offensive approach, checks/ semi counters were the way to go. Sure mence does not have any real couters, does it have checks there to keep it at bay? I'd say yes.
Intimidate is what lets Salamence switch in. You can't just ignore that. Dragonite is just as easily 1hkoed by all the Ice attacks that 1hko Salamence.
The 20 base speed makes a huge difference. Nearly half of OU is between 80 and 100 base speed. Sure, 13x base Attack + Outrage + Choice Band = 2hko on everything in the game, but unlike Mence, plenty of things can tank that first Outrage and KO back (without needing a Scarf).
Extremespeed is a poor option on both mixed and DD sets because most of the Pokemon coming in on Dragonite are going to be bulky enough to take a hit from it and probably Steel type, and Dragonite isn't fast enough to outspeed Ice Shard users (it usually isn't running max speed anyway).
And what kind of people are you playing that let you get 2 DDs in (and I don't mean at the end of the game once the proper switch-ins have been removed and you probably don't need the second one anyway)? I rarely see anything not named Kingdra or Gyarados get a chance to DD twice without dying. And even those two have trouble doing it.
This is why shoddy 2 needs a pure D/P mode. with no garchomp. no one would complain about outraging mence Even then, it won't be the same
P.S. mence >>>>>>>>> dragonite
Well who could stand up to an argument like that? we might as well give up.
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