Research Scarlet & Violet Battle Mechanics Research

From what I can test, using the move Sandstorm does not activate Wind Power/Wind Rider, nor does switching into Sandstorm cause them to activate. For Tailwind, Wind Rider activates on use and on switch-in, while Wind Power only activates on use.
So it's not actually a Wind move then.
 
So it's not actually a Wind move then.
It could be (assuming it wasn't just an error on bulbapedia's part when making a note for sandsear storm) a wind move internally, but one that can't actually activate anything.

I assume this is something that could be checked if it's a flag.
 

DaWoblefet

Demonstrably so
is a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Community Leaderis a Programmeris a Community Contributoris a Top Researcheris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
PS Admin
Anubis did some research on unclickable moves! By editing the flag associated with a move being clickable, she was able to test the behavior of moves that ordinarily cannot be selected. You can view a short clip compilation here (some behavior described below not recorded).

General observations
  • Every unclickable move plays a generic animation when used (looks to be Pound). This is unlike SwSh, where it required animations turned off.
  • Certain moves do not have associated text assigned to them for [POKEMON] used [MOVE]! In those cases, the area where the move would be announced is blank.
Specific interactions
  • Hail sets the Snow weather.
  • Forest's Curse and Trick-or-Treat can stack their effects on Y-info, but only the most recently given 3rd-typing applies (the latter is identical behavior to Gen 8). Terastallization removes these effects, and a Forest's Curse or Trick-or-Treat used against a Terastallized Pokemon will fail.
  • Heal Block works normally, and Bitter Blade can bypass it (because Bitter Blade lacks the heal flag in move data).
  • Assist fails completely.
  • Pursuit won't attempt to deal extra damage if the target is switching.
  • Sky Drop is a generic 2-turn move.
  • Hacked Max Moves still have 0 BP entering base damage calculation.
So it's not actually a Wind move then.
It has the Wind flag in move data, so it is a Wind move; it just doesn't interact with Wind Power or Wind Rider. It's similar to how Tar Shot is a move flagged as explicitly excluded from hitting twice with Parental Bond. The flag just doesn't do anything because Tar Shot is a status move, and status moves don't hit twice with Parental Bond anyway. The Wind Abilities have additional logic for "must have this particular kind of target", which Sandstorm doesn't happen to meet.
 
This isn't really a "battle mechanics" discovery but it seems like the AI doesn't seem to understand the typing of Revelation Dance super well. While fighting Larry in the Elite Four, I switched in my Pincurchin to take a hit from his Pom-Pom Oricorio for my Lumineon (that tells me the game does, at least, understand that it's super-effective against Water-types in that case). Pincurchin's Lightning Rod ability blocked Revelation Dance. I expected Oricorio to switch to a different attack (after checking its moveset after the fact, I would have expected Icy Wind or Teeter Dance), but instead it kept using Revelation Dance, letting my Pincurchin easily knock it out with two Zing Zaps. Normally trainers pick up on Ability-specific immunities after one interaction so this surprised me.
 
This isn't really a "battle mechanics" discovery but it seems like the AI doesn't seem to understand the typing of Revelation Dance super well. While fighting Larry in the Elite Four, I switched in my Pincurchin to take a hit from his Pom-Pom Oricorio for my Lumineon (that tells me the game does, at least, understand that it's super-effective against Water-types in that case). Pincurchin's Lightning Rod ability blocked Revelation Dance. I expected Oricorio to switch to a different attack (after checking its moveset after the fact, I would have expected Icy Wind or Teeter Dance), but instead it kept using Revelation Dance, letting my Pincurchin easily knock it out with two Zing Zaps. Normally trainers pick up on Ability-specific immunities after one interaction so this surprised me.
I've heard at least one report that NPC trainers basically never play around Gholdengo's Good as Gold ability even after they hit its immunity slew, so don't be too surprised.
 

Anubis

HONK
is a Community Contributoris a Top Researcheris a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
The whole reason I decided to look at removed moves was because I wanted to know what happens if Electrify is used on Psyblade on Electric Terrain. This combination changes the BP modifier to 7988 instead of 6144 for Electric Terrain alone, which is 156 base power.

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 6, 0x00000043238becb8 in ?? ()
$1 = 80
$2 = "base power"
$3 = 7988
$4 = "base power mod"

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 1, 0x00000043238bf8f8 in ?? ()
$5 = 4096
$6 = "attack mod"
$7 = 221
$8 = "attack power before mod"

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 8, 0x00000043238bfc14 in ?? ()
$9 = 221
$10 = "attack power"

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 2, 0x00000043238c03d4 in ?? ()
$11 = 4096
$12 = "defense mod"
$13 = 125
$14 = "defense power before mod"

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 11, 0x00000043238c03e8 in ?? ()
$15 = 125
$16 = "defense power"

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 9, 0x00000043238c03f8 in ?? ()
$17 = 100
$18 = "attacker level"

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 10, 0x00000043238c03fc in ?? ()
$19 = 156
$20 = "move BP"

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 5, 0x00000043238c0a34 in ?? ()
$21 = 4096
$22 = "weather mod"

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 12, 0x00000043238c0a94 in ?? ()

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 4, 0x00000043238c0f30 in ?? ()
$23 = 4096
$24 = "STAB/tera mod"
$25 = 233
$26 = "damage before STAB/tera mod"

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 3, 0x00000043238c1234 in ?? ()
$27 = 4096
$28 = "damage mod"
$29 = 233
$30 = "damage before mod"

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 7, 0x00000043238c1344 in ?? ()
$31 = 233
$32 = "final damage"
 
I've heard at least one report that NPC trainers basically never play around Gholdengo's Good as Gold ability even after they hit its immunity slew, so don't be too surprised.
I've got a Magic Bounce Hatterene and I'm pretty sure I've seen opponents use status moves into it multiple times. Abilities that negate damaging attacks feel like they are usually more easily "observed" by the AI, I guess.

On a different note I just saw AI Turo use Snowscape with Iron Bundle two consecutive times against my Skeledirge. I don't really have an explanation for that one.
 
Last edited:

Fragmented

procrastinating...
is a Pokemon Researcher
Adding on to Cud Chew mechanics, flinging a berry is also considered using it (similar to Harvest), and Cud Chew causes the user to eat the berry every other turn. Neither of the Cud Chew users learn Fling, but you can Trace the ability and get the same result. Using a second berry (I flung another berry at a Farigiraf, don't know if Symbiosis works the same but it should) will restart the Cud Chew chain, this time using the second berry instead of the first. The chain can be broken by switching out or with an Unnerve mon.
 
Adding on to Cud Chew mechanics, flinging a berry is also considered using it (similar to Harvest), and Cud Chew causes the user to eat the berry every other turn. Neither of the Cud Chew users learn Fling, but you can Trace the ability and get the same result. Using a second berry (I flung another berry at a Farigiraf, don't know if Symbiosis works the same but it should) will restart the Cud Chew chain, this time using the second berry instead of the first. The chain can be broken by switching out or with an Unnerve mon.
So a Cud Chew Pokémon Flinging a berry at another Cud Chew Pokemon results in them both re-eating that berry every other turn?
 
In 1.2.0, Cud Chew will activate every other turn after the berry is consumed, until the berry no longer has any effect, at which point Cud Chew will no longer reactivate. This didn't happen in previous versions, so it's so weird that this popped up in 1.2.0

So I assume with stat berries this means they will repeatedly eat it and boost themselves akin to a slower version of Speed Boost (but for any stat). Do we know how this works for berries with more timing-based effects like Weakness reducers or Custap's "Top of Priority" effect (or have a hypothesis based on pre 1.2 behavior)?
 
Hydro Steam isn't a Base Power modifier. It modifies damage through the weather modifier.

The weather modifier (sun) is:
- 4096 for both Pokémon holding umbrella
- 2048 for only the attacker holding umbrella
- 6144 for only the defender holding umbrella
- 6144 for no umbrellas involved

Level 100 Pawmot with 148 SpA using 80 BP Hydro Steam vs 51 SpD Girafarig did 197, 98, and 295 damage for each of the above 3 cases (max damage rolls).

It's also boosted in rain as expected for a water move.

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 1, 0x000000529dcbf8f8 in ?? ()
$487 = 4096
$488 = "attack mod"
$489 = 148
$490 = "attack power before mod"

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 6, 0x000000529dcbfc14 in ?? ()
$491 = 148
$492 = "attack power"

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 2, 0x000000529dcc03d4 in ?? ()
$493 = 4096
$494 = "defense mod"
$495 = 51
$496 = "defense power before mod"

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 9, 0x000000529dcc03e8 in ?? ()
$497 = 51
$498 = "defense power"

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 7, 0x000000529dcc03f8 in ?? ()
$499 = 100
$500 = "attacker level"

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 8, 0x000000529dcc03fc in ?? ()
$501 = 80
$502 = "move BP"

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 11, 0x000000529dcc0a34 in ?? ()
$503 = 2048
$504 = "weather mod"

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 10, 0x000000529dcc0a94 in ?? ()

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 4, 0x000000529dcc0f30 in ?? ()
$505 = 4096
$506 = "STAB/tera mod"
$507 = 98
$508 = "damage before STAB/tera mod"

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 3, 0x000000529dcc1234 in ?? ()
$509 = 4096
$510 = "damage mod"
$511 = 98
$512 = "damage before mod"

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 5, 0x000000529dcc1344 in ?? ()
$513 = 98
$514 = "final damage"
Thread 12 "JobThread1" hit Breakpoint 1, 0x000000529dcbf8f8 in ?? ()
$431 = 4096
$432 = "attack mod"
$433 = 148
$434 = "attack power before mod"

Thread 12 "JobThread1" hit Breakpoint 6, 0x000000529dcbfc14 in ?? ()
$435 = 148
$436 = "attack power"

Thread 12 "JobThread1" hit Breakpoint 2, 0x000000529dcc03d4 in ?? ()
$437 = 4096
$438 = "defense mod"
$439 = 51
$440 = "defense power before mod"

Thread 12 "JobThread1" hit Breakpoint 9, 0x000000529dcc03e8 in ?? ()
$441 = 51
$442 = "defense power"

Thread 12 "JobThread1" hit Breakpoint 7, 0x000000529dcc03f8 in ?? ()
$443 = 100
$444 = "attacker level"

Thread 12 "JobThread1" hit Breakpoint 8, 0x000000529dcc03fc in ?? ()
$445 = 80
$446 = "move BP"

Thread 12 "JobThread1" hit Breakpoint 11, 0x000000529dcc0a34 in ?? ()
$447 = 6144
$448 = "weather mod"

Thread 12 "JobThread1" hit Breakpoint 10, 0x000000529dcc0a94 in ?? ()

Thread 12 "JobThread1" hit Breakpoint 4, 0x000000529dcc0f30 in ?? ()
$449 = 4096
$450 = "STAB/tera mod"
$451 = 295
$452 = "damage before STAB/tera mod"

Thread 12 "JobThread1" hit Breakpoint 3, 0x000000529dcc1234 in ?? ()
$453 = 4096
$454 = "damage mod"
$455 = 295
$456 = "damage before mod"

Thread 12 "JobThread1" hit Breakpoint 5, 0x000000529dcc1344 in ?? ()
$457 = 295
$458 = "final damage"

Psyblade is modifying Base Power by 6144 in Electric Terrain.
Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 11, 0x000000529dcbecb8 in ?? ()
$235 = 80
$236 = "base power"
$237 = 6144
$238 = "base power mod"

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 7, 0x000000529dcbf8f8 in ?? ()
$239 = 4096
$240 = "attack mod"
$241 = 361
$242 = "attack power before mod"

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 2, 0x000000529dcbfc14 in ?? ()
$243 = 361
$244 = "attack power"

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 8, 0x000000529dcc03d4 in ?? ()
$245 = 4096
$246 = "defense mod"
$247 = 19
$248 = "defense power before mod"

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 5, 0x000000529dcc03e8 in ?? ()
$249 = 19
$250 = "defense power"

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 3, 0x000000529dcc03f8 in ?? ()
$251 = 100
$252 = "attacker level"

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 4, 0x000000529dcc03fc in ?? ()
$253 = 120
$254 = "move BP"

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 6, 0x000000529dcc0a94 in ?? ()

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 10, 0x000000529dcc0f30 in ?? ()
$255 = 4096
$256 = "STAB/tera mod"
$257 = 1917
$258 = "damage before STAB/tera mod"

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 9, 0x000000529dcc1234 in ?? ()
$259 = 4096
$260 = "damage mod"
$261 = 1917
$262 = "damage before mod"

Thread 2 "MainThread" hit Breakpoint 1, 0x000000529dcc1344 in ?? ()
$263 = 1917
$264 = "final damage"
I'm sorry that I still don't fully understand the mechanism of Hydro Steam. Is the following understanding correct?

sun
no umbrella 1.5x
attacker umbrella 0.5x
defender umbrella 1.5x
both umbrella 1x

rain
no umbrella 1.5x
attacker umbrella 1.5x
defender umbrella 1x
both umbrella 1x
 

Fragmented

procrastinating...
is a Pokemon Researcher
So a Cud Chew Pokémon Flinging a berry at another Cud Chew Pokemon results in them both re-eating that berry every other turn?
Pretty much, yeah

So I assume with stat berries this means they will repeatedly eat it and boost themselves akin to a slower version of Speed Boost (but for any stat). Do we know how this works for berries with more timing-based effects like Weakness reducers or Custap's "Top of Priority" effect (or have a hypothesis based on pre 1.2 behavior)?
Tested with Colbur, the berry gets consumed as usual when hit by a super-effective move. At the end of the second turn, Cud Chew activates, berry eating animation plays but no message shows up. Two turns later, Cud Chew activates again, animation plays, no message. When I got hit by Crunch later on, there was no damage reduction or berry eating animation, but Farigiraf ate the berry at the end of the turn anyway.

Also, I'm ignorant about this, but apparently when a berry is consumed during battle, it no longer appears as a held item in the Pokemon selection menu but still appears as a held item in the Bag menu. Probably a visual bug, the berry doesn't exist as a held item in battle.

Looking at Test 3 here I'd like to propose a hypothesis that Cud Chew does not activate at all on berries that do nothing.

Try flinging a Pecha on a non-poisoned Farigiraf, then poisoning it the next turn. Does it eat the Pecha again via Cud Chew to cure poison? Does flinging an EV berry proc Cud Chew at all?
Three months late, so the mechanics probably changed as well.
Test 1: Fling Cheri Berry first, then Nuzzle. Cud Chew does not proc.
Test 2: Nuzzle, then Fling Cheri Berry. Para cured. Nuzzle again. Para cured end turn 2. Nothing for next two turns. End of turn 4, nothing happens.
I'm assuming Cud Chew will keep proccing if the user keeps getting status'd. Also tried flinging the EV berry, neither Gardevoir nor Farigiraf had Cud Chew proc.
 
In old gens, iirc, Lustrous, Adamant and Griseous Orb boosted the user's STAB attacks (meaning, if Palkia, Dialga or Giratina changes type via Soak, then the boosted types will change), is this still a thing in gen 9 with their new item? (via Tera, Soak, Conversion, Forest's Curse, etc)
Edit: I might have mistaken them for Soul Dew?
 
Last edited:

DaWoblefet

Demonstrably so
is a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Community Leaderis a Programmeris a Community Contributoris a Top Researcheris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
PS Admin
In old gens, iirc, Lustrous, Adamant and Griseous Orb boosted the user's STAB attacks (meaning, if Palkia, Dialga or Giratina changes type via Soak, then the boosted types will change), is this still a thing in gen 9 with their new item? (via Tera, Soak, Conversion, Forest's Curse, etc)
Those items only boost the specific types listed (i.e. Lustrous Orb and Lustrous Globe only ever boost the base power of Water- and Dragon-type moves). I don't think they've ever done what you've described; it's never depended on the current typing of the Sinnoh trio.
 

DaWoblefet

Demonstrably so
is a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Community Leaderis a Programmeris a Community Contributoris a Top Researcheris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
PS Admin
A recent discovery by SupahSanti shows that if Make it Rain is used into a Substitute and also damages another Pokemon, the Make it Rain user will take 2 -1 Sp. Atk drops. In addition to playing the message twice, the stat drops actually occur twice, resulting in a net -2 Sp. Atk.
As documented in the Twitter thread:
  • It does not matter if Make it Rain breaks the Substitute or not; the user still takes 2 -1 Sp. Atk drops.
  • If two opposing Pokemon have Substitute, the user still takes 2 -1 Sp. Atk drops.
This is extendable to Diamond Storm as well, because they both share the same move group (7, moves that deal damage and change the user's stats). It's very difficult to test this in SV right now (Diamond Storm isn't legal, and no in-game double battles have the opponent set up Substitute), but it does have this behavior in Sword and Shield. With thanks to Bright Size for helping test! Remember that Diamond Storm's behavior changed between Generation 6->7, where it now is supposed to only run 1 chance for a +2 Defense boost, as opposed to Gen 6, where the Diamond Storm user could get a +1 Def boost for every target it hit. I would strongly suspect that if Clanging Scales / Clangorous Soulblaze did not ignore Substitute due to being Sound moves, they also would have this same behavior.
 

LouisIX

UPL Champion
Hi there I have some questions about booster energy
Assume all flutter mane mentioned below is 252 spa 252 speed timid and all 31

when flutter mane with booster energy and koraidon are sent at the same time, what would be determined on the booster energy be consumed or not? Is the speedtie of mane and koraidon matters here?

What is the difference of a flutter mane activating protosyntheis by booster energy and by sun when there is sticky web?

Does quark drive shares the above mechanism, if any?

Thank you very much to whom willing to answer them ☺
 
when flutter mane with booster energy and koraidon are sent at the same time, what would be determined on the booster energy be consumed or not? Is the speedtie of mane and koraidon matters here?
It should be based on speed, if Koraidon goes first, then Sun will go off first, then Protosyntesis will activate, otherwise the Booster Energy will

What is the difference of a flutter mane activating protosyntheis by booster energy and by sun when there is sticky web?
There's no difference on the activation method of protosyntesis / quark drive other than "when" it triggers, I can't remind on top off my mind which order they go off but, if Sticky Web stat drop happens before the ability, then the ability will raise its spatk, otherwise its speed (assuming speed is higher in first place).
Was similarly shown somewhere earlier in the thread that if a Intimidate is faster than the paradox user, and they swap in at same time, Intimidate goes off first, then the ability, which would result for example in Iron Hands getting its defenses boosted instead of attack.

Does quark drive shares the above mechanism, if any?
Afaik Quark Drive and Protosyntesis share exactly same mechanisms other than the activation method (presence of Sun / Electric Terrain respectively)
 

LouisIX

UPL Champion
There's no difference on the activation method of protosyntesis / quark drive other than "when" it triggers, I can't remind on top off my mind which order they go off but, if Sticky Web stat drop happens before the ability, then the ability will raise its spatk, otherwise its speed (assuming speed is higher in first place).
The thing is i have encountered situation that when sun / terrain is on, paradox mon will drop their speed first then activate the proto/quark. For example flutter mane will boost spa instead;
And on another battle i met Iron valiant consume is booster energy first to gain speed boost, then sticky web activates and drop the speed stage of valiant.

Dont really understand whats the difference here
 
Tera Pokemon are immune to type changes caused by stuff like protean or soak, right? So if a Pokemon Terastallizes and then uses transform (or activates imposter), does it keep its type or transform into the target's type?
 
It should be based on speed, if Koraidon goes first, then Sun will go off first, then Protosyntesis will activate, otherwise the Booster Energy will
This is a complex question where Koraidon and Flutter Mane are concerned because they will usually speed tie. Does this mean the answer to the question is a coinflip, or is there a consistently reproducible result here?
 

DarkFE

Heal Bells ringing
is a Pokemon Researcher
Tera Pokemon are immune to type changes caused by stuff like protean or soak, right? So if a Pokemon Terastallizes and then uses transform (or activates imposter), does it keep its type or transform into the target's type?
A Terastallized Pokemon that uses Transform keeps its active Tera Type instead of copying the target's Type. This is answered in the main post, but that link doesn't have a video so here's one that I posted a few months ago showing the interaction.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 3)

Top