Research Scarlet & Violet Battle Mechanics Research

sumwun said:
Can you confirm a few things that I think I know about gen 9 battle mechanics?
Earth eater doesn't "raise" the Pokemon, so it doesn't provide any immunities besides ground moves, and it keeps working when the Pokemon is "grounded".
Mycelium might doesn't ignore "unignorable" abilities, like full metal body.
Terastal Pokemon get STAB for whatever types they had immediately before Terastallizing, so if their type was changed, they don't get STAB for their original type(s).
Terastal Pokemon are immune to type changes.

If a Pokemon with adaptability Terastallizes into a different type, does adaptability work for moves of the type(s) it had before Terastallizing?
If a Pokemon with adaptability Terastallizes into a type it already has, what is its STAB boost? I know this was asked before, but I think the answer used Showdown!'s damage calculator, and I just want to make sure the calculator is accurate.
Click to expand...
The original Adaptability post I wrote can be found here, but it was kind of hard to understand so I'm going to make a new post.

Level 49 Basculin (100 SpAtk) vs Level 57 Girafarig (75 SpDef)

44/154 (110)
53/154 (101)
55/154 (99)
55/154 (99)
39/154 (115)
39/154 (115)
48/154 (106)
53/154 (101)

56/154 (98)
64/154 (90)
68/154 (86)
62/154 (92)
52/154 (102)
52/154 (102)
56/154 (98)
64/154 (90)

Lvl 49 12 SpA Basculin Surf vs. Lvl 57 0 HP / 0- SpD Girafarig: 88-104 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (88, 88, 90, 90, 92, 92, 94, 94, 96, 96, 98, 98, 100, 100, 102, 104)

Tera Water + Adaptability does more damage than just Adaptability, though by how much is hard to say (I originally suggested 2.25x STAB multiplier, which would be 9216/4096 I think).


Level 75 Dragalage (173 SpAtk) vs Level 58 Garganacl (122 SpDef)

47/191 (144)
57/191 (134)
61/191 (130)
43/191 (148)
49/191 (142)
63/191 (128)

Neutral Rolls according to damage calc (No Tera, No Adaptability, No STAB):

Lvl 75 0 SpA Dragalge Tera Blast vs. Lvl 58 0 HP / 0 SpD Garganacl: 60-71 (31.4 - 37.1%) -- 81.1% chance to 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (60, 61, 61, 62, 63, 63, 64, 65, 66, 66, 67, 68, 68, 69, 70, 71)

Rolls with STAB + Adaptability:

Lvl 75 0 SpA Dragalge Tera Blast vs. Lvl 58 0 HP / 0 SpD Garganacl: 120-142 (62.8 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (120, 122, 122, 124, 126, 126, 128, 130, 132, 132, 134, 136, 136, 138, 140, 142)

For the test with Tera Fairy Tera Blast, the rolls obtained from the test is 2 x the damage calc rolls, suggesting that, Adaptability does boost moves that correspond to the user's Tera type.

*crit* 14/191 (177) - 1.5 x 118
*crit* 23/191 (168) - 1.5 x 112
82/191 (109)
79/191 (112)
73/191 (118)
82/191 (109)
83/191 (108)
88/191 (103)

I left the crit values in since they corresponded to existing damage rolls.

Non-Adaptabilty STAB (from damage calc):

Lvl 75 0 SpA Dragalge Dragon Pulse vs. Lvl 58 0 HP / 0 SpD Garganacl: 96-114 (50.2 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (96, 97, 99, 99, 100, 102, 103, 103, 105, 106, 108, 108, 109, 111, 112, 114)

35/191 (156)
57/191 (134)
35/191 (156)
51/191 (140)
35/191 (156)
39/191 (152)
57/191 (134)
49/191 (142)

Adaptability STAB:

Lvl 75 0 SpA Dragalge Dragon Pulse vs. Lvl 58 0 HP / 0 SpD Garganacl: 128-152 (67 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (128, 130, 132, 132, 134, 136, 138, 138, 140, 142, 144, 144, 146, 148, 150, 152)

Adaptability Tera Fairy Dragon Pulse were noticeably weaker than regular Adaptability Dragon Pulse. Comparing the results of Adaptability Tera Fairy with damage calc rolls, it appears that Adaptability does not boost moves of the user's original type (i.e. they get normal STAB multiplier).

tl,dr;
  • Tera + Adaptability boosts damage more than regular Adaptability
  • Adaptability boosts moves of user's Tera type
  • Adaptability does not boosts moves of user's original type when Tera'd
 
Fragmented said:
Tera Water + Adaptability does more damage than just Adaptability, though by how much is hard to say (I originally suggested 2.25x STAB multiplier, which would be 9216/4096 I think).
Click to expand...

You're right on this value, by the way! I saw this a few days ago and had to ask what causes Tera STAB to be upgraded from 8192 to 9216, because I am bad at Pokémon and forgot it existed.
1670431712504.png
 
Some questions:
Since Mold Breaker can be negated by Ability Shield, I take it that it also prevents user's ability from being disabled in some interactions. Then does Ability Shield:
  • allow the user with Orichalcum Pulse to ignore opposing Air Lock/Cloud Nine (Still gain 4/3 boost)? Maybe Sand Force and Solar Power as well?
  • allow the user's contact abilities like Iron Barbs, Rough Skin or Static to go through Protective Pads, Punching Glove, Long Reach andMagic Guard?
  • make user's abilities like Emergency Exit or Berserk activate against foe's Sheer Force-boosted attack?
  • cancel each other if like say, a Mold Breaker using a Fire move against a Flash Fire Pokemon and both have Ability Shield?
  • protect user's Dark/Fairy Aura from Aura Break?
  • make Mold Breaker go through Shadow Shield?
  • allow user's Stench to flinch Inner Focus Pokemon?
  • affect user's or ally's moves? In particular, a user with Soundproof and Ability Shield uses Howl when there's Neutralizing Gas? Or ally with Mold Breaker uses Howl.
  • interact with either user's or foe's Wandering Spirit?
  • 's effect wear off when user faints? Meaning Aftermath from a Pokemon can't activate against Neutralizing Gas.
Does Loaded Dice affect Beat Up?
Does Punching Glove stack with Tough Claws?
Are Ruin abilities affected by Aura Break considering they are auras?
Does Tatsugiri need to recharge if it uses Hyper Beam then Commander activates? Does Commander activate if it's invulnerable while using Dive? Can it be hit by No Guard or an ally Dondozo's Jungle Healing, Coaching or other moves that target ally? Can a trapped Dondozo use No Retreat multiple times this way? Does any counter like Sleep or Taunt change during this time? I suppose Blunder Policy should activate if they miss Tatsugiri this way?
Does Cud Chew activate if user eats berry then gets suppressed by Gastro Acid and vice versa? Does it activate if user eats a berry via Bug Bite?
Does Mycelium Might stack with Lagging Tail to always outslow opposing Pokemon with only Lagging Tail/Mycelium Might? If the Pokemon uses Sleep Talk/ Copycat, does the resulting attack go through abilities?
Does user benefit from Orichalcum Pulse if it has Utility Umbrella? Same for Hadron Engine with Air Balloon.
Does Purifying Salt make user's Rest fail like Vital Spirit? Does it instantly cure the user against a Mold Breaker user (if it can even be affected)?
Does Thermal Exchange work against Will-O-Wisp (get the boost)? If foe has Mold Breaker, does it cure itself (if it can even be affected)?
Can Opportunist and Mirror Herb take crit stages?
Is Glaive Rush's after effect like No Guard or user can still dodge hits like invulnerable turn or Tatsugiri? Do future attacks gain double damage on the next turn?
Is there any chance Chloroblast is affected by Sun or Chlorophyll?
Does Infernal Parade deal double damage to Comatose? I guess this can apply to Hex as well?
Does Salt Cure Effect wear off after using Substitute, Baton Pass or Rapid Spin?
Does Stuff Cheeks work with Cud Chew (getting Def boosts twice)?
Does Tera 60 BP lower limit affect moves that get lowered BP (Like due to Rivalry and Aura Break + Dark Aura/Fairy Aura)? What about Beat Up (both 1 hit and multihit considering Beat Up isn't exactly a traditional multihit move) and moves affected by Parental Bond?
Does Tera stay intact and work like normal on a revived Pokemon?
Is the secondary effect chance overflow still a thing?
 
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longhiep341 said:
Some questions:
Since Mold Breaker can be negated by Ability Shield, I take it that it also prevents user's ability from being disabled in some interactions. Then does Ability Shield:
  • allow the user with Orichalcum Pulse to ignore opposing Air Lock/Cloud Nine (Still gain 4/3 boost)? Maybe Sand Force and Solar Power as well?
  • allow the user's contact abilities like Iron Barbs, Rough Skin or Static to go through Protective Pads, Punching Glove, Long Reach andMagic Guard?
  • make user's abilities like Emergency Exit or Berserk activate against foe's Sheer Force-boosted attack?
  • cancel each other if like say, a Mold Breaker using a Fire move against a Flash Fire Pokemon and both have Ability Shield?
  • protect user's Dark/Fairy Aura from Aura Break?
  • make Mold Breaker go through Shadow Shield?
  • allow user's Stench to flinch Inner Focus Pokemon?
  • affect user's or ally's moves? In particular, a user with Soundproof and Ability Shield uses Howl when there's Neutralizing Gas? Or ally with Mold Breaker uses Howl.
  • interact with either user's or foe's Wandering Spirit?
  • 's effect wear off when user faints? Meaning Aftermath from a Pokemon can't activate against Neutralizing Gas.
Does Loaded Dice affect Beat Up?
Does Punching Glove stack with Tough Claws?
Are Ruin abilities affected by Aura Break considering they are auras?
Does Tatsugiri need to recharge if it uses Hyper Beam then Commander activates? Does Commander activate if it's invulnerable while using Dive? Can it be hit by No Guard or an ally Dondozo's Jungle Healing, Coaching or other moves that target ally? Can a trapped Dondozo use No Retreat multiple times this way? Does any counter like Sleep or Taunt change during this time? I suppose Blunder Policy should activate if they miss Tatsugiri this way?
Does Cud Chew activate if user eats berry then gets suppressed by Gastro Acid?
Does Mycelium Might stack with Lagging Tail to always outslow opposing Pokemon with only Lagging Tail/Mycelium Might?
Does user benefit from Orichalcum Pulse if it has Utility Umbrella? Same for Hadron Engine with Air Balloon.
Does Purifying Salt make user's Rest fail like Vital Spirit? Does it instantly cure the user against a Mold Breaker user?
Does Thermal Exchange work against Will-O-Wisp?
Will add things here later
Does Tera 60 BP lower limit affect moves that get lowered BP (Like due to Rivalry and Aura Break + Dark Aura/Fairy Aura)? What about Beat Up (both 1 hit and multihit considering Beat Up isn't exactly a traditional multihit move) and moves affected by Parental Bond?
Does Tera stay intact and work like normal on a revived Pokemon?
Click to expand...
I can answer some of these for certain:
  • When a Pokémon faints, its Terastallization ends and isn’t restored when the Pokémon is revived.
  • Beat Up does not get the boost up to 60 BP from Terastal even when it can only hit once.
  • Utility Umbrella does prevent Orihalcum Pulse from boosting the holder’s attack, although it doesn’t stop the ability from activating in sun and claiming that it boosts anyway. (Protosynthesis is entirely unaffected by Utility Umbrella.)
I’m also very sure that Tatsugiri avoids all moves while commanding, including moves Dondozo uses on it, though I haven’t seen any examples of those specific kinds of targeting. I wonder if Haze works on it…
 
pika pal said:
Bulbapedia says Terastalizing nullifies Protean's effect, but does that mean "your current type is overridden" or "Protean cannot change a Terastalized Pokemon's type at all"? I never trust early-day Wiki info, much less wording, at face value.
Click to expand...
Multiple sources have told me that Terastal Pokemon are immune to all type changes. Unfortunately, none of those sources are in-game tests.
 
pyuk said:
Utility Umbrella does prevent Orihalcum Pulse from boosting the holder’s attack, although it doesn’t stop the ability from activating in sun and claiming that it boosts anyway. (Protosynthesis is entirely unaffected by Utility Umbrella.)
Click to expand...
What about Air Balloon and Hadron Engine? I assume Quark Drive is similarly unaffected because otherwise Iron Jugulis would be screwed.
 
I mean the terrain seeds still proc on the associated terrain even if the holder is Flying (hi, Hawlucha), so I can't imagine the game would nullify that specific boost.
 
So I doubt this has any actual competitive implications (e.g., attract) and is probably just a visual glitch, but I noticed that when hyper-training the stat select menu listed every gender-unknown pokemon I checked (paradoxes, gholdengo) as female. At least a couple of posters on reddit also had this happen.

Again, I assume this is just a visual glitch where the hyper training menu defaults to the female icon instead of nothing, but it would be funny if this actually allowed them to be attracted or boosted rivalry.
 
DrPumpkinz said:
What about Air Balloon and Hadron Engine? I assume Quark Drive is similarly unaffected because otherwise Iron Jugulis would be screwed.
Click to expand...
Abilities/items that care about terrain don't care if the user is grounded or not, this applies to Surge Surfer, Hadron Engine, Quark Drive, and the terrain seeds.
RocketSurgery said:
So I doubt this has any actual competitive implications (e.g., attract) and is probably just a visual glitch, but I noticed that when hyper-training the stat select menu listed every gender-unknown pokemon I checked (paradoxes, gholdengo) as female. At least a couple of posters on reddit also had this happen.

Again, I assume this is just a visual glitch where the hyper training menu defaults to the female icon instead of nothing, but it would be funny if this actually allowed them to be attracted or boosted rivalry.
Click to expand...
It's a visual glitch relating to how genderless Pokémon are handled in the code. It's a single flag that's set to true if male and false if female, the genderlessness is an override handled elsewhere based on the Pokémon's species. This is literally how it's worked since at least gen 5 (in my personal experience), so probably it's been the case since gen 4, likely even gen 3.
 
So we already knew in previous games there were moves internally implemented as being affected by opposing Pressure even if they don't explicitly target the Pokemon that has Pressure. These were Imprison, Snatch, and the hazard-setting moves, except notably Sticky Web was never added to the list. In Scarlet/Violet these moves are newly flagged in the move data, and it's the same set of moves as before (still no Sticky Web), plus Tera Blast.

Sure enough, Skill Swapping Pressure onto Ryme's Banette and targeting her Mimikyu with Tera Blast has it lose 2 PP. Targeting your own ally with Tera Blast has it lose 2 PP if an opposing Pokemon has Pressure too. Thanks, Game Freak.
 
Marty said:
So we already knew in previous games there were moves internally implemented as being affected by opposing Pressure even if they don't explicitly target the Pokemon that has Pressure. These were Imprison, Snatch, and the hazard-setting moves, except notably Sticky Web was never added to the list. In Scarlet/Violet these moves are newly flagged in the move data, and it's the same set of moves as before (still no Sticky Web), plus Tera Blast.

Sure enough, Skill Swapping Pressure onto Ryme's Banette and targeting her Mimikyu with Tera Blast has it lose 2 PP. Targeting your own ally with Tera Blast has it lose 2 PP if an opposing Pokemon has Pressure too. Thanks, Game Freak.
Click to expand...
Oh THAT'S what that is lmao I was so confused as to what that flag could mean. So many minor game interactions that I didn't know about until they were made flags.
 
mattgcn said:
Oh THAT'S what that is lmao I was so confused as to what that flag could mean. So many minor game interactions that I didn't know about until they were made flags.
Click to expand...
My bad, I named the new flags but tried to be succinct so they'd reasonably fit in with the rest. When I update the OP (eventually...) I'll list them all with what they mean in more detail.
 
UltiMario said:
Wanted to mess around with this a bit.
Adamant, Lustrous, and Griseous Orb no longer form change them. It's now Adamant Crystal, Lustrous Globe, and Griseous Core that do.

The Origins can be hacked to hold other items. They retain the full effects of those items. They can trick items, even their "new Orbs." They don't transform mid-battle if they lose their Orbs. You can Knock Off them as well. Fling fails, though.

Not relevant for Smogon, but changing to a different item in the overworld in Origin will revert them to altered, even if they weren't holding their transformation item. Giving them their proper item while in Origin form and holding a hacked item keeps them in Origin form, no transformation animations required.
Click to expand...
What about the BP boosts the Orbs gave? Do they still do that, and do the new items also give similar boosts?
 
Anubis said:
You're right on this value, by the way! I saw this a few days ago and had to ask what causes Tera STAB to be upgraded from 8192 to 9216, because I am bad at Pokémon and forgot it existed.
View attachment 472122
Click to expand...
So, what's the multiplier for Adaptability when Terastalizing, but with non-matching Tera STAB? Like a Fire-type move on Tera Fire, when the Pokémon isn't already Fire-type.
 
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awesomelink234 said:
So, what's the multiplier for Adaptability when Terastalizing, but with non-matching Tera STAB? Like a Fire-type move on Tera Fire, when the Pokémon isn't already Fire-type.
Click to expand...
It's still 2 times, basically just regular Adaptability boost for the new type.
 
I'm just answering the questions that I can reasonably test by myself.

longhiep341 said:
Some questions:
Since Mold Breaker can be negated by Ability Shield, I take it that it also prevents user's ability from being disabled in some interactions. Then does Ability Shield:
  • allow the user with Orichalcum Pulse to ignore opposing Air Lock/Cloud Nine (Still gain 4/3 boost)? Maybe Sand Force and Solar Power as well?
  • allow the user's contact abilities like Iron Barbs, Rough Skin or Static to go through Protective Pads, Punching Glove, Long Reach andMagic Guard?
  • make user's abilities like Emergency Exit or Berserk activate against foe's Sheer Force-boosted attack?
  • cancel each other if like say, a Mold Breaker using a Fire move against a Flash Fire Pokemon and both have Ability Shield?
  • protect user's Dark/Fairy Aura from Aura Break?
  • make Mold Breaker go through Shadow Shield?
  • allow user's Stench to flinch Inner Focus Pokemon?
  • affect user's or ally's moves? In particular, a user with Soundproof and Ability Shield uses Howl when there's Neutralizing Gas? Or ally with Mold Breaker uses Howl.
  • interact with either user's or foe's Wandering Spirit?
  • 's effect wear off when user faints? Meaning Aftermath from a Pokemon can't activate against Neutralizing Gas.
Does Loaded Dice affect Beat Up?
Does Punching Glove stack with Tough Claws?
Are Ruin abilities affected by Aura Break considering they are auras?
Does Tatsugiri need to recharge if it uses Hyper Beam then Commander activates? Does Commander activate if it's invulnerable while using Dive? Can it be hit by No Guard or an ally Dondozo's Jungle Healing, Coaching or other moves that target ally? Can a trapped Dondozo use No Retreat multiple times this way? Does any counter like Sleep or Taunt change during this time? I suppose Blunder Policy should activate if they miss Tatsugiri this way?
Does Cud Chew activate if user eats berry then gets suppressed by Gastro Acid? Does it activate if user eats a berry via Bug Bite?
Does Mycelium Might stack with Lagging Tail to always outslow opposing Pokemon with only Lagging Tail/Mycelium Might?
Does user benefit from Orichalcum Pulse if it has Utility Umbrella? Same for Hadron Engine with Air Balloon.
Does Purifying Salt make user's Rest fail like Vital Spirit? Does it instantly cure the user against a Mold Breaker user?
Does Thermal Exchange work against Will-O-Wisp? If foe has Mold Breaker, does it cure itself?
Can Opportunist and Mirror Herb take crit stages?
Is Glaive Rush's after effect like No Guard or user can still dodge hits like invulnerable turn or Tatsugiri? Do future attacks gain double damage on the next turn?
Is there any chance Chloroblast is affected by Sun or Chlorophyll?
Does Infernal Parade deal double damage to Comatose? I guess this can apply to Hex as well?
Does Salt Cure Effect wear off after using Substitute, Baton Pass or Rapid Spin?
Does Stuff Cheeks work with Cud Chew (getting Def boosts twice)?
Does Tera 60 BP lower limit affect moves that get lowered BP (Like due to Rivalry and Aura Break + Dark Aura/Fairy Aura)? What about Beat Up (both 1 hit and multihit considering Beat Up isn't exactly a traditional multihit move) and moves affected by Parental Bond?
Does Tera stay intact and work like normal on a revived Pokemon?
Is the secondary effect chance overflow still a thing?
Click to expand...

Does Air Balloon prevent Quark Drive?
- No, Quark Drive still boosts an Air Balloon user in Electric Terrain.

Does Purifying Salt make user's Rest fail like Vital Spirit?
- Yes, Rest Fails.

Does it instantly cure the user against a Mold Breaker user?
- No, Rest Fails.

Does Mycelium Might stack with Lagging Tail to always outslow opposing Pokemon with only Lagging Tail/Mycelium Might?
- Level 38 Lagging Tail Mycelium Might Toedscruel (92 Speed) used Supersonic before Level 32 Mycelium Might Toedscool (64 Speed max) used Screech. Probably does not stack, though which one is active over the other is hard to say from initial testing.

Does Ability Shield allow user's Stench to flinch Inner Focus Pokemon?
- No, tried with Stench Skuntank against Inner Focus Girafarig 18 times, no flinches. This makes sense as Ability Shield prevents your ability from being affected by external sources, not that it will ignore the effects of other abilities.

Does Ability Shield allow the user with Orichalcum Pulse to ignore opposing Air Lock/Cloud Nine (Still gain 4/3 boost)?
- Doesn't seem like it, Orihalcum Pulse message played but Flamethrower and Flame Charge still did similar damage. What happened probably was that sun was set up and the boost was initially activated, but Cloud Nine removes the effect of sun, which also removes the boost.

Does Cud Chew activate if user eats berry then gets suppressed by Gastro Acid? Does it activate if user eats a berry via Bug Bite?
- Flung Sitrus Berry at Farigiraf, use Gastro Acid afterwards, did not eat sitrus Berry a second time.

Does Thermal Exchange work against Will-O-Wisp? If foe has Mold Breaker, does it cure itself?
- User cannot get burnt, even against a foe with Mold Breaker.

Purifying Salt and Thermal Exchange don't seem to be abilities that are affected by Mold Breaker.
 
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If Supreme Overlord becomes suppressed by Neutralizing Gas and then becomes unsuppressed after its ally in doubles has fainted, does it reactivate with an updated faint count?
 
uncertain if this has been documented yet, but i stumbled ln an interesting bit on Quark Drive (which is presumably also the case for Protosynthesis): the stat that is heightened takes increases and decreases into account.

In my case, I took an Iron Hands, freshly captured, into a Salamence raid. Salamence's Intimidate lowered Iron Hands' attack, and I set up Electric Terrain turn 1. Quark Drive then boosted Defense.

Later in the battle, I fainted and came back, with Electric Terrain in play. This time, Quark Drive boosted my Attack! I don't have video proof at the moment, but I can recreate it if need be.
 
If Tatsugiri hides in Dondozo's mouth with Commander, is it affected by any other conditions it already suffers like Poison? Also, at what point does hiding in Dondozo's mouth occur: Immediately on entering the field (presumably after hazards), end of a turn where it's not swallowed, beginning of next, etc?
 
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