Separate Tiering of Mega Pokemon

[Rowan]

the problem with the system we have now, is that we ban the items, not the pokemon. therefore, kanghaskan is allowed in NU, whilst charizard isn't allowed in NU even though they are both pokemon that have a significantly stronger mega evolution.

the way we have it now, if OU suddenly decides that kanghaskan, or mawile deserve a retest, it unsettles the lower tier for no reason. If UU ever decides mega pidgeot/gallage/medicham or whatever is fine again, then RU/NU get unsettled a lot. Or even if any of the BL megas move to OU, all the lower tiers get fucked up. Medicham could move to OU if it got an extra 0.5% usage, which would affect RU for no reason.

The solution, in my opinion, is to either ban pokemon (ban kanghaskan + mawile, not their items), to remain consistent. Or, let non-mega formes be allowed in lower tiers. I am fine with both of these options, slight preference for the latter, but I do think one of them should be picked.

I don't get why not letting mega formes drop below their base is such a bad thing - it's not a difficult concept to grasp, and the reason we'd do it is pretty self explanatory. No-one is gonna get too confused about why Metagross is UU, yet Mega Garchomp isn't. It's obvious. If we were to tier separately, this rule is the way to go, not more complex rules like 'you can use the pokemon as long as it's holding its mega stone'.

 

[tennisace]

Ubers isn't a usage-based tier. It's more like letting Blissey (which can also be an itemless Chansey in our alternate universe) drop down to UU because Eviolite Chansey is OU.

Seriously, does anyone seriously think that, for instance, Mega Latios is okay for UU but itemless Latios is too strong?

Chansey and Blissey are two entirely different species though. A better example would be letting an itemless Milotic into RU because "it would be fine"; yes, technically it wouldn't be broken but it's still a complete departure from our entire tiering philosophy, just because we subjectively think it would be ok in a lower tier. It's not that I think itemless Latios is too strong but Mega Latios isn't, it's that you cannot have a Mega Latios (or really, better example is Alakazam) in UU without having an OU Pokemon allowed in UU.

What's illogical is banning mega stones in the first place. Honestly, if you'd banned Kangaskhan to Ubers, I would've been fine with that. But banning Kangaskhanite only is like banning Speed Boost only on a Blaziken.

Either megas are the same pokemon as their base form, or they aren't. If they're the same pokemon, ban Kangaskhan. If they're not, tier them differently.

What is so bad about banning the item? We ban items when they're broken on every Pokemon that can make use of them. We've done this with Soul Dew since gen 4 (when Latias was briefly allowed). It's not like banning Speed Boost on Blaziken at all; you aren't cherry picking one specific Pokemon in one specific situation. You're essentially banning a form.

Banning the Pokemon outright reduces the number of available Pokemon. Separating Megas from Base forms assumes that they're separate Pokemon, which they are not. By just banning the item, we achieve the goal of allowing base forms in lower tiers when their mega is overpowered, while not violating our "usage drives tiering" philosophy.

No-one is gonna get too confused about why Metagross is UU, yet Mega Garchomp isn't. It's obvious. If we were to tier separately, this rule is the way to go, not more complex rules like 'you can use the pokemon as long as it's holding its mega stone'.

It's obvious how? Garchomp is OU by usage and therefore its mega is OU by usage? Metagross is also OU by usage but it can be used in UU because... its mega is OU by usage?

 

[PK Gaming]

This is a pretty messy solution for a problem that doesn't need solving.

1) There is no "should". There is never a should when it comes to usage based tiering. Umbreon and Electivire "should" have been UU in DP, but they were OU. Jolteon and Infernape "should" have been UU in BW, but they were OU, and so on. You can find countless of cases of Pokemon being screwed out of particular tier due to the usage based system. It's unfortunate, but it's something we've always dealt with, and I don't see why that should change now.

2) A Mega Pokemon is intrinsically tied to its base form. There is no Mega Charizard Y without Charizard. There is no Mega Manectric without Manectric. The idea that you can just count a Pokemon holding a Mega stone as a Mega Pokemon is completely asinine. Because until that particular Pokemon actually switches into the field and mega evolves, it's in its base form. Let me put it into perspective: When Garchomp with its Mega stone switches into the field to take an incoming attack, you are using Garchomp with its Mega stone, not Mega Garchomp. It is impossible to make a Pokemon Mega Evolve as you switch in, which is why I can't consider them to be separate Pokemon in good faith.

3)

A Mega Pokemon is a Pokemon holding a Mega Stone, no more and no less.

Eviolite Chansey/Doublade/Togetic/Porygon2/Gligar/etc are not tiered separately from the same Pokemon holding any other item, even though Eviolite provides a massive effective boost to their stats, and thus their viability, with no drawback.

I don't believe that the forme change is nearly as significant as the OP says, and so I see no reason to make such an important distinction for Mega Stones.

This post right here. The gains are significantly higher in the mega stone's case, but the underlying concept is the same.

4) The net benefit to implementing this system is miniscule. Seriously, you end up freeing infinitesimally small amount of Pokemon for a couple of tiers at most, but also end up making the ruleset needlessly complex. This thread is living proof of that.

No, it's not. Just autodisqualify anyone who doesn't immediately mega. This is literally how sleep clause works on cartridge.

Putting aside the fact that there are strategic reasons for not mega evolving immediately, this solution is completely unacceptable. Smogon as a whole cannot enforce such a ludicrous rule in good faith. It would look very bad for us.

 

[Rowan]

tennisace, it's more obvious than 'why can I use Kanghaskan in NU, but not Charizard, when they both suck enough for NU?' in my opinion.
Smogon's tiering system has a lot of concepts that aren't so easy to grasp, e.g. why ubers is a banlist and not a tier above OU, and why we do our tiers by usage in the first place. The amount of posts I see by Antar in the usage threads explaining that moving up isn't the same as 'banning' shows this. A simple rule saying, 'A mega-Pokemon cannot be tiered below its base form' is very simplistic. You can even add an extra sentence, 'This is because a mega-Pokemon is impossible to use without sending out the base form first.' 2 simple sentences is all the explanation takes.

4) The net benefit to implementing this system is miniscule. Seriously, you end up freeing infinitesimally small amount of Pokemon for a couple of tiers at most, but also end up making the ruleset needlessly complex. This thread is living proof of that.

What about the fact that I raised in my post that the current way we do things has potential to unsettle lower tiers. For example, if Medicham moved to OU, and suddenly RU/UU have been affected by the loss of regular Medicham. Why unsettle tiers for no reason? It's not just that the lower tiers want more toys to play with, it's that tiering them together, yet only banning mega stones can cause lower tiers to drastically unsettle for no reason. This is why if we were to tier them together, then the Pokemon should be banned and not the mega-stone.

 

[Antar]

1) There is no "should". There is never a should when it comes to usage based tiering. Umbreon and Electivire "should" have been UU in DP, but they were OU. Jolteon and Infernape "should" have been UU in BW, but they were OU, and so on. You can find countless of cases of Pokemon being screwed out of particular tier due to the usage based system. It's unfortunate, but it's something we've always dealt with, and I don't see why that should change now.

Funny. I've invested quite a lot of effort in devising a system for Gen VI that makes the tiers closer to what they "should" be. #HitmonchanInNU

Re: Eviolite Pokemon or Zen Mode Darmanitan or Relic Song Meloetta -- I'd argue that a differentiating feature is that these are all reversible processes (by Knock Off or recovery or repeated use). Again, I think that the "we need to be consistent" argument is the weakest. Mega Evolution is a completely new mechanic, and we have no obligation to act as if it's not.

4) The net benefit to implementing this system is miniscule. Seriously, you end up freeing infinitesimally small amount of Pokemon for a couple of tiers at most

Just skimming the list here...

• Metagross was a staple of UU before Mega-M got release
• UU would also appreciate having Alakazam back
• RU happily accepted Gallade back into its life once Mega-G fell out of OU and Galladite was banned

Go through the list. There are very few Pokemon on it that weren't viable in ANY metagame. And the list is not "minuscule."

making the ruleset needlessly complex.

Needlessly complex to those of us arguing. To the average player, the concept of tiering mega stones by usage and allowing non-Megas in lower tiers than their Megas is pretty intuitive.

Yes, it's true that we've never tiered items before by usage. But we've also never had Mega stones before. There is no such thing as precedent.

Putting aside the fact that there are strategic reasons for not mega evolving immediately, this solution is completely unacceptable. Smogon as a whole cannot enforce such a ludicrous rule in good faith. It would look very bad for us.

I agree that forced MEvoing is a dumb idea. The only way to do this is to not allow a MEvo in a tier below its base form (which is fine if we think of it as tiering of items--Garchompite is technically allowed in UU, but with no Garchomp around, it's got no one to use it*).

*Sorry to the folks who've previously stated this argument--I should be quoting you or citing you, but I'm feeling lazy.

 

[tennisace]

tennisace, it's more obvious than 'why can I use Kanghaskan in NU, but not Charizard, when they both suck enough for NU?' in my opinion.
Smogon's tiering system has a lot of concepts that aren't so easy to grasp, e.g. why ubers is a banlist and not a tier above OU, and why we do our tiers by usage in the first place.

a) Because the item itself is Uber and Kangaskhan does not have enough usage in OU, UU, or RU to be considered in any of those tiers. Its a pretty simple explanation.
b) Ubers is a tier, and explaining that our tiers are usage based is also simple.

You can even add an extra sentence, 'This is because a mega-Pokemon is impossible to use without sending out the base form first.'

Which is why the base form's usage is counted, because you cannot have a mega-Pokemon without the base.

What about the fact that I raised in my post that the current way we do things has potential to unsettle lower tiers. For example, if Medicham moved to OU, and suddenly RU/UU have been affected by the loss of regular Medicham. Why unsettle tiers for no reason? It's not just that the lower tiers want more toys to play with, it's that tiering them together, yet only banning mega stones can cause lower tiers to drastically unsettle for no reason. This is why if we were to tier them together, then the Pokemon should be banned and not the mega-stone.

I ignored this argument because you're essentially arguing that shaking up the entirety of our tiering system by dropping a ton of Pokemon into lower tiers all at once is better than the possibility of one pokemon moving up a couple tiers in 3 months. In addition, the bolded part works for both sides of the argument; we can keep going back and forth about the merits of each system but tiers will shift no matter what the outcome of this is, because we have a dynamic tiering system. In fact, I'd argue that Shiftry, Skuntank, and Hitmonchan dropping to NU while Fletchinder and Uxie rising have a much larger effect in a vacuum than Medicham leaving RU would.

 

[Antar]

I ignored this argument because you're essentially arguing that shaking up the entirety of our tiering system by dropping a ton of Pokemon into lower tiers all at once is better than the possibility of one pokemon moving up a couple tiers in 3 months.

That assumes that we're planning on implementing this at a time when the tiers are settled (like now). I could see holding off on implementation until Gen VII.

I will say I've never been comfortable with the precedent we set with the Mawilite ban, where OU banned Mega Mawile and rather than let base Mawile drop every tier update, we just dropped it down to the tier where we thought it belonged, which is exactly contrary to every precedent we've ever set in our tiering*. One thing I really like about this proposal is that we would never have to do that again.

*Hippo/Snover dropping straight to PU post-weather-ban in Gen V was, IIRC, an accidental oversight.

 

[Rowan]

okay that's fair enough with usage point,

but it still applies to any bans or retests. the fact that tiering decisions of the OU council can affect NU quite a lot seems illogical to me. I know they affect them anyway since if something is banned in 1 tier, it bans in tiers below, but for the most part it is pretty much irrelevant because if a pokemon is broken in OU it's almost certainly broken in NU.

also, like antar says, i could see holding off implementation till gen vii

as i have said, the most illogical thing imo is that kanga can be used in NU but charizard can't - of course i understand it, but if you aren't gonna tier megas separately, I believe the entire Pokemon should be banned

 

[tennisace]

I will say I've never been comfortable with the precedent we set with the Mawilite ban, where OU banned Mega Mawile and rather than let base Mawile drop every tier update, we just dropped it down to the tier where we thought it belonged, which is exactly contrary to every precedent we've ever set in our tiering*. One thing I really like about this proposal is that we would never have to do that again.

We waited a full 3 month cycle for it to go from OU -> UU, then another month for it to drop from UU -> RU (where it got less than half a percent usage), then finally another month for it to go from RU -> NU (where it got 1.2% usage). I wouldn't call that dropping it to the tier we thought it belonged, I call it expediting the process. It still dropped because it got minuscule amounts of usage in every tier it stopped in on the way to NU.

Also, this proposal is essentially doing the exact same thing you DON'T want to happen: you're going to drop, say, Charizard to NU because you don't think it should be OU.

but it still applies to any bans or retests. the fact that tiering decisions of the OU council can affect NU quite a lot seems illogical to me. I know they affect them anyway since if something is banned in 1 tier, it bans in tiers below, but for the most part it is pretty much irrelevant because if a pokemon is broken in OU it's almost certainly broken in NU.

UU banned Shadow Tag, Gothorita was fine in NU prior to the ban. A bit off topic but it's not an irrelevant situation, just uncommon.

 

[Antar]

tennisace, you're correct--Mawile had to fall down the slow way, I was misremembering. It's all the others that got placed in the tiers they were before ORAS.

 

[Rowan]

UU banned Shadow Tag, Gothorita was fine in NU prior to the ban. A bit off topic but it's not an irrelevant situation, just uncommon.

this is true, but imo UU shouldn't have banned shadow tag if it affected the lower tiers like that - gothitelle and wobbuffett could have been banned without affecting the other tiers - although a separate issue, I felt I should say this as my argument is that upper councils decisions shouldn't really affect lower tiers where possible

 

[Pocket]

This is the most important question that needs to be answered that I don't think has been yet.

We, in our current tiering model, cannot allow a Mega version in a lower tier if it's base forme gets far more usage to stay in a higher tier, because you can't just start the game with the Mega Pokemon. "Making exceptions" for something like this is also not sufficient in my eyes because then we're just changing our model to place Pokemon in tiers where we think they should be.

I don't have an answer on how to approach this, because I don't think changing our model for tiering Megas is a good idea, but if this change is going to happen, this question is an absolute must to be figured out before going forward.

I pretty much share Antar's POV:

I agree that forced MEvoing is a dumb idea. The only way to do this is to not allow a MEvo in a tier below its base form (which is fine if we think of it as tiering of items--Garchompite is technically allowed in UU, but with no Garchomp around, it's got no one to use it*).

Oglemi, basically we are pushing to have mega stones to be tiered just like Pokemon. The items are the means to transform the Pokemon into a completely different monster, akin to Giratina-O holding a Griseous Orb (except even more drastic). This form change happens in-battle, but unlike other preceding cases (Meloetta-S and Zen Darmanitan) mega evolution is irreversible. One cannot toggle between forms - players have a clearer and greater intent of committing to using the mon as a Mega Pokemon, and not as its base form (not to mention the 100-point increase in base stats clearly implicates a Pokemon evolution)

So cases like Mega Garchomp isn't really an exception or a special case. Garchompite as an item is tiered below OU by usage, and can be used in lower tiers. However, Garchomp use is prohibited, because it has high enough usage to be locked up in OU. It's logically sound, intuitive, and makes no exceptions (because technically Garchompite as an item is playable in lower tiers w/o Garchomp). In the other hand Metagrossite is tiered as an OU item by usage, and thus unplayable in UU, while Metagross is playable in UU thanks to its usage tiered separately from its Mega item.

I really see no downsides to this. Mega evolution is a critical and unprecedented aspect of XY, and should be taken into account by potentially tiering the Mega Items as we tier Pokemon by usage. By doing so, the lower tiers become more versatile and less volatile by preventing Pokemon to suddenly appear and disappear due to the dramatic impact of Mega Evolution. We achieve all of this by a simple modification of our tiering system, with no circumstantial/special case rules involved.

 

[Zarel]

What is so bad about banning the item? We ban items when they're broken on every Pokemon that can make use of them. We've done this with Soul Dew since gen 4 (when Latias was briefly allowed). It's not like banning Speed Boost on Blaziken at all; you aren't cherry picking one specific Pokemon in one specific situation. You're essentially banning a form.

If you were actually banning a form, it wouldn't affect Kangaskhan's NU availability. The problem is that you're banning an item.

Tier megas separately, or tier them together, I don't care. But do ONE of the two. Banning the item seriously fucks up tiering.

Soul Dew Clause was an exception, but it's at least only a single item and only affects OU. And it has some precedent in official Nintendo tournaments, too.

Like, if you banned all mega stones, that would be like Soul Dew Clause. It would at least be a clause. But if you ban some but not others depending on which tier you're in, that just massively fucks up everything.

Banning the Pokemon outright reduces the number of available Pokemon. Separating Megas from Base forms assumes that they're separate Pokemon, which they are not. By just banning the item, we achieve the goal of allowing base forms in lower tiers when their mega is overpowered, while not violating our "usage drives tiering" philosophy.

By just banning the item, you fuck up everything, you create bans that aren't visible in a tier's clauses or the smogdex/teambuilder tierlist, you fuck with the lower tiers, and seriously, it makes zero fucking sense.

I can boil it down to one question: Why is Pinsir legal in NU but Charizard not? They both have megas that are too strong for UU but not too strong for OU. This has literally nothing to do with our "usage drives tiering" philosophy.

And this appeal to precedent is worthless. Every time OU and UU ban another mega stone, you further ruin precedent and move further away from a usage-based tier system by increasing weird unintuitive situations like Pinsir/Charizard. This is a huge problem that is well worth changing in the middle of a generation.

I don't care if you think Pinsir and Mega Pinsir should be tiered together or separately. But you need to pick one.

 

[Zarel]

n.b. I predicted this situation, as well as the issue with Shadow Tag Gothorita in lower tiers, in my earlier thread:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/prefer-banning-pokémon-instead-of-items-abilities.3500294/

Banning Pokémon mostly only affects your own tier. Banning abilities and items (mega stones being the biggest issue) affects your tier and every tier below yours, and is the main reason why lower tiers are becoming less and less inclined to play by upper tiers' banlists.

 

[PK Gaming]

Funny. I've invested quite a lot of effort in devising a system for Gen VI that makes the tiers closer to what they "should" be. #HitmonchanInNU

I've been a fan of weighted stats for a long, long time and I'd definitely want to see them implemented some day. It's a discussion for another thread though.

Re: Eviolite Pokemon or Zen Mode Darmanitan or Relic Song Meloetta -- I'd argue that a differentiating feature is that these are all reversible processes (by Knock Off or recovery or repeated use). Again, I think that the "we need to be consistent" argument is the weakest. Mega Evolution is a completely new mechanic, and we have no obligation to act as if it's not.

"Reversible" is a pretty arbitrary (and frankly irrelevant) distinction to make. I'd argue that the key differentiating factor here is the fact that neither Pokemon can be accessed without using the source Pokemon in battle, which is pretty much exact the same thing as Mega Evolution. It's entirely different from say, Hoopa-M or Skymin which can be set up beforehand.

Just skimming the list here...

• Metagross was a staple of UU before Mega-M got release
• UU would also appreciate having Alakazam back
• RU happily accepted Gallade back into its life once Mega-G fell out of OU and Galladite was banned

Go through the list. There are very few Pokemon on it that weren't viable in ANY metagame. And the list is not "minuscule."

We're talking about 20 or so Pokemon in game filled with +700 Pokemon. That list is absolutely miniscule, and i'd argue that none of those of tiers are seriously hurting for most of those Pokemon. This whole thing feels like a scheme to get certain Pokemon back into a tier they would be in without their Mega evolutio ( perhaps in attempt to make tiers "better") but you know what? It bugs me. It bugs me that under this system Manectric would be RU. Manectric isn't being tied to OU by Mega Manectric. Manectric IS Mega Manectric and it absolutely deserves to be recognized as such. It has much of a right to be OU as Talonflame (who wouldn't be there without Gale Wings). And the same goes for the rest of the Pokemon who reached new heights as a result of their Mega Evolution.

This isn't something that needs to be done.

 

[Pocket]

So if Kangaskhan IS Mega Kangaskhan, shouldn't Kangaskhan be in Ubers and not in NU? Gonna echo with Zarel & Rowan here - if you're going to treat Mega Pokemon separate from the base Pokemon, as we have done through banning mega stones instead of the base Pokemon, than separate the usage tiers of Mega Stones/Mega Pokemon from the base Pokemon.

 

[blarajan]

Yeah, my issue with the way we currently tier mega stones is that we place an incredible emphasis on BL Pokemon, and it is arbitrary as fuck. To go with Zarel's example, the ONLY REASON NU gets to see Pinsir, is because Pinsir dropped to UU, and then UU banned it. If it stayed a half percentage point higher or whatever in terms of usage, that would have never happened. Kangaskhan and Mawile were banned in OU so we get to use their base forms. Pinsir dropped down to UU and got banned so we get to use it. This has nothing to do with our usage based philosophy, it's just an extension of the relatively arbitrary way in which bans take place. At this point in time we are effectively able to pick and choose which base forms we are allowed to use by banning the mega stones, which in my opinion kind of just skirts around this problem in a half assed arbitrary manner.

Personally, I think we should consider Pokemon holding their correct Mega Stone as a different Pokemon than a Pokemon not holding their Mega Stone, essentially including that Mega Stone usage in our tiering system. Thus, we would include in our usage statistics the usage for Mega Garchomp (Garchomp holding Garchompite) and regular Garchomp (Garchomp holding all items besides Garchompite). If Garchomp is OU by usage and Garchompite is UU by usage, then you cannot use Mega Garchomp in UU as you need its base form in order to hold the proper Mega Stone. The only thing really unsettling by doing this, you essentially combine an item, a non-Pokemon, into the usage stats of the corresponding Pokemon. I consider this situation similarly to Giratina-O holding Griseous Orb. I know that Giratina-O goes into battle as Giratina-O, but it gets separate usage than Giratina-A, which is just base Giratina not holding that item.

The reason I feel like this comparison is okay and that tiering Pokemon holding their Mega Stone separately from Pokemon not holding their corresponding Mega Stone is because 1) Mega Pokemon are for all intents and purposes their own Pokemon. That is what Game Freak had in mind when creating them 2) Mega Evolution is an irreversible change. Upon doing so, you can never go back to your original form 3) Mega Stones unlike other items cannot be removed through Knock Off, Thief, Trick, Switcheroo, etc., suggesting, at least as flavor, that they are part of the Pokemon. (I know that you can give the Mega Stone to a Pokemon it does not belong to, but it's worthless and so competitively unviable I don't think these cases matter.)

 

[Fusxfaranto]

So if Kangaskhan IS Mega Kangaskhan, shouldn't Kangaskhan be in Ubers and not in NU? Gonna echo with Zarel & Rowan here - if you're going to treat Mega Pokemon separate from the base Pokemon, as we have done through banning mega stones instead of the base Pokemon, than separate the usage tiers of Mega Stones/Mega Pokemon from the base Pokemon.

I agree with this sentiment, but I think that the proper solution is just to ban Kangaskhan (and likewise with all the other banned mega stones). Obviously not a good thing to do out of nowhere (probably best left until the next game gets released), but it's what should have been done in the first place. If mega stones continue to be banned separately, then it might be better to tier mega Pokemon separately, although I'm still not entirely convinced.

 

[TheFourthChaser]

PK has pretty much summed up my feelings on this. The most simple solution is the best and we already use the most simple one.

I don't find the "screwing up the low tiers" argument particularly compelling because the way OU works makes it the constant center of the tiering universe nor do I believe that the lower tiers are actually being screwed up. What exactly is the problem with Pinsir's (this seemed like the easiest example to use) current assigned tier? If it, for whatever reason, couldn't remain OU and was found too powerful for UU which resulted in a drop then why is that a problem? Low tiers aren't much more, if at all, unstable than they have been in the past. By nature low tiers are affected by the usages and suspect decisions above and below them, if Pinsir drops down then why does it matter from where the drop occurred? Dropping in a short span of time from OU to NU doesn't leave much of a difference from dropping from RU to NU, it just feels a lot bigger. One could argue that the tiers are far enough apart where that shouldn't happen but that shouldn't really matter, RU could start using Pinsir and have it removed from the NU metagame and it would practically be the same as if Mega Pinsir usage had increased in OU. Maybe I missed the point but this doesn't seem so bad that it should result in policy change.

I feel that, unless the decision here is to ban Pokemon instead of Mega stones, the solution will be needlessly complex and best avoided.

 

[WECAMEASROMANS]

I can boil it down to one question: Why is Pinsir legal in NU but Charizard not? They both have megas that are too strong for UU but not too strong for OU. This has literally nothing to do with our "usage drives tiering" philosophy.

Because as the name Overused states, OU is based on usage. Charizard has enough usage to remain OU, Pinsir does not. End of story. Our current tiering process is fine.

 

[atomicllamas]

Because as the name Overused states, OU is based on usage. Charizard has enough usage to remain OU, Pinsir does not. End of story. Our current tiering process is fine.

Yes the current process is fine, but that doesn't mean it can't be changed (as the end result would also be "fine"). This thread is discussing the merits of tiering the mega stones (when placed on the appropriate Pokemon) as if they were seperate Pokemon. So while in the current system Charizard is receiving enough usage to remain OU, in the proposed system Charizardite X and Y are receiving enough usage to be OU while Charizard is not. It's really not that hard of a concept, nor is it your place to say, "end of story", given that your argument is essentially that according to the current system, the proposed one is wrong (no shit, that's the point of a thread discussing changing the system). So yes the current system is "fine" and I'm okay with it staying this way, but that doesn't mean the proposed system isn't equally valid / possibly better.

Gonna mention this again cause it was brought up by PK Gaming but the eviolite comparison is absolutely terrible. Aside from the fact that mega stones change your actual bst (which is why we tiered Rotom-A seperately from Rotom-N in DPP), as opposed to being a stat multiplier (such as eviolite / choice specs / w/e) (which is why wise glasses Rotom is tiered in alongside itemless Rotom), Mega Evolution pretty much always changes your typing or ability, the only exception I can think of is Scizor, which usually runs light metal so it takes less damage from Low Kick on the switch in (so it still changes ability). So given that Mega Stones change the BST, typing and ability (things we've historically tiered formes seperately for) and eviolite does 0 of those things, they are clearly not comparable on any level. not to mention the vastly different effects of knock off and trick when used against these mons.

As for the concern about megas dropping lower than the base Pokemon, I really don't think it is a problem. If Garchompite drops to UU, great, you can use it in UU! I don't know how well it will work on whatever Pokemon you slap it on if regular Garchomp is OU, but okay. We could tier Meloetta-p and darm-z seperately too by the same logic if people don't buy the reversible argument (ie good luck using darm-z in NU when Darmanitan is UU) (reversible is a p big difference though in my eyes).

 

[blarajan]

Because as the name Overused states, OU is based on usage. Charizard has enough usage to remain OU, Pinsir does not. End of story. Our current tiering process is fine.

Not quite. Pinsir dropped to UU by usage and then its Mega Stone was relatively arbitrarily banned from the tier, thus freeing up its base form allowing Pinsir to drop to NU by usage.

The problem here is that specific individuals (in this instance, I believe it was kokoloko) can essentially decide which base form will be dropped to lower tiers by banning the Mega Stone. Obviously the process of banning is a well thought out process, but by doing so, we ourselves are undermining our own tiering system as we are ignoring the question proposed by this thread and are instead simply allowing Pokemon whose megas are subjectively better or worse than others to have their base forms be allowed to drop to a lower tier via usage. I do not think this is acceptable, as there really isn't any good reason that by personally removing Mega Pokemon from a tier and subjectively putting them into a situation in which they are alienated from the tiers and cannot garner usage their base forms should be allowed to be used in lower tiers when other Mega Pokemon who are generating usage statistics cannot. I cannot reconcile that distinction.

If someone can explain the merit of circumventing our own usage stats and this question through bans, please let me know.

 

[The Immortal]

Zarel has raised the best point, in my opinion, in this thread and I'm basically just repeating it. To answer the OP, they are already being tiered differently but the current process lacks consistency. For example, Mega Altaria is OU and non-Mega Altaria is prevented from being used in lower tiers. But, Mega Pinsir is BL and non-Mega Pinsir is allowed in lower tiers.

So, I think something should be done because the current process is not fine. If you ask me what should be done, they should be tiered differently. Both non-Mega Altaria and non-Mega Pinsir should be allowed in lower tiers. 2a is perfectly fine because usage stats are based on intent. If you sack a Pokemon or don't sack a Pokemon, it will affect the stats in the same way. Off course your intent when team building was not that you would sack the Pokemon. The same even applies to abilities and items. Your intent was for it to activate, but it would equally count in the usage stats whether it did or not. As for point 3, you can't legally run a Mega without the base form. So with that, Mega's should not be tiered lower than the base form.

 

[Arcticblast]

Zarel has raised the best point, in my opinion, in this thread and I'm basically just repeating it. To answer the OP, they are already being tiered differently but the current process lacks consistency. For example, Mega Altaria is OU and non-Mega Altaria is prevented from being used in lower tiers. But, Mega Pinsir is BL and non-Mega Pinsir is allowed in lower tiers.

So, I think something should be done because the current process is not fine. If you ask me what should be done, they should be tiered differently. Both non-Mega Altaria and non-Mega Pinsir should be allowed in lower tiers. 2a is perfectly fine because usage stats are based on intent. If you sack a Pokemon or don't sack a Pokemon, it will affect the stats in the same way. Off course your intent when team building was not that you would sack the Pokemon. The same even applies to abilities and items. Your intent was for it to activate, but it would equally count in the usage stats whether it did or not. As for point 3, you can't legally run a Mega without the base form. So with that, Mega's should not be tiered lower than the base form.

OU is a usage-based tier while
BL is a banlist that is almost completely separate from usage, yet Altaria and Pinsir are in directly comparable situations.

????????

People use Altaria in OU because Mega Altaria is good. People would use Pinsir in UU because Mega Pinsir would be good, but because Pinsirite is banned from UU there's no reason to use Pinsir. As a result, Pinsir drops out of UU. I'm not seeing the issue.

 

[Antar]

Another advantage to tiering Megas and bases separately is that it frees us up to consider these Pokemon to be separate Pokemon and thus to write separate analyses. It really makes no sense why Charizard X shares a dex page with Charizard Y, and as I attempt to make further advances in utilizing my check/counter metrics, it would help to consider bases separately from Megas.