Metagame Shared Power [Under Re-Construction!]

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Ivy

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Adding to this, Magic Guard basically removing Hazards from this meta turns some fights into who is going to forfeit first.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7sharedpower-702027194
In the last 77 turns 1 attack got clicked. It's just not fun to know you'll be around the next hour switching out your pokemon or just forfeit the match.
Ah yeah, this "J'HAIme" individual is who introduced me to the concept of epic PP stall. Magic Guard isn't necessary to make these tactics work, although without it there will be a modicum of hazards strewn about, which might cause a negligible amount of annoyance to the stall team. Regenerator is the big one here, and without Multiscale there's even less of an incentive to give a heck about a small amount of entry damage, being able to simply Poison Heal and/or Regenerate to kingdom come. In a stall vs. stall matchup the only option is to switch indefinitely, arguably one of the worst possible results imaginable, and this is entirely due to regen.
kinda stealing my own thunder re: the pp stall issue last page but w/e, both are parts of the problem
 
I’ve made a poll in the first post of the thread to get the community’s opinions on our recent bans. The poll will close soon! The recent bans have left some of the playerbase unhappy, so I’d like to gauge an overall opinion from the community. The options are:

Ban Magic Guard, Magic Bounce, Innards Out

Ban Magic Guard, Innards Out

Ban Multiscale, Sturdy
 

Ivy

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I know you're a big proponent of tours showing off the virtues of teambuilding, so let's have a look at the semifinals in the most recent OM room tour:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7sharedpower-702131053
And the finals? Well, some people know when to quit: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7sharedpower-702133089
So yeah, this goes back to the previous post regarding prankster+sub. Not a very good time if you're on the receiving end!
pretty much forces you to run cloyster, pangoro, or a regenerator team. Prankster is flying under the radar
 
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I want to support a prankster+substitute complex ban. It is too easy to stall whole teams with the help of magic bounce and pressure, giving insta wins against teams that aren't prepared for that. By also baning also starf berry, the most annoying aspects of harvest teams will dissapear, opening the the door of a harvest unban. There are interesting harvest strategies that, while possibly annoying, bring interesting tools to the metagame and have counterplay, such as aguav berry snorlax belly drum, and salac berry/aguav berry + mind blown/curse. The only issue with a harvest unban would be sub+protect+salac berry on a fast pokemon, but that pokemon must stay on the field to preserve his boosts and is easier to pp stall. But even without harvest, sub + prankster is completly annoying and stupid.

1518295938948.png

I also want to talk about this pokemon and his mega. i think manectric is the most underrated pokemon in the metagame, i never saw him on the ladder, but i want to give him a try and i hope he will see more usage in the future. Mega manectric has access to intimidate, a very usefull ability but due to a few drawbacks, people have trouble fitting a intimidate user on their teams. Those drawbacks are:

1) The ability becomes useless if you have unawere.
2) Against Contrary and defiant teams, you are constantly giving your oponent an attack boost each time one of your pokemon enters the field.

Manectric is the only pokemon available who can decide to go for intimidate or not after team preview, and that solve problem (2). manectric is not completly useless without his mega since he can access to lighting rod, a nice ability that blocks moves like Zap cannon and thunderbolt. If you prepare a good team that can beat contrary teams without unawere, then manectric can be an interesting addition against other playstyles.
Mega manectric has a base 135 speed, with that speed he almost outspeed the entire unboosted metagame (since megabee is banned), and then he can pivot out with volt switch without taking damage, and let a partner enter the field, thus activating intimidate again to drop another attack stat to the oponent. Mane has a limited movepool, but with overheat he can hit hard if you have contrary or against teams with unawere.
 
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I know I'm getting annoying with it, but can we PLEASE quickban Serene Grace. Getting flinched by Speed Boost Sharpedo, Mega Aero, Weavile etc. is not really something I want to see every game ...
 
Imo if this is the path we're taking, we need to ban Dazzling, Queenly Majesty, Psychic Terrain, and Magic Guard (+Innards Out, Potentially Magic Bounce). And following the ban of anti-priority, Pangoro would likely go as well (Or just Triage in general). Offense v offense matchups, because of anti-priority, literally come down to 'whoever's faster wins' because stuff like Skill Link beats Sturdy/Sash etc, hits incredibly hard even with Mega-beedrill getting the boot, and can't really be dealt with unless you have a bulky steel type on your team, most of which don't really fit onto offense teams aside from Doublade, who I'm currently seeing in nearly every match I have against offense. I'd almost nominate Skill Link for a ban but I think getting rid of anti-priority is necessary before we take that step. Banning anti-priority also helps mitigate things like what Zyrax mentioned, as flinchhax is no longer as effective when notably frail mons aren't consistently outspeeding entire teams. And Prankster + Sub is no longer as much of an issue since those mons can get whacked by strong priority before having a chance to set-up.

Magic Guard's been a problem this whole time and honestly should've been dealt with before Multiscale. Multiscale, Sturdy and Regenerator have all been deemed problems by the community, despite their effectiveness being almost entirely dependent on the prevalence of Magic Guard. Even teams that don't carry Magic Guard can afford to run those abilities as hazard play has seen a significant decrease in use in this meta, meaning most teams won't carry those options even in the face of teams without it. It's also a key factor in stall v stall matchups becoming the endless switch-loops they're notorious for in this meta.

I've been pretty anti-ban this whole time since I deeply enjoyed the chaos of original SP, but it's clear that Haaku. is making a concerted effort to balance this meta as much as possible, and at the moment enough bans have been put in place that the meta has kind of reached a middle ground between chaos and balance where it's just become stale and honestly not that fun to play. I think banning anti-priority and magic guard will open up teambuilding in a huge way, we may end up with a fairly large ban-list, but so be it. (Psychic Terrain could maybe stay, as it has more counter play and doesn't completely open up the meta to getting dunked on, but Idunno)
 

Ivy

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Anti priority being disallowed does have its merits but it has shortcomings as well. As you mentioned, Pangoro would be an even bigger nuisance (and no longer restricted to Pangoro; rather, anything with a healing move), but also things like Gale Wings bird spam become even greater. Not too hard to have a defogger/spinner to help ensure your birds stay at peak performance without even Magic Guard, and stuff like Rock Head can be used instead to protect against recoil. Dragonite on Aerilate teams could even see a resurgence by virtue of being able to set up with its personal Multiscale and then Extreme Speed to the high heavens.
 
I don't agree with anti-priority ban. Why the hell do you think Offense comes down to "whoever faster wins?" Speed Boosting Abilities are no longer an issue, so use your Choice Scarf and revenge them. Will a Choice Scarf mon sweep an entire team? Please give me a good replay and then I'll believe you.
 
I don't agree with anti-priority ban. Why the hell do you think Offense comes down to "whoever faster wins?" Speed Boosting Abilities are no longer an issue, so use your Choice Scarf and revenge them. Will a Choice Scarf mon sweep an entire team? Please give me a good replay and then I'll believe you.
It's Shared Power, of course a scarf mon can sweep an entire team. Any offense team that doesn't have a steel or ghost type is going to die to scarfed Ambipom with Sturdy on it's side, even if the opposing team has Sturdy itself because lol Skill Link.

There are absolutely issues with banning anti-priority, but at least priority has more options for abusers and isn't quite as restrictive on team building, people are out here running Mudsdale JUST to deal with Skill Link and that's not even a surefire counter. Literally half of the teams I'm seeing on ladder right now are Cincinno, Ambipom/Cloyster, Doublade, Durant, Bruxish + Filler (Probably sturdy, magic guard or unaware) and it's not just because people are uncreative, it's because that team gets consistent results. You might have an answer to one variant of that team (if not unaware, you got Stamina, if not Magic Guard you might have Iron barbs I guess etc etc) but chances are there's some form of that team that, with little variation, can probably beat your team.

Anti-priority helps break Skill Link, it helped break Unburden, it helps break Flinchhax and it needs to go, sorry.

Edit:

Unrelated but Haaku. I think you made a bad call giving the poll 3 options. Now the vote for people who are pro-magic guard ban is split, while the vote for pro-multiscale ban has the full support of anyone in favour, making it seem at a glance like the community overwhelmingly supports a Multiscale ban over Magic Guard, despite the vote being more 50/50 in regards to those 2 abilities alone. Just my 2 cents.
 
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Unrelated but Haaku. I think you made a bad call giving the poll 3 options. Now the vote for people who are pro-magic guard ban is split, while the vote for pro-multiscale ban has the full support of anyone in favour, making it seem at a glance like the community overwhelmingly supports a Multiscale ban over Magic Guard, despite the vote being more 50/50 in regards to those 2 abilities alone. Just my 2 cents.
Obviously the votes will be split, that’s why they’ll be added together when the poll is finalized.
 
A team that has found surprising use for me is a team dedicated to snowballing Sp. Atk.
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Wish
- Heal Bell

Blacephalon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mind Blown
- Dark Pulse
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball

Alakazam @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Counter
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Energy Ball

Magearna @ Assault Vest
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Shadow Ball

Porygon-Z @ Life Orb
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tri Attack
- Foul Play
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt

Latios @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Dragon Pulse
- Energy Ball
- Psyshock

If anyone has counters for this that AREN'T named
Sturdy or Multiscale, please tell me.
 
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A team that has found surprising use for me is a team dedicated to snowballing Sp. Atk.
-snip-
If anyone has counters for this that AREN'T named
Sturdy or Multiscale, please tell me.
Defog on latios is pointless since you're floating above webs and spikes and have magic guard blocking rocks.
 
Pangoro is as frightening as it is because he has mold breaker that bypass sturdy, multiscale and anti priority (except psychic terrain). If those abilities got banned, there are even better fighting types like conkeldur, heracross and buzzowle who can run Havoc on the opposing team. Also dont forget pokemon like contrary serperior, etc. Noy only aerialite dragonite will be a nightmare but also technician+quick attack+ somethingATE, and if you combine that with fake out...

In regards to the Sturdy vs focus sash topic, i dont think one is better than the other. In a HO team sturdy is clearly better since you will need a scarf, and maybe a Z-user or mega. But in a bulky offensive playstyle, sacrifice an ability slot for sturdy may be too much if your pokemon can take some hits. Eventually those teams will need about 2 pokemon as blanket checks, but they can carry focus sash instead of something like life orb and have a pokemon with some ability like adaptability instead of a sturdy mon because that would be better for the whole team. If sturdy got banned then every ofensive team will carry pure sash and scarf because that would be the most effective way of playing, so we will be in the same situation as before, but with the difference that choice scarfers will be unprotected and those who carry life orb/Z-move will carry sash now, but they will be supported by some offensive ability like adaptability or though claws. In other words, HO will be worse, but the idea behind those teams will be the same. It is not that bad to have 1 or 2 Focus sash pokemon with Magic guard assist but when more than half of the team is like that it seems a bit uncompetitive.

Regardless of what happen with sturdy, i think that magic guard needs to get banned. What made alakazam great in gen 5 was not focus sash, because other sweepers like weavile needed more support to be effective, despite having a better offensive typing. The meta can adquire a lot more of color, because, despite being magic bounce the obvius replacement of magic guard, teams can use the bounce effect in their favor. Also, some styles like sand and hail can revive because of magic guard is gone. Here are some pokemon whose usage can rise because of a magic guard ban.

Excadril: with Mold breaker, SR and rapid spin it may become the favourite pick for offensive teams. But if a team needs a better ability slot or a better Mold Breaker, Excadril may be difficult to fit. He can also fit on sand teams.
Shuckle: Probaly the best rock setter on contrary teams. If your opponent has magic bounce, then he can bounce sticky web. He is alredy popular but can rise.
Forrestres: good spiker and spiner, he also has overcoat.
Alola Golem/magnezone: magnet pull traps excadril and doublade, also provide a headache vs steelworker teams.
Galvantula: another web setteer, but with better speed and compoundeyes. Serperior can provide contrary support.
Sableye: Prankster may be needed in excadril teams, and he can mega evolve to provide magic bounce support against non-contrary temas. Also a good spin blocker. But most of sableye utility is negated with magic bounce on the other side.
Bishsarp: Defiant helps keep the pressure and slow sweepers with priority like triage pangoro can become deadly with sticky web on his side of the field despite having -1 speed.
tyranytar: Sand can cut focus sash on almost every skill link user. Also, he set up rocks.
Alola ninetales: hail hits every pokemon on the tier with the exception of Kyurem W, cloyster and overcoat teams.
Lati@s/rotom W: Levitate makes the team inmune against spikes and webs without needing a magic bouncer. Being not affected by terrains is an issue, though.
Ferrothorn: good support with spikes and rocks. he can KO any skill link mon that attacks him with tail slap if he carries rocky helmet.

Allowing passive damage will give stall more tools to hurt their opponents rather than pp stalling them, even with ferrothorn alone vs magic bounce. I agree with multiscale going because it was too much, but i feel that magic guard (and innards out ) has to go to.

[/SPOILER]
If anyone has counters for this that AREN'T named
Sturdy or Multiscale, please tell me
Unawere?
 
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Ivy

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A team that has found surprising use for me is a team dedicated to snowballing Sp. Atk.
If anyone has counters for this that AREN'T named
Sturdy or Multiscale, please tell me.
Yeah, opposing Unaware users destroy the snowball aspect. It's too bad the only special Mold Breaker is Ampharos. I suppose scarf Kyurem-Black with only special investment could do good work with those boosts!
 
Two questions:
1) Does Mega Pinsir get the Gale Wings priority with its normal/flying moves?
2) Does Mega Pinsir's normal/flying move get an Adaptability boost?

Thanks in advance.
 
I thought I would share with the community a new team which I have been trying out on showdown. I figured that I would take inspiration from old-school games, e.g. building a team with a defensive core (i.e. fire/grass/water or dragon/fairy/steel), or a monotype one which has adapted to deal with its various checks/counters.

Ultimately, I found that a steel monotype team on shared power was both effective and extremely fun to play with.
Said team is (I'll explain the roles later):

Scarfed Magearna with ice beam, fleur + flash cannon, and focus blast.

Mega Scizor with roost, sd, bug bite and knock off.

Doublade with SD, shadow sneak, iron head and sacred sword.

Specs Magnezone (sturdy not magnet pull) with zap cannon, volt switch, hp fire, flash cannon

P-defensive Celesteela with fire blast, air slash, leech seed and flash cannon

Air balloon S-Defensive Heatran with magma storm, earth power, roar and dark pulse.

So the team functions around the concept that any mon can sweep if it gets a KO. If the opposing team lacks a ground type/no electric immunity ability, zap cannon can be spammed. Moreover, given that beast boost and soul heart stack, a plus 2 specs Magnezone with sturdy is hard to kill.

Magnezone initially was my steel counter/trapper, so I ran a magnet pull set but then realised that sturdy benefits the team more given threats like mega blaziken and mega lopunny. It puts in a lot of work given the lack of viable ground types outside sand/stamina teams. Lando-T can be an issue (likewise with any EQ spammer) but scarfed Magearna can deal with it easily with ice beam.

Mega Scizor is my normal sweeper mainly because of how well it stacks up against common threats.
For example, alakazam and Clefable are both coveted in SP because of magic guard- an effective immunity to life orb/entry hazards. Mega scizor eats them both for breakfast, despite not having a steel STAB. Normally bullet punch is a must on scizor/mega scizor because of technician and priority, but priority moves in this metagame are poor given the wealth of anti priority strategies (e.g. psychic terrain/queenly majesty/dazzling.) Besides, every other mon on the team has steel STAB, so scizor not having it isn't a crippling issue. More importantly, it makes the other team think it has BP, which can lead to it getting up a SD on the switch. It benefits hugely from Heatran's flash fire ability, making it nigh impossible to kill with an unboosted mon. Roost means that it can stick around for a while to slowly sweep an opponent's team. Moreover, scizor's knock off makes it brilliant against poison heal teams if it can knock off the toxic orb on turn 1. Ultimately the team is built around Mega Scizor's bulk. The only real counter to it was a sturdy counter alakazam set. But the tradeoff works in our favour given that Doublade can revenge kill with SS.

Doublade plays the part of a revenge killer in this team despite it's low speed. A stab + technician boosted shadow sneak is it's main weapon, but iron head/sacred sword hit hard (particularly given the latter ignores stat changes to the opponent.) It is especially good against porygon-Z ( very common because everyone wants adaptability on their team) in teams which don't carry anti-priority measures. This is because porygon Z almost always uses Z-conversion 2 and becomes a ghost type on the first turn. SD on that turn and then hit it with a shadow sneak and watch as your mon sweeps the opposing team. A normal and fighting immunity is huge in this metagame given the freedom by which mega Blaziken sweeps most teams so Doublade is a key player on this team.

Magearna is the special cleaner, it threatens the biggest threats to the team (ground types like lando-T and garchomp) with ice beam and fleur cannon. It has a good speed which allows it to outspeed the majority of the mons in the game (unboosted.) It is also versatile, so opponents can struggle to predict what Magearna you are running (given the threat of shift gear). Capitalise on this uncertainty, make some hard reads and watch as your team sails to victory.

Heatran was mainly there to give flash fire to the team, but has good synergy with the rest of the team, as shown by its appreciation of an 100% accurate magma storm, something which can add chip damage and trap pesky mons. Roar is a good phasing mechanism unless the opposition is rocking soundproof unlikely but is a thing- A solid counter against aereliate boomburst spamming Noiverns.) Dark pulse and earth power are simply for coverage. Mind you, Heatran is specially defensive in this team but if it picks up a KO, it can put in a truck load of work.

Celesteela provides the means by which the team can sweep: beast boost. It also posseses a 100% accurate flying stab with a chance to flinch which can be useful against those pesky fighting types. Leech seed is for non magic guard teams and an additional form of recovery. Basically Celesteela is used to wall your opponent and to sack off if you need a safe switch in to one of the heavy hitters of the team. A ground immunity is also very nice, but a lack of a water/grass move does hurt it in it's role to being a counter to ground types.

Strengths of the team: High potential to sweep, not too unbalanced (i.e. not like most hyper-offensive teams), team is suited to deal with a lot of top threats in the metagame.

Weaknesses: ground types- whilst rare in this metagame, an EQ spammer will be dangerous to this team. The team doesn't like stealth rocks because it means that sturdy is void, although no mon on this team barring magearna cares too much about sticky web. Fighting types like mega lopunny and Blaziken (which IMO should be banned) put in a lot of work against this time, but sturdy does help.

Use this team if you wish, make any changes where you see fit (comment them below- a debate is always nice). Just give some credit to me at the end of the day if you end up using it lol.
 
Hey guys. I’d like to discuss something I’m sure you have noticed. Shared Power Monotype is an official meta on the Random Other Metas server. I decided to try and develop this. Haaku. can decide whether or not to take my ideas on.

Here are the bans and clauses I think are fitting.
  • Standard Shared Power clauses EXCEPT
  • Tinted Lens is unbanned. I decided to ban it on flying types. It doesn’t seem as broken on bug or poison teams, though haaku might be opposed to this complex ban.
  • Tapu Lele is banned. This should be self explanatory. I didn’t want to give anti priority and a boost to their stabs to psychic teams. Again, if haaku is opposed to this I will happily remove it.
Will post samples here.

Somethings I would like to look at.

Hustle. Durant, Doublade and Kartana available on the same team, this will probably need to be looked at.

Magic Guard: Looks like it may push fairy teams over the edge. We’ll see though.

Full ban on tinted: Sheer Force, Regen, Adaptability and Tinted on the same team (poison) w/ abusers of this combination like Muk-A and Salazzle may be a bit too much.

Again, if Haaku. says he won’t allow it, then I can’t go through with it. It seems fun though
 
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