Resource Simple Questions, Simple Answers Thread (read the op before posting a thread)

lyd

cactuaring
is a Top Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Top Artistis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributor
Moderator
Thanks so much for the quick reply! Mega-Scizor seems like a great option considering most Kyurem-Blacks that I've seen have been running Earth Power lately to deal with the ever-present Heatran. AV Magearna is an interesting option as well considering it's a lot more specially bulky than Tangrowth. The only thing I would worry about with running AV Magearna over Tangrowth is an increased weakness to Ash-Greninja.

What mons do you think might partner well with AV Mage to act as another soft-check to Ash-Gren?
It depends a lot on the archetype you’re going for. Offense can usually get away with just AV Magearna and a Water resist like Serperior or Rotom-W. If you’re really worried though, you can try fitting something like Choice Band Tapu Bulu or even Mega Gyarados. On teams a bit bulkier though, something like Toxapex, SpDef Tapu Bulu, or even Tangrowth is fine.
 

Finchinator

Treat People With Kindness
is a Top Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis a former Tournament Circuit Champion
BW Circuit Champion
What is a pokemon that can discourage sub?

I want to make a cheese team and make use of iron ball ditto on TR

I know it'll have people looking sideways confused yelling haxs
Moved to hear because more appropriate. Anyway, not sure precisely what you’re looking for, but Mega Heracross has multi-hit moves and Hoopa-Unbound has signature moves that bypasses Substitute. No viable pokemon have Infiltrator, but the closest you can get is Chandelure probably.
 
What is a pokemon that can discourage sub?

I want to make a cheese team and make use of iron ball ditto on TR

I know it'll have people looking sideways confused yelling haxs
Hyper Voice bypasses subs and can be used in theory, though no viable pokemon get it. You can theoretically use M-Gardevoir's Pixiliate HV to hit mons like Zygarde or Drampa with Sap Sipper on popular sub abusers like Bulu or Serperior. Sub isn't all that common outside of those 3 mons, though it pops up on other mons like Mega-Heracross, M-Diancie, M-Medicham, or, like, Buzzwole from time to time. Noivern gets Infiltrator too and I remember some meme going around this summer with Fly-Z or something to break annoying cheese like Veil + Sub Zygarde.
 
What is a pokemon that can discourage sub?

I want to make a cheese team and make use of iron ball ditto on TR

I know it'll have people looking sideways confused yelling haxs
Nothing can cover every single possible Substitute user, but one of the best viable things that can ignore a sub in most cases is Volcarona since Bug Buzz is sound-based, although you still want a lot of prior damage on Zygarde - one of the best abusers of substitute in OU because of its amazing HP, coverage, and setup moves - and a little prior damage on Mega Gyarados before a boost so you can actually OHKO it since Fat Volcarona (136 speed, the rest to maximize its ability to check Mega Mawile, QD+Roost+STABs) doesn't run any direct offensive investment. And even then, it's still not covering everything.

But yeah, I agree that the question is a little iffy. You can't really "punish" someone for using Substitute without some extremely specific tech.
 
OU unrelated but also related because I can't find information anywhere. Will Smogon be implementing Pokemon Let's Go mechanics to the main tiers or will it be an OM?

Second question, regardless of the yes or no answer to the above question, will Meltan and Melmetal be usable in Standard Tiers when Pokemon Let's Go is released?
 

Colonel M

ZA WARUDO
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
OU unrelated but also related because I can't find information anywhere. Will Smogon be implementing Pokemon Let's Go mechanics to the main tiers or will it be an OM?

Second question, regardless of the yes or no answer to the above question, will Meltan and Melmetal be usable in Standard Tiers?
We can't really provide any further information until we know more information on how everything works.

Once we know, I'm sure you'll hear about it.
 
We can't really provide any further information until we know more information on how everything works.

Once we know, I'm sure you'll hear about it.
It could be possible, because it's now been revealed that they have abilities and learnsets so it'll just be like any other ordinary Pokémon. I would like to be able to use Melmetal in the normal USUM ladder
 

Colonel M

ZA WARUDO
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
It could be possible, because it's now been revealed that they have abilities and learnsets so it'll just be like any other ordinary Pokémon. I would like to be able to use Melmetal in the normal USUM ladder
There has also been little information on trading between USUM and Pokemon Let's Go, if any exists. Instead of theorymonning on whether we can or not, let's just wait for the data mine or, you know, the game's release before spewing nonsense.

I was well aware as of yesterday of Melmetal's ability, stats, and signature move, so that is nowhere near where my doubt is.

Either way, it is best to cease continuing anything with Pokemon Let's Go until the game's release. Even if it is revealed that USUM can trade with Let's Go, it is up to OU Council and Zarel for the implementation and tiering of the Pokemon.
 
Thanks so much for the quick reply! Mega-Scizor seems like a great option considering most Kyurem-Blacks that I've seen have been running Earth Power lately to deal with the ever-present Heatran. AV Magearna is an interesting option as well considering it's a lot more specially bulky than Tangrowth. The only thing I would worry about with running AV Magearna over Tangrowth is an increased weakness to Ash-Greninja.

What mons do you think might partner well with AV Mage to act as another soft-check to Ash-Gren?
If you can fit mega-zor on your team its a much better kyurem answer than AV Mage. I wouldn't recommend subbing AV Mage directly in for tangrowth as the latter checks zy/chomp/scarf lando's powerful physical ground moves all of which will destroy Mage. Tapu Bulu is one of the best Gren checks and will be able to check the aforementioned mons. It's also pretty splashable and easy to fit onto teams.

Lastly if you have a mon that outspeed and revenge kills Ash-Gren (hopefully something that can take at least 1 specs shuriken at full like mega-zam scarf-tana, scarf-koko) than AV Mage can stave off transformation long enough for hopefully the rest of your team to win.
 
What is a pokemon that can discourage sub?

I want to make a cheese team and make use of iron ball ditto on TR

I know it'll have people looking sideways confused yelling haxs
It depends on what you mean by discourage and what your team is. In general hoopa U or Hoopa C most definitely shit on subbers (hyperspace fury hoopa u, and hyperspace hole for both) if your run those moves and many moves have multi hit. TBH mega heracross is the most popular but honestly it's really ehhhh if you're going that route you're pretty much going for multi hit grass moves. which you could use breloom for. In fact sash breloom strongly discourages subbers (granted that it's intact). If you want power and multi hit shit like cloyster def is really good, and cincinno can work. You could also run unaware mons.

Now As far as infiltrator mons go, you're looking at noivern, crobat, or chandelure. I really like infiltrator crobat lol and noivern def can be useful for that as well as the lamp but like i said earlier it's team dependent so..

P.S. - toucannon gets multi hit and can be useful but i dont have too much experience with it
edit: I think it's time to get toucannon ranked
 
Last edited:
Why has OU been relatively stable when the other tiers and OMs seem to have been suspect testing stuff every 3 months? Did OU just get lucky this generation?
 

Finchinator

Treat People With Kindness
is a Top Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis a former Tournament Circuit Champion
BW Circuit Champion
Why has OU been relatively stable when the other tiers and OMs seem to have been suspect testing stuff every 3 months? Did OU just get lucky this generation?
I hardly think the level of stability OU this generation is a testament to any sort of "luck"; much on the contrary, OMs are oftentimes inherently flawed, revolving around elements that naturally create a degree of imbalance that tiering means cannot solve simply and lower tiers are subject to usage shifts that can throw their sustained balance out of whack, too, which makes OU having less suspect tests than other metagames a likely reality.

ps: don't use toucannon
 
Why has OU been relatively stable when the other tiers and OMs seem to have been suspect testing stuff every 3 months? Did OU just get lucky this generation?
In addition to what Finch said, suspect tests are most common shortly after new elements are introduced to the metagame. Towards the beginning of the generation, for example, OU had a relatively high rate of quickbans/suspects (Aegislash, Zygarde-Complete, Landorus-Incarnate) because broken things became legal, were tested by the playerbase, were identified as unhealthy, and were removed. Pheromosa was allowed in the tier for a bit when people were mostly using AoA sets, but once QD+Z-Move was innovated and became a force in the metagame, that pushed it over the edge and it was banned. Some of the later suspects -- Naganadel and Marshadow -- happened not too long after a busted mon was brought into the meta. You get the idea.

Lower tiers have a lot of instability because mons are constantly becoming legal (some of which will need to be removed) or illegal (some of which were keeping otherwise problematic things in check) because of usage in higher tiers.

As for OMs, I'm not sure that they're THAT much more unstable than OU, but they do have much smaller and less skilled playerbases. Once the obviously imbalanced elements that Finch describes are removed, the more subtly unhealthy parts of the metagame (which are less artifacts of new rulesets and more like the kind of broken stuff that gets into OU) are discovered over a much longer period because less manpower is being devoted to identifying optimal teams. This results in a steady trickle of suspects and bans that more popular tiers would get over with quickly.
 
Why has OU been relatively stable when the other tiers and OMs seem to have been suspect testing stuff every 3 months? Did OU just get lucky this generation?
OU is the highest usage-based tier, and given that Ubers is OU’s banlist first and foremost it’s why OU is slow to stabilize early on (when broken stuff like Zygarde-C, Blaziken, Deoxys formes, Marshadow, Naganadel, etc. are legal) but slow to destabilize later in a generation since, ideally, there aren’t any bombshells being dropped to shake up the meta late in a generation.

So there are two potential ways OU can remain stable while other tiers destabilize:

Scenario 1:
OU, as the highest usage-based tier, is extremely inclusive: anything in UU, RU, NU, PU, and the unofficial ZU is usable in OU but more often than not it isn’t great in OU. When stuff like Azumarill and Breloom aren’t used in OU, they eventually drop down to UU due to them not making the 3.41% usage statistics required to enter or remain in a tier. And a lower tier like UU is where the lower power levels give them fewer reliable offensive and defensive answers, and metagames ultimately warp around them until they either fall out of favor or are deemed banworthy, as was the case with both Azumarill and Breloom. Azumarill outclassed many other Water-type breakers and its defensive typing was an absolute headache to boot, too, while Breloom forced tons of switches and had the tools to punish them all dearly, and counterplay to those was developed. Flying types grew prominent in the Breloom meta to fight it and its Spore assault back, and Rhyperior grew prominent as an answer to these.

Scenario 2:
The next common situation, instead of “bad in OU but great in UU” is “good in UU but also good in OU.” A fine example of this could be seen in UU SEVERAL times over the course of this generation: some of the top threats in UU, such as Mamoswine as a powerful wallbreaker and Stealth Rocker, Serperior as a powerful sweeper with fantastic utility options to boot, Amoonguss as a blanket check to the broken parts of the UU meta, and Gliscor as an immeasurably-versatile defensive AND offensive threat with countless centralizing and viable sets, all had some sort of niche in OU at some point or another.

Mamoswine rose to OU in-part because of Aim’s Mamoswine TTT and in-part because the ridiculous Ice/ground typing was incredibly anti-meta in light of all the Tapu Koko, Landorus-T, Magearna, Toxapex, Tapu Bulu, Tangrowth, Heatran, and Zygarde teams running around that were torn to shreds by Mamo’s fantastic coverage. It was a counterpick with a valuable niche at the time and rose as a result, but it leaving really hurt Hyper Offensive playstyles that really appreciated its ability to get Stealth Rock up and keep it up by smashing Defoggers that wanted to get rid of Klefki’s precious Spikes. Spikes+Mamoswine+Mega Sharpedo is a ferocious offensive core in UU but without Mamoswine it’s not quite as good.

Serperior was dangerous, versatile, and splashable in UU and was one of the threats to prep for. But an RMT that utilized Serperior’s good utility options and great speed tier helped Serperior get some usage in OU, and it since rose to OU, finds itself on many Hyper Offense teams here, and is showing no signs of stopping courtesy of having the extremely irritating combo of Substitute+Leech Seed, an incredible Speed stat, and the incredible Glare to paralyze everything except Electric types. With this set Serperior can 1v1 anything slower than it that isn’t immune to Leech Seed, often without even needing to directly attack them. Heatran cannot switch in on SubSeed Serperior, for instance, as if it gets either a Substitute, a Leech Seed, or a lucky Glare off it can just stall Heatran out easily. UU lost Serperior and has since adapted to a tier without the snake.

Amoonguss was used to deal with Breloom, Serperior, and some Azumarill variants due to its great bulk, typing, ability, and its surprisingly good offensive stats. If you’re able to check three of the biggest threats in a tier with one set while being viable against other threats you’re automatically good in that tier. It could, however, lure in and beat Heatran with a powerful Assault Vest set with Stomping Tantrum and this niche was prized enough that it rose to OU. I already told you what Azumarill and Breloom did to UU; that’s because Amoonguss left.

Finally there’s Gliscor. The most versatile threat in UU was so prominent that stuff ran Hidden Power Ice over Hidden Power Grass solely to kill Gliscor. It was a staple on Stall teams but could, due to its role compression and movepool, fit basically anywhere. Much of this carried over to OU after it got the Defog+Poison Heal combo and it eventually rose to OU naturally because it did a lot of the same things here as it did in UU. And the tier adapted: stuff ran Hidden Power Grass to all but invalidate Swampert and Rhyperior and Gligar climbed up the UUVR to try to recapture some of what Gliscor did on fatter teams.

Sorry for the extremely long explanation. But hopefully this was the answer you were looking for.
 
Last edited:
Why has OU been relatively stable when the other tiers and OMs seem to have been suspect testing stuff every 3 months? Did OU just get lucky this generation?
What everyone said, and also OMs don't get suspects every 3 months. The most unstable OM is probably Balanced Hackmons, where probably a thousand sets lurk due to its nearly limitless allowed abilities and moves. They've only had 2 suspects this year after the meta stabilized from several suspects in 2018, while the other main OMs (AG, MnM, 1v1, Monotype) don't really see much suspects due to those mostly being restricted by quite a lot of rules. (ZU is more of a usage based OM under PU) Overused rarely gets any suspects unless new Pokemon are introduced, as the meta stays centralizing around mons like Zyg Tran Kart Gren Lando MMawile and stuff.
 
What is the standard Dragonium zygarde set? It's not in the official smogon writeups.

I'm guessing Jolly max attack, max speed, with ddance thousand arrows outrage and iron tail. Just wanted to double check the ev spread and 4th move.

Also second question. I've seen a lot of reference to Moltres stall and notice Moltres sits at C in the VR. What does Moltres do that Zapdos does not for a stall team?
 
Last edited:
Why has OU been relatively stable when the other tiers and OMs seem to have been suspect testing stuff every 3 months? Did OU just get lucky this generation?
Well, all the other tiers can be influenced by rises to/drops from a higher tier, which do not concern OU by virtue of being the highest usage tier. If you look at UU for instance, you can see that most of their suspect tests where either about some OU mon that dropped, or some UU threat that became too much for the tier because of some UU mon rising to OU. We banned all the broken mons from OU a while ago now, so we're basically set for a long time now.

I've seen a lot of reference to Moltres stall and notice Moltres sits at C in the VR. What does Moltres do that Zapdos does not for a stall team?
I am pretty sure that using both to form a double Pressure core is a thing, but otherwise it's a defogger that beats Heatran, as well as problematic mons for stall because it can afford to fit Substitute in his set.
 
What is the standard Dragonium zygarde set? It's not in the official smogon writeups.

I'm guessing Jolly max attack, max speed, with ddance thousand arrows outrage and iron tail. Just wanted to double check the ev spread and 4th move.

Also second question. I've seen a lot of reference to Moltres stall and notice Moltres sits at C in the VR. What does Moltres do that Zapdos does not for a stall team?
I don't recommend Dragonium Zygarde, but the idea is Adamant, max Attack+max Speed, and DD+Outrage+ESpeed/Iron Fail+Thousand Arrows. It can blow Tangrowth back after a boost but the set exists exclusively to blow Tangrowth back, and it therefore hurts Zygarde's ability to run significantly better sets.

Zygarde has a tremendous amount of viable sets: among them include SubCoil+Glare (this set, IMO, is what makes it borderline S-worthy at this point in the meta), SubDD+Protect paired with Toxic Spikes support, Groundium, Steelium (this set is bad too but I'd easily consider it superior to Dragonium), Choice Band, Double-Dance, SpDef RestTalk, and Weakness Policy. Even sets that seem incredibly rigid have a surprising amount of elbow room given how many options Thousand Arrows successfully compresses, to the point where it isn't unheard of to run Toxic or Glare on more offensively-inclined sets to either catch a Tangrowth, Tapu Bulu, or Avalugg switch-in with a Toxic or to severely cripple something with Glare's shenanigans.

If you want to use Dragonium-Z Zygarde I'd probably recommend SD+Rocks+Z-move (Dragonium or Rockium are viable) Garchomp instead. Garchomp has two amazing moves that Zygarde lacks in Swords Dance and Stealth Rock (and Stone Edge is also really solid though it's a little more negotiable) and its superior offensive spread makes it a much more immediately-threatening presence easily capable of shredding through any form of hazard control in the tier. Garchomp is a bit more effective at providing team support than Dragonium Zygarde is since it's a superior breaker with a lot more of an immediate offensive presence than an unboosted Zygarde, and a significantly scarier prospect to face than Zygarde after only a single boost since a +2 Devastating Drake or Continental Crush will probably kill something.
 

Jordy

is a Top Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Top Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributor
Discord Leader
Why do the uu bl mons not ranked on the VR have to have a analysis?
It's because, despite not being ranked these Pokemon still get dozens of views every day of people looking to understand them better/wanting to use them. So there should at the very least be a quick summary as to what they attempt to do in the metagame and why they're bad/by who they're outclassed to inform the reader.

e: sniped
 
I am pretty sure that using both to form a double Pressure core is a thing, but otherwise it's a defogger that beats Heatran, as well as problematic mons for stall because it can afford to fit Substitute in his set.
Can't switch into tran cause of toxic/taunt. And on a stall team letting a mon die to get Moltres in to face tran is a sub-optimal strategy. I get that trapper tran is a big problem for stall teams and that you force a predict cause otherwise your opponent is losing 2 precious M-storms, but feel like there has to be more to it than that. Especially since Zap can also sub-roost to stall out trans m-storms although its a dicier prediction battle.
 

Felixx

I'm back.
Can't switch into tran cause of toxic/taunt. And on a stall team letting a mon die to get Moltres in to face tran is a sub-optimal strategy. I get that trapper tran is a big problem for stall teams and that you force a predict cause otherwise your opponent is losing 2 precious M-storms, but feel like there has to be more to it than that. Especially since Zap can also sub-roost to stall out trans m-storms although its a dicier prediction battle.
If it's utility Tran w/ Toxic it's Lefties so you literally go M-Sab/Glis, Moltres handles Z-Move Tran (which doesen't run Toxic), which would otherwise blow past either M-Sab or Glis w/ a well timed attack. Zap doesn't run Substitute.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top