Well I already have
as my water . So I will probably have to use separate checks.Ty for the answer
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Resource Simple Questions, Simple Answers Thread
- Thread starter Jordy
- Start date
as my water . So I will probably have to use separate checks.Ty for the answer
Is there something that can check bothand
(barring
).If yes what would be the best ev spread for it.
I could also check things in other ways. See, you have Slowbro, right? Slowbro can also utilise Colbur Berry + Body Press to lure Weavile. Your team on team preview can look more exposed to a threat than how it actually is, a thing you can use to your advantage. You can lure offensive Pokémon as well. For extra example, the same Colbur Berry + Body Press Slowbro can also be used in the same way that ironwater said he uses Toxapex: Toxic the Volcarona and switch to a proper check to stall it out. A final set could be Body Press - Future Sight - Teleport - Toxic, which it may fit only a specific type of team, but it doesn't matter: if you have that type of team, you're golden.Well I already have
Ty for the answer
Another way to check Pokémon is done offensively. It is less repeatable, but in the context of a game it can prevent that troublesome Pokémon from making moves. For example, the absolute goat that is
, even at 1%, will always prevent Volcarona from sweeping. Even if Volcarona could setup on 5/6 of your team, that 6th on 1 HP is a total roadblock. The same Crawdaunt can withstand Weavile in a pinch due to resisting its STABs and living a +2 hit from full health. You could be even more effective if you have some ways to bring Weavile into Aqua Jet range (i.e. Rocky Helmet on stuff), which does 68.3% min. You could also give some extra EVs to Crawdaunt's Defense or HP if extremely necessary to ensure some rolls.The main point I'm trying to convey is that the desired outcome of checking Volcarona and Weavile can be executed in different ways, and since we are talking about two relevant OU Pokémon, it can involve a little bit of creativity, adaptations and even running otherwise suboptimal set that ONLY work for the team you're using. Of course, Colbur Toxic Slowbro and Choice Band Crawdaunt are just examples given to an example scenario.
Tank chomp or Swampert
Defensively, Swampert and Tank Chomp are effective, not passive Stealth Rock setter. Swamper offers momentum with flip turn and yawn, Garchomp can cripple checks with toxic and flamethrower, while both check heatran and volcarona.
Offensively, Nidoking is quite good being an offensive ground type that only appreciates grassy terrain. Post kyurem meta changes might give Nidoking a good chance, with drop in blissey usage and new structures popping up like lando+slowbro+steel types. Ou bulky water types can still get blasted by rilla and Nidoking coverage such as tbolt, earth power and sludge wave. Another interesting (and even less viable one) is zygarde 10%, who can catch flying types while clicking a ground stab thus weakening rillaboom's checks. It also fits toxic quite easily on a cb set, allowing it to cripple shared checks like buzzwole and tangrowth.
Hi all, kinda new here (lurked for a while many years ago). Just got Brilliant Diamond and am trying to figure out IV breeding. It's my first time ever IV breeding. Spent the last week scouring youtube and the internet on the basics, and I think I have it somewhat down. I am struggling with the following (mods, please move this if this is not in the appropriate thread - I didn't know where to post this):
I'm using the Bidoof method. I am trying to get a competitive Garchomp, Blaziken and Tyranitar for now. My best Bidoofs are as follows:
Male - Holds D Knot:
HP - 11-20
Attack - 30
Defense - 11-20
Sp. Atk - 31
Sp. Def - 21-29
Speed - 31
Female - Holds Everstone (Adamant Nature):
HP - 11-20
Attack - 21-29
Defense - 11-20
Sp. Atk - 31
Sp. Def - 21-29
Speed - 31
I am stuck on what I need to do next. These two combos are the best I have been able to breed for a couple days now. Should I be using the PokeRadar to look for a female or male with a 31 in attack? Not sure if I keep breeding these two or if I need to catch another bidoof with a 31 in the missing stat(s). I guess I would be happy with 31 in attack.. not sure how important defense, sp def, and hp at 31 are (obviously I'd love to have 31 in all, but I am trying to figure out the effort with getting a perfect mon). Not to mention that this is only Bidoof.. need to do this with Torchic, Nidoran, etc. etc.
Would appreciate any advice! Thanks!
I'm using the Bidoof method. I am trying to get a competitive Garchomp, Blaziken and Tyranitar for now. My best Bidoofs are as follows:
Male - Holds D Knot:
HP - 11-20
Attack - 30
Defense - 11-20
Sp. Atk - 31
Sp. Def - 21-29
Speed - 31
Female - Holds Everstone (Adamant Nature):
HP - 11-20
Attack - 21-29
Defense - 11-20
Sp. Atk - 31
Sp. Def - 21-29
Speed - 31
I am stuck on what I need to do next. These two combos are the best I have been able to breed for a couple days now. Should I be using the PokeRadar to look for a female or male with a 31 in attack? Not sure if I keep breeding these two or if I need to catch another bidoof with a 31 in the missing stat(s). I guess I would be happy with 31 in attack.. not sure how important defense, sp def, and hp at 31 are (obviously I'd love to have 31 in all, but I am trying to figure out the effort with getting a perfect mon). Not to mention that this is only Bidoof.. need to do this with Torchic, Nidoran, etc. etc.
Would appreciate any advice! Thanks!
Hey maverick18294, welcome to Smogon! This forum is dedicated to Smogon OverUsed tier, for ingame questions the right place is the Casual Play section (here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/#casual-play.26). I'm not used to this section, but I would assume you can try asking in this SQSA: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...item-requests-etc-go-here-no-hacking.3656229/
Hey ironwater, thanks for that! Will post there.
Are there any Sun + Rain Teams // Double Weather Teams? I want to experiment.
Urshifu's offensive profile is far more advantageous in the metagame, especially thanks to a stronger Fighting STAB and access to priority.
Red Raven
I COULD BE BANNED!
To add on to Finch's answer, close combat is also a far more reliable move than focus blast ever will be and Urshifu also can't be protect scouted unless you run a move that doesn't benefit from its ability
To add on to Finch and Red Raven’s answers, party of why Urshifu is great is U-Turn, which lets Urshifu pivot against forced switches easily and takes a decent chunk out of Slowbro and Slowking. U-Turn fits easily in every Urshifu set except the rare Bulk Up variant.
Keldeo did get Flip Turn this generation but it has more shortcomings. Keldeo always uses Secret Sword and Hydro Pump, but it has several decent options for the other slots in Icy Wind, Scald, Focus Blast, and of course Flip Turn. Keldeo’s opportunity cost for having a pivot move in its set is greater than that of Urshifu. In addition, Keldeo’s Flip Turn is really weak since it’s physical and does no meaningful chip damage to any of its checks and counters, and it can even be stopped entirely by Gastrodon’s Water Absorb. U-Turn has no such drawbacks.
I do think Keldeo is underrated in this meta, especially since Lati@s aren’t relevant. Specs is fine, scarf is usable I guess, but I find Calm Mind sets the most interesting. There’s SubCM Scald Secret Sword, SubCM Scald Taunt, CM Scald Secret Sword Taunt, etc, all of which are a pain for opponents to deal with.
Red Raven
I COULD BE BANNED!
I saw in a facebook post from smogon about a set on Regieleki. In that post, Leki runs 172 speed evs with +speed nature so that in can outrun scarf Kartana however, running this thing thru the calcs, it only needs 160 evs with +speed nature to accomplish that. So, why does it run 172 speed evs?
Scarf Gengar, Latias, and Latios -- all of which are 1 base speed above Kartana.
Generally this sort of thing is an awful idea. The weathers end up clashing, and you end up far worse than you would if you committed to either weather.
I'd like to ask, is there a fundamental reason as to why accuracy lowering moves such as Sand Attack and Mud Slap were/are not included in the recent Evasion Clause implementations, alongside the evasion boosting abilities and items?
As a follow-up question, to produce some context: What would be the defining disparity between -
Seems to me, that at least, the two moves I mentioned ought to fall under Evasion Clause, as they have no merit outside of accuracy checks.
As a follow-up question, to produce some context: What would be the defining disparity between -
- Cosmic Power Gothitelle and Double Team Gothitelle
- Shadow Tag, Charm + Confide Gothitelle and Block + Mud Slap Mew
Seems to me, that at least, the two moves I mentioned ought to fall under Evasion Clause, as they have no merit outside of accuracy checks.
Shadow Tag is already banned so no Gothitelle / Gothorita stuff.
Mud Slap and Double Team are basically never used due to being extremely inconsistent and - most importantly - because using them wastes turns, whereas Sand Veil + Bright Powder are basically a passive luck charm which makes them more dangerous.
Evasion as a whole is luck based, but forcing your odds by using your turns is far less reliable - and thus less used - than having it as a passive ability. For this reason (I believe) no one considered evasion moves when it comes to the Evasion Clause.
As for the disparity between Cosmic Power and Evasion, thus between needing a crit and needing to land moves, boosting your evasion protects you from not just attacks, but also from moves like Toxic, Taunt and Trick, the most common means to fight against Cosmic Power users, which would make the evasion way more aggravating.
Should evasion boosting move theoretically be put under evasion clause? Yes. Is anyone using them though? I personally have never seen them. Since the council operates on complaints and what's being used, I don't think anything needs to happen, although it could be done just for theoretical consistency.
Last edited:
Moves lowering accuracy are not an issue as you can just switch out, whereas when a Pokemon boost its Evasiveness you are forced to face a mon who can dodge everything.
Now, for your comparison, Block is extremely bad when compared to Shadow Tag, because most of the time your opponent won't stay in with a mon that lose the 1v1 and thus it only work with lure kind of sets (plus you need to sacrifice one moveslot). Yes Block + a move lowering accuracy can be annoying but like you need 2 turns to setup this and you are left with only 2 useful moves with means you can't do much else basically.
Also SLDR, evasion boosting move are banned (no Lilliput Blissey) and I think the question was only about accuracy dropping moves.
Oh my bad I can't read apparently. That only makes the unreliability issue even more glaring tbh as you said as well
Thanks for the answers SLDR and ironwater, to keep a long reply short:
I am well aware aware of the practical differences, in that trapping moves require a turn, whereas trapping abilities are automatic, along with how as SLDR said, certain useful status moves such as Taunt, Encore and Trick would be more difficult to pull off on a target with raised evasion over a target with raised defenses. I'm excluding Toxic, on the basis that Toxic from Poison types ignores evasiveness.
If it's about counterplay, you could equally Roar out or Haze both types of stat boosts, with a small but notable difference in the possibility of using Guard Swap versus the impossibility of using Heart Swap
Sure enough, the combination of a trapping move and an accuracy lowering move, Block and Mud Slap, is more often than not a liability, but I don't view this as a question of practice, rather of principle. I don't think usage, which is to say rarity, is determining or success therein, as these are grounds for the removal of OHKO Clause, which were discussed at length during the Diamond and Pearl era.
Ultimately, my question is, both Double Team and Mud Slap serve no purpose as anything but accuracy checks (unlike Acupressure), so ought they not equally in principle be discouraged and banned?
I am well aware aware of the practical differences, in that trapping moves require a turn, whereas trapping abilities are automatic, along with how as SLDR said, certain useful status moves such as Taunt, Encore and Trick would be more difficult to pull off on a target with raised evasion over a target with raised defenses. I'm excluding Toxic, on the basis that Toxic from Poison types ignores evasiveness.
If it's about counterplay, you could equally Roar out or Haze both types of stat boosts, with a small but notable difference in the possibility of using Guard Swap versus the impossibility of using Heart Swap
Sure enough, the combination of a trapping move and an accuracy lowering move, Block and Mud Slap, is more often than not a liability, but I don't view this as a question of practice, rather of principle. I don't think usage, which is to say rarity, is determining or success therein, as these are grounds for the removal of OHKO Clause, which were discussed at length during the Diamond and Pearl era.
Ultimately, my question is, both Double Team and Mud Slap serve no purpose as anything but accuracy checks (unlike Acupressure), so ought they not equally in principle be discouraged and banned?
Despite me forgetting my text comprehension before and making a silly mistake about the existing Evasion Clause, your question goes back to my previous statement as originally intended (only needed a small correction in red).
I'd say they should and possibly ought to, since they operate under the same uncompetitive, luck-based gimmick of evasion and accuracy, so they fit the "principle criteria". The most likely reason I can think of as to why they aren't banned to this day is the already addressed incosistency and awful opportunity cost of using such accuracy lowering moves, which results in little to no outcry from the playerbase reaching the OU council, which usually is what leads to action being taken in the first place. This is obviously presented and re-stated not as a contrast to your (in my opinion correct) assertion, but rather as the ipothetical reason behind the status quo. Hopefully this time I fully answered your question, although a member of the OU council would definitely be able to give you a more satisfying answer especially when it comes to the "why" of things.
Bans in our metagames are almost always based not only in principle but also in practice. We'd probably consider grouping Magnet Pull with Shadow Tag if Volcarona got it, but it is not broken or "uncompetitive" in any form we see in our metagame. I don't think we would have banned King's Rock if Cloyster didn't exist and its best abuser was Beat Up Weavile. The actual viability of a move / set of moves is heavily factored in when we approach tiering. And in this regard, there's a massive difference between niche/gimmicky sets that see some usage, and sets like Block / Sand Attack Mew that are so bad that most people have probably never seen it once.
In principle, perhaps. In practice.. nobody really cares enough either way to do anything, because it doesn't get used by anything.
Goodbye & Thanks
Thrown in a fire?
I haven't played SS in a long time but I was wondering if Mantine had any viability? I remember a team was used with it during the laddering phase of OLT VII (Tricking uses it against Luthier here, if anyone wants to see the team, although that battle doesn't really showcase Mantine much) and it was always annoying to run into then. I get that's over a year ago and it isn't listed on the VR but I was just curious if it has a niche, since it offers good utility (Defog, Toxic, Haze, if that's worth running on it) and can check some prominent threats like Specs Pult, Tran (although Tran with Toxic and Taunt could be a problem), offensive Torn (not sure if that's really run though), Blacephalon, Volcanion (and I guess rain as a whole), and Volcarona. Mantine can also help with Urshifu with enough defensive investment:
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Mantine: 158-186 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I know that Mantine probably isn't great, if usable at all, but I think it's an interesting mon and wanted to know if any shifts in the meta (like possibly Kyurem getting banned) has made it any better. I'd imagine it would also need support from something like Aroma Clef as well to give it the best chance at working.
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Mantine: 158-186 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I know that Mantine probably isn't great, if usable at all, but I think it's an interesting mon and wanted to know if any shifts in the meta (like possibly Kyurem getting banned) has made it any better. I'd imagine it would also need support from something like Aroma Clef as well to give it the best chance at working.