Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

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Even though I personally feel that Raichu is a bit too low, I don't think that it should have such huge jump. I mean, it isn't as self-sufficient as Mega Gyarados, Suicune and Breelom, for example.

For now I would aim more for the C- rank, to be frank. It seems to fit it more, due to needing a huge amount of support to work properly, even when the main supporting Pokémon is A+ Rank.
 
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Leo

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I say endure shedinja because of z moves bypassing protect, and if you no longer have an appropriate scout move you do not have a niche. While it does leave it vulnerable to status and knock off, I can safely say this set can thrive along the aid of fini. I do believe it should drop ranks, but I do not believe it should be outright ignored with the rest of the D ranks because it really does have an impact on teambuilding when it comes to choosing z moves.
Just wanted to point out that there's no reason to use endure shedinja since nobody's going to use a z-move on shed instead of just ohkoing it with a regular move lol. I still agree with it going down, shedinja literally does the same it did last gen which is take a team slot just to wall a bunch of mons and literally do nothing back besides will-o-wisping back for 6% a turn, which is actually better for your opponent if you burn a special attacker cause now it can't be crippled by tspikes/toxic/twave (assuming you're using stall which is the only playstyle where it is usable). I don't see why you would use this in your stall team instead of using something that can actually provide some utility taking into account that requires so much support and prediction just to do nothing and eventually die.
 
How is M-Metagross S-Tier material? I think it's fine exactly where it is with Magearna, Tapu Fini, and Celesteela. I haven't seen anything from it so far that puts it above those pokemon and its certainly not anywhere near Genesect and Lele to me.
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
I'm honestly going to have to agree with the upgrade of Volcarona to A- tier.

1) Hazard control is in a very good state right now. Tapu Fini, Mega Sableye, Skarmory, Excadrill, and Zapdos are all very good Pokemon. Bisharp has become a lot less potent than it was in XY, therefore defog use is less risky too.
2) Fire Blast / Giga Drain / HP Ground @ Firium Z offers the best coverage and wallbreaking potential Volcarona has ever enjoyed. Inferono Overdrive works over Latios adequately, and Tyranitar is much less common, meaning giving up Bug Buzz aint half bad. Bulky Tyranitar doesn't even exist anymore, and as such Giga Drain can serve anti-tyranitar purposes better than ever, too.
3) Talonflame is out of the picture and Pinsir was nerfed making it much less common
4) A few new and common Pokemon like Buzzwole, Tapu Bulu, Magearna and Celesteela are set up bait.
5) Flame Body is great for punishing Pheromosa U-turn spam

These factors combined and Volcarona is actually quite the formidable sweeper, much better than its probably ever been.
 
I think Mandibuzz should go up to C+. Not a huge change, I know, and it DOES need Rocks to be off the field to be able to consistently beat what it wants to beat, but it's able to beat all Mega Scizor, Mega Metagross, non-Dazzling Gleam Mega Alakazam, non-Flynium/Rockium Landorus-T, Sand Rush Drill, DD Mega Charizard X, Banded Hoopa-U, non-Stone Edge Banded Tapu Bulu, Jolly Mega Pinsir, etc.

Yea, Rocks need to be gone, a weakness to Fairy/Electric sucks with Koko and Lele running around, but stuff like SpDef Excadrill is a great partner, and a flat immunity to Psychic is really valuable to boot. Plus, if Mandibuzz isn't running Defog, it gets room for Roost/Foul Play/Taunt/U-Turn, which means it isn't as much of a momentum sink and can actually Taunt stuff like BD Azumarill, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Chansey, Hippo, etc. and get momentum on them with U-Turn.
 
Just wanted to point out that there's no reason to use endure shedinja since nobody's going to use a z-move on shed instead of just ohkoing it with a regular move lol. I still agree with it going down, shedinja literally does the same it did last gen which is take a team slot just to wall a bunch of mons and literally do nothing back besides will-o-wisping back for 6% a turn, which is actually better for your opponent if you burn a special attacker cause now it can't be crippled by tspikes/toxic/twave (assuming you're using stall which is the only playstyle where it is usable). I don't see why you would use this in your stall team instead of using something that can actually provide some utility taking into account that requires so much support and prediction just to do nothing and eventually die.
Sheddy isn't supposed to spread burns, thought. Or not primary. It's supposed to create switches, to lure in potential threats while you pivot into something which deals with these switch ins like Duggy or at least force them out for that sweet additional 12.5% pebble damage. Will O Wisp is just there to catch potential switch-ins which operate from the physical side.

Also, Sheddys mere existence in the team preview changes the way your opponent plays, especially when paired with Duggy or Sableye. They now try not to let thier status users die, try to desperatly keep Hazards on the field, try to keep thier Heatrans or whatever can break through Sheddy alive etc. Duggy makes sure that they worry about thier Heatrans or other mons more, Salbeye discourages Toxic spam

Also, it actually doesn't need that much support. Just keep the pebbles and the bad weather off the field. Status can be scouted by protect anyway. If you make sure that this happens, it will put it's weight onto the team.
 
Please rank Alomomola asap. It's been pulling a lot of weight for me and is a really good answer to physical Steel types (megagross). Being able to wish makes it a good partner for stuff like Alolan marowak, Alolan muk, Tyranitar who can all check special threats but don't have any recovery. Somewhere in the C ranks seems fine cause it's still shat on by most special attacks.

Also how would people feel about Celesteela moving down a sub-rank? I find it tends to be overwhelmed by some of the things it tries to check like lando-t (rockium can bamboozle it) opposing Grass types wear it down with Leech Seed (subseed bulu and serperior can sub stall it), even Tapu Lele wears it down over time. It can't check Garchomp too well because of firium either. Speaking of Firium, Volcarona is godly and becoming more popular so there's that too. Admittedly it can use protect to scout for these things but that just opens up 50/50s (and it still takes a bit of damage). It's also just one of those mons that kinda just sits there and does nothing to stall teams. If you want to talk about Autotomize it's matchup based and not super consistent imo. It just doesn't seem to put in the same work that other A+ ranks do. I'm not denying that it's good though but it's lost a lot of luster since one month ago when Lando-I was shitting on balance. Feel free to refute me if I'm wrong
 

Srn

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I'll stick to just a few nominations seeing as how this thread is taking a nosedive out the gates
Mega Venusaur to A+

I say this because Mega Venu has gotten a lot better in this metagame, namely due to the burn nerf. In oras, it was taxing for mega venu to deal with keldeos on every team throwing scalds and taking 12.5% each turn, then dealing with rocks, maybe spikes, sand, and a bunch of other crap. But come SM, scald usage is at an all time low, keldeo and rotom-w are nowhere to be seen (atleast from my experiences), tapu fini is setting misty terrain and defogging all hazards proficiently, burns are only doing 6.25%, and ttar is underrated and relatively rare.
In addition, there are many new threats that mega venusaur checks, such as tapu koko, tapu fini, tapu bulu, ash greninja, pheromosa, buzzwole, and magearna, making it a good blanket check to a lot of threats and a good addition to bulky offense, probably the most solid playstyle rn.

I think all these make it more valuable to a team and viable in battle than mons like rotom-w, zygarde, etc

Terrakion to A-

Terrakion has received one of the greatest buffs from z-moves in continental crush. Honestly, that's all that really changed for it. The meta is pretty hostile to it, with all the new fairies in tapu's and metagross sporting 350 base speed immediately, but rockium-z SD terrakion blasting through almost all of its previous checks and all of its new checks as well is enough reason for it to be where it was at the end of ORAS.
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 399-471 (101.2 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 196+ Def Tapu Fini: 399-471 (116.3 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Landorus-Therian: 340-402 (89.2 - 105.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 312-367 (102.9 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 331-391 (99.1 - 117%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Scizor-Mega: 391-462 (113.9 - 134.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Bulu: 382-451 (111 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 411-484 (113.2 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 196 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 439-517 (108.6 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 486-573 (91 - 107.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


Its remarkable how terrakion, that would have failed to OHKO any of the targets in oras, is now able to blow past them. The best part? IT DOESN'T FUCKING MISS.
its speed tier may be less relevant, and there are many new threats that can revenge kill it, but as a wallbreaker it can now put much more pressure on bulky offense than it could before, blasting through dedicated physical walls for teammates such as zard-x to exploit. I think that can let terrakion into A- where it was when oras ended.

Nidoking shouldn't be C+ imo either, slightly checking stuff like magearna, tapu koko, and pheromosa is a cool niche on top of its still great wallbreaking prowess, its more viable than stuff like slowking, togekiss, or mega-aero for sure. bump it up to B- atleast.
 

Asek

Banned deucer.
Marowak - Alolan to B / B+

Everytime I ran into this mon it just didnt do its job effectively, and with genesect gone a lot of the reason to run it has gone as well I feel. In theory I guess people are running it as 'break' to voltturn teams, but in reality marowak takes the u-turn then..... the opponent goes into lando-t or something and marowak has been forced out again. Being immune to volt switch lends marowak a bit more credibility, until you realise that all the relevant volt-turners right now are using u-turn instead of volt switch , most noticeably tapu koko preferring u-turn. I think the only relative pokemon that will be using volt switch right now are magnezone and rotom-w, with rotom-w dealing with marowak a extremely easily, and magnezone rarely being part of a proper voltturn chain. Not helping the A-Wak case is the fact that mons who it should be walling are running Earthquake as coverage for other meta threats which conveniantly also cover A-Wak, such as buzzwole carrying Earthquake for toxapex, and mega metagross doing the same to be able to hit toxapex magnezone and a-wak in one moveslot.

Another gripe I have with this mon is just how few times it can actually switch into u-turn throughout an actual battle. I understand how stealth rock has become noticeably easier to keep off the field in sumo, especially with how good fini is right now, but a lot of the time A-Wak will be switching into the mons it counter with rocks up, and it doesnt even have leftovers to help patch itself back up over the course of the game once rocks are indeed off the field. Consider for an example a common situation where A-Wak switches into pheromosa to take a u-turn. If rocks are up on the field, a wak is going to lose roughly 33%~ of its health simply from taking that one attack + the rocks damage. By the time this happens twice in a match, A-Wak has such a pittance of health left that from that point it has become largely a liability as the most likely situation for it from then on is becoming beast boost bait. Over the course of the match A-Wak just can't deal with voltturn due to the nature of voltturn itself compounding a-waks numerous exploitable weaknesses.

Finally theres a large amount of spam on the special side of the attacking spectrum from pokemon such as Ash-Greninja spamming d pulse, to lele psychic amongst others, and a wak cant take any of these types of attacks at all really. People were running it in the genesect era under the guise that it was a handy check to multiple metagame threats, but in reality I think the current meta is anything but harsh for a-wak, and its mediocre bulk especially on the special side hinders its use as a utility mon with usefull immunities and resistances.

Although in theory a-wak can provide a safe switch in and counter prominant u-turn mons like m-scizor, phero and tapu-koko, its many weaknesses and the fact that all these mons are simply u-turning into one of the many metagame threats that a-wak cant deal with lead to me believing it isn't worthy of being in the A ranks at all.

Also, just as a quality of life changes to these threads can I suggest the viability council ban all discussion on pokemon moving amongst the C+ to D ranks (at least for now)? I think its pretty easy to say that nobody really cares whether something is C- or C rank.
 
Just one nomination

Rotom-H to C

Rotom-H cannot rid itself of the fact that it is for most teams outclassed by Rotom-W, due to its Stealth Rock weakness. However, putting it in the D rank dismisses its one outstanding role, which is its ability to generate momentum off of steel types. The influence of Tapu Lele has left OU filled with a mountain of steel types including Celesteela, Jirachi, Ferrothorn, Magnezone, etc, all of which are threatened out by an Overheat. Levitate nullifies its ground weakness, allowing it to switch in on steel types without fearing an earthquake, save for Excadrill. An important advantage of Rotom-H over Rotom-W is that it retains its electric resistance, which allows it to in most cases fully counter Magnezone. I have been running a defensive core with Jirachi and Rotom-H that generates easy advantage off of the common Tapu Lele and Magnezone core. If Magnezone switches in on Jirachi, I can U-Turn to Rotom-H, who can keep the momentum going with a Volt Switch, or hit something hard with an Overheat.

To be honest the only issues I had with Rotom-H was making sure that Stealth Rock was off the field. However, if rocks is kept off the field, Rotom-H does its job spectacularly well. It has won me several games against teams that simply were not equipped to deal with it. Although in most cases Rotom-W is better, Rotom-H is still fantastic, and deserves better than a D rank.
 

Ema Skye

Work!
Seconding a drop for Marowak-Alola, and I think B is probably the best spot. The meta has adapted to it and the result is that everything it used to check has a way of beating it. Any kind of defensive role it tries to fulfill ends up falling victim to Marowak's lack of any recovery (including Leftovers), less than adequate defenses (60/110/80 is honestly mediocre, especially on the special side which people love to use Marowak for) and, most importantly, the Stealth Rock weakness, which is honestly terrible for any pivot. Flare Blitz is also its strongest STAB attack and, when adding up how easy it is to damage Marowak, it really results in Marowak getting KOed sooner.

Any offensive stat is bad outside of Trick Room thanks to that speed stat. Most of the meta outspeeds it and, thanks to its poor bulk, it's never able to get off a hit.
 

Scribble

formerly Dartrix - Joker
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A- -> B+/B: Agreed. While it does indeed check/counter a lot of threats in the meta, the rise of Lando-T and Tapu Fini and the removal of Genesect haven't done it any favors. It can be worn down incredibly easily since it is Rocks and Pursuit weak and has no form of reliable recovery. It doesn't put in as much work as it has done in the past in this meta. The mons in A- just seem to all be performing better than it (excluding Zydoge imo). I'm not sure which rank it should drop to, but either or are a better fit for it than A-.

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A -> A+: Agreed. The meta is so overwhelmingly in Mega Venusaur's favor atm. It deals with all of the Tapu bar Lele, Pheromosa, non SSSS Lando-T, Magnezone, Ash Greninja, Magearna, etc. It's incredibly splashable for a Mega, and is definitely deserving of A+. There isn't much else to say about this that hasn't already been said.

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A+ -> S: Disagreed. Mega Metagross is not anywhere as centralizing as Lando-T and Tapu Lele imo. Those 2 can be thrown on any team outside of stall and do work, whereas Mega Metagross doesn't have that kind of luxury. It takes up a Mega slot, cannot use Z moves like Lando-T (and Lele to an extent) can, is probably the best relevant example of 4MSS, and only really has one set. Lando-T and Lele both have numerous viable sets they can use while Mega Metagross doesn't. It can use Agility, but that's about it. When teambuilding, I never find myself having to worry about this as much as I do Lando-T or Tapu Lele. While yes, it is really good, it just doesn't seem to be defining the meta like Lando-T and Tapu Lele are.
 
Mega Gyarados > B/B+, Starmie > C+: Agree I'm just as surprised about this one as Colonel M was... there is clearly not a standard for each rank. Mega Gyara is actually really good and I don't know why it's all the way down in B-; not to mention the fact that Greninja exists and so Starmie should almost never be used. The one thing that Starmie has going for it is Rapid Spin and with mons like Zapdos and Excadrill being really good, it isn't necessary to resort to Starmie in the current metagame. Definitely a really weird choice on the ranking team's part.
Why are you comparing Starmie to Greninja? They have different typings and perform different roles. Starmie isn't used for sweeping, it's used to remove hazards and provide status ailments to cripple them
 
Nihilego A- --->B+

This might be a controversial opinion, but quite honestly, Nihilego is a bit underwhelming as both a rocker and an attacker. Suicide lead is pretty bad tbh, facing competition from other stealth rockers, like landorus, that can come in quite a few times. Toxic spikes isn't very great either, with a plethora of hazard removal, as well as poison types like amoongus and toxapex being common. Choice specs on the other hand is probably its better set, however it still has quite a few problems. For one, its stabs, while interesting, can be rather easily taken advantage of, allowing steels to freely check a nihilego locked into power gem or sludge wave. Also, it is pretty prediction reliant too, as it needs to accurately predict the opponents move, otherwise it gets forced out due to its low defense stat. Also, unlike other wallbreakers, such as hoopa, it can't freely spam its stabs, causing it to face quite a bit of competition with other wallbreakers. While it's speed tier is nice, it still leaves it outsped by quite a few very common pokemon that can easily KO it in return, such as pheromosa, scarf landorus, metagross, both greninja and ash greninja among others. Its choice scarf set on the other hand oftentimes doesnt do enough damage, leaving it easily walled and/or checked by mons like heatran and celesteela (specially defensive is 3hko'd by thunderbolt), as well as jirachi, ferrothorn (non hp fire) and more. Finally, it fits much better in B+, with mons such as gengar, keldeo, and kyurem-b, all of which are effective, but are somewhat held back by their problems, just like Nihilego. as such, nihilego should drop
 

Colonel M

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For what it's worth I'm not 100% sure if Mega Gyarados is quite deserving of B. It is a powerful and somewhat flexible Mega Pokemon that, left unchecked, does a lot. Still, the prevelance of Mega Venusaur makes it a bit harder to sweep - this is especially true with Jolly being mandatory on Gyarados. My major thing was Starmie needs to get out of B and into Cs more than anything. I'm not horribly opposed to putting Mega Gyarados back in B, though. I even debate Mega Gyarados really outstyling Mega Sharpedo by a whole tier considering Strong Jaws Psychic Fangs cheeses through Mega Venusaur and Amoonguss.

As for other Pokemon mentioned I will also voice seconds on Volcarona. QD Firium Z does a fuckton of damage to offensive teams and is a tricky Pokemon to really take down. Tapu Fini is an awesome support Pokemon for it while also occasionally liking Tapu Lele's Psychic Terrain to block priority. Though Scarfers like Scarf Garchomp and Scarf Nihilego can shut down a +1 Volcarona it will likely leave something dead or severely wounded in the process. Flame Body is super troll too since it means gambling a 30% burn rate when killing Volcarona with contact moves. It's very good in the meta and definitely deserves to rise. Tyranitar and Azumarill being uncommon help its cause too.

No comment on Rotom-W. It's still a very good pivot and burn's effect of lowering Attack is big for keeping Rotom-W and its teammates alive. Bloom Doom Heatran is a thorn for Rotom-W, though. It's still good and somewhat splashable.

Absolutely no comment on Rotom-H. Can we talk about good and relevant mons instead, please?

One that I think deserves more discussion, too, is Mega Metagross . It's gotten a lot better in the transition of generations between the Speed boost and opportunities to abuse terrains such as Psychic Terrain. It's the best Mega Pokemon in the tier and, more often than not, one of the Pokemon people need to be able to address. Even though Bulky Mega Scizor and a few other Pokemon can check or counter Mega Metagross it does unload a can of whoop ass right off the bat while being difficult to switch into when you don't know the last two moves Mega Metagross has. It's a very strong Mega Pokemon with very few flaws, and I actually am somewhat ready to accept Mega Metagross as an S Rank.

Finally, I would like to counter the arguments presented against Nihilego. Nihilego's best set is Choice Scarf with a close second being Choice Specs. All Out Attacker is not even that bad since Nihilego has a decent movepool and good enough Special Attack to use what it needs. Even though Focus Sash is the best item on Nihilego leads Life Orb and Rockium Z can really catch opponents off-guard. Life Orb Hidden Power Ice OHKOes threats such as Landorus-T and, thanks to its STABs and access to Thunderbolt, isn't the easiest Pokemon to remove its entry hazards. Only Excadrill can safely remove Nihilego hazards. Tapu Fini does not enjoy repeated Sludge Waves, Skarmory does not enjoy Thunderbolts, and Zapdos hates Power Gem.

Scarf Nihilego is a good snowball wincon too since its Speed is rather trolly and a lot of Pokemon beyond Nihilego's Speed tier rarely carry a Choice Scarf. Only Pheromosa is common enough to use it while Terrakion, Keldeo, and Gengar are rarer. Furthermore, Lele can support Nihilego from being revenge killed by Ash Greninja Water Shuriken if desired.

Edit: Forgot to vouch for mah boi Mega Venusaur to A+. Writing that analysis and using it, even though brief, showed me it is one hell of a flexible Pokemon right now. If a team lacks a Mega chances are Mega Venusaur can fit in it.
 
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For what it's worth I'm not 100% sure if Mega Gyarados is quite deserving of B. It is a powerful and somewhat flexible Mega Pokemon that, left unchecked, does a lot. Still, the prevelance of Mega Venusaur makes it a bit harder to sweep - this is especially true with Jolly being mandatory on Gyarados. My major thing was Starmie needs to get out of B and into Cs more than anything. I'm not horribly opposed to putting Mega Gyarados back in B, though. I even debate Mega Gyarados really outstyling Mega Sharpedo by a whole tier considering Strong Jaws Psychic Fangs cheeses through Mega Venusaur and Amoonguss.
Looks like Mega Gyarados and Mega Sharpedo are both in B-, which I think is fair. Mega Sharpedo should not be ranked lower than Mega Gyarados since it can afford to run Adamant and still outspeed the stuff it needs to after +1, while hitting harder with Crunch and being able to muscle past normal checks/counters like Azumarill, Mega Venusaur, Keldeo, and Amoonguss with Psychic Fangs (which is absurdly useful).
 
Here's something I think should rise:

Ninetales-Alolan: C+ --> B-


First of all, this spot in the VR should really just be called "Aurora Veil"; Ninetales itself doesn't offer too many benefits beyond the move, but the sheer brokeness of aurora veil makes it worth running. It only has one real set, but the utility of single-turn dual-screens is too good for it to be ranked with Shed and Whimsicott.

I don't want to go into too much depth here. Sergeant Spooky made an excellent post in the discussion thread devoted to ninetales that explains its qualities in much more depth. Please, check it out:
Alola Ninetales

In short, it pairs very well with some of the most viable and best setup sweepers in the tier, such as Char X and Mega Gyarados. Thanks to Ninetales' speed, you can usually set aurora veil at least twice a match. This is it's one and only niche, but it is a significant one. Honestly, aurora veil + setup a borderline cheese strat.

It does sport hail as well, but that is at most an anti-meta feature than can be used to counter other weathers, and is by no means a selling point. Plus, you should give it a try -- it's tons of fun.
 
some thoughts: mega metagross is a serious contender for s, by far the strongest mega right now and easily a top 3 threat. the instant 350 speed cannot be overstated. it doesn't NEED to run zhb but if it does and there's a lele around like there often is then good god it's strong. boltbeam coverage is amazing, earthquake is amazing, bullet punch is amazing, I've even faced a rock polisher that was pretty dangerous. I'm sure you could also use pursuit if you really wanted to. hell if you're worried about it getting worn down like it sometimes did last gen then you can use bulu and that's that. mega zor is not in a great place in the meta ananyone who has played sm will tell you how amazing megagross is and I think s rank would be more than fitting.

latios is a lot less common than last gen (not that it isn't good but keldeo's viability plummeted and lati just fits on less teams right now) and this makes charizard y almost impossible to switch into for any team lacking it or toxapex/chansey. gene leaving means it has one less poke it threatens to incinerate but it still gets a ton of entry, has pretty good speed for the meta (outrunning lele and landorus is amazing) and is overall in prime position to blast shit. the great defog addition of tapu fini helps it out as well. zardy teams tend to struggle against megagross (like most teams) but other than that, holy cow it is powerful. I think it warrants at least A rank

choice scarf nihilego is very good. outrunning scarfchomp, who's really strong right now, is nice, and in general it cleans well and is a decent check to a lot of dangerous stuff.

I've seen alola wak have a lot of use in combating stall so I'd hesitate to drop it for now...

mega venusaur is also extremely good. definitely an A+ contender. I would move amoonguss up to A, it is similarly useful.

buzzwole and celesteela each seem a rank too high but maybe that's just me
 

Duck Chris

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Great to get this thread going again, the offensive threats at the top of these rankings really reflect how fast and cool I've found this metagame, with it's fair share of defensive threats as well.

Agree with Volcarona to A- and Mega Metagross to S as has been discussed above. Would also like to add the following


Salamence B+ -> A-
Supersonic Skystrike salamence is a really strong threat right now. Salamence has the capacity to break past so many of the tier's top threats after just one dragon dance. Barring Celesteela or Skarmory nothing is taking a +1 Supersonic Skystrike plus an outrage or earthquake, and that just gets him going. We'll see how much he ends up being used in SPL but for sure I saw him all over the suspect ladder. Basically does Mega Pinsir's job but actually outspeeds Metagross, scarf Lele, and Tapu Koko after setting up, which Pinsir doesn't.

Also probably worth saying that Mega Pinsir isn't as good this gen as it was, probably could get moved down. If not for the fact that it's attacks are weaker, loses to one of the top scarfers (psychic terrain stops priority), checked by Koko and Metagross (mega buff), it also has an opportunity cost of not using Mega Metagross which is one of the most useful pokemon in the metagame right now. Mega Pinsir A- -> B+
 
my opinions on some noms:
mega metagross ->S: agree, using this with tapu lele is fucking broken, there's no switches to this thing, and now with psychc terrain allowing you to 2 shot lando-t with zen headbutt the 4mss from last gen doesn't exist anymore, with zen headbutt/meteor mash/hammer arm/thunder punch you can just destroy anything that have an HP stat(fucking shedinja);
zygarde-10% A- -> B+/B: agree, it's a nice mon, but it doesn't hit that strong for a choice band user, it's mega frail and have a lot of switchs, definetly isn't on A- level of mon;
nihiliego A- ->B+: agree, it's better than zygarde, but so many things can overwhelm this, being locked in a poison move it's awful, my favorite set is offensive rocks with hp ice for luring, but i don't see it on A- level too;
A-marowak A- -> B+: Disagree, this think is a nice check to pheromosa, tapu bulu, magearna, char-x/y, celesteela, heatran, ferrothorn, mega scizor, mega venu, some buzzwoles, amoongus, toxapex, skamory, clefable, chansey, and every eletric type bar a-raichu and hp ground xukitree, every time this thing get in the field it's going to A: spread a lot of damage; B: use a utility move in SR/WoW;
gyarados mega B- -> B/B+ : agree, IDK how this thing is so low(lower than regular gyara and starmie, and being in the same rank with slowking and breloom) pheromosa and mega venu are pain the ass for this, but after a +1 this shit became rly hard to stop, if your using A-ninetales as a parter you will get the +2 becoming unstopableA;
A-Ninetales C+ -> B-: agree, aurora veil is super broken, also warning + freeze dry allow you to beat rain teams so easy;
A-Raichu D-> higher: agree, this mon is really underated, on rain + eletric teams this thing is a beast, being able to KO/2KO almost every with thunder/psychc/focus miss/surf(rip a-marowak and ground types) thing is awesome, weather and other terrains can't really stop it, tapu bulu/lele can't switch against thunder(bulu is KO'ed by thunder + psychc), ttar is KO'ed by Focus miss, hippo is 2KO'ed by surf, priority hurt it a lot, but it's definely way better than all the D mons, and most of others C-/C, i would say this is C+ worth.

my own nominations:
Xukitree C+ -> B-/B: i was really suprised to see this mon so low, scarf/z-hypnosis is decent against offense, but the set that really deserve the rise, is tail glow + 3 attacks with z-eletric, jsut demolish any kind of stall/balance team, just click tail glow, and than see things dying, i underst that offense is rly bad for this, but there every mon that is slower than xukitree is wrecked by this(bar shedinja), definetly should be in the same rank as togekiss.
crabominable/wishmashi ->unraked: what this things are supposed to do? i don't think that trick room is that viable at all, this are probably going to be removed in the first "we revamped the lower tiers, because there were a lot of gimmicks mons"
 
not attacking you Kutscher because i am posting this in general to say people got to stop hyping this thing up. xurkitree is trash. it is stupidly overrated as people are like "oml 173 special attack and tail glow xD for life"

it's slow so the z-electric terrain set is still outpaced by scarf lele, excadrill, and landorus-t which is honestly pathetic. getting a chance to set up is a completely different story lol. the tail glow + 3 attacks set can't break stall anyways because of dugtrio. shed shell? good luck beating toxic chansey. finally, you have the z-hypnosis set which can't set up a tail glow the next turn because the turn 2 wake is way too frequent. and this is assuming you hit hypnosis.

it really isn't hard to admit. it can't beat stall. it can't beat bulky offense. it can't beat offense. it's bad and its only niche is to be used on sticky webs (however, i will admit that sticky web xurkitree is raw af).

also, i agree metagross should be s. it's broken.
 
I am very curious about Rotom-Wash . . . is he still A rank material in the current meta? Has anyone else had consistent success using him? I am not saying this to nominate him lower, but because i personally have struggled with using him and was surprised to see him still held highly. The majority of the time i have him out, he either cripples one mon and then dies, or just becomes death fodder from all the powerful special attackers higher in the viability rankings. I know he is used as a defensive pivot and not meant to take attacks preying on his weaker defense (however you EV him), but his stats just always seem to not be enough to take more than one hit before dying. Is his standard defensive set the one that's keeping in A, or is there another spread that has become more popular? Or is it just his typing and ability being good like before?
 
I am very curious about Rotom-Wash . . . is he still A rank material in the current meta? Has anyone else had consistent success using him? I am not saying this to nominate him lower, but because i personally have struggled with using him and was surprised to see him still held highly. The majority of the time i have him out, he either cripples one mon and then dies, or just becomes death fodder from all the powerful special attackers higher in the viability rankings. I know he is used as a defensive pivot and not meant to take attacks preying on his weaker defense (however you EV him), but his stats just always seem to not be enough to take more than one hit before dying. Is his standard defensive set the one that's keeping in A, or is there another spread that has become more popular? Or is it just his typing and ability being good like before?
He can be nice as a greninja, heatran, celesteela, fini, and emergency flying check (spdef if the best again) It's not being used a ton rn I feel because of how good pure offensive volt turn is atm. With stuff like tapu koko and greninja, magearna being a more used pivot ECT. All in all it's still good just not popular.
 
I am very curious about Rotom-Wash . . . is he still A rank material in the current meta? Has anyone else had consistent success using him? I am not saying this to nominate him lower, but because i personally have struggled with using him and was surprised to see him still held highly. The majority of the time i have him out, he either cripples one mon and then dies, or just becomes death fodder from all the powerful special attackers higher in the viability rankings. I know he is used as a defensive pivot and not meant to take attacks preying on his weaker defense (however you EV him), but his stats just always seem to not be enough to take more than one hit before dying. Is his standard defensive set the one that's keeping in A, or is there another spread that has become more popular? Or is it just his typing and ability being good like before?
I think burn nerf + misty terrain really hurt it and I would advocate for a lower placement. Will-o-wisp is THE reason it kind of sucks to switch into, as it's such a safe catch-all move with little risk outside of a miss, and burn was one of the best ways to whittle Mega-Venu, but if an opposing Fini already came in and misty terrain is up, Mega-Venu switches in with impunity. It doesn't help that Mega-Venu is a defensive monster right now and that Fini's probably the best defogger. It also can't necessarily hinder a grounded pokemon from just continuously setting up SD's in its face now, although admittedly only a few pokemon like that are viable and/or would be on the same team as Tapu Fini/appreciate Hydros anyway (SD chomp's worse than SD Lando-T, and the latter isn't grounded; SD Mega-scizor's not super great right now).

Indeed what you said is also true, that it just can't continuously take hits from a few special attackers (and terrain abusers like Zen headbutt Mega-Metagross), but yes checking Ash-gren, Fini, and Celesteela is super nice like psVoltage brings up. It kind of gets overshadowed by AV Magearna, but is distinctively more reliable against SR def heatran. However, Bloom Doom lure Tran is better than ever, and the addition of z-moves in general hurts it a ton because of a lack of recovery and not being an insane wall in either of the defensive stats like something like skarmory is. It just can't take these single-use nukes that you can't even identify an opponent has until they use it already (outside of knock off telling you that they have a crystal on them).

It fits on many teams as usual, with similar great synergies and kind of low opportunity cost in terms of taking up a slot, but I'm not sure if that alone means it should stay A. I think it does a better job than A-Marowak as a pivot and a glue for teams that otherwise don't have a switch-in to certain threats, but I also agree with others' sentiment that post-genesect OU means Wak's viability drops, so a comparison to Marowak wouldn't be reason to keep it as A. So maybe something like Marowak--> B+, Rotom-W-->B+/A-


EDIT:
on a side note, what does Ferrothorn do now, same old same old? ideal EVs? any new really good teammates or certain threats that make it a liability?
 
I can't believe that crawdaunt is actually lower in viability ranking than in ORAS. It makes no sense. Ok, I get it that Tapu Fini is super amazing right now but this thing should not really switch into crawdaunt because it looses it's only source of recovery. Tapu bulu also is not reliable counter because of sheer power of adaptability knock off.

Crawdaunt has great type synergy with ash greninja because they both preasure same mons (namenly tapu fini). And with keldeo almost gone and lati being unpopular it has even more possibility for aqua jet sweep.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Koko: 247-291 (87.9 - 103.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 411-484 (106.4 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 380-447 (95.4 - 112.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 278-328 (91.4 - 107.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

This thing should be B-

Another thing, drop manaphy , rise volcarona. Bulky volcarona is pretty amazing, setting up on those steel types like metagross, and sweeping everything. Also its nice switch in for pheromosa and buzzwhole.
 
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