Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

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A- ---->A

I totally agree with this! I think that clef sorta got tossed to the side in the beginning of Sun/Moon because we got so many good fairies, along with one dropping down from ubers. People sorta slept on it because some of the stuff that really dominated the meta either straight up destroyed it (Mega Metagross, Aegislash) Or ran options to hit it really hard (Sludge Wave Lando-I, Poison Jab Pheromosa, etc.) But the metagame has been really in its favor lately. Although its role has definitely changed between gens 6 and 7, and it may not be the S rank wonder that it was then, it's still a really great pokemon that's worth being ranked A.

The set I'll be talking about mainly is what is imo the best one, the max def bold set. I find it both the most splashable and the best to blanket check a number of things in the meta.
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled
- Flamethrower/ Knock Off
That last set can be flamethrower or knock off. Both of them have a ton of utility - flamethrower is nice to get some really good damage on things like excadrill, skarm, ferro, celesteela, magearna and scizor that may want to switch in, while knock off is a lot better against stall. People often times leave in a chansey or a toxapex (Or an opposing clefable) and get their eviolite or leftovers knocked off. Obviously clefable is never going to 6-0 stall, but I've found that it definitely eases the match up. The utility of knock off is really nice against typical clef switch ins while flamethrower is pretty nice to hurt its common switch-ins.

Now to talk about clef itself in the larger picture of the whole meta. Clefable's role has changed a lot since gen 6 where it could effectively run a large number of sets like Calm Mind, SpDef, PhysDef, Rocks Clef, BoltBeam, etc. This generation, it really can't do every single role that it could in ORAS, but it still does its job effectively.

It does a nice job handling stuff like Garchomp, Mega Sableye, Mega Heracross (One of the few reliable counters to it), tangrowth, band zygarde (Unless iron tail then rip) and lots of defensive mons that it beats just because of magic guard being like a fantastic ability (Plus Mega Lopunny but I don't wanna talk too much on that cause it's not really been enough time to say anything about it) Pure fairy typing is so nice dude like you only got two weaknesses and a lot of resists, you get up rocks on oh so many pokemon while checking a bunch more. I find clef super splashable, and that it often brings a lot more advantages to the table than weaknesses. It doesn't necessitate a ton of team support - in fact, sort of the opposite as it provides rocks and checks to things like zygarde. It's nice to have a status absorber too, because it doesn't mind being burnt or poisoned.

To wrap things up cause I'm going super long and don't wanna get too repetitive, clef is a really good mon and deserves A. It handles a bunch of top tier threats in the meta, and provides soft checks to many others. Providing rocks, very nice bulk, and a good blanket check to another physical threat justifies a rise for clef imo. It may not be the meta defining beast in was in ORAS but it certainly is still a great pokemon to use.
 
A- ---> A (Strongly Agree)

Clefable has multiple viable sets and a Taunt-free SR is a godsend for setters. It even can be a good Calm Mind sweeper or an Unaware monster depending on your taste. Rise Clefable.

A- ---> B+ (Slightly Agree)

It's hard for me to place my finger on what exactly brings it down, but it feels like the meta is somewhat working against it with things like Magearna rising and the likes. Again, not entirely sure, so I'm on the fence.

A- ---> B+ (Agree)

The main issue for me is the rise of MegaZardY and Heatran among others. Fire-types threaten Magnezone more than ever, and while Rain helps out, Magnezone usually doesn't have room on a Rain team to use it well. I might be missing something else, but Fire is on the rise and that hurts a lot.

A- ---> B+ (Strongly Agree)

Aside from the obvious Fire-type rise, much better Defoggers exist without using the mega slot, such as Zapdos and Latios. Latios in particular outclasses Mega Scizor specifically as a more offensive Defogger. Drop this bug.
I find this post quite a peculiar one. I find the reasons for this post rather...lacking. They don't add much substance for any conversation. You're just restating facts we already know, instead of presenting us a point that is new and cool.

Imagine me nominating Kyurem-B to S rank, my reasoning being "He has multiple viable sets...a good Life Orb attacker or a Z-move monster depending on your taste." Notice what's wrong with my reasons? They don't add much substance for ANY conversation, instead just restating facts already apparent to readers. A better post would be me explaining WHY his "multiple viable sets" warrant a place in S-rank (such as being very hard to predict), rather than just me simply stating he has "multiple viable sets."

And if you're unsure about where you stand regarding a ranking for a Pokémon (the case in point being your position with Mega Alakazam), then it's better not to post. It's like me saying "I don't know what to say, but I'll just post here anyways even though I'm not adding anything new."

I urge people not to simply restate facts known to everyone, like saying Clefable can be an "Unaware monster." Yes, this is something we all know. Tell us something we DON'T know. Explain HOW Clefable is an "Unaware monster." Or explain how Clefable can survive with so many Greninjas gunking up OU. That will make a much more meaningful post in a thread like this.

This is a rule Gary stipulated back in May 17. I shouldn't have to say stuff like this. For heaven's sake, it's a RULE. Do people not read the rules anymore before posting?
 
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Wont go into the discussion points because colonel m basically stated excactly what i think (also agree with rising zapdos and dropping awak) but i have my own nom:


Suicune to b+
Really this should've been b+ for a long time. Suicune has seen a ton of usage in wcop, and while usage /=/ viability, these stats prove it can be used on a variety of succesful teams. The rise in sub tran usage means that while the cune player has to predict well to get cune in when tran clicks sub/ep, once it gets in it can get a sub off and use tran as setup bait. Z solar beam tran is also bery uncommon mow, which benefits cune for obvious reasons. The fact that most rain teams opt for specs pelliper over defensive pelipper is another change that helps cune, since it can pp stall hydro pumps. Steela has never really fallen off, but its usage is higher than ever, which again, benefits cune. Only thing that makes cunes job harder than before is the rise in bulu, but even then, cune greatly benefits from having bulu as a partner because grassy terrain. Also lol at rotom wash being higher than suicune.
 
Greninja: A+ --> S Agree

I agree with greninja moving up to S. It has so many different sets and you cant really predict what moves greninja will have in a battle. There are around 8-9 moves that you can use that are great (they depend on the team though) on greninja. and if you run male greninja (you always should I can't think of a reason not to run male lol) sometimes your opponent won't know if you are running protean or ash. not saying they won't know but still. it can also handle mew which has got so much better lately. you could raise both ash and protean, but I think that protean would be the one to move up to s. it also does well against almost every ground and dragon type in the game. hopefully this helps :)

Greninja --> S, Agree

The fact that ninja can't beat mew, pex, and keld in one set shouldn't be a reason to hold him back. It's unreasonable to expect that any mon will beat every single wall and pivot in the game 1v1. BUT the fact that it can beat any of them that it wants is amazing (before you say it, rotom-w is 2HKOd by physical ninja's gunkshot).
can't greninja beat them with extrasensory and d pulse? not saying you should run both together but I know if I was up against a gren with mew I would still be scared out. (not trying to be rude to you, just trying to help :) )
 
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Is there any reason in spite of having an ou set shuckle is unranked? We all know how one dimensional and taunt bait he is, but sticky Web is just an absolute blessing and given his good defences, great ability for a suicide lead and a movepool that really does what he needs, I believe his niche in sticky web similar to smeatgle gives him merit small out in the same manner as oras effectively. I bring this up without replys to bring up the point he has an outstanding visible set already made for him.
 
Is there any reason in spite of having an ou set shuckle is unranked? We all know how one dimensional and taunt bait he is, but sticky Web is just an absolute blessing and given his good defences, great ability for a suicide lead and a movepool that really does what he needs, I believe his niche in sticky web similar to smeatgle gives him merit small out in the same manner as oras effectively. I bring this up without replys to bring up the point he has an outstanding visible set already made for him.
its probably because it gets ko'd by things like ash gren. and its very slow.
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Shuckle: 236-278 (97.1 - 114.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
even though it has sturdy that's why people have stealth rocks or spikes up.
(and if you want to put it in ranked you have to put replays I think I'm not really sure)
 
its probably because it gets ko'd by things like ash gren. and its very slow.
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Shuckle: 236-278 (97.1 - 114.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
even though it has sturdy that's why people have stealth rocks or spikes up.
(and if you want to put it in ranked you have to put replays I think I'm not really sure)
I'm not necessarily team shuckle here, but i feel like your reasons for shuckle being unranked arent very accurate. The first being ash-gren OHKOing. First, gren would need to be in ash form to ohko, and second, ash-gren literally OHKO's not super frail neutral pokes such as koko, so i dont think a rock type being ohko'd is really much of an argument against it. You also said it gets ohko'd after sturdy, which is somewhat irrelevant as shuckle is used as a suicide lead 90% of the time
 
its probably because it gets ko'd by things like ash gren. and its very slow.
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Shuckle: 236-278 (97.1 - 114.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
even though it has sturdy that's why people have stealth rocks or spikes up.
(and if you want to put it in ranked you have to put replays I think I'm not really sure)

True of smeargle as well to be honest and he is much more of a won hit wonder, as although both are suicide leads shuckle is the only one realistically that can set up sw or Sr again. Smeargle speed is unquestionably better but it's still awful for a pokemon that's so frail, so much taunt bait it's not funny. Shuckles big immediate lead advantage is he has an ability that's a focus sash so he isn't immediate taunt bait by use of metal herb. Smeargle has better options in spore ect. Move pool wise but your example is specs ash,ninja as a lead shuckle won't face ash but pretty ash and won't loose due to sturdy even on city and water shrunken is too weak to break sturdy. Smeargle is forced out and any hazards coming back in renders him koed by many a weak move, timid Smeargle won't be out pacing a lot of key threats and more importantly it's a sticky Web team so naturally being in a position your sw user has been forced out by a very common pokemon in ninja isn't a great start.
 

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Greninja from A+ to S rank


Looking at this post you might think this is just some weird decision but I believe Greninja should be given S rank for several reasons.
First off, look at how it's being spammed nowadays. For example, just look at these recent WCoP games and they kinda speak for themselves, where Greninja is being used with lots of different movesets. Indeed, I think Greninja's movepool is great and it's wide and various.

Replays: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

Furthermore, Greninja is an asset for offensive teams, playing different roles in each match. Whilst the Ash-Greninja is mostly run with a Choice Specs or a Mystic Water / Darknium Z, the 'normal' ninja has actually an almost perfect movepool, in my opinion. Talking about the Choice Scarf, which has a fuck ton of speed (377 * 1.5) and therefore it does outspeed a large quantity of mons even at +1, you will see moves such as Rock Slide for revenge killing some fire types like Volcarona or Charizard X, U-Turn to keep momentum and damaging psychic types mostly, Hydro Pump which is used mostly to threaten the Heatran or whatever, Ice Beam to revengekill the Dragon types like Salamence, Dragonite, and also to do several damage to grass types and so on, Gunk Shot to hit the Tapus mostly and to damage lots of fairies in the metagame and Extrasensory to damage the Venusaur Mega, the :pex: and so on. While facing a Greninja, you should also care about the Life Orb set. As we can see in this replay, Greninja lacks an offensive counterplay. Indeed, the coverage Gunk Shot - Low Kick - Ice Beam kinda dismantled everything in the opponent's team. Even a Pokemon like Chansey should be careful when facing the Ninja; as we can see in this replay, Z Fightinium Low Kick is being run to threaten steel types and normal fat types mostly, like Chansey, which just died after chipping 35% with a low kick. Finally, Greninja can even hold an Expert Belt, which it can just bluff a Choice Scarf or whatever item, which is kinda clutch for offensive orientated teams. It can even be a great Spikes and Taunt user, which can be really useful when you face off a Balance / Bulky Offense team.
Well, I don't think I have to add anyhting else to this post, I think I covered pretty much everything of my thoughts about it.

Suicune from B to A- rank


Really? Is this mon only B rank? I reckon this is one of the most troublesome around the tier. In addition, I actually think that Vincune is one of the best Water types in this metagame right now and it can solos many team just from the preview. This replay shows how Suicune is overpowered right now. It's able to pp stall even a Ferrothorn (and many other mons) which usually could beat the Crocune set since Power Whip could have done damage and 3hko it. But, thanks to Pressure + Substitute + Protect, it's able to pp stall pretty much everything. Furthermore, if paired with, for example, Dugtrio, which it gets rid of most electric types right now such as koko (if it's scarf duggy), Suicune becomes a huge threat for most of the teams, especially the bulky ones (balances in particular). These are my two cents about these mons, thank you for reading!
 

A- to A: agree
Unaware and magic guard two great abilities along with the fairy typing, reliable recovery and stealth rock this mon is a pain to deal with. Its ability to be stalls best unaware also helps and the calm mind set is still decent.


A to A-: agree

in the current this has a lot of counters and switch ins and just isnt good enough for A anymore with the likes of amoongus, fini, tangroth, pex along with many more being able to beat almost any set and likes or tapu koko being able to revenge specs and av mage beat scarf it needs to drop.


A- to B+: undisided leaning towords drop.

While alakazam does need a lot of suport to work and is quite weak to most special walls, choice scarf users and priority it is still quite good due to the lele core and its ability to revenge weekend rain mons with trace and even one shot pert with energy ball (even though energy ball shouldnt really used on it). it can also swap in on pre mega'd menitreck and steal lightining rod. I cant decide weather this should drop but am leaning towards a drop.


A- to B+: disagree severely

i feel like gengar is still good in the meta due its ability to beat all the tapus and landorous with hp ice when scarfed and being incredibly hard to switch in on specs. i think it should stay at A- espeically with the increase of mew and bulu usage.


A- to B+: agree

With the shift in the current meta and the rise of rain it is now much harder to trap and kill steeltipes other than scarmory and celesteelea wich it cant even always 100% counter due to whirlwind and earthquake despite this it still isnt bad as trapping scarmory is quite nice at times in the current but not anough to keep it at A-.


A+ to S: agree

Both protean and ash greninja are very good in the curent meta due to there ability sweep through almost anyteam and being incredibly hard to prep for as well as many of his counters no longer being as viable such as defencive mage i think this needs to go to s both protean and ash more so ash.



A to A+: agree

Charizard y is arguably the best mega right now and has little to no switch ins and the ability to put up sun and severely counter rain and aoura veil teams as well as being a pain for webs to deal with this deserve A+ right now in the currnt meta.
 
B -> B+ or A-: Agree

Since when could a mono-Water PP stall things like CB Bulu, Ferrothorn, Tangrowth, and many other things? Well, VinCune (Sub+CM+Protect Suicune, for the uninformed) can do this and much, much more. With an excellent defensive typing, lucrative 101-HP Substitutes, a spammable STAB in Scald, incredible 100/115/115 bulk, and an excellent speed tier for something like it, Suicune sees a lot of success in tournament play and in the two-dozen games or so I've played with the team posted in the replay above (occasionally substituting Groundium Z Dugtrio for Scarf Dugtrio to beat Mega Manectric and Tapu Koko comfortably) a good half or so of the ones I've bumped into would get cleanly 6-0'd by VinCune outright.

It's fast enough to beat everything up to and including neutral-natured base 95s. Its natural bulk gives it many opportunities to set up Substitutes. And outside of the fast, strong Electrics that get trapped and eliminated by Scarf Dugtrio there is very little that can stop this thing from sweeping once it starts boosting up. After setting up a substitute beforehand it can even burn PP from things like Tapu Lele. And to top it all off, the threat of a Scald burn is always present; with a Scald burn, Suicune can even completely wall things like Choice Band Tyranitar, either by PP stalling its Stone Edges and forcing it to gamble with a miss or by PP stalling a good portion of its Crunches and potentially forcing a low roll and keeping its Substitute intact for another turn.

With VinCune's relatively limited counterplay - a tremendous portion of which is trapped and eradicated by Dugtrio - I can see why there's a lot of hype surrounding it now. I fully support a rise to B+ and beyond.
 

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Just wondering but what would a team around Suicune be? I've been trying Suicune out but I'm not sure I've been using it correctly.
 
Just wondering but what would a team around Suicune be? I've been trying Suicune out but I'm not sure I've been using it correctly.
First of all, this isn't correct thread to ask such question. However I made team build around vincune. It isn't most competitive, top tier team (mainly because it features some heat mons like dragalge and LO zam and no overused S rank mons like magearna, greninaj) but it is good enough to be consider competitive and fun to be play with. However you really need to know matchups and what pokemon does, beasts to use it correctly. Here are sample replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-598468323
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-598473284

and importable:
Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 24 SpD / 68 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Protect

Dragalge @ Black Sludge
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic Spikes
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Focus Blast

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 192 SpD / 64 Spe
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder Wave

Heracross @ Heracronite
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 240 HP / 136 Atk / 132 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Pin Missile
- Rock Blast
- Substitute

Keldeo @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Scald
- Secret Sword
- Icy Wind

Alakazam @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Knock Off
- Hidden Power [Fire]

I hope you enjoy.

edit. More stuff how to make good suicune team:
Basicaly you need to take list of mons that suicune can't deal with. Most basic one: zadY, electric types, specs lel, bulu, fini, toxapex, sd lando. It looks kinda long, but since no team don't have all of them you don't have to put counter to all of them. Dragalge works great, because it beats zardY, all electric types, some bulu set and fini. However this leves you extra week to ground types so beware. T spikes also helps a lot, because they make beating some mons, like chansey, tangrowth, koko, volcanion, gastrodon much, much easier
 
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Neither of your responses are appropriate for this thread imo, They definitely fit better in the metagame discussion thread. But they haven't been deleted so :V

Suicune to A- is a little high in my opinion, from my experience there are some match ups that are extremely difficult for it to get going, although I probably just need to get more experience with it.
 
Regarding Suicune:

I saw some Wcup games with Suicune not being able to 2HKO Waterresists at +6. So I wanted to ask about this specific Set.

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 64 SpA / 192 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Protect
- Scald
- Calm Mind

You still have enough Speed for Modest Heatran and the special attack investment helps 2HKOing some Waterresists. An example:

+6 64+ SpA Suicune Scald vs. 40 HP / 252 SpD Alomomola: 231-273 (48 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
+6 0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 40 HP / 252 SpD Alomomola: 196-231 (40.7 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

An example of SubCM Suicune not being able to get a kill because of Alomomola:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-296327

Bulky teams do have trouble with this thing but they can still often enough pivot around Toxapex+AV Tang or Chansey+Unaware mon and limit Suicune to maximal one kill. With Special Attack investment, you turn 3HKOs into 2HKOs and 4HKOs into 3HKOs. The damageincrease hovers around 18~19% which is very noticeable, even against offensive teams with unboosted Scalds.

There is a huge difference between 2HKOing the Waterresists and 3HKOing. 2HKOing can mean 6-0ing with Vin/Flocune or not even getting a single kill. For that matter, the loss of Speed should be an acceptable price.

I do like this potential of Suicune and I feel it can indeed adapt to its weaknesses with small tweaks. But for now I would prefer to keep Suicune B (until I see more convincing Tournament games :D).
 
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Regarding Suicune:

I saw some Wcup games with Suicune not being able to 2HKO Waterresists at +6. So I wanted to ask about this specific Set.

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 64 SpA / 192 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Protect
- Scald
- Calm Mind

You still have enough Speed for Modest Heatran and the special attack investment helps 2HKOing some Waterresists. An example:

+6 64+ SpA Suicune Scald vs. 40 HP / 252 SpD Alomomola: 231-273 (48 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
+6 0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 40 HP / 252 SpD Alomomola: 196-231 (40.7 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

An example of SubCM Suicune not being able to get a kill because of Alomomola:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-296327

Bulky teams do have trouble with this thing but they can still often enough pivot around Toxapex+AV Tang or Chansey+Unaware mon and limit Suicune to maximal one kill. With Special Attack investment, you turn 3HKOs into 2HKOs and 4HKOs into 3HKOs. The damageincrease hovers around 18~19% which is very noticeable, even against offensive teams with unboosted Scalds.

There is a huge difference between 2HKOing the Waterresists and 3HKOing. 2HKOing can mean 6-0ing with Vin/Flocune or not even getting a single kill. For that matter, the loss of Speed should be an acceptable price.

I do like this potential of Suicune and I feel it can indeed adapt to its weaknesses with small tweaks. But for now I would prefer to keep Suicune B (until I see more convincing Tournament games :D).
Point is suicune is pretty damn good at pp stalling things that it doesn't outright beat at +6 (like chansey, tangrowth, etc), due tu preasure and scald burns. So if you set up game in right way you can beat chansey, alommomomomomomla etc 1v1. And that's reason I like to pair suicune with t spikes it makes you beat special walls and water resists without even worrying about dropping your scald pp to 0, or with knock off zam, to break havoc to toxapex/tangrowth cores.

I don't think that investing into sp attack and speed is right way. IMO you are better off investing into physical and sometimes special bulk. However it might work just fine.
 
Point is suicune is pretty damn good at pp stalling things that it doesn't outright beat at +6 (like chansey, tangrowth, etc), due tu preasure and scald burns. So if you set up game in right way you can beat chansey, alommomomomomomla etc 1v1. And that's reason I like to pair suicune with t spikes it makes you beat special walls and water resists without even worrying about dropping your scald pp to 0, or with knock off zam, to break havoc to toxapex/tangrowth cores.

I don't think that investing into sp attack and speed is right way. IMO you are better off investing into physical and sometimes special bulk. However it might work just fine.
I agree with Seth that having defense is a way better choice. you aren't going to outspeed kartana, m medicham, m gallade, etc. so if you put 252 hp and defense with bold you could have a better chance of living and killing them. and also having toxic spikes you can break through bulky teams.

EDIT: You guys shouldn't really talk about suicune here anyway. so if you want to talk about it more you should talk about it on the metagame discussion page.
 

Leo

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I think you both are misunderstanding what he means. Vincune runs 232 Speed Timid with 252 HP and the rest into SpDef, not max HP max Def or whatever spread you're suggesting. He isn't trying to reduce bulk to run more SpAtk, but rather reduce Speed to run more SpAtk. So yeah, if you're going to (constructively) criticize his spread, at least make sure you know what the standard spread is and its purpose (in this case, outspeeding Timid Heatran to avoid a Toxic as well as outspeeding Modest Lele, Naughty Kyurem-B, etc). Regarding that spread, I presonally don't like it because of how popular Heatran is right now, which has also started to run Timid again for Jolly Bulu and idr what else. I guess it still has its draws but it's more matchup dependant imo
 

Gary

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These are just my opinions, not the actual changes lol.

A- ---> A: Agree/Indifferent
Clefable is definitely one of the best Pokemon in A- imo. It's pretty damn splashable considering how much it soft checks in the meta, and it's a reliable rocker that can get them up vs stall which is huge atm. It's fantastic for switching into Zygarde as well as Mew, and it can also 1v1 Boltbeam Magearna as long as it's not running CM as well. Depending on what 4th move it runs it can bait in shit like Tran and Steela to Knock Off their Lefties which I personally think is the best option given how common both are atm, and Flame is nice for Ferro/Mawile. I do agree with NJNP tho that it often does let some Pokemon in for free, mainly Sub Heatran which is very problematic to deal with, and stuff like Volcarona and Zard-Y give zero fucks about it unless it runs T-wave which is pretty rare. Tbh I think you can say similar things about other mons in A such as Growth or Ferro, but to a lesser extent considering Growth's coverage and Ferro's hazards/Leech. I could go either way.

A ---> A-: Disagree
Keldeo is still one of the best Scarfers in the tier imo. Mega T-tar is one of the most annoying Pokemon to revenge kill, and being able to hard switch into it is very nice at times as well, which is something Gren can't do. Charti Volcarona is a lot less common now because more people are beginning to shift back to Z move sets, so Keldeo can revenge kill it more reliably. I also agree with NJNP that Specs Keldeo is underrated considering that some people's best switch-in to Keldeo are Celesteela and Scarf Latios, both of which take a fuck ton from Pump/Secret Sword. I still think it's one of the more solid Pokemon in the metagame, and I'd like to see it in A personally.

A- ---> B+: Agree
Mega Zam is still a cunt in some matchups but overall I'm not too fond of it. I wouldn't use Zam without Lele atm, considering that it really needs that extra support to not be extremely vulnerable to priority and be able to tear holes into shit like AV Growth and whatnot. While it's a good core, it's very exploitable defensively and doesn't really allow you to slap Zam on that many teams because of it. The influx in Magearna as well as Steela is really bad for it, its match up vs stall is obviously not very good (the stallbreaker set is niche as fuck and makes Zam significantly worse in every other match up) and Scarf Gren is more common now which basically gives it free momentum.

A- ---> B+: Strongly Agree
Gengar is just not good at all right now. AV Magearna easily eats hits from all sets, influx in CB T-tar as well as Weavile is really bad for it, and choiced sets give Mega T-tar free set up which is absolutely terrible. Mega Lopunny can take advantage of Specs Shadow as well. Better breakers exist.

A- ---> B+: Agree
Zone is still nice in the metagame because of its ability to trap problematic Steels mainly for Pinsir which hates the fact that Celesteelas are beginning to run more phys def spreads, but other than that, it fails to trap other Steels such as Magearna and Skarmory considering that most Skarms are using Shed Shell these days. A lot of Pinsir teams are forgoing running Zone entirely. AV is the only viable set and while it's a pretty good pivot, not being able to reliably check Magearna sucks for it because Z Focus Blast sets still fuck it over, and AV sets just grab momentum off of it. It can still check Koko as well as Scarf Lele and Greninja so it's still decent, but I don't think it's A- anymore.

A- ---> B+: Indifferent
Mega Scizor is still a decent Defogger that is able to check the most common variants of Bulu running around which is very useful for bulkier teams as well as CB Zyg. Its usefulness has dropped with the banning of Metagross for sure, but I still think its utility and insane physical bulk/typing is nice and it's still a pretty good pivot. Usage in Zone dropping is also nice too. Heatran and Zard-Y usage obviously gives it issues but you could also say the same with how Bulu usage is rising, which is great for it. I could go either way tbh.

---> B+
Gallade has been decent from my experience so far. I need to use it more, but so far I've been decently impressed. While its match up vs stall is still complete garbage, it loves the fact that Mew is being spammed atm, because it can seriously tear apart defensive cores such as CelePex, Heatran, Mew, etc. Clefable is beaten 1v1 if it switches in as it SDs, because a +2 Zen will 2HKO and Moonblast doesn't even come close to killing from full. Gallade has issues with fat Lando because the only viable set IMO is SD STABs Knock, otherwise you are better off just using Medicham. It also struggles to set up vs some things because of it being so prone to status as well as low phys def so it can't set up reliably vs something like fat Lando because EQ is still doing a fuck ton to you. It's not immediately threatening like Medicham and needs an SD to really do much, but its Speed tier and extra special bulk is really nice which sets it apart from Medicham as a breaker. I think one rank below Medi is good for it atm.

---> B
This Pokemon has been extremely underwhelming to me lol. While I've been using it/watching others use it, the amount of match-ups where its actually been useful has been far and few. Ladder might be a bit different because that tends to have more Webs which Lopunny obviously is good against, but in like a tour environment or outside of ladder where I run into more of the standard Mew/CelePex/Clefable builds Lopunny does basically nothing. It's also complete deadweight vs stall as well for obvious reasons. Without Ice Punch fat Lando is a huge nuisance, and without PuP it wont even have a chance to break through something like Mew/Clef. I just really dislike it atm, the meta is way too unkind to it, and it's nowhere near as useful as it was last gen.

B ---> B+: Fuck yes I hate this mon

No experience with Gard but it's underwhelming from what I can tell. Oh and btw if you haven't noticed all ready, feel free to discuss the new megas now.
 
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Deleted User 400951

Banned deucer.
Well, didn't I know that Lopunny would suck...
But yeah, while B might be a bit harsh, I'm not going to go much higher than that - B+ maybe. The standard Mew + Tang core laughs at it without Ice Punch. In fact, Ice Punch imo is definitely required on it now. Also, against offense, there's tons of things that beat it. Mega Pinsir notably beats it, and that's imo the best mega in the tier rn. In fact, it's common enough on webs to make the webs matchup not even that good. It's not really versatile with Ice Punch now being required - in fact, I'd say it has some 4mss. Fake out lets it truly do its job of ruining offense but PuP is its only hope of breaking through bulkier foes (even then good luck). It no longer has that versatility from ORAS, and that really lets it down. B isn't bad for it, but B+ is the max here. I knew it would suck, but not this badly...
I'll edit with more noms later.
For now, tl;dr Mega Lopunny now has some 4MSS and too much beats it right now. It's not versatile anymore B is fine, B+ is ok too but I mean, rather B.
EDIT:
Oops, yeah it needs Ice Punch for Lando. But even then, it's not doing enough to Mew + Tang anyways:
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 240 HP / 72+ Def Mew: 145-172 (36.1 - 42.8%) -- 96.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mew can get off a wisp, or even cause good damage:
0 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lopunny-Mega: 204-240 (75.2 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(204, 204, 206, 210, 212, 216, 216, 218, 222, 224, 228, 228, 230, 234, 236, 240)
Vs Tang, it can do something at least:
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 181-214 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 27.3% chance to 2HKO
(181, 183, 186, 187, 190, 192, 195, 196, 198, 201, 202, 205, 207, 210, 211, 214)
But Tang can switch out and recover off most of the damage. Also, Mega Lopunny can't switch in or else any chip will just be undone:
0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lopunny-Mega: 91-108 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(91, 91, 93, 94, 96, 96, 97, 99, 99, 100, 102, 103, 103, 105, 106, 108)
 
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Not really a nomination, but I'm torn on MegaLop. It can run Ice Punch and PuP thanks to the mega speed buff this generation. However, it struggles against Toxapex either way and is useless against stall. It's worked out for me, but it might be me being at 1200-1300 showing. So I'm torn. My gut says B+, but I'm so far down ladder my opinion is kinda worthless ;~;
 
Well, didn't I know that Lopunny would suck...
But yeah, while B might be a bit harsh, I'm not going to go much higher than that - B+ maybe. The standard Mew + Tang core laughs at it without Ice Punch. In fact, Ice Punch imo is definitely required on it now. Also, against offense, there's tons of things that beat it. Mega Pinsir notably beats it, and that's imo the best mega in the tier rn. In fact, it's common enough on webs to make the webs matchup not even that good. It's not really versatile with Ice Punch now being required - in fact, I'd say it has some 4mss. Fake out lets it truly do its job of ruining offense but PuP is its only hope of breaking through bulkier foes (even then good luck). It no longer has that versatility from ORAS, and that really lets it down. B isn't bad for it, but B+ is the max here. I knew it would suck, but not this badly...
I'll edit with more noms later.
For now, tl;dr Mega Lopunny now has some 4MSS and too much beats it right now. It's not versatile anymore B is fine, B+ is ok too but I mean, rather B.
Ice punch does less damage to Tang than HJK IIRC, did you mean Land-T?
 
I think lopunny would be good in B+/A-. it has counters but most of them can get 2 hit ko'd at 1+. here are some calcs.
+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 228-268 (57.8 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 138-163 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (92.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery)

+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 240 HP / 192+ Def Mew: 195-231 (48.6 - 57.6%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (don't really know what people normally run for defense on mew but you can check with what you use if you want)

+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 271-319 (67 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (it does 52.1 - 61.2% to defense with hjk at 1+)

So even though it can't take them out at full, it still does enough that it can kill after chip damage. it has one of the best speed tiers in the game and can still take out pokemon that often wall it. its also pretty good when you pair it with spikes and stealth rocks. its not the best mega, but I think it deserves this spot.
 

Deleted User 400951

Banned deucer.
I think lopunny would be good in B+/A-. it has counters but most of them can get 2 hit ko'd at 1+. here are some calcs.
+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 228-268 (57.8 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 138-163 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (92.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery)

+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 240 HP / 192+ Def Mew: 195-231 (48.6 - 57.6%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (don't really know what people normally run for defense on mew but you can check with what you use if you want)

+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 271-319 (67 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (it does 52.1 - 61.2% to defense with hjk)

So even though it can't take them out at full, it still does enough that it can kill after chip damage. it has one of the best speed tiers in the game and can still take out pokemon that often wall it. its also pretty good when you pair it with spikes and stealth rocks.
That seems good. However, getting to +1 isn't easy, and sometimes not possible. It already mandates both of its STABs, Ice Punch for lando and Fake out is better to actually do its job of beating offense. PuP is just too hard to fit. Even then, it has terrible bulk and can easily be revenged. B+ just might be fine (I'd still say B) but A- is way too high.
 
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