Zygarde is most definitely not used as a physical tank, i dont know where you got that from?
Last edited by a moderator:
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Gary
- Start date
- Status
With all due respect, While I think Kabutops does have enough going for it to keep it ranked, I find kabutops being better than swampert to be ridiculous. For an example, tops suffers a bit from 4 move slot syndrome, as it either forgoes fighting coverage for aqua jet to function outside of rain, while mega swampert has great coverage to let it run fighting coverage and ice punch and great bulk to function outside of rain, or it can run stealth rock for role compression if needed. Kabutops is basically kill or be killed with its terrible Bulk. Kabutops speed is semi irrelevant thanks to swamperts great bulk meaning most revenge killers can't kill it reliably. Garchmomp comes closest, but outrage does 63% at best. While Kabutops gets blasted by keldeo and latios. I presume you are trying to get kabutops to A-, which I feel exceptional replays are need for such a jump.
IMHO, Kabutops is fine where it is.
IMHO, Kabutops is fine where it is.
I think Mega Swampert does have good role compression of being a rock setter, switch in tank, and decent offensive power, however while it does all of these well, it doesn't do anything brilliantly.
I was perhaps a little narrow sighted in downplaying Mega Swampert's bulk and crucial electric immunity for rain teams. On my semi-rain team I don't face the constraints of full rain teams so I am able to use Kabutops for a purely offensive role and distribute defensive roles to other bulky pokemon and ground types (at the moment I use Mega Garchomp), which leads to a better distribution of roles.
That being said, I do agree with Shadowtex1 on replays, I'll get a few games in tonight and see if a few of them highlight the Kabutops advantage (and also the benefit of semi rain over full rain!).
I was perhaps a little narrow sighted in downplaying Mega Swampert's bulk and crucial electric immunity for rain teams. On my semi-rain team I don't face the constraints of full rain teams so I am able to use Kabutops for a purely offensive role and distribute defensive roles to other bulky pokemon and ground types (at the moment I use Mega Garchomp), which leads to a better distribution of roles.
That being said, I do agree with Shadowtex1 on replays, I'll get a few games in tonight and see if a few of them highlight the Kabutops advantage (and also the benefit of semi rain over full rain!).
I don't think that kabutops sucess in one particular team means that it should rise, specially because double wheater isn't a dominant playstyle that have ruled the ladder, for example, necrozma and espeon where very broken on BP(a lot of players got at #1 on ladder tnks to this mons if you want to use ladder as an argument) and both mons where at C+ and C- at those times, because they where only viable in one playstyle and they needed a lot of team support. Just like kabutops, but kabutops can't even sweep against everything with the right conditions like espeon and necroma used to do.
^this
In addition, Mega Swampert is the premier swift swimmer, as its bulk, good speed under rain, great coverage, role compression, and good power is why I think it does a better job at sweeping. I just did a calc and Mega swampert and LO kabutops have pretty similar power, meaning that kabutops is only slightly stronger when holding a item that takes away one of its best selling points. Unless those replays mentioned earlier prove me wrong, I firmly believe Pert does better at sweeping than top.
In addition, Mega Swampert is the premier swift swimmer, as its bulk, good speed under rain, great coverage, role compression, and good power is why I think it does a better job at sweeping. I just did a calc and Mega swampert and LO kabutops have pretty similar power, meaning that kabutops is only slightly stronger when holding a item that takes away one of its best selling points. Unless those replays mentioned earlier prove me wrong, I firmly believe Pert does better at sweeping than top.
While I don't think Kabutops should be unranked, it is not at all superior to Mega Swampert. Its overall bulk is pretty pathetic, so LO recoil really starts adding up, while on a hard rain team your Waterium Z is best run on Omastar since that thing hits even harder. Plus, you're selling Mega Swampert's Base 150 Attack incredibly short; its STABs and Ice Punch are enough to 2HKO almost everything in the OU tier without a boost. And while Kabutops outspeeds a lot more things Mega Swampert makes up for its awkward speed tier with incredibly good bulk and one of the objective best defensive typings in existence.
Regarding Swords Dance, Kabutops doesn't have that many setup opportunities except against stall. It's incredibly prediction-reliant otherwise and is frail enough that one mistake gets it killed. And Mega Swampert hardly needs to forego anything to hit Mew and Skarmory; under the rain its Waterfall always 2HKOs the former on the switch after rocks, and the non-negligible flinch chance means it can effectively wear down even those would-be counters. You also forget that Power-Up Punch is another rather uncommon option on Mega Swampert, which allows it to boost on attempted counters and turn would-be shaky 2HKOs into guaranteed 2HKOs on the entire tier. Nothing on Stall has any business taking a single hit from rain-boosted Mega Swampert. This is especially true against other team archetypes because Mega Swampert, unlike Kabutops, packs Ice Punch in its arsenal as arguably a mandatory move. It hits Zygarde and Tangrowth super effectively, while Kabutops has to consistently predict one of the two and proceeds to lose to the other if you predict incorrectly. Beating Zygarde is a huge deal, and beating one of its best teammates as well is an even bigger deal.
Kabutops isn't that unpredictable, either. Aqua Jet is admittedly nice but it has to deal with some serious 4MSS because it can't run all of Knock Off, Rapid Spin (don't use this), Swords Dance, Aqua Jet, and its obligatory Dual STAB. Its utility outside of rain is incredibly limited and it's arguably just as predictable as Mega Swampert could ever be, except that even outside of rain Mega Swampert packs a severe punch and beats a lot of things.
So, once again, Kabutops shouldn't outright be unranked. But it's not as good as you're making it out to be.
I also nominate Hoopa-C to be ranked somewhere.
I'm going to add another replay to that list to showcase how clutch Iapapa + Magician is on Hoopa-C.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-608664416
While this was a low-ladder game and not the best quality, on turn 13, Hoopa-C barely survives Banded Scizor's Bullet Punch, eats the Iapapa Berry and snatches the Choice Band afterwards, enabling it to survive the next BP and knock out the Scizor.
This post pretty much says it best. Ghost typing is such an amazing type offensively, and is arguably much better than Hoopa-U's Dark typing, who is forced to run Gunk Miss in order to 2HKO Clefable lmao (unless you're Banded, but that leaves you prone to Duggy trapping).Unranked -> C-
Hoopa @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Magician
EVs: 12 HP / 244 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Substitute
- Shadow Ball
- Psyshock / Focus Blast / Energy Ball
I saw Omari P use this Set so I want to respect that and give shoutouts to him.
EVs make sure you get the Iapapa after 3 Subs. Rest was put into Speed and Special Attack.
This sounds weird but regular Hoopa does a better job at breaking down defensive cores than Hoopa-U. This Set is basicly a 100% win against any Stallteam who do not utilize Pursuit. But why is this Set successfull against fat teams?
Being a Ghost-Type means you get free Subs against Chansey which results into a free Nasty Plot. Shadow Ball might not 2HKO Unaware Clefable, but you can fish for Spdef drops or Sub down to activate the Iapapa, which then allows you to steal the Leftovers making Shadow Ball deadlier.
Having Ghost over Darktyping allows you to not take supereffective damage from Moonblasts and Fleur Cannons and to not be trapped by Dugtrio (Pursuit usage has decreased alot).
This Set is not only good against Stall, but also viable against any playstyle that has that one fat mon like Toxapex or Mew you can get a free Sub against.
Sadly, the only Stallplayer I faced hid the room and I want to respect that by not posting private replays. I basicly 5-0ed him with Hoopa after I got a free Sub and thus a free Nasty Plot against Chansey. Tangrowth, whose AV was already Knocked Off by my Clefable cannot eat +2 Shadow Ball and everything else just dropped. (Even if Tangrowth had AV, I still had my free Sub)
Here are some replays against nonstallteams:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-606499122
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-606527209
I'm going to add another replay to that list to showcase how clutch Iapapa + Magician is on Hoopa-C.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-608664416
While this was a low-ladder game and not the best quality, on turn 13, Hoopa-C barely survives Banded Scizor's Bullet Punch, eats the Iapapa Berry and snatches the Choice Band afterwards, enabling it to survive the next BP and knock out the Scizor.
Felixx
I'm back.
While I do think that hoopa regular deserves a place on the viability rankings, this replay dosen't show its viability as a stall breaker
I know it didn't. It was showing off another one of its positive traits thanks to its item + ability, which I stated in my post. You could say Hoopa-U could theoretically do this too, but it's usually running a Choice item, Life Orb or a Z-crystal, and it either can't afford to or just straight up can't (Z-crystal) lose that item.
I think Serperior is a pokemon which has gotten a lot more useful lately due to its ability to pressure defog users, and how it annoys a lot of bulkier cores and playstyles, and is annoying to common stall teams. Serperior was naturally a threat to webs, and even though that playstyle has declined in usage, it makes as a good threat to pressure defoggers on hazard weak teams, or as a partner to a hazard reliant team as playing against an evasion boosted serperior is really annoying. Even with its shallow movepool, it actually has what it needs to attack a lot of Pokemon, and it can use substitute on a lot of them too. For example, most common defensive cores and fat pokemon such as Toxapex, Celesteela, Clefable, Mew, even Tangrowth/Zapdos struggle to break through Serperior if utilized properly or brought in on a forced switch, and can cause mind games as traditional checks can't handle the sub/seed set. Serperior can be especially annoying to most Pokemon which don't outspeed its high speed. Even though it's not as good, there are also scarf sets which can catch people off guard as a late game sweeper. As Serperior forces many switches, it functions well partnered with hazard setters, with teams relying on PP stall or misses to get back the advantage, as its moves aren't entirely accurate. Even so, I think it deserves to move up to B+.
Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-603191391
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-606236451
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-604102653
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-603165341
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-602836893
I wouldn't 100% agree with this nomination, simply because some metagame trends haven't exactly been in Serperior's favor.Serperior B -> B+
I think Serperior is a pokemon which has gotten a lot more useful lately due to its ability to pressure defog users, and how it annoys a lot of bulkier cores and playstyles, and is annoying to common stall teams. Serperior was naturally a threat to webs, and even though that playstyle has declined in usage, it makes as a good threat to pressure defoggers on hazard weak teams, or as a partner to a hazard reliant team as playing against an evasion boosted serperior is really annoying. Even with its shallow movepool, it actually has what it needs to attack a lot of Pokemon, and it can use substitute on a lot of them too. For example, most common defensive cores and fat pokemon such as Toxapex, Celesteela, Clefable, Mew, even Tangrowth/Zapdos struggle to break through Serperior if utilized properly or brought in on a forced switch, and can cause mind games as traditional checks can't handle the sub/seed set. Serperior can be especially annoying to most Pokemon which don't outspeed its high speed. Even though it's not as good, there are also scarf sets which can catch people off guard as a late game sweeper. As Serperior forces many switches, it functions well partnered with hazard setters, with teams relying on PP stall or misses to get back the advantage, as its moves aren't entirely accurate. Even so, I think it deserves to move up to B+.
Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-603191391
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-606236451
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-604102653
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-603165341
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-602836893
You haven't really provided me with metagame trends that are in Serperior's favor, instead just telling me stuff I know such as the ability to annoy bulkier cores. I, however, believe some metagame trends are going against Serperior (Pinsir and Charizard come to mind), but admittedly these aren't Serperior's largest problems.
Because the meta hasn't really changed for Serperior's favor, the only conceivable reason to raise Serperior is because Serperior somehow does better than the other mons in B. I'm not really sure how Serperior is better than the mons in B, because no one has provided adequate reasoning to explain this. (And that's one thing that makes Viability Rankings somewhat unreliable – there's a degree of subjectivity and uncertainty present, due to the lack of a metric to measure viability with.)
If you're serious about raising Serperior, you need to either explain why the meta favors Serperior, or why Serperior outperforms the other mons in B. Otherwise, you won't have much of a case.
While meta has not changed for Serperior, Serperiors usage has risen slightly showing its potential, and is a legitimate option on several teams I've seen. The main way the meta has changed for Serperior is the rise of balance, and fat pokemon such as clefable/pex/celesteela/mew. It's self explainitory as to why Serperior is better then B ranked mons, and I'm not gonna cover all of them, but examples, Manectric is a riskier pick and is generally not favored for Tapu Koko, as it doesn't hit hard enough for taking a mega slot, and is used as a pivot, which it doesn't always do best. Lopunny struggles to break through many walls in the metagame which is why it hasn't been as successful, where as Serperior doesn't struggle as hard from breaking past COMMON threats and walls like the ones mentioned. Mantine is easily overwhelmed by top tier threats such as thunderbolt Magearna, Landorus, and struggles to do its job as a defogger effectively, whereas Serperior is more reliable in its sub/seed set. And to your other point of rising usage of Pinsir/Charizard, can those switch in to a leech seed? With hazards up? Serperior's power literally stems from how those Pokemon you mentioned have risen, as those pokemon NEED defog/rapid spin support, and there aren't many good rapid spin users, especially those that deal with Serperior. With the relevant defoggers being Scizor, Latis, and Fini, Serperior is a Pokemon that can support its teammates, without needing to supported itself, as it can widdle down its checks or just right out sweep for the team. With Support, Serperior is definitely as potent as B+ pokemon such as Mega Scizor, Kartana, Tornadus, and as B, I think its not correct to match it up with Pokemon with Mamoswine, Alomomola, Mega Slowbro, ETC, where those pokemon aren't as favored.
Last edited:
A- down to B+
I think that Skarmory is definitely the most forgotten Pokemon in A-, and it's still sitting up there alongside the top-tier threats. I'm pretty sure it's been A- since the beginning, and since then, Landorus-Therian has started running Gravity, influxes of usage in Fire types such as Volcarona, Heatran and Charizard-Mega-Y, and influxes of usage in Zapdos. And this thing is beaten by any special attacker that's not a Psychic or Fairy type. Everything in S - A+ has some way of bypassing it bar Dugtrio and Tapu Bulu (The previously mention Landorus-Therian has Gravity, Magearna has Thunderbolt, Celesteela has Flamethrower, Mew stalls it out with its superior Speed and Power and can remove its entry hazards, the rest should be self-explanatory). And if you thought Toxapex was passive, Skarmory is even worse, because at least Toxapex can cripple its switch-ins with Scald. Skarmory is super easy to wall. You can effortlessly switch into Celesteela, Mew, Heatran, Zygarde, Charizard-Mega-Y, Tapu Koko, or Zapdos and kill it back. Yes, it can set up hazards as they switch in, but so can Ferrothorn, which is Skarmory's main competition (walls more threats, better attacking moves, Leech Seed, Iron Barbs) and therefore it shouldn't be sitting directly below Ferrothorn. I think Skarmory isn't on the same level as stuff like Latios and Tyranitar-Mega. It's more on par with Pokemon like Amoonguss IMO.
Last edited:
Would like to add that lando has also ran smack down over gravity since it even breaks the sturdy of skarmory, making it inable to use counter. I agree with A- to B+, its just not appreciating the changes in the meta and It is definitely not on the level of A- mons
A- down to B+
I think this is definitely the most forgotten Pokemon in A-, and it's still sitting up there alongside the top-tier threats. I'm pretty sure it's been A- since the beginning, and since then, Landorus-Therian has started running Gravity, influxes of usage in Fire types such as Volcarona, Heatran and Charizard-Mega-Y, and influxes of usage in Zapdos. And this thing is beaten by any special attacker that's not a Psychic or Fairy type. Everything in S - A+ has some way of bypassing it bar Dugtrio and Tapu Bulu (The previously mention Landorus-Therian has Gravity, Magearna has Thunderbolt, Celesteela has Flamethrower, Mew stalls it out with its superior Speed and Power and can remove its entry hazards, the rest should be self-explanatory). And if you thought Toxapex was passive, Skarmory is even worse, because at least Toxapex can cripple its switch-ins with Scald. Skarmory is super easy to wall. You can effortlessly switch into Celesteela, Mew, Heatran, Zygarde, Charizard-Mega-Y, Tapu Koko, or Zapdos and kill it back. Yes, it can set up hazards as they switch in, but so can Ferrothorn, which is Skarmory's main competition (walls more threats, better attacking moves, Leech Seed, Iron Barbs) and therefore it shouldn't be sitting directly below Ferrothorn. I think Skarmory isn't on the same level as stuff like Latios and Tyranitar-Mega. It's more on par with Pokemon like Amoonguss IMO.
I'd like to nominate Garchomp to drop from A to A-
This pokemon has been dropping in viability since the start of sun and moon and I think it's time to drop again. I've noticed usage of this pokemon generally on the decline, and outperformed by several pokemon that do it's role better. While versatile, can be run defensive, offensive, good movepool etc, I feel is rather underwhelming.
102 speed has become quite slow for a scarfer with keldeo, terrakion, gengar functioning better as scarfers IMO. Ground and dragon are bad types to be locked into thus is less spammable when firing off attacks. With the rise of tapu bulu, locking into eq is less desirable, and with misty surge and rise of fairies dragon claw/outrage wasn't too desirable either. It doesn't have the added abilities to make it function better than the slower scarfers e.g. tapu lele, landorus.
Defensively still its' best set, but 4 times weak to ice beam when bolt/beam is especially running in the meta isn't great. Landorus's intimidate is more useful and can switch out easier, tangrowth takes special hits better with assault vest. Rough skin/rocky helmet isn't as good anymore with the top physically offensive threats not even making contact, zygarde, m-hera, landorus, dug exception of m-pinsir. And the ones that do bulu, mega mawille, medicham aren't exactly well dealt with by garchomp.
As set up less than impressive, Landorus and salamence benefitting from flyinium z over garchomp and superior speed set up. Garchomp really falls behind as a ground type with zygarde,landorus, dugtrio, swampert,see little reason running it over them and not great to run with them due to ice weakness. The meta is moving to more adaptable defensive pokemon such as mew, clefable, tangrowth, celesteela etc, Pelipper to set up rain or pokemon with regenerator. An example of a pokemon which outperforms it in A- for example is Zapdos, immune to spikes and able to wall more of the meta with defog and access to recovery which chomp clearly lacks.
I just see little reason to use it anymore, and don't think it justifies A anymore, it just seems to be decent/good at most things without excelling in anything. Hence drop to A-.
This mon is still very viable, its scarf set can revenge +1 volcarona, +1 gyarados, +1 mence also being a faster then koko (Without scarf) and that doesnt suffer from attacking it + it can run a coverage move if u dont want to use dragon claw + outrage, like poison jab for fairies and fire blast for ferrothorn and tangrowth, this makes garchomp worthy of A imo.
I'd like to nominate Garchomp to drop from A to A-
This pokemon has been dropping in viability since the start of sun and moon and I think it's time to drop again. I've noticed usage of this pokemon generally on the decline, and outperformed by several pokemon that do it's role better. While versatile, can be run defensive, offensive, good movepool etc, I feel is rather underwhelming.
102 speed has become quite slow for a scarfer with keldeo, terrakion, gengar functioning better as scarfers IMO. Ground and dragon are bad types to be locked into thus is less spammable when firing off attacks. With the rise of tapu bulu, locking into eq is less desirable, and with misty surge and rise of fairies dragon claw/outrage wasn't too desirable either. It doesn't have the added abilities to make it function better than the slower scarfers e.g. tapu lele, landorus.
Defensively still its' best set, but 4 times weak to ice beam when bolt/beam is especially running in the meta isn't great. Landorus's intimidate is more useful and can switch out easier, tangrowth takes special hits better with assault vest. Rough skin/rocky helmet isn't as good anymore with the top physically offensive threats not even making contact, zygarde, m-hera, landorus, dug exception of m-pinsir. And the ones that do bulu, mega mawille, medicham aren't exactly well dealt with by garchomp.
As set up less than impressive, Landorus and salamence benefitting from flyinium z over garchomp and superior speed set up. Garchomp really falls behind as a ground type with zygarde,landorus, dugtrio, swampert,see little reason running it over them and not great to run with them due to ice weakness. The meta is moving to more adaptable defensive pokemon such as mew, clefable, tangrowth, celesteela etc, Pelipper to set up rain or pokemon with regenerator. An example of a pokemon which outperforms it in A- for example is Zapdos, immune to spikes and able to wall more of the meta with defog and access to recovery which chomp clearly lacks.
I just see little reason to use it anymore, and don't think it justifies A anymore, it just seems to be decent/good at most things without excelling in anything. Hence drop to A-.
It's not bad but it's worse than other choice scarf users. It's difficult to fit all those moves on non-scarf, and even on scarf you forgo rock coverage. Gyarados and mence aren't used as much anymore. For that job terrakion does better, it's faster stone coverage for volc, gyara, mence, and has poison jab too. Plus fighting stab is really good (will hit ferrothorn supereffectively and isn't walled by celesteela), rock/fighting being superior offensive stab than dragon/ground IMO. And it gets poison jab (and eq) too. Fire blast does only about 21-25% to tangrowth av which is the most popular set. And yet again not ideal to be locked into a special fire type move, especially with rain running around so much too. Yet terrakion is ranked a lot lower than A (not saying terrakion should be A, just saying garchomp shouldn't be). Poison jab isn't that useful too IMO, it doesn't 2HKO clefable, and earthquake does similar damage. It's main selling point is OHKOing Tapu Bulu. But the mere presence of tapu bulu on the opponent's team setting up grassy surge already makes chomp less useful in the overall match up.
Think as a choice scarf user far more frightening to face a pokemon like gengar,tapu lele,keldeo, terrakion, even tapu koko etc which can lock into a move which isn't easily walled/does no damage to switch in pokemon (while both stabs of chomp can do no damage/walled pretty easily). Landorus is the exception but think it makes this up with U-turn and intimidate, as well as choice scarf not really being its best set anyway. Perhaps the biggest issue I have with this pokemon is that there is a dragon/ground pokemon in Zygarde which for the most part is better option. Especially offensively, would rather run Zygarde, see little reason to run Chomp instead.
Garchomp's best set is not its Scarf set, and is not the sole reason it's ranked in A. In fact, Garchomp is a pretty shitty user of Choice Scarf and is only so commonly used for its ability to pivot into Volcarona as well as revenge kill it pretty reliably. Otherwise it's a pile of garbage that baits in a plethora of Pokemon such as Ferrothorn, Steela, Landorus-T, Tangrowth, Bulu, etc.
The most effective Chomp sets are easily its Z move sets, more specifically its Offensive SR sets with Dragonium Z, which lets it blast through a number of its checks such as Tangrowth, Sableye, Lando, Mew. Being able to use a very strong Dragon STAB without locking itself into Outrage is really nice too. It seperates itself as an offensive rocker from Lando-T because of its superior Speed and Dragon-typing, which lets it check a few other things and not have to worry nearly as much about shit like fast Mew with Ice Beam. This set alone makes it good enough to be A rank, but this isn't even including the other possibilities it can run such as Firium Z for Steela/Bulu or Groundium Z for stuff like Clef.
The most effective Chomp sets are easily its Z move sets, more specifically its Offensive SR sets with Dragonium Z, which lets it blast through a number of its checks such as Tangrowth, Sableye, Lando, Mew. Being able to use a very strong Dragon STAB without locking itself into Outrage is really nice too. It seperates itself as an offensive rocker from Lando-T because of its superior Speed and Dragon-typing, which lets it check a few other things and not have to worry nearly as much about shit like fast Mew with Ice Beam. This set alone makes it good enough to be A rank, but this isn't even including the other possibilities it can run such as Firium Z for Steela/Bulu or Groundium Z for stuff like Clef.
6ft Torbjorn
formerly JoycapJoshST
ALL OF MY YES
A- down to B+
I think that Skarmory is definitely the most forgotten Pokemon in A-, and it's still sitting up there alongside the top-tier threats. I'm pretty sure it's been A- since the beginning, and since then, Landorus-Therian has started running Gravity, influxes of usage in Fire types such as Volcarona, Heatran and Charizard-Mega-Y, and influxes of usage in Zapdos. And this thing is beaten by any special attacker that's not a Psychic or Fairy type. Everything in S - A+ has some way of bypassing it bar Dugtrio and Tapu Bulu (The previously mention Landorus-Therian has Gravity, Magearna has Thunderbolt, Celesteela has Flamethrower, Mew stalls it out with its superior Speed and Power and can remove its entry hazards, the rest should be self-explanatory). And if you thought Toxapex was passive, Skarmory is even worse, because at least Toxapex can cripple its switch-ins with Scald. Skarmory is super easy to wall. You can effortlessly switch into Celesteela, Mew, Heatran, Zygarde, Charizard-Mega-Y, Tapu Koko, or Zapdos and kill it back. Yes, it can set up hazards as they switch in, but so can Ferrothorn, which is Skarmory's main competition (walls more threats, better attacking moves, Leech Seed, Iron Barbs) and therefore it shouldn't be sitting directly below Ferrothorn. I think Skarmory isn't on the same level as stuff like Latios and Tyranitar-Mega. It's more on par with Pokemon like Amoonguss IMO.
In
Now - I'm aware that previous post was blown out of proportion in a lot of areas, to wit I apologize. However - we need to realize how Skarmory is often the weakest link on the teams it is suitable on. Let me explain:
Stall:
Since the post quoted above - I have been informed that Skarmory's role is as a staple spiker on Stall and it's Deffoger (whether it be standard SPL stall or the dual Defog 'Ciele' stall). I have come to understand this, and IMO it's fine. HOWEVER: knowing this, multiple problems start to surface.
1. There is the matter of conflicts between it setting hazards and Defogging. I mentioned this last time: Defogging is contradictory to it's own role; breaks sturdy; and because of all this, leaves too much of a burden to keep hazards off come the time. Note the offensive hazard setters that beat it - Lando-T and Greninja - are also known to heavily dent MSab, giving it no incentive to stay in. This has been fact since the start of the Generation with the advent of Z-moves, which I will come back to later.
2. It's heavily constrained by it's item choice - it being in most cases Shed Shell to stop it being trapped by Magnezone. To that, I bring up this quote once again from reyscarface regarding Dugtrio stall, from the suspect test:
There is a reason... no... multiple reasons why I quote this once again.
Firstly, I understand Rey' to be a top OUPL/SPL player - and I am mentioning this as, in my honest opinion, one of the best posts regarding G7 stall in this forum's history. I don't watch a lot of top-level Smogon play, I must confess - but in the video regarding Dugtrio by aim and njnp - he is bought up multiple times:
Secondly - Skarmory is the only Pokemon protecting SPL Stall from being trampled on by strong Grass and Ground type spam (two types Dugtrio isn't known to trap in this metagame, mind you). But when it is removed from play this easily by a core this splashable, I begin to wonder how certain players even have a problem with the standard SabStall.
Before anyone jumps on me for this, I do understand that Magnezone did drop not too long ago due to the influx of Fire types in the metagame (Zard Y; Tran; Awak etc.). Now answer me this: how does the influx of Fire types help Skarmory in the slightest if it forces Zone to drop?
Balance:
The main thing that I think warrants a Skarmory drop regarding Balance is it's weakness to Z-Move lures. Balance is already the worst playstyle in the current metagame solely due to Z-moves and their offensive / coverage applications (see Grassium Heatran; Waterium Scolipede and others like Electrium Tapu Lele and the 3 forms of Z-Move Garchomp (namely Firium)), and Skamory's weakness to all of the above only makes this worse. Throw in it's passive nature and weakness to Taunt (which Balance has very few means of consistently stopping) and soon enough this bird becomes extremely dead weight.
Before we end off - am I the only one that thinks Skarm has 4MSS? 3 of them are taken up by Spikes/Roost/Defog, only to leave it to choose between Whirlwind (without it, it becomes setup fodder); Toxic; Counter and Brave Bird (the latter being FURTHER contradictory to it's role).
Anyway, that's all for now.
Possibly lower when Duggy eventually leaves - but that's for the there and then.
168+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 464-548 (154.1 - 182%) -- guaranteed OHKO
168+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 308-366 (84.8 - 100.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
168+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 286-337 (72.5 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
168+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 380-450 (94 - 111.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
168+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 374-444 (93.9 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
168+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 306-360 (100.6 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This mega is very underrated and there's a lot of hidden potential in this thing waiting for people to use.
Regarding the whole Venusaur situation, it 2HKO's defensive Mega Venusaur, which is actually very impressive, as Venusaur can't really do anything back to Camerupt
168+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 182-216 (50.1 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
On the defensive side, since it has decent bulk, the results speak for themselves.
252 SpA Magearna All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 216 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt-Mega: 198-234 (59.1 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Camerupt-Mega: 270-320 (80.5 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Camerupt-Mega: 300-354 (89.5 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Return vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Camerupt-Mega: 228-268 (68 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pinsir-Mega Earthquake vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Camerupt-Mega: 248-294 (74 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 216 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt-Mega: 204-240 (60.8 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Last edited:
In theory, these calcs are pretty impressive, but the issue is that Camerupt is so slow that it's going to have to take a hit before it can deal damage back, which means, unfortunately, that it can't switch into much and in a scenario against these mons (Bar Magearna, which it does do very well against) is only going to get one attack off before being revenged.Mega Camerupt - C Rank - > C+ or B-: When you really think about it Mega Camerupt is actually a heat mega in OU. It takes care of Magearna, which is honestly a huge threat in the meta, and Tangrowth, as well as Mega Pinsir(although it can't really switchin on pinsir). When people fear this mega and it's fire moves, people tend to go into Heatran as well, and of course it can take care of that as well. It also has decent bulk and it's sheer force ability will allow it to hit very hard as well. Because of the sheer force, Mega Venusaur's Thick Fat won't be much of a problem either. The only major common problem I see Mega Camerupt facing is Dugtrio, as it can easily trap it and revenge kill Camerupt.
168+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 464-548 (154.1 - 182%) -- guaranteed OHKO
168+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 308-366 (84.8 - 100.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
168+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 286-337 (72.5 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
168+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 380-450 (94 - 111.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
168+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 374-444 (93.9 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
This mega is very underrated and there's a lot of hidden potential in this thing waiting for people to use.
Regarding the whole Venusaur situation, it 2HKO's defensive Mega Venusaur, which is actually very impressive, as Venusaur can't really do anything back to Camerupt
168+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 182-216 (50.1 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
On the defensive side, since it has decent bulk, the results speak for themselves.
252 SpA Magearna All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 216 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt-Mega: 198-234 (59.1 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Camerupt-Mega: 270-320 (80.5 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Camerupt-Mega: 300-354 (89.5 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Return vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Camerupt-Mega: 228-268 (68 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pinsir-Mega Earthquake vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Camerupt-Mega: 248-294 (74 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Sure, you could put it on Trick Room, but Ash Greninja would fuck you for days, and Ash Gren is already one of the biggest threats to TR teams as is.
Last edited:
To successfully use Mega Camerupt, you gotta bring in a threat that forces out the mon on the field and then double to Mega Camerupt. That is how you can get free hits off with Mega Camerupt. Specs Greninja for example forces in AV Tangs, Ferrothorns, Toxapex and Celesteela which you can either U-Turn on or double to this monster. That way you can do damage without taking damage. This does force a specific way of building your team, though.
I still think Mega Camerupt should stay C for now. The riseproposal from AceTrainerNicholas with 90% calcs is both aesthetically and argumentatively not convincing.
edit: If any Set were to rise, I'd consider Sub 3 Atks the best one to prevent pivots from Toxapex into Landorus-T for example.
I still think Mega Camerupt should stay C for now. The riseproposal from AceTrainerNicholas with 90% calcs is both aesthetically and argumentatively not convincing.
edit: If any Set were to rise, I'd consider Sub 3 Atks the best one to prevent pivots from Toxapex into Landorus-T for example.
I agree with everything said above. It has the perfect typing to destroy magearna, tangrowth, Ferrothorn, Magnezone, Celesteela, etc. it is flawed because of the presence of Ash-Greninja and Dugtrio. Both of these are faster than Mega-Camerupt, but Mega Camerupt outspeeds almost anything under Trick room due to its 20 base speed. Mega Camerupt also has good bulk for OU standards. This is slightly offput by having no reliable recovery, but it has the bulk It needs to switch in on and KO threats in the tier. It has a great offensive ability, sheer force, which increases the power of effect moves by 30%, but nullifies their effect. This makes Mega-Camerupt's STAB moves hurt a lot more than you would think. Earth power turns into a 117 power STAB move and no drawbacks at all. Fire blast reaches a frightening 143 power STAB move, with its only drawback being its 15% chance to miss. Combine these powerful moves with a scary high 145 special attack, and you know you will hit hard. It can check and remove a surprising amount of threats With its tanky set, and Is shockingly useful compared to its ORAS counterpart. This Pokémon has a role of a bulky nuke in the tier, and many teams have felt its impact, one way or another. All in all, this camel needs a rise to C+\B-Mega Camerupt - C Rank - > C+ or B-: When you really think about it Mega Camerupt is actually a heat mega in OU. It takes care of Magearna, which is honestly a huge threat in the meta, and Tangrowth, as well as Mega Pinsir(although it can't really switchin on pinsir). When people fear this mega and it's fire moves, people tend to go into Heatran as well, and of course it can take care of that as well. It also has decent bulk and it's sheer force ability will allow it to hit very hard as well. Because of the sheer force, Mega Venusaur's Thick Fat won't be much of a problem either. The only major common problem I see Mega Camerupt facing is Dugtrio, as it can easily trap it and revenge kill Camerupt.
168+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 464-548 (154.1 - 182%) -- guaranteed OHKO
168+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 308-366 (84.8 - 100.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
168+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 286-337 (72.5 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
168+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 380-450 (94 - 111.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
168+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 374-444 (93.9 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
This mega is very underrated and there's a lot of hidden potential in this thing waiting for people to use.
Regarding the whole Venusaur situation, it 2HKO's defensive Mega Venusaur, which is actually very impressive, as Venusaur can't really do anything back to Camerupt
168+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 182-216 (50.1 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
On the defensive side, since it has decent bulk, the results speak for themselves.
252 SpA Magearna All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 216 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt-Mega: 198-234 (59.1 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Camerupt-Mega: 270-320 (80.5 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Camerupt-Mega: 300-354 (89.5 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Return vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Camerupt-Mega: 228-268 (68 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pinsir-Mega Earthquake vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Camerupt-Mega: 248-294 (74 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yes it is true that switching this thing in is one of its problems to success. Although I still do feel that playing around it and outplaying your opponent is always an option when your opponent's team has a significant weakness to Mega Camerupt. I feel as it would be much better if it had a bit more speed under its belt, but if you work around it you'll still be able to have great results. Now duggy......... if you see duggy....consider your Camerupt fucked.
- Status