So I need a gaming PC...

Bass

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On the subject of parts, I've seen many people saying certain items are "overkill" for what you need. Though I agree that something like an i7 is going to be overkill at this point in time, don't forget to think about the future too. You should know how quickly technology can develop and change, and when it comes to computers you never want to go for whatever is "adequate for the present". You really want to plan at least a couple of steps ahead so you're not forced to replace or upgrade your computer every year or two. You may spend a little more money initially when you build, but it's more efficient in the long run because your chosen parts will take longer to become outdated and obsolete.
The statement about whether something is overkill or not needs to be taken into proper context. I am well aware of the fact that technology advances quickly, thus "future proofing" is a prime consideration that many builders must make. However, you need to consider each part individually here. Since I am the one that stated that the i7 was overkill, allow me to explain my reasoning here, though it might get a bit technical and off topic. Nevertheless, this is an example of knowledge that I have learned over the years, and why it is a good idea to thoroughly research this stuff on your own.

Throughout the history of x86 CPUs, there have been periods where the bottleneck for most systems would alternate between hardware and software. You might remember your old Pentium system from the early 2000's to be rather slow and unresponsive, even back then. This was a point where CPUs have more or less reached a barrier in internal clock speeds due to thermal limitations (And CPU Instructions Per Clock Cycle has only increased marginally with each generation). That all changed when AMD and later Intel released dual core processors in the mid 2000's (Before this moment, AMD's CPUs were in fact superior). Software was beginning to become "multi-threaded", that is, optimized to take advantage of the multiple cores found in newer processors to execute certain tasks simultaneously. A majority of software in existence today has 1-4 threads on average, with the exception of certain professional applications like CAD and Video Encoding software, which can utilize 8 threads or more.

What does this mean in regards to an i7? The truth is, a quad core i7 and i5 are very similar internally. The only real difference between them, and why the i7 is at least $100 more is hyper threading. This technology allows each core in the CPU to execute two threads in parallel. Hence, an i7 appears to have 8 logical cores to your operating system. This might sound like a great thing, but as I said, most software does not have enough threads to take advantage of this technology. Unless you are in the group of professionals I mentioned in the above paragraph, you will never see the benefits of an i7 over an i5 with the same number of cores. You might think that software will become more multi-threaded over time, but this is unlikely to happen. The i7 920, which was released 4 years ago, was one of the first quad core CPUs to have this technology, but amount of software utilizing it has hardly increased since then, and currently it looks to be that way.


The point is, most software, including most games, aren't that taxing on the CPU these days, and it has been that way for sometime (arguably since the beginning of dual core processors, in fact). I don't expect to see any long term benefits in regards to buying the most powerful CPU now other than the advent of 4KHD video, though it is still at least five years away from being mainstream. I have an i5 2500K in my system, and I expect it to meet my needs for at least 4 years.

Keep in mind that this is just considering one component. The argument would be more difficult to make for video cards. Unlike the CPU, games are very demanding on your video card, so there is some benefit to having the most powerful video card available now. Once again though, I stress that context is important. Graphically, PC games have actually not improved very much in the past 4 years, due to the prolonged lifespan of consoles. For a while, Crysis, despite its age, strained the video card more than any other game until the very recent release of Battlefield 3. Still, if gaming is a primary consideration, this is one area where I would pay close attention to in regards to future proofing.
 
The statement about whether something is overkill or not needs to be taken into proper context. I am well aware of the fact that technology advances quickly, thus "future proofing" is a prime consideration that many builders must make. However, you need to consider each part individually here. Since I am the one that stated that the i7 was overkill, allow me to explain my reasoning here, though it might get a bit technical and off topic. Nevertheless, this is an example of knowledge that I have learned over the years, and why it is a good idea to thoroughly research this stuff on your own.

Throughout the history of x86 CPUs, there have been periods where the bottleneck for most systems would alternate between hardware and software. You might remember your old Pentium system from the early 2000's to be rather slow and unresponsive, even back then. This was a point where CPUs have more or less reached a barrier in internal clock speeds due to thermal limitations (And CPU Instructions Per Clock Cycle has only increased marginally with each generation). That all changed when AMD and later Intel released dual core processors in the mid 2000's (Before this moment, AMD's CPUs were in fact superior). Software was beginning to become "multi-threaded", that is, optimized to take advantage of the multiple cores found in newer processors to execute certain tasks simultaneously. A majority of software in existence today has 1-4 threads on average, with the exception of certain professional applications like CAD and Video Encoding software, which can utilize 8 threads or more.

What does this mean in regards to an i7? The truth is, a quad core i7 and i5 are very similar internally. The only real difference between them, and why the i7 is at least $100 more is hyper threading. This technology allows each core in the CPU to execute two threads in parallel. Hence, an i7 appears to have 8 logical cores to your operating system. This might sound like a great thing, but as I said, most software does not have enough threads to take advantage of this technology. Unless you are in the group of professionals I mentioned in the above paragraph, you will never see the benefits of an i7 over an i5 with the same number of cores. You might think that software will become more multi-threaded over time, but this is unlikely to happen. The i7 920, which was released 4 years ago, was one of the first quad core CPUs to have this technology, but amount of software utilizing it has hardly increased since then, and currently it looks to be that way.


The point is, most software, including most games, aren't that taxing on the CPU these days, and it has been that way for sometime (arguably since the beginning of dual core processors, in fact). I don't expect to see any long term benefits in regards to buying the most powerful CPU now other than the advent of 4KHD video, though it is still at least five years away from being mainstream. I have an i5 2500K in my system, and I expect it to meet my needs for at least 4 years.

Keep in mind that this is just considering one component. The argument would be more difficult to make for video cards. Unlike the CPU, games are very demanding on your video card, so there is some benefit to having the most powerful video card available now. Once again though, I stress that context is important. Graphically, PC games have actually not improved very much in the past 4 years, due to the prolonged lifespan of consoles. For a while, Crysis, despite its age, strained the video card more than any other game until the very recent release of Battlefield 3. Still, if gaming is a primary consideration, this is one area where I would pay close attention to in regards to future proofing.
Ideally this whole idea of "future proofing" comes down to what the person wants. If you are not on a budget then I don't understand why you shouldn't buy the best pieces of hardware available. Although you may not need it now, those budget parts will need upgrades years to come while the more expensive pieces of hardware can last you longer. Also you may not see a difference between an i5 and i7 in gaming per say, almost every other application there IS a distinct difference between the two. I doubt any knowledgeable builder would chose an i5 if they intended to build a machine for video creation and rendering. You also need to consider minor things such as the IGP for both processors. Some i5's run 2000's while i7's run 3000's (I'm talking about sandy bridge obviously).

However, if you are on a budget like the op, he needs something that can perform well and has a good price to performance ratio. Therefore an i7 really isn't an option for him despite it being better than the i5 due to it's higher pricing. The same can be said for someone recommending he builds an ivy based platform which would mean more money.

Also I'm not targeting your post specifically I just noticed that you replied to a similar one, so I thought I should give my thoughts on it as well. For all I know I'm agreeing with you and disagreeing with the other guy.
 

Bass

Brother in arms
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Ideally this whole idea of "future proofing" comes down to what the person wants. If you are not on a budget then I don't understand why you shouldn't buy the best pieces of hardware available. Although you may not need it now, those budget parts will need upgrades years to come while the more expensive pieces of hardware can last you longer. Also you may not see a difference between an i5 and i7 in gaming per say, almost every other application there IS a distinct difference between the two. I doubt any knowledgeable builder would chose an i5 if they intended to build a machine for video creation and rendering. You also need to consider minor things such as the IGP for both processors. Some i5's run 2000's while i7's run 3000's (I'm talking about sandy bridge obviously).

However, if you are on a budget like the op, he needs something that can perform well and has a good price to performance ratio. Therefore an i7 really isn't an option for him despite it being better than the i5 due to it's higher pricing. The same can be said for someone recommending he builds an ivy based platform which would mean more money.

Also I'm not targeting your post specifically I just noticed that you replied to a similar one, so I thought I should give my thoughts on it as well. For all I know I'm agreeing with you and disagreeing with the other guy.
That was kind of my point, only I was trying to emphasize that you will in fact see no difference in almost every application besides video encoding and rendering, in regards to the i7 vs i5 debate. And I am not trying to say I know with certainty how much multi-threading we expect to see in a majority of the software we use today, but I know for a fact that in the last four years since the i7 920 was introduced, there hasn't been much progress in this respect, and that things will continue to remain so for a little while longer.

I don't disagree with you if the buyer isn't on a budget though. The point I was trying to make was that the $100+ difference between an i5 and an i7 can be invested into other parts, such as a more powerful video card or perhaps even an SSD, mechanical keyboard, or IPS monitor (which I discussed in previous posts). You are right though, it really comes down to what the individual buyer needs. I am simply trying to say that their needs are what matter the most in terms of their buying diecsion, though some parts will improve the user experience for everyone (eg a higher resolution monitor) while some will only improve the epxerience for a few (Which is the point of the "i5 vs i7" debate above).
 
Sorry to hijack the thread, but I don't want to make a new one.

What exactly is involved in the process of physically building a computer? I would like to build a computer for my birthday later this year, but I'm intimidated by the prospect of putting the parts together. I've heard the 'research + YouTube videos' thing so many times before, but, uh, I don't know how to use any tools or anything, and I'm really, really, really uncoordinated (like my motor skills are so bad I can barely use a knife properly), and the only person in my house who could put it together for me is technophobic and has extremely shaky hands anyway. Given that I don't know anyone who could construct a computer with the parts I would buy for free, what should I do? Could I get someone at a computer store or something to do it for me for a fee? I really don't want to build it myself if I can get out of it, but nor do I want to spend money on a store-built one, so I'm wondering what other options are available.
 

aamto

on whom the three Fates smile
Sorry to hijack the thread, but I don't want to make a new one.

What exactly is involved in the process of physically building a computer? I would like to build a computer for my birthday later this year, but I'm intimidated by the prospect of putting the parts together. I've heard the 'research + YouTube videos' thing so many times before, but, uh, I don't know how to use any tools or anything, and I'm really, really, really uncoordinated (like my motor skills are so bad I can barely use a knife properly), and the only person in my house who could put it together for me is technophobic and has extremely shaky hands anyway. Given that I don't know anyone who could construct a computer with the parts I would buy for free, what should I do? Could I get someone at a computer store or something to do it for me for a fee? I really don't want to build it myself if I can get out of it, but nor do I want to spend money on a store-built one, so I'm wondering what other options are available.
long and short of it is you fit the parts into a motherboard (CPU, GPU, RAM, et cetera) then you mount the mobo in the PC case then you connect all the various wires (HDD, case fans, PSU connections). things only fit in one way; it is basically idiot proof. the only thing you can possibly screw up is forcing the CPU into the socket and clamping it down. and you would pretty much have to do this knowing that the CPU was seated incorrectly. the only tools you need is a screwdriver.

anyways, for those that don't want to do it, ecollegepc probably is the best bet for prebuilts (i know they ship to US, dunno about anywhere else in the world). you pick the parts you want and they assemble it for you. the biggest advantage to building a PC is knowing exactly what is inside of it, which is useful for trouble shooting down the road if needed.
 
The only tool you need is a screwdriver (well, probably screwdrivers, different sizes/shapes). There are a few times in the process that it helps to have stable hands; when you're putting the CPU in it's basically a couple hundred small pins that need to be aligned with the socket. Not "difficult", just requires a steady hand since you don't want to bend those pins. Putting in memory/graphics card is somewhat similar but obviously the contact points are much larger (think inserting something the width/strength of a USB drive, but longer), so being steady isn't as crucial.

Technically, not much is needed. The most important "technical" skill is probably attention to detail. I assembled my first computer when I was in middle school; didn't really know what any of the graphics/ram speeds meant or what the differences between any of the sockets were, but by literally matching numbers through Newegg (North American distributor) I got compatible parts. Then when I put everything together I used the manuals with a healthy dose of common sense. If you're not too confident I'd advise erring on the side of getting parts from more common manufacturers, if you're borderline on a part, just because their documentation will be much better (picture, blow-by-blow instructions, etc). YouTube might be helpful to ease you into the mentality of assembling a computer but I would personally stay away from watching the videos while actually putting everything together since a lot of the process has small quirks based on manufacturer/part that are all covered in the manual anyways.

Summary:
- Need screwdrivers
- Need steady hands for specific portions
- Need to have good attention to detail (double check your work, read the manual well)
- Need to have common sense
 

WaterBomb

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@jumpy - the most intricate part of putting the computer together is hooking everything up to the motherboard, only because everything is so tiny. Any other parts you're adding (hard drives, CD burners, etc) basically slide into the case in their own location, and they can only fit one way so it's pretty hard to screw up. When hooking different things up to the motherboard itself (RAM, Processor, power supply wires, fan wires), every port is designed and labeled specifically for one component. For example: the cooling fans that come as part of your computer case/shell will have wires that connect to a specific port on the motherboard, which will be clearly labeled. The wires also have a specific size of plug so they can't accidentally be plugged in the wrong place. Every wire that plugs into the motherboard will have some sort of arrangement of "pins" that matches to the corresponding input port on the board itself. Each part has a different number and arrangement of pins to avoid the assembler plugging things in wrong. I wouldn't go as far as to say it is "idiot proof", but if you're smart enough to not force a plug into a port it obviously doesn't fit into, you're good to go. When you buy a motherboard it comes with a lengthy manual with step-by-step instructions on how to assemble and attach all the parts to it, so going by that will help you assemble everything in the right order. The most difficult part for me was mounting the processor because the clip was a little weird looking, but wasn't something I could "screw up". Either it fit into place or it didn't, and it's obvious when something is out of place. The only mistake you could make (and it's not even one that endangers your computer) is failing to actually plug something in. If you do that, all that will happen is that part will fail to turn on, which you'll be able to notice and promptly fix.

You have to not be intimidated by this task, because it really is much easier than it appears. It is time consuming yes, but not difficult. The poster above me is correct on the tools, and let me elaborate a bit to tell you that you will need two different phillips head screwdrivers, one with a long neck and one with a short one. Some spots are tighter to get into than others so that's why you need different lengths. I personally did not need a flat head at all to put mine together, but that might be different depending on your parts. What also helps is if you can have another person shine a flashlight in while you work to make it easier to see.

tl;dr everything on your motherboard is labeled with what goes where, so the only mistake you can make is forgetting to hook something up. If that happens, you will know pretty quickly upon turning your computer on, at which point you just have to turn it back off, take another look inside and find the unplugged wire.

A WORD OF ADVICE WHEN PURCHASING YOUR PARTS: MAKE SURE ALL THE WIRES OF YOUR POWER SUPPLY CAN REACH ALL THE CORNERS OF THE MOTHERBOARD. Since you're buying parts from different manufacturers, they were not all designed to perfectly fit together. You want to make sure your power supply wires are long enough so they can reach where they need to go. I had a problem where the wires to power my processor weren't long enough, so I had to order an extension part online so the wires could reach with the power supply mounted in its proper place.
 

cookie

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My housemate was telling me about potential problems with the BIOS needing upgrading, is this an easy thing to resolve (or something that happens only rarely)? I'm looking to build myself a machine next month.
 

Misty

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BIOS upgrades are usually handled either by Windows Update or going to the manufacturer's website to download it. It's pretty painless. Even prebuilt machines get BIOS updates.
 

Bass

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The act of upgrading the BIOS isn't that difficult in of itself, though on hardware enthusiast sites, there is a lot of debate as to what the "safest" or "best" method is for doing it. I tend to do it by downloading a ROM file from the manufacturer's website and flashing it directly from a USB drive.

If you are buying a motherboard with a chipset that has been out for a while, you probably won't need to update the BIOS, but as I bought my i5 2500K on launch day (and hence a P67 motherboard as well), I ended up experiencing several minor but annoying issues for a little while. I ended updating my BIOS about 3 times before they were all fully resolved.
 
Thanks, guys. I definitely think after reading your posts, I should not mess with the parts alone -- not because I think it's hard or confusing anymore, just because I have shaky hands, poor vision, and no motor skills for anything on a smaller scale than putting my shoes on --, but it's good to know there are places that will assemble it with the parts I select. To be honest, theorycrafting my PC is the interesting part of the process to me (I would like to build both for the immense practical benefits and the learning experience). I'll be sure to ask again in the future if I need any help. Thanks for all the information and suggestions!
 

cookie

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maybe you should craigslist for someone to put your parts together for you
 
That's a good idea, but I heard from someone that when you put ads on Craigslist, you only get replies from crazy people :(

Admittedly, that person was putting out an ad for someone to clean their house in exchange for board, so maybe it's just the nature of his message that attracts lunatics. So I'll definitely consider that -- thanks, cookie!
 

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