First of all, who are you to say that what our soldiers are doing is in our own well being? Secondly, being a soldier is a job. Just like any other. Are the guys who work at 7-11 heroes? How about coal miners?
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Soldiers Are Not Heroes
- Thread starter Siete
- Start date
- Status
protecting our nation is not in our best interests..?
workers at 7-11 do not commonly risk their lives to protect the world in which we live; coal miners risk their lives, but not really for what I see as an important reason.
are firefighters and policemen, the ones who follow the laws and don't abuse their powers, therefore not heroes, because they get paid?
Now replace "brainwashed" with "born", and "blow up" with "wear the clothing their parents tell them to wear." See a similarity?
I hope that I wasn't the only person who thought this line was irritating. I'm glad to see that the old Republican argument that Democrats are actively working against our nation hasn't died out yet.
Do us all a favor, and less to your the annoying Republican representative (not all of them, but there was one) when they tell you not to fill out the census. That way, when they redistribute voting, your vote has less of an impact.
I think that there are a couple differences, the US though accepting collateral damage, and low level war crimes, does try to avoid them, Al Qaeda does not.
If you fight to protect your country, you could be considered a hero. Fighting miles away from your country for political reasons/oil, er, justice, democracy and freedom does not make you a hero.
The point you are trying to bring up is totally irrevelant. Adults have free will to do what they want, while parents have control over their children until they are mature enough to make their own decisions themselves. If your parents said "wear this t-shirt" to you when you were 5, you would do so. Now if your parents come and tell you to trash your Pokemon games you can make your own decision, however.
If one country is waging war for freedom from oppression from another country, then why is the other country fighting in the war? What freedoms are they fighting for?
Show me any instances of oil profiteering from these wars. Seriously. The oldest accusation in the book and the most unfounded.
I'd say fighting for justice democracy and freedom is a pretty admirable thing to do. The terrorist groups the U.S. is fighting want nothing more than to see us die. They don't care about Iraq or Afghanistan civilians because terrorists groups don't come from either of these. Insurgencies do. AQ is not an insurgency. The U.S. is eliminating groups that continue to attack us and will not stop unless they are completely destroyed.
Also how is blowing yourself up the same as defending your perimiter when you don't know who is friend or foe.
@cantab
so what's your point? i acknowledge that units and individuals acting indepenent of the army can do terrible atrocious things. but they are isolated in that regard. it is not the way we fight the war. it is from the command of one in a company that trickles down to his subordinates.
and if the incidents are not usual then what is the problem? i'd have a problem if the army tactic was to kill as many civilians as possible but it's not. The war in both countries has been fought to win "The hearts and minds of the people."
yes a company can be called a unit. i refer to my batallion as a unit. anything smaller than that is usually reffered to by it's name such as platoon or squad.
@wikey
then who is supposed to say that soldiers are acting for our well being?
and i don't exactly remember the last time a 7/11 employee had to break down a door in the middle of the night hoping that terrorists on the other side weren't waiting for him of that the door was rigged to explode. being a soldier is not a job like any other. so stop talking about it like you know what you are talking about.
The Iraq War is not related with oil? After the US invasion, the biggest oil fields in the country were sold to foreign companies. Let's make a breakdown of Iraq's biggest oil fields:
West Qurna (21 billion barrels proven reserves, second largest in the world): Co-owned by Italian, Russian, Chinese, Malaysian, Dutch, British and American companies.
Az-Zubayr field (4.5 billion barrels proven reserves): Co-owned by Italian (%33), Iraqi (%25), US (%23), South Korean (%19) companies.
Halfaya field (4.1 billion barrels): %50 Chinese, %25 Malaysian and French
Majnoon Field (3 billion barrels): %45 Dutch, %30 Malaysian, %25 Iraqi
Iraq has the largest oil fields in the world, and they don't even own half of their fields. You do realize the world has a shortage of fuel, right?
West Qurna (21 billion barrels proven reserves, second largest in the world): Co-owned by Italian, Russian, Chinese, Malaysian, Dutch, British and American companies.
Az-Zubayr field (4.5 billion barrels proven reserves): Co-owned by Italian (%33), Iraqi (%25), US (%23), South Korean (%19) companies.
Halfaya field (4.1 billion barrels): %50 Chinese, %25 Malaysian and French
Majnoon Field (3 billion barrels): %45 Dutch, %30 Malaysian, %25 Iraqi
Iraq has the largest oil fields in the world, and they don't even own half of their fields. You do realize the world has a shortage of fuel, right?
Wow. First of all, we are saying all soldiers are not heroes, except for these few 16 million men that fought in World War 2? Sounds a little hypocritical to me.
And, is that the best you can come up with for why Bush is like al-Qaeda? Because that's pretty weak. Do you think it was all Bush's decision to go to war? There is this thing we have in America, called a checks and balances system, and you can't go to war without the consent of Congress and the Senate. For reference, there was an overwhelming support for the war from over 200 people. The senate's vote was: 77-23. The House of Congress' vote was: 296-133. Well over a two thirds majority supporting Bush going to war with Iraq.
And the soldiers there don't have to fight and risk their lives for the Congress you elected. It's their choice. They chose to serve in the Armed Forces. We don't have drafts forcing you into the war.
Can you explain to me where the US makes war crimes? and who do we massacre? I'm a tad confused by this statement because it doesn't make much sense.
Next time, make some claims that are actually supported by evidence and not some ridiculous opinion.
Edit: I found this nice interactive map for Plopper to get his facts straight. It can be found here:
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2008/05/oil_imports.html
All of Saudi Arabia amounts to 2nd in world Oil Production while it pales in comparison to Canada. If we were really in an Oil War, we could go take over Canada which is a lot closer and less defended. Not to mention there are plenty of other places that we could take for Oil reserves, but dont. Why? After all
undispitu3d already beat me to the response. but of course oil fields are going to be bought and sold. would you rather they just sit there? but it's not like the u.s. went to war with iraq in order to own a less than a quarter of the az zubayr field. unless you are saying we had a secret deal with the chinese so they could have half of the halfaya fields. besides that how much oil has the u.s. taken? not a drop. if oil is received from iraq it's been purchased on the world market.
on top of that the Iraqis still own the fields and only sold the access to foreign companies. the deals have to be approved through the iraqi government as well.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20602099&sid=a2y878EVLz0o
I'm not going to dignify that with a response. I responded to someone saying that we should respect people who risk their lives for our well being. I replied by saying two things: There are plenty of other people whose jobs put them in danger and whose jobs directly or indirectly make our lives better and also that I'm not willing to accept the claim that what our soldiers do overseas makes our lives better.
EDIT: How does killing people in other countries protect our nation? Every day our military is overseas acting as an occupying force we are sowing more and more seeds of hatred in the people whose countries we are occupying. The reason terrorist leaders are able to brainwash people into being suicide bombers is because those people have been on the losing end of so many dick moves by our country. Go ask someone from a "terrorist" country why the terrorists want to blow us up.
I didn't realize that workers at 7-11 had to put their lives in and have to worry if they would ever see their family again from getting attacked by enemy combatants every day. Thanks for informing me.
Coal miners I don't consider heroes but their job is dangerous and they are ballsy to do their jobs, and they should be commended for doing a job few wish to do.
@whoever said on the previous page (objection iirc, too lazy to look) that they can choose not to follow through with orders, please, never post again. You don't know what the hell you are talking about. If they don't do their orders they get yelled at, their lives are hell, depending on the result of not following orders they may be court marshalled and thrown in prison. No soldier is going to do that, despite what the hell hollywood may have told you otherwise.
I think the problem with many of the posts here are many people don't come from a military family or, quite frankly, know anything about the military. I do come from a military family and trust me, its very orderly. If a superior officer asks you to take a shit on the floor and lick it, you do it. (that might be an extreme example, but i'm trying to make a point). Soldiers put their lives in danger for us. Regardless of how you feel about a war, its a hell of a lot better to fight it on the visiting field than the home field. Also, you must realize that despite how glamorous hollywood makes the common soldier look, they are average men and women. They are apt to make mistakes just like you and me. Yes, civilians die in combat, but its not their fault entirely. They can't control where the bullets go, exactly. There are stray shots and ricochet's and everyone who isn't drunk, retarded or completely dilusional should know that at the least.
This is exactly why many soldiers are not heroes. A hero is someone with the courage to stand up for what is right no matter what the consequences. I have far more respect for the soldier who refuses to go to war and is sent to jail than I do for the soldier who kills people in an unjust war because he was following orders.
You won't respond because you don't actually know. but at least you are dignified. You are the one who shouldn't be saying anything about soldiers since you have no clue.
What is it that you think soldiers are doing exactly? Are they just mindlessly going around killing civiians? Why can't you accept the claim that our soldiers are actually doing something of worth for the U.S? Would it be better to just let terrorists groups grow stronger to be able to attack us? Should we just leave two countries open to groups that want to spread Islamic extremism all over the globe? And we are not occupying anything in Iraq. We have been pulling out and turning over everything to the Iraqis. Our soldiers can't leave their FOB's without Iraqi police escort. Not too mention that much of the population has been glad of our presence. You forget that we have rebuilt much Iraq and made it better than before.
Let me tell you the Iraqis had it made under Saddam though didn't they? His secret police only took out a few tongues every now and again. His sons only murdered a few people. Saddam only gassed a couple thousand of the Kurds. Paradise for sure.
Iraq and Afghanistan are not terrorist countries. Al Qaeda comes from Pakistan. i'll probably say this 30 more times though.
also with Alan. being a member of the military i think i'm pretty qualified to say that you are trained to respond to orders without much of a question. you can say that people should be held completely responsible for their actions but it's a little different when it's i order you to kill this person or i kill you. Or was all of the german military just that evil? you should look up groupthink in any psych book or website.
Can you give a specific case where a US soldier was executed for disobeying an order, and specifically for disobeying an order (ie. not disobeying an order and then shooting his superior). I've never ever heard of that happening, and I honestly don't buy it.
Also a hero does what is right, not what they are told. A hero is not a puppet. A hero doesn't go against their own moral principals because they might get yelled at (oh noes), or jailed.
If there is any one occupation that is categorically heroic, "soldier" probably comes closest to it. Essentially what a soldier does is give up their personal freedom to do tasks solely for the benefit of their country. They have no control over where they are sent, limitations are placed on their ability to speak in public, all of the liberties the civilian enjoys are severely curtailed. The only reason civilians have those liberties is because of soldiers in the past. Conscientious objection goes out the window. You cannot object to what your CO tells you like you can reject what your boss tells you (though its unwise to do so in their presence)
Jihadists are not soldiers. They do not fight for a nation. They claim to fight for a religion but the greatest number of victims actually share that religion. We wouldn't have so many of what Ancien Regime calls "mass murders" if our enemy didn't view maximizing collateral damage and civilian deaths as a strategic necessity.
There's also the usual stunning display of ignorance about what the military actually does. Yes, soldiers are trained in armed combat and expected to be able to kill any target with maximum efficiency. That is not the only job a soldier though. Part of the military strategy in Iraq and Afghanistan is working with the locals to rebuild their society. They provide aid, leadership, and training. Outside of major battlefields the military is conducting research or maintaining security equipment. Some people in the military are lucky enough to never have to fire a shot at an enemy combatant, pirate, smuggler, etc.
This Facebook group fails to understand that, and as Synre said it is unlikely any of these folks would sign up for military duty. World peace is never going to happen until one human never wants to dominate another. Since that is probably never going to happen, the best you can hope for is peace through strength. You must make the cost of dominating another so high as to dissuade all but the most ambitious, driven people. You can't stop those people with just threats, they require action. That's where the military comes in. People can grouse and complain about it and work themselves up into a frenzy over the specifics, but soldiers allow the rest of us the option to live comfortably and do that.
Jihadists are not soldiers. They do not fight for a nation. They claim to fight for a religion but the greatest number of victims actually share that religion. We wouldn't have so many of what Ancien Regime calls "mass murders" if our enemy didn't view maximizing collateral damage and civilian deaths as a strategic necessity.
There's also the usual stunning display of ignorance about what the military actually does. Yes, soldiers are trained in armed combat and expected to be able to kill any target with maximum efficiency. That is not the only job a soldier though. Part of the military strategy in Iraq and Afghanistan is working with the locals to rebuild their society. They provide aid, leadership, and training. Outside of major battlefields the military is conducting research or maintaining security equipment. Some people in the military are lucky enough to never have to fire a shot at an enemy combatant, pirate, smuggler, etc.
This Facebook group fails to understand that, and as Synre said it is unlikely any of these folks would sign up for military duty. World peace is never going to happen until one human never wants to dominate another. Since that is probably never going to happen, the best you can hope for is peace through strength. You must make the cost of dominating another so high as to dissuade all but the most ambitious, driven people. You can't stop those people with just threats, they require action. That's where the military comes in. People can grouse and complain about it and work themselves up into a frenzy over the specifics, but soldiers allow the rest of us the option to live comfortably and do that.
It wasn't me who said that, but I will challenge the point you make here. You are assuming that, for a soldier, their own personal well-being is more important than justice, since otherwise they would happily object to their superiors if it were the just thing to do. If your assumption holds true, then in order for soldiers to be heroes, you'd have to define "hero" as someone who values their own well-being more than they value what is right.
Let's say that nobody told you to take a shit on the floor and lick it. What reason would you have to do it? None whatsoever. Therefore, if a superior officer asks you to take a shit on the floor and lick it and you do it, you are succumbing to authority, and just because someone's in a higher position than you doesn't automatically mean that they're right and you're wrong.
You missed the part where I was being sarcastic, as evidenced by the "Really guys?" at the end. Thanks for taking me out of context though.
I can't believe I pretty much agree with a Deck Knight post.
There have been cases of soldiers disobeying orders. I think there was one regarding orders to take an unarmoured truck through an area where insurgents were known to be conducting ambushes. But such incidents are very rare, for the reasons you describe.
The contention of myself, and of many, is that applying for, getting, and having, a job, no matter how risky, is not in and of itself heroic. To call it thus is to devalue the actual heroic acts that many people, both in the military and elsewhere, have conducted.Deck Knight said:
Putting your life on the line for a cause you think is greater (in this case your country) is inherently heroic, possibly the traditional definition of it.
Well I have heard someone I know in the military reference how being in the military 'isn't too bad as long as you don't get deployed' and that most people just try to get out without being deployed and get their money for education.
Though I wonder can you really support troops doing something you don't agree with? can you support troops doing things like the mai lai massacre?
Though I wonder can you really support troops doing something you don't agree with? can you support troops doing things like the mai lai massacre?
Well that person you were talking to is probably a can of garbage. I can't stand people like him who join just to take the benefits of the army without ever doing their job. I'll tell you that's not the major consensus of the soldiers in the army. I've had two brothers go and a third on the way. I'll be going at some point in my career. Of all the soldiers i've talked to that have deployed i can't even remember one who regretted going. I know soldiers who've gotten tired of deploying once their third one comes around and they've been in country for multiple years. but it's ultimately the job we train for. People that try and avoid that are people that never should have joined in the first place.
I'm joining the military soon, just as a means to go to college and learn new things. In a way I agree with the facebook since there are people out there that join just so they can be hardcore (or whatever delusion their mind is causing them to live in).
I know people that joined and just want to shoot others or joined out of racism. Its pretty much all whatever anyone is making it out to be; to me though its pretty much black and white. I've seen stories of men sacrificing themselves and others doing terrible things to others just because they're "soldiers" and they think they're gods among men.
War is war; and blood may demand blood from time to time but when it comes down to it most soldiers are not heroes just because they joined for all the wrong reasons and put on a uniform. The ones with the good intentions are the heroes for going out there trying to protect not only our freedom but the freedom of the rest of the world (since terrorism is a war with the whole world - infidels, nonbelievers etc). Some people way up there in power may be having us go to war for all the wrong reasons but some people do have good hearts and those are the ones we have to support. You get ups and downs with pretty much anything, this is something that isn't excluded; and that is a fact.
I know people that joined and just want to shoot others or joined out of racism. Its pretty much all whatever anyone is making it out to be; to me though its pretty much black and white. I've seen stories of men sacrificing themselves and others doing terrible things to others just because they're "soldiers" and they think they're gods among men.
War is war; and blood may demand blood from time to time but when it comes down to it most soldiers are not heroes just because they joined for all the wrong reasons and put on a uniform. The ones with the good intentions are the heroes for going out there trying to protect not only our freedom but the freedom of the rest of the world (since terrorism is a war with the whole world - infidels, nonbelievers etc). Some people way up there in power may be having us go to war for all the wrong reasons but some people do have good hearts and those are the ones we have to support. You get ups and downs with pretty much anything, this is something that isn't excluded; and that is a fact.
I can sympathise with your view on the army my family shares much the same view but think about it this way. Soldiers are those gave us democrecy, Soldiers are who keep peace, Soldiers are those who have given the ultimate of a human, to die for ones country and for the wellbeing of those who inhabit it? I believe that is truely heroic. You may not like the killing involved and the bloodshed and the loss but you cannot deny they have those men out there are fighting for us in courage and bravery. No soldiers our world would be a dark place full of the men like Mao, Hitler and Starlin. So I give the greatest of thanks to those defending our country from the depths of my heart.
- Status