• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

SpecsMence or SpecsLatias

Well IMO Mence is better because of it's incredible suprise factor and a lot of better moves actually: a far stronger fire move (Flamethrower or Fire Blast) better than Latias's only option HP fire. Hydro Pump, an underated move actually DM, Fire Blast and H Pump alone have fantastic coverage hitting nearly everything for un-resisted damage.

@Ubers are Awesome: Well T-Bolt is in theory useless unless against a x4 weak pokemon (gyara) as T-Bolt with x2 damage say against a regular flying or water pokemon is damage 190 (I Think or 180) whereas DM is 210 so actually it would be smarter to use DM. Looking at Mence's better movepool (IMO) Fire blast and Hydro Pump it is more enviable than T-bolt and if you really wanted an electric move there is always HP electric.
 
Chinese Dood said:
Actually DM is 180 (120 * 1.5 = 180) while 2x Tbolt is 190 (95 * 2 = 190), but of course, not a huge difference.
Click to expand...

*Draco Meteor has 140 BP, giving 140 x 1.5 = 210 for Draco Meteor, compared to 95 x 2 = 190 for Thunderbolt.

Personally I would use Latias, seeing as I always use +Speed natures the speed boost is appreciated and the 130 spdef helps amazingly. Trick works well, but I'd use DM/DP/Surf/TBolt, just for late game sweeping.

As Veed mentioned, Pursuit fucks both over so that's a moot point.

SR weakness is what gets it in the bag for me mostly, having double the possible switch ins is great for a choiced attacker.

Finally, this surprise factor is fine once, but say Hippowdon switches in and gets OHKOd, they can just switch in Blissey and T-Wave your switch in, or even more scarily, SD Lucario or Agility Metagross switching in and setting up doesn't make the surprise factor worth it. I know this is essentially the same for Latias, but at least then you can be pretty sure that Blissey is coming in right away so you can at least Trick it.
 
First of all, Blissey does not reside on every team, and since they both have problems with it I think its hard for her to be the tiebreaker. Similarly, stealth rock is not a permanent fixture. Id say youre just as likely to get a rapid spin in as you are to get trapped by pursuit with Latias.

Shouldnt it be based more on what the rest of your team is like? If you need another fire move or can really benefit from switching into something Intimidated, go with Mence. If not, Latias is surely the better choice as it can absorb special blows even without EV investment.

I read most of the thread and dont think I saw it mentioned, but isnt a big Mence pro that he can hit both Celebi and Jirachi, both who love to u-turn on Latias, for super effective damage? (maybe OHKO?)
 
Thunderbolt can be smarter than Draco Meteor. Draco Meteor lowers SAtk by two stages after usage. But SpecsMence and SpecsLatias are hit-and-run Pokemon. I use SpecsMence for the surprise factor, Intimidate and the Fire move.
 
Latias for sure, but that does not mean i would not use SpecsMence at all.

Latias is faster, which is nice to come in on things like Infernape without much fear. The 350 Spe vs 299 is definitely a huge plus, and the SpA stat difference honestly does not matter too much with Specs and such high powered moves.

Thunderbolt + Draco Meteor on Latias is nice, giving pretty good coverage, and also a powerful move which Latias can use, and also gives a nice counter to Vaporeon and other water types, without having to switch out afterwards.

The main reason i dislike SpecsMence, is Draco Meteor and stealth rock weakness combine to make Mence's life short. I mean when using Draco Meteor, you will be switching out and in a lot, and with a stealth rock weakness, Salamence can struggle to do this, however could be nice with Wish Support from Blissey for example.

Latias also has the nice move which cripples opponents walls which try to soak up the Draco Meteor with trick, which can screw up Blissey and other Steels/SpD Walls.

I also guess Salamence has another pro with Fire Blast in its arsenal, allowing it to hit Steels on the switch for SE, most likely OHKOing or 2HKOing the majority of them.

But i still think Latias wins in the end >.>

EDIT: I also think that Salamence having a x4 weakness to Ice beam as being a problem, as it can cause more frequent switches, and also that Latias can usually take a non STABd super effective hit and survive generally.
 
Most, if not all, of the points and facts have been said multiple times, and I'm not going to repeat them. I mean that Latios > Salamence of course.
The thing I am going to say is this:

Either one of them can be effective, If that means by right support or right use in a team. Basically, these pokemon and their Specs set will be used depending on the need of them on a team, and if they infact get use, they will have the right support. The opposite is also true.
For instance, if they have an infernape weakness, a lot of offensive teams will consider Latias. With that choice, a smart thing to do is to insert pokemon that can take advantage of pokemon like CB Scizor and CB Tar, like Lucario and Heatran.
If they need a lure for Phisical walls like Gliscor, Hippodon and even Donphan, SpecsMence can fit the bill nicely. It can then be supported by a Rapid Spinner like Forretress or Starmie, and pokemon that can take advantage of things like Blissey and Suicune are reccomended.

Overall, a pokemon will be chosen when the need arises, so the question isn't 'what pokemon is better' but 'what pokemon can better fit my team'.
 
Blue_Tornado said:
Most, if not all, of the points and facts have been said multiple times, and I'm not going to repeat them. I mean that Latios > Salamence of course.
The thing I am going to say is this:

Either one of them can be effective, If that means by right support or right use in a team. Basically, these pokemon and their Specs set will be used depending on the need of them on a team, and if they infact get use, they will have the right support. The opposite is also true.
For instance, if they have an infernape weakness, a lot of offensive teams will consider Latias. With that choice, a smart thing to do is to insert pokemon that can take advantage of pokemon like CB Scizor and CB Tar, like Lucario and Heatran.
If they need a lure for Phisical walls like Gliscor, Hippodon and even Donphan, SpecsMence can fit the bill nicely. It can then be supported by a Rapid Spinner like Forretress or Starmie, and pokemon that can take advantage of things like Blissey and Suicune are reccomended.

Overall, a pokemon will be chosen when the need arises, so the question isn't 'what pokemon is better' but 'what pokemon can better fit my team'.
Click to expand...

You mean Latias right not Latios? Anyway, yeh Blue Tornado has hit the nail on the head. Really it depends on what team you are building. Salamence has Less speed sure but it has intimidate another thing to add into the account meaning it basically has Latias's Sp Def bulk in Def (Maybe not the same but close).

Mence is great for the suprise factor and perhaps the better movepool but latias is better for breaking down walls (Trick), Survivabillity (Neutral SR) and Better spe. Take your pick but they are both fantastic specs pokemon for the sole reason of their massive STAB DM 210 Power after STAB is taken into calculation.
 
Revolution.Z said:
Anyway, yeh Blue Tornado has hit the nail on the head.
Click to expand...
Is that a good thing? 0.o
And yes, I meant Latias of course. I was just saying that they are both used based on their contributions to a team (or someithng like that) and should be supported when used to complement them and make them work to their full potential.
 
As many others before me have stated, I also believe that the better Choice Specs user between the two is Latias. What I really dislike about Salamence is it's weakness to Stealth Rock, which can limit the amount of turns it can switch in, as opposed to Latias, who isn't weak to Stealth Rock at all. Not only that, but I've always thought Trick to be an attractive option that Choiced users, such as Latias herself, can utilize. With Trick, Latias is able to cripple previous would-be counters such as Blissey or Snorlax, making it easier for other Pokémon to take advantage of a Tricked wall and sweep. I've always considered Latias's typing to be slightly more beneficial to Salamence's, although Intimidate is a good ability to take advantage of.

Another thing about Choice Specs Salamence is that, once you figure out it's set, it becomes incredibly easy to wall. Blissey can repeatedly switch in to take Draco Meteors, while using Softboiled to recover any damage taken. I admit, SpecsMence is cool for the surprise factor, but I feel that the cons to using it don't outweigh the pros, as opposed to SpecsLatias.

Others have stated that Salamence gets a better movepool, but I don't think having a bigger movepool actually makes Latias's movepool inferior itself. I mean, if Surf already deals with most Steel-types and Tyranitar, why do you need anything else? Besides, Surf is a lot more foolproof than relying on the shaky accuracy of Hydro Pump.
 
Think about it guys, if you are making a team based around SpecsMence, chances are you're going to have a rapid spinner.

Just throwin' that out there.
 
I love the surprise factor specsmence once had and still does, but specslatias is definately better. She's faster, not weak to rocks, and bulkier in a way. At least on the special defensive side. She may be pursuit bait, but she is still a superior specs user.
 
Latias is also a very good bait for a SD Lucario sweep.
Say a Choiced Tyranitar comes in and pursuits Latias. Latias faints and in comes SD Luke, basically that Luke gets a free SD and you can proceed to sweep. It's a strategy I see on many of the teams I have faced in the past.
 
Latias has higher base speed, no SR weakness, can counter Infernape, only 2x ice weakness, Trick, and Surf/Thunderbolt. On a Choice set, you want the best neutral coverage possible, and Dragon + Water provides equal coverage as Dragon + Fire, so if moves aren't better for Salamence, then the only advantage he has is Intimidate. Remember, neutral coverage is all that matters on a choice set, and both are equal.
 
Intimidate, Fire moves, and the fact that it's not obviously a special attacker when it gets sent out (Latias pretty much always is, though one Outraged my Snorlax once) are Salamence's only important advantages that I can find. Latias answers Hydro Pump with Surf, has all the same resistances, and the same power, while being as fast as Gengar and having Trick.
 
It's not really an "either or" thing, seeing as they have distinct advantages over each other. Latias has a higher Speed stat and less vulnerability to Ice, making it better versus stuff like Infernape, other Salamence, bulky Waters that barely survive one hit of Draco Meteor, etc. Latias also has Trick.

Salamence has Intimidate, and is not usually seen as a special attacker yet is still a rather effective Specs user.

There's no "which is better" debate here.
 
Chris is me said:
It's not really an "either or" thing, seeing as they have distinct advantages over each other. Latias has a higher Speed stat and less vulnerability to Ice, making it better versus stuff like Infernape, other Salamence, bulky Waters that barely survive one hit of Draco Meteor, etc. Latias also has Trick.

Salamence has Intimidate, and is not usually seen as a special attacker yet is still a rather effective Specs user.

There's no "which is better" debate here.
Click to expand...
It is more of a 'What are the adventages over each other?' thread.
 
I was pondering this question to myself earlier. I haven't played in a few months, but the last team I used had a SpecsMence and I quickly became a huge fan. As you can see from the date of the RMT though, it was a few weeks before Latias became OU so if I had to do things over now, would I use SpecsLatias over SpecsMence?

In that particular example, I would stay with SpecsMence, definitley.

It's certainly nothing to do with surprise value though - I think too many people are playing up this supposed 'surprise factor' of SpecsMence but in reality the surprise factor rarely buys you much advantage - I don't know about you but when I see a Salamence my default reaction is 'here comes a Draco Meteor.' Obviously there's a chance of a DD (it seems as though MixMence and DDMence are used almost exactly as much as each other - 43.2% use Draco Meteor compared to 43.8% that use Dragon Dance) but DDMence usually come out late in the game so that's at least a rough indication. What I'm saying is something like Hippowdon or Gliscor is very unlikely to be a default switch into a Salamence. It's a lot more likely to be something to absorb a DM that won't care too much if it's x1.5 instead of x1.3. I would never use SpecsMence for surprise factor because his counters and checks are too similar to the standard MixMence.

I think a massive advantage in Salamence's favor here is his neutrality to Pursuit combined with the fact that Scizor really doesn't like to switch in. This is a frightening contrast to Latias - over 52% of Scizors use Pursuit and all of them love to switch into Latias.

588 Atk 60BP Pursuit vs 4/0 Latias = 78% - 92%
588 Atk 80BP Pursuit vs 4/0 Latias = 103% - 122%

Similar case with Tyranitar who dislikes switching into Salamence for fear of Brick Break on the mix set or a DD EQ but will happily throw his 445 lb frame at almost any Latias.

Another point in Salamence's favor is Intimidate. If I were to use Latias on that team I wouldn't have Intimidate anywhere which is a bad idea in general for a balanced team that doesn't have a dedicated physical wall. It's just a fantastic asset for checking physical sweepers. On the note of physical sweepers, Salamence also has a Bug resistance for what it's worth.

Salamence's SR weakness is annoying but the team in question has a spinner so I'm going to partially overlook that issue. Latias does have a means of dealing with Blissey but it's possible that SpecsMence will be able to grab one or two kills before the opponent even starts making Blissey his default switch-in to Mence. I also don't like how Trick compromises Latias coverage and only allows him one non-Dragon attack. It wouldn't be a huge issue if I had a Magnezone on my team but I don't so blah.

Basically, Latias may have more potential offensively but Salamence can serve a few more roles for the team and using Latias would open up a few weaknesses I could do without. For example, Salamence is a decent check to Scizor and Lucario, Latias increases my weakness to those two Pokemon (Latias is OHKO'd by +2 Extremespeed after SR 41% of the time).

I'm gonna give a very broad answer and say that it depends on the team as I've hopefully shown here.
 
Lee, things like Tyranitar take advantage of both equally, as it can switch in after a DM and Pursuit both for tons of damage. The point of Pursuit is pretty moot, the only advantage Salamence has in this regard is that the number 8 pokemon wrecks him, instead of #1(who can still force him out every time, without Magnezone support). They really depend on which one you need for your team. You make the point that Salamence is a decent check for Scizor and Lucario, which is fine, but other teams(more balanced) would rather use Latias to beat Infernape, Heatran, Vaporeon, and Zapdos. BTW, how exactly does Salamence fare against a pokemon who can abuse STAB U-Turn + Stealth Rock to wear it down, or SD and OHKO with Bullet Punch?
 
Both have their advantages. Salamence's Intimidate means it switches into physical attacks far easier, which Latias corresponds to with it's insane SpD. Latias obviously has the better typing, since -Flying really does not do much for Salamence (except provide a Ground resistance), and as noted Pursuit slams both of them hard from Scizor or Tyranitar.

Personally I like using the Double Dragon combo, blasting apart all the Steel-types that switch into Salamence with well-timed Fire Blasts then finishing the job with ScarfLatias (yes, I use ScarfLatias!). Salamence's Hydro Pump provides a far better weapon than Latias' Surf, and Salamence also gets the nifty Fire Blast which is better in conjuction with Dragon moves than Thunderbolt. Unfortunately for Mence, he is weak to SR, so even though he is a better attacker he's dying rather quickly.

So generally, you choose between better attacking movepool vs. better-rounded attacker.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top