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Metagame [SPOILERS] Scarlet & Violet OU Discussion [BAN LIST POST 626]
- Thread starter ironwater
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Hello! New to Smogon forums.
I've had some time to experiment and just play around this early draft of gen9 OU.
Here are my thoughts so far:
Honorable mentions:
And that's about it so far. I hear you guys screaming "where is Iron Bundle?", "Ditto???" "Kekw, don't sleep on Grimmsnarl, kid" You're right. But they're just not too relevant right now. So that's it ^^
I've had some time to experiment and just play around this early draft of gen9 OU.
Here are my thoughts so far:
- Terastallization - It's interesting. Not as broken as dynamax, but for sure stronger than megas/z-moves by a good margin. Personally I think that with some clean-up (once some of the latter items on this list get quick-banned, that is) it could be a rather healthy gimmick that could enable unique pocket picks.
- Flutter Mane - OK, yes, that thing. It needs to go. Fast. The only thing that reliably checks it is Clodsire (you have to pray it's not running Psyshock). Aside from that, you might be able to find some solace in the current revenge killers of the tier - Scizor, Palafin, Chien-Pao - but that's really it, everything else mentioned about it thus far in this thread is true.
- Palafin - Remember how I wrote Terastallization is a gimmick that could be healthy? Emphasis on the could there. This demon, given the right setup and positioning, can sweep just about anything being thrown at it. I've only seen it being reliably checked by Rotom-W, Clodsire with Water Absorb and Dondozo, and even those can't do much against a taunt set. Priority STAB 60 BP is scary, and reliably ohkos any current sweeper without exception. Not sure how to approach this one, either Tera goes or it goes, they can't coexist.
- Chien-Pao - Take Weavile. Now make it stronger. How's that possible you ask? I raise you a Chien-Pao. This thing's speed tier, combined with its solid attack and ridiculous ability to reduce defense by 25% is absurd. It gets walled by some things, don't get me wrong - It has little to do against Iron Valliant, or any of the aforementioned bullets, but without them, it just dominates the rest of the tier.
- Houndstone - I've seen a lot of comments on the little guy, claiming that it's "the next Dracovish". It's not. It relies heavily on a sand setter. It gets walled by many, many things, and overall I don't think it should get banned, at least for now. Maybe once some of the more notable threats are gone I'll see it in a new light.
- Kingambit - Everyone and their mother talked about this mon before the game dropped. What can I say for it? It's pretty average...? I mean look, again, this comes with a disclaimer. It is going to be an excellent pick in a healthy metagame, one that will remain OU for some time imho. But right now it's just overwhelmed. Give it some time.
- Breloom - The king has returned! All hail the king! In a tier with Palafin and Chien-Pao, a true hero rises to the challenge with its fragile sash spore mach punch set. If it keeps the current threats under check, you better believe once the early metagame fog clears up it will dominate even better.
- THE DONS - I had my doubts, but gamefreak did it again! Those might be the greatest mons conceived since the blessing of Lando-T! In my opinion they'll be meta-shapers, and staple flex mons.
Honorable mentions:
- Roaring Moon - Scary potential once the aforementioned threats are gone. Flutter Mane single-handedly keeps this thing from breaking loose. I'd watch it very closely throughout the coming weeks.
- Sun - It just keeps getting better with every passing generation. Like everyone else, I think once the metagame is established it will become a staple of gen 9, replacing last gen's rain, at least until home transfers and maybe DLC.
- Cyclizar - I think this is probably the most misunderstood mon in this gen, and that it's only time until people learn how to reliably use it to their advantage. The current sets are the basic shed tail, knock off, rapid spin, filler. Due to the fairy influx in the form of Flutter Mane, Iron Valliant, and even Tinkaton, it might take some time until it gets to truly shine, but if you take away anything from this post - trust that it's going to be one of the defining utility mons of the generation.
And that's about it so far. I hear you guys screaming "where is Iron Bundle?", "Ditto???" "Kekw, don't sleep on Grimmsnarl, kid" You're right. But they're just not too relevant right now. So that's it ^^
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I'm surprised to hear you rate Scizor that highly defensively since it lost roost this generation.
ok, been playing a bit with this team, and i gonna talk about my first impression based on the lens that this team gave me:
https://pokepast.es/df8d4ba18a333c87
Terastallization - I was terrified of this, but playing I discovered that only one mon can use it, and honestly, it is fine. Is good but nothing really overwhealming like it looked, and it can do some pretty fun shenaningans (I picked the Mane normal tera from here and it destroys other opposing manes), but yeah I feel like great pokemons will use the amplifying stab version instead of the third stab, using for defensive purpouses isnt bad at all (I feel like its good to let it open for management of the flow of the game instead of just saving it for one specific mon to use), and my bet is that it isnt gonna be banned. Maybe Tera Blast if the coverage problem becomes too crazy.
Flutter Mane - Most broken pokemon I ever touched (I haven't played for a long time yet). Under The Sun this thing can run like hell AND hold Life Orb with extreme good coverage (M fire instead of t-bolt because sun and psyshock SPECIFICALLY for Clodsire), and only priority revenge killers can try to stop her. To me has to be the first (and maybe the only real candidate so far) to go.
Clodsire and Orthworm - The defensive goats to me so far. Orthworm is being soooo slept on its crazy to me, this pokemon make almost every offensive attacker cry (Chien Pao looked unstopable before I realize that it doesn't do enough damage against him and gets killed every time) and Clodsire looks like the only wall for non psychock Flutter Mane. Both of them have spikes because, contrary to popular belief, spinners are everywhere in the ladder, mainly because of the donphans, who are great pokemons too, so I feel like they can both try to squeeze some layers before its taken down. I'm interested to see how a stall team will look in this generation.
The Phans - To me, Tusk seen better than Treads, but both look amazing and super helpful, holding so many good support moves. Spin in tusk isn't only to take shit from the ground, but also a +1 speed under the sun makes him so fucking scary good lord.
Chien Pao and Roaring Moon - the two best mons after Mane and candidates for ban, but honestly, I do feel like it has enough counter play in the game if we really look to take down this mons. It may not be enough, but I think this two need a little bit more time in the meta to see how things shape out.
Iron Valiant - I dont think I saw any impactful Valiant on the ladder so far, so I dont have any opinions on him yet.
Dolphin boy - I dont think it will fall bellow OU, but yeah it doesnt look that strong for now, pokemons with water absorb can easily deal with him, and the free turn that he gives to transform is always appreciated.
It has been a lot of fun so far, hope we dont get to hasty about the bans and let the meta settle down a bit to look what will survive the hype and what wont.
https://pokepast.es/df8d4ba18a333c87
Terastallization - I was terrified of this, but playing I discovered that only one mon can use it, and honestly, it is fine. Is good but nothing really overwhealming like it looked, and it can do some pretty fun shenaningans (I picked the Mane normal tera from here and it destroys other opposing manes), but yeah I feel like great pokemons will use the amplifying stab version instead of the third stab, using for defensive purpouses isnt bad at all (I feel like its good to let it open for management of the flow of the game instead of just saving it for one specific mon to use), and my bet is that it isnt gonna be banned. Maybe Tera Blast if the coverage problem becomes too crazy.
Flutter Mane - Most broken pokemon I ever touched (I haven't played for a long time yet). Under The Sun this thing can run like hell AND hold Life Orb with extreme good coverage (M fire instead of t-bolt because sun and psyshock SPECIFICALLY for Clodsire), and only priority revenge killers can try to stop her. To me has to be the first (and maybe the only real candidate so far) to go.
Clodsire and Orthworm - The defensive goats to me so far. Orthworm is being soooo slept on its crazy to me, this pokemon make almost every offensive attacker cry (Chien Pao looked unstopable before I realize that it doesn't do enough damage against him and gets killed every time) and Clodsire looks like the only wall for non psychock Flutter Mane. Both of them have spikes because, contrary to popular belief, spinners are everywhere in the ladder, mainly because of the donphans, who are great pokemons too, so I feel like they can both try to squeeze some layers before its taken down. I'm interested to see how a stall team will look in this generation.
The Phans - To me, Tusk seen better than Treads, but both look amazing and super helpful, holding so many good support moves. Spin in tusk isn't only to take shit from the ground, but also a +1 speed under the sun makes him so fucking scary good lord.
Chien Pao and Roaring Moon - the two best mons after Mane and candidates for ban, but honestly, I do feel like it has enough counter play in the game if we really look to take down this mons. It may not be enough, but I think this two need a little bit more time in the meta to see how things shape out.
Iron Valiant - I dont think I saw any impactful Valiant on the ladder so far, so I dont have any opinions on him yet.
Dolphin boy - I dont think it will fall bellow OU, but yeah it doesnt look that strong for now, pokemons with water absorb can easily deal with him, and the free turn that he gives to transform is always appreciated.
It has been a lot of fun so far, hope we dont get to hasty about the bans and let the meta settle down a bit to look what will survive the hype and what wont.
I think Houndstone has good potential with Sandstorm in its moveset along with Last Respects and 2 other attacking moves. With it's 72/100/97 defense spread, I plan to use this mon to set up Sandstorm in the first turn and then just go all-out with its attacking moves.
Also, Ppl have been saying that Gholdengo is pretty good in OU, but is it even worth using w/o choice scarf?
Also, Ppl have been saying that Gholdengo is pretty good in OU, but is it even worth using w/o choice scarf?
I don't quite understand what you mean here, gholdengo is great without scarf, you can run bulk investment to live various hits (including flutter mane shadow ball) you come in on a lot of things like breloom and click make-it-rain which just nukes everything, even gets nasty plot and recover, I don't even think scarf is the best set, let alone the only set worth using.
Edit: I should probably clarify that you can't come in on flutter shadow ball, you just live a hit and can revenge it
Edit 2: does anybody know when the first usage statistics/tier shifts are gonna be out?
I put it that high defensively mainly because of how much it threatens and checks offensively. Basically every single of the top tier pokemon rn besides Palafin/Corviknight/Toxapex are Ohko'd by band bullet punch and even all those are nearly 2hko'd by Band Super Bullet Punch. And it can take at least one hit from all of those mons on the switch in.
I've been experimenting Gholdengo on showdown and from my experience, if it doesn't outspeed the opponent, then it just 1HKOs it. Recover is also questionable considering its frail defenses. But I don't wanna run both Nasty Plot and Recover at the same time, that's just weird asf.
I've been looking as well, but so far there doesn't seem to be any data for official tier lists. The viability rankings won't come until another month or two.
Booster Energy and Shed Tail are actually really fucking busted. Made a team around it and jesus is it busted as hell.
https://pokepast.es/0d91321755548602
Cyclizar uses Shed Tail and passes the sub based on what Pokemon is out. If say Tyranitar is out, you’re pass it to Iron Valiant. Often your opponent is unable to break the Sub with the Pokemon recieving it and if they switch out you get a free turn and guaranteed protection against everything besides Infiltrator Dragapult (which besides Chien and Great Tusk, you will outspeed).
Flutter Mane, Roaring Moon, and Iron Valiant all play similarly. Once a Sub is passed you take your oppritunity to set up, and since Speed is the highest on all 3, you get the 1.5x boost to Speed with Booster Energy. This is basically a Choice Scarf but without the choice locking With how fast all 3 are, you basically outspeed everything barring things like Hawlucha or Barraskewda with their respective abilities. Even then, once Roaring Moon Dragon Dance, you reach 832 Speed, making it the single fastest thing on the field with 139 Atk. Additionally, Roaring Moon has Acrobatics, which you may have guessed is why I use Flying Tera on it too.
Then you also have Chien-Pao, basically Weavile if Weavile had Tough Claws. (for demonstration, Mew’s Def is 328 and after -25% it will be 246)
Tough Claws
252 Atk Tough Claws Weavile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 188-224 (46.5 - 55.4%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO
Mew after -25% Def or 246 Def
252 Atk Weavile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Mew: 194-230 (48 - 56.9%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO
If Tough Claws Weavile wasn’t enough, now imagine having a reliable Terrain removing Ice STAB, Nature’s Madness, got to have a Sub passed to it, was way bulkier, and could suddenly change types without losing its STABs. I don’t think that anyone is under the impression that Chien-Pao will remain in OU for every long.
And then there is Great Tusk, which mostly is filler, but with Rapid Spin boost and Booster Energy absolutely shreads balance teams. If you don’t outspeed it (a lot harder than it sounds) or have Corviknight, you basically lose. It is a top wallbreaker when Protosynthesis is active.
Booster Energy, for the Pokemon with exclusive access to it, is like Gems if Gems lasted until you switched out, affected your stats instead of 1 move, and also activated when switching in.
And Shed Tail just bolsters such sweeping potential with free protection given by something with fucking Regenerator. So you can very easily do this multiple times if you want to as well.
Ban Shed Tail
Ban Booster Energy
Ban Flutter Mane
Ban Chein-Pao
https://pokepast.es/0d91321755548602
Cyclizar uses Shed Tail and passes the sub based on what Pokemon is out. If say Tyranitar is out, you’re pass it to Iron Valiant. Often your opponent is unable to break the Sub with the Pokemon recieving it and if they switch out you get a free turn and guaranteed protection against everything besides Infiltrator Dragapult (which besides Chien and Great Tusk, you will outspeed).
Flutter Mane, Roaring Moon, and Iron Valiant all play similarly. Once a Sub is passed you take your oppritunity to set up, and since Speed is the highest on all 3, you get the 1.5x boost to Speed with Booster Energy. This is basically a Choice Scarf but without the choice locking With how fast all 3 are, you basically outspeed everything barring things like Hawlucha or Barraskewda with their respective abilities. Even then, once Roaring Moon Dragon Dance, you reach 832 Speed, making it the single fastest thing on the field with 139 Atk. Additionally, Roaring Moon has Acrobatics, which you may have guessed is why I use Flying Tera on it too.
Then you also have Chien-Pao, basically Weavile if Weavile had Tough Claws. (for demonstration, Mew’s Def is 328 and after -25% it will be 246)
Tough Claws
252 Atk Tough Claws Weavile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 188-224 (46.5 - 55.4%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO
Mew after -25% Def or 246 Def
252 Atk Weavile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Mew: 194-230 (48 - 56.9%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO
If Tough Claws Weavile wasn’t enough, now imagine having a reliable Terrain removing Ice STAB, Nature’s Madness, got to have a Sub passed to it, was way bulkier, and could suddenly change types without losing its STABs. I don’t think that anyone is under the impression that Chien-Pao will remain in OU for every long.
And then there is Great Tusk, which mostly is filler, but with Rapid Spin boost and Booster Energy absolutely shreads balance teams. If you don’t outspeed it (a lot harder than it sounds) or have Corviknight, you basically lose. It is a top wallbreaker when Protosynthesis is active.
Booster Energy, for the Pokemon with exclusive access to it, is like Gems if Gems lasted until you switched out, affected your stats instead of 1 move, and also activated when switching in.
And Shed Tail just bolsters such sweeping potential with free protection given by something with fucking Regenerator. So you can very easily do this multiple times if you want to as well.
Ban Shed Tail
Ban Booster Energy
Ban Flutter Mane
Ban Chein-Pao
"Hi, my name is Shed Tail abuser" - Cyclizar
where?
Do you have a pokepastes link of this team? I've been looking for one that uses Lokix since I love that little bug.
So I made a lot an OU team: feat. Palafin Webs
The team core is simple: palafin, a webs setter, an unaware wall, a special attacker, a ghost type, hazard control and something to abuse webs as well.
Palafin @ Choice Band
Ability: Zero to Hero
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flip Turn
- Wave Crash
- Close Combat
- Zen Headbutt
The name of the game. I ranted on it. You know why its good. Choice Band attacks even without Jet Punch are stupifying levels of power
Spidops @ Focus Sash
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Memento
- Sticky Web
- Lunge
- Circle Throw
The new webs setter. Its really great as a suicide lead with Focus Sash. It can circle throw out common leads or setup sweeper for an early pinch, or even use memento after it sets up rocks. Lunge isn't used much but maybe can be useful
Great Tusk @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin
Donphan past is fuckin great. Its quadruple stealth rock resistant and u like its future counterpart not weak to itself. While this set can't really touch Corviknight and such, its still an amazing hazards control Mon
Flutter Mane @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 40 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psyshock
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Shadow Ball
My god is this thing good. Its the best special attacker so far, and with max up has some pretty good special bulk for what it does. Tera Dark can help vs opposing Flutter Mane bare Moonblast
Clodsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Recover
- Toxic
- Protect
Clodsire. Its uh, pretty good. Its not restricted to stall and is possibly the best unaware wall (skiereledge or whatever is competition). Tera steel makes it an amazing wall whilst avoiding Psyshock or Psychic type heavy damage. 8 ppl recover sucks, but it doesn't stop toxic protect antics
Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Focus Punch
- Protect
- Tera Blast
Lastly my webs abuser. Spore + focus punch and toxic orb is really obnoxious. Its dumb, and protect is kinda useless, but if you outspeed something, its gonna get hit hard. Ghost type Tera blast provides perfect coverage with focus punch - and it remains strong even without a STAB boost
But yea that's my team. Lemme know what you think of it
And with that being said, goodbye
The team core is simple: palafin, a webs setter, an unaware wall, a special attacker, a ghost type, hazard control and something to abuse webs as well.
Palafin @ Choice Band
Ability: Zero to Hero
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flip Turn
- Wave Crash
- Close Combat
- Zen Headbutt
The name of the game. I ranted on it. You know why its good. Choice Band attacks even without Jet Punch are stupifying levels of power
Spidops @ Focus Sash
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Memento
- Sticky Web
- Lunge
- Circle Throw
The new webs setter. Its really great as a suicide lead with Focus Sash. It can circle throw out common leads or setup sweeper for an early pinch, or even use memento after it sets up rocks. Lunge isn't used much but maybe can be useful
Great Tusk @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin
Donphan past is fuckin great. Its quadruple stealth rock resistant and u like its future counterpart not weak to itself. While this set can't really touch Corviknight and such, its still an amazing hazards control Mon
Flutter Mane @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 40 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psyshock
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Shadow Ball
My god is this thing good. Its the best special attacker so far, and with max up has some pretty good special bulk for what it does. Tera Dark can help vs opposing Flutter Mane bare Moonblast
Clodsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Recover
- Toxic
- Protect
Clodsire. Its uh, pretty good. Its not restricted to stall and is possibly the best unaware wall (skiereledge or whatever is competition). Tera steel makes it an amazing wall whilst avoiding Psyshock or Psychic type heavy damage. 8 ppl recover sucks, but it doesn't stop toxic protect antics
Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Focus Punch
- Protect
- Tera Blast
Lastly my webs abuser. Spore + focus punch and toxic orb is really obnoxious. Its dumb, and protect is kinda useless, but if you outspeed something, its gonna get hit hard. Ghost type Tera blast provides perfect coverage with focus punch - and it remains strong even without a STAB boost
But yea that's my team. Lemme know what you think of it
And with that being said, goodbye
Gotta try it out sometime
Having a lotta fun with this team. You kinda just click buttons and barely predict. Weak to sucker punch and priority in general. Final gambit walled by ghost types. Enjoy last respects before it's banned/nerfed
https://pokepast.es/62bda6f1f8e8d78e
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1714718791-tgr20hepu4hm7w4j8r18kc8sdzpk5anpw
https://pokepast.es/62bda6f1f8e8d78e
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1714718791-tgr20hepu4hm7w4j8r18kc8sdzpk5anpw
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Lokix is goated, stab first impression and sucker punch with tinted lens is too good
Hazard stack is something I think will pick up quite a bit as the meta develops. So many good Pokémon got spikes and t spikes added to their movesets, and now we have Gholdengo. Correct me if I’m wrong, but as far as I know Good as gold blocks defog, which is crazy. He’s legit the ultimate spin blocker
You mean Chainsaw Man?
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