Metagame [SPOILERS] Scarlet & Violet OU Discussion [BAN LIST POST 626]

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Local Dog said:
Honestly man it would be appreciated if you could be a little less ass to people in this thread. I agree with the core messages of your posts but I don't agree with this tone

Can you guys with banning stuff until I get home from work? I would like to play some Palafin. Thank you
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Well people should actually use this thread to actually discuss things instead of posting one-off messages that do not contribute to the bigger meta game discussions like it's their personal chat room. Things like "this Pokémon is op pls ban" or "please don't ban x until I get home from work" do not belong on this post since that won't get us anywhere, that is not how bans work, unless it is insanely meta warping.
Dravos Argentium said:
Somehow it did not occur to me to look for gen 9 discussion when the leaks dropped instead of waiting for the games to be officially released (at least in some time zones) so I apologize if these have been asked already:
- Why aren't the Hisuian forms available in gen 9 formats?
- Is Ursaluna as insanely busted as it looks to me?
- Is there any chance a sunny day Iron Moth/Slither Wing team will be decent? Volcarona's my favorite so the idea of using two forms with no overlapping types is extremely appealing.
- Am I crazy or did sun and electric teams just get some horrifyingly powerful options?
- As someone who's always been struggling to break into competitive properly, how on earth do I figure out what Tera types to use?

Thank you for the help.
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Hisuian forms are not available until Pokémon home is available on cartridge which is not for a few months
 
Hisuian forms are not available until Pokémon home is available on cartridge which is not for a few months
[/QUOTE]

Oh geez, seriously? I thought Home was already up and running for it, that's annoying. I had plans to use it soon. I guess that answers that, though the restriction feels a bit odd for National Dex, given it's already ignoring transfer capabilities.

(edit: I'm sorry I have no idea how this forum works or how to do quotes properly)
 
Dravos Argentium said:
Oh geez, seriously? I thought Home was already up and running for it, that's annoying. I had plans to use it soon. I guess that answers that, though the restriction feels a bit odd for National Dex, given it's already ignoring transfer capabilities.
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No new Pokémon games on the switch systems have ever launched from the get go with the home system implemented.

Which makes sense if you think about it since Gamefreak really want people to focus on the "new toys" rather than re-releasing the old broken toys. Plus it's more meta variety in the long run which helps with the longevity for when people get re excited when old Pokémon return
 
if only that olive Pokémon had a sunny day equivalent to chilly reception, all hell would break loose on OU.

it could be summon spring or something like that, where the sun comes out lol.

I don’t think the fairy/ghost is the most broken thing in OU right now, tho it’ll definitely be one of the first bans…at least it has nothing for defenses and so can be revenged with priority. If it doesn’t boost speed, then you have scarf sets to revenge too. The fast ice dog that drops defenses of everything in play is possibly more broken… due to forcing big damage on just about everything slower. And a lot of things are slower.

looks like the Superman dolphin gets walled by bulky waters, so it seems it’s gonna struggle to remain relevant until the stronger Pokémon above it move on to Ubers, then it might have a chance to shine with Tera sets or rain support.
 
So put about 5 hours into gen 9 at this point and here are my opinions.

Flutter-Mane needs to go. Ghost Fairy is a ridiculous STAB combo especially with that speed tier and ability. Every team is running this thing and half the games end up coming down to Flutter Mane vs Flutter Mane speed ties.

Chi-Pao also needs to go asap. Whoever thought giving a 135 Speed 130 attack Ice/Dark type a 25% reduction to all foes defense and duel priority moves was stupid. This thing absolutely wrecks everything not named Flutter mane and even then Ice-Shard/Sucker beat a slightly weakened flutter-mane anyways. Easily number 2 mon in the tier.

Ghost-Hound (too lazy to look up name) /Last Respects needs to go asap. Hopefully the move as this mon + Basculegioj are extremely interesting. However, if the move doesn't go this thing has to as it's absolutely bonkers stupid and in Sand revenge kills/kills everything in the entire game after 3 pokemon are lost. It literally only loses to Pao's Sucker Punch/Flutter with energy booster/scarf. If last respects gets banned however I could see it having a pretty great OU/UU niche.

I was part of the crew that was for Ters at the start and I really wanna see it kept in the tier for the niche alone. However, it absolutely is busted as hell especially when combined with Priority moves.

Scizor/Dragonite/Palafin break this tier in half with Stab/Super STAB Priority moves and Scizor and Palafin pair very well together with Flip Turn/U-turn and then super STAB cleaning with Prio at the end of the game. Also Terablast breaks the game in half as well with Mag.

Speaking of Scizor I'd put it top 10 mons right now just due to where the meta is. Mainly because support STAB bullet punch is a great late game cleaner. And it's one of the only mons in the tier that revenges Pao (no Tera Sucker Punch). Mane, Moon and ghost dog decently easily alongside its great resists.

Moon is nor as broken as I thought it would be. It's ridiculously strong and I do think it should be banned eventually but definitely after the aforementioned top 3 get banned.

The Donphans are both amazing mons. Great spinners/Rockers/attackers could easily see them being top tier OU mons when the broken shit is banned.

Sun is terrifying with Pepper mon but again overshadowed by the scary shit in OU right now.

Palafin totally balanced especially when Tera gets banned.

Skeledirge has a pretty decent niche in OU RN as a defensive Terastylyzer/Unaware mon. But if no Tera loses to Mane/Moon/Pao which is a big nono.

Closure is actually extremely great as a defensive mon in the early meta with unaware and Water absorb sets both filling niches in the meta snd being a good glue.

Fortress is the best suicide lead in the game right now which is great since ahazards are so strong ATM.

Yeah my initial thoughts ATM. Gotta sleep but will play more tommorow and update with more. Fun meta though as I love day 1 metas.
 
Played some games and while some of the Paradox mons are clearly overpowered with Booster Energy, the best part about Sun being viable is that I can run said mons without Booster Energy and get the free boost anyway.

Because they have such good stats already, I'm running resist berries on Roaring Moon, Flutter Mane and Great Tusk just because, without ever worrying about losing the speed tie.

On some teams where I run Torkoal, I don't even care if I have good abusers. I'm just using him for hazard control and also as a anti-weather to reset the weather away from Snow/Rain to not get cheesed.
 
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Tera seems wild but the very least we can do is agree to nerf it rather than ban it if everyone thinks it's too much. The game just began so it needs breathing room but, unlike Dynamax, this is something at least tameble because it's not every move on every Mon plus stat boosts/debuffs on your Mons/their Mons or weather or terrain. If there is to be a suspect test I believe the first step should be to designate it to one Pokemon per team and that the next step is the type should have to be announced. Call it a complex ban but no one has ever cared about that when it was convenient (Baton Pass, gen 5 weather). DMax was unsalvageable in singles and doubles but I feel that Tera can be competently balanced for Smogon metas if taken in this direction. I despise the shills that said "but it's the gen's identity so it has to stay" from DMax, so if it has to go even with nerfs then it has to go. The gameplay is the first and most important part, not the shiny new button they put in each new game

If not Tera itself then Terablast. That would be tamer as well and give people time to relax about it. I see potential in this mechanic that can be balanced

Scald being deleted is a blessing for this series and will only bring good fortune to the metas. It was a cancer upon everything it touched and it defiled what a bulky Water type is. No more uncounterable risk free easy to use cheater button 4 u. I hope that with that blight removed people will finally see how horrible of a move it is to allow and that it gets banned from every past gen. This is the best buff Pokemon got this gen, they buffed the integrity of the game with it. Fuck Scald and anyone who supports it (needs the crutch), it should be gone forever and if by some unholy messenger it is brought back then kill like it should've been killed back in BW
 
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Have been playing around with a bulkier team for a little while (https://pokepast.es/95e522055b4f90b7), and I have already found the goat mon.

Corviknight @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Fighting / Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Bulk Up
- Brave Bird / Substitute / Iron Head
- Body Press

As soon as broken ass flutter mane leaves this tier, corv is reaching #1 in usage. This thing walls everything. Palafin? Light breeze. Chien-pao? Shot. Baxcalibur? Cooked. Of course as soon as people catch on to this, people will change their tera type to turn the matchup upside down (I've already gotten blasted by tera-electric chien-pao). There are definitely strong arguments for pivot defog being better that this, but it just fulfills a different role in a team. I also like this set more that pivot because it's less passive, which I think is important in this meta.

On another note, oooooooohhhh please don't use chilly reception slowking on non-snow teams ooooooohhhhh it's definintely not extremely strong with no downsides other than making ice matchups a bit harder oooooooohhhhhh

Edit: btw Garganacl walls (non-specs non-SpA boost) flutter mane. You didn't hear this from me.
 
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Played for a bit this evening and have some very early thoughts.

Pretty much with the sentiment in the room that Flutter Mane needs to go. The typing would be one thing but backed by its speed tier is just unreasonable to deal with. While it can reliably be revenged by Chien-Pao sucker punch and Scizor's bullet punch, there just isn't much. I did notice a healthy Ting-Lu actually can soft check it (EQ can ko if at 90ish%) though.

Chien-Pao also needs the boot. The typing and power is far too much and it's incredibly easy for it to clean an even somewhat weakened team. Even packing tools like Ruination to easily chip fatter targets into KO range quickly. It and Flutter Mane are the culprits pushing the speed tier way too high.

Roaring Moon isn't as immediately broken but it is definitely something to keep an eye on, especially as OU currently has a very noticeable dearth of fat fairies to discourage outrage spam, and its very difficult to revenge kill a boosted RM (though Slither Swing can).

Chi-Yu hasn't really gotten any attention i've seen but i'd watch out for it. The speed tier makes it much more offensively manageable but its still quite brutal.

Not broken at all, but rather interesting mons I've liked so far. Skeledirge is quite solid as a defensive mon thanks to unaware and a strong toolkit. Torch song lets it be threatening without needing EV investment and wisp/hex is great. Both Iron Treads and Great Tusk are awesome spinners, especially the latter. Iron Hands is nice and fat, and i like swords dance on it. Slither Wing i find is a neat offensive check to some of the big threats, like Chien-Pao and Roaring Moon. Has some annoying 4MSS though.
 
Lokix is a fucking beast, have been playing all morning on showdown and it is by far the strongest Pokémon in the team all things considered.

Adamant with both First Impresion AND Sucker with Tinted Lens hits like a truck. I've been running LO and dismantling even stall with it. Not that it need its, but after teralizing in bug nothing tanks a first impression, it's that strong. It can pull out shenanigans between first impression and swords dancing and thanks to tinted lens it surprisingly works. After 1 SD, LO suckers destroys everything ive encountered so far, i've won against fucking corvs with no brave bird if i was at plus 2 before they started boosting.

Others mons are more dependant on prior support or dont seem to do that great in my experience, for example roaring moon and baxcalibur both get shut down by flutter mane which is everywhere, even if you switch directly into it as an agressive check or even if you force them to not boost beyond 1/1 which guarantees the rkill (ive been running timid scarf mane to always outspeed roaring moon after plus 1), but the damage output Lokix put with no boosts and no turns wasted is so crazy and solid, i can seriously see this shit working in a more developed OU.
 
Toxic Spikes QD Venomoth with Tinted Lens and LO kinda slaps. Good power and reliable at setting TS from what I've been able to tell
 
Yung Peestain said:
Edit: btw Garganacl walls (non-specs non-SpA boost) flutter mane. You didn't hear this from me.
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Your welcome :^)
But seriously I really like Garganacl from the looks of it. Very bulky with a cool ability.
Once Flutter Mane and Dragapult are gone, do you supposed Ghost Garganacl would work?
Edit: Now that I think about it, Terastallizing Garganacl into a Fairy, Poison, Flying, or Bug type actually gives you the resistance to the covetted Ghost/Fighting spam.
 
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Cuddly said:
Your welcome :^)
But seriously I really like Garganacl from the looks of it. Very bulky with a cool ability.
Once Flutter Mane and Dragapult are gone, do you supposed Ghost Garganacl would work?
Edit: Now that I think about it, Terastallizing Garganacl into a Fairy, Poison, Flying, or Bug type actually gives you the resistance to the covetted Ghost/Fighting spam.
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I personally think flying is a better tera type, because it changes all of its weaknesses while gaining a way better defensive typing. But that's if you're planning on terastallizing a defensive mon in the first place, which at least for now is not the greatest strat. If you want to preserve a 6-0 by shitting on clod or tusk, go for it

Edit: damn edit before I could reply lmao
 
GraylyHen94 said:
Scald being deleted is a blessing for this series and will only bring good fortune to the metas. It was a cancer upon everything it touched and it defiled what a bulky Water type is. No more uncounterable risk free easy to use cheater button 4 u. I hope that with that blight removed people will finally see how horrible of a move it is to allow and that it gets banned from every past gen. This is the best buff Pokemon got this gen, they buffed the integrity of the game with it. Fuck Scald and anyone who supports it (needs the crutch), it should be gone forever and if by some unholy messenger it is brought back then kill like it should've been killed back in BW
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A healthy reminder that we have a whole slew of new toys to play with, which seems more productive to focus on than obsessing over an outdated toy that makes you inexplicably angry.
 
Guuch said:
Yo Skeledirge can even make it to OU and actually the most competitive starter in this gen. Lots of ppl have underestimated this mon's true potential on the battlefield. It's ability Unaware completely ignores opponent's stat changes and lots of OU/UU mons depend on stat boosting moves in order for them to shine in the metagame. Torch Song also increases SpA by +1 every time you use it, not mention its 104/100/75 defenses in addition to Slack Off makes Skeledirge a phenomenal mon for both offensive and defense alike which is definitely not something you see everyday.
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No doubt it has potential, but I think it's gonna be really specific and by no means a standard. I think it's main draw in this meta is beating Slowking Snow teams or at least providing an excellent barrier between BD Cetitan and an easy 6-0. But in a meta with so many great Ghosts (Dragapult, Flutter Mane) and phenomenal Darks (Chein-Pao, Chi-Yu, Kingambit, Meowscarada, Ting-Lu), it won't be anything more than a specific Unaware Mon that stop Snow sweepers from bowling over teams (Dondozo does the same thing and has more bulk but lacks recovery). Even if it wants to stop sweepers, the aforementioned Darks and Ghosts, Veluza, and especially Quaquaval are gonna be some of the hottest setup sweepers in early OU, so it can't really even do that job very well. Could also see use as a spinblocker/metal bird check that can spread burn and abuse Hex but that's about it.
 
Sirya said:
Does anyone have a sun based team that wont care sharing? Or a hail one with cetitan the devourer of souls?
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Here is one I made
https://pokepast.es/7d269962462cdc29
You got 2 Paradoxmons both of which boost speed under the Sun.
You got Scovillain as a Chlorophyll user too.
Dragapult is there because it’s busted as hell.
You got literally Crack: the Pokemon with that Salt Cure move. Not only is a great counter to Flutter Mane, but also any Ghost or Fighting type giving itself respective STABs.
And of course you have Torkoal to set Sun.
 
Sirya said:
Does anyone have a sun based team that wont care sharing? Or a hail one with cetitan the devourer of souls?
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Not necessarily the best variant, but my favourite variant so far (Sun).
I honestly don't find Scovillain that good in Sun because he's not that threatening without a boost and can't outrun Fluttering Mane and 220 Atk Roaring Moon.
Rotom-W is my favourite Ground immunity this gen so far and Breloom is just a threat that is underprepared for current who doubles as a check to all the ridiculous things weak to his Mach Punch like Roaring Moon, Chien, and Chiyu.
Great Tusk is lowkey the real win-con here, taking names left and right after a Photo boost and a speed boost from spin.

Flutter is obviously great too and can easily replace Chiyu here, but Specs Chiyu in the Sun was just something that sounds too ridiculous to not try.
 
Sirya said:
Does anyone have a sun based team that wont care sharing? Or a hail one with cetitan the devourer of souls?
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since nobodies shared a hail/snow yet, here's mine, it's a hstack that aims to wear down the enemy team for a cetitan endgame, ghouldengo is the spinbocker that also blocks defog, forretress can either be a suicide lead or a defensive switchin to various physical threats (including chien-pao!), flutter mane can't really be switched into but you can rk it with either ditto or a fully healthy ghouldengo, keeping sacs is important for the team to allow ditto to have as many chances to revenge if needed, the snow core of cetitan/slowking is a good form of speed control, although don't feel like you need to always drum, since most of the time you do enough damage just by clicking buttons, you need to terra ice to garuntee a kill on flutter mane but besides that and ditto there are rarely times you need to terra, although I've left the types alone so you're free to change them if you feel like it'd be impactful.
 
Been playing for a bit, and as expected Tera is actually is pretty tame. Honestly feels kind of underwhelming tbh. Been using that Sun team I posted and mostly use Garganacl as my Terastallizer and it doesn't even have Poison moves (though we'll have to see once or even if Flutter Mane is banned).
I did find myself Terastallizing Dragapult with Ghost Tera occasionally, but it wasn't the OHKOing machine I thought it would be with Spec Adapt Shadow Ball. I also didn't get my ass whooped by opposing Terastallizers either.
You know, maybe it's because I'm not using a super OP dedicated Terastallizer who is unwallable after 1 boost or finding the team that does so. So far most of the issues I have been finding are some of the new Pokemon. Flutter Mane looks incredibly strong, but I don't find it Uber worthy. I'm even using a Sun team for it too and find that Dragapult is still more of a threat.

It is Day 1.5 so we'll have to see.
 
DavidDMS said:
Flutter Mane @ Life Orb
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Moonblast
- Pain Split
- Thunderbolt

I've been spamming this set on every single team I use. Normal Tera Type lets you stay in on other ghosts, including opposing Flutter Mane that may have gotten a speed boost, and take them out with Shadow Ball. Pain Split is such a great way to chip down the few switch ins it has and gain enough HP to fire off more attacks. This thing is ridiculous.

Iron Treads @ Leftovers
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off

This is what Excadrill wishes it could be. The speed tier is so convenient and it beats most ghosts that want to spin block. I have it set to Tera Water in case it has to survive some of the powerful Water, Fire, and Ice moves that you're gonna run into a lot right now. I don't think building a team around a single mon meant to Tera is a great idea. Having your options open is a great way to just steal all momentum from your opponent. Going Tera on a defensive Pokemon just so it can have a different type is definitely a waste, but going Tera on an offensive mon so it can beat shit that it usually loses too is phenomenal.
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https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1714339964

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1714316403
This right here is what I'm talking about. I know that my opponent plans on sweeping the rest of my team with his ghost type, so I save my tera for Flutter Mane. Also, shout out to Lokix. It's base attack isn't impressive, but strong STAB priority will never be bad, and Tinted Lens helps to bypass all of the tera stuff.
 
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