Metagame [SPOILERS] Scarlet & Violet OU Discussion [BAN LIST POST 626]

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Another unconventional mons that I think may have an OU niche depending on how the meta shakes out:

Bellibolt - 109/91/83 defenses are not bad at all, pure Electric is a decent defensive typing (yes, weakness to EQ sucks but it's only a 2x weak), Static is a great defensive ability, and it gets Slack Off. Plus, 103 Special Attack, access to Chilling Water, and Volt Switch mean that it's not terribly passive, can actually HIT Ground-types trying to switch in for free, and can slow pivot out itself. It also gets Screens, which is pretty solid given that this thing has longevity.
 
Another unconventional mons that I think may have an OU niche depending on how the meta shakes out:

Bellibolt - 109/91/83 defenses are not bad at all, pure Electric is a decent defensive typing (yes, weakness to EQ sucks but it's only a 2x weak), Static is a great defensive ability, and it gets Slack Off. Plus, 103 Special Attack, access to Chilling Water, and Volt Switch mean that it's not terribly passive, can actually HIT Ground-types trying to switch in for free, and can slow pivot out itself. It also gets Screens, which is pretty solid given that this thing has longevity.
Why not muddy water instead of chilling water?
 
Why not muddy water instead of chilling water?
Muddy water can miss and that mons role isn't going to be to dish out lots of damage anyway.

Unfortunately this mon doesnt get hazards or even toxic so i really dont see too much of a reason to use it. But if electromorphosis ends up doubling the damage of electric moves then i could see it being used for those fat volt switches
 
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Something I slapped together, so I might have underrated or overrated some threats. I am not particularly familiar with all of the nuances of these Pokémon's Movepool though, and no BLs after UU cuz that's hard but that barely matters here in this thread, so if one has any ideas on how likely these placements seem lemmie know.

Some specific talking points I am interested in

• With all that's said and done, what will most likely be OU's primiere bulky Water type?
• Do people think the Energy Booster item is ultimately banworthy?
• Last Respects on Basculegion. How far into competitive relevancy will that carry it, especially considering what is perhaps the fiercest Ghost type competition it probably has ever faced.
• Will Palafin be banworthy? Will it's stats and 120 BP STAB make up for no secondary typing, no reliable way to touch bulky Waters or it's effective lack of ability? How well will it perform in comparison to both new and old Water type wallbreakers we can expect both pre and post Home?
With all that's said and done, what will most likely be OU's premier bulky Water-type?
The first question is a bit tough to answer since there really only are three that fits the very loose definition of "bulky": Rotom-Wash, Toxapex, and Slowbro. Based on your initial list, it seems like Toxapex's resistances have an overall decreased importance due to how many OU threats can get SE hits on Pex. Since the metagame might lean more offensively than previous ones, I think Rotom and Slowbro might be prime options as they can maintain momentum while checking a number of key threats. They also pair up well with returning Pokemon, Landorus-T and Heatran, so it has that working for them.

Do people think the Booster Energy item is ultimately banworthy?
From what I understand of Booster Energy, it's a one-time consumable for the Paradox Pokemon. In essence, it feels like the whole Sound-move/Throat Spray mechanic, or even the pinch berries in metagames past. In my opinion, the item is only relevant to the Paradox Pokemon that have high speed and offensive stats, so Pokemon like P-Hariyama and Ungaboonguss are out of the question. The main issue with Booster Energy is that it pops as soon as the Pokemon comes in, so its timing becomes super-important. If you switch the Pokemon in at the wrong time and get forced out, you effectively have wasted a Booster Energy. It kind of echoes the nerf around Zacian & Zamazenta's abilities. If we go by Smogon's tiering/banning philosophy, Booster Energy is not bannable because all of its abusers don't immediately benefit from it. Rather, individual Pokemon that abuse it well would be banned.

Last Respects on Basculegion. How far into competitive relevancy will that carry it, especially considering what is perhaps the fiercest Ghost type competition it probably has ever faced.
I may be one of the few that think Basculegion might not be that big of an issue with Last Respects (in OU at least). On Rain, Basculegion directly competes with Barraskewda as the premier Swift Swim Pokemon. Barraskewda has good coverage, high attack, and a high enough speed where it can operate successfully outside of rain. Basculegion, on the other hand, has bad coverage, mediocre attack, and a slow enough speed where it needs Rain to operate effectively. Tack on Last Regards need for Fainted teammates for it to be effectively, and you'll quickly realize that making Basculegion + Last Regards cheese work is more effort than it's worth. Even in the sample Rain team, Seismitoad is only run as a second Swift Swimmer because of its Electric/Volt Switch immunity. Even then, it has good enough coverage options (Grass Knot, Focus Blast, Eqrth Power) to deal big damage via SE moves in spite of its mid attacking stats.

Will Palafin be banworthy? Will it's stats and 120 BP STAB make up for no secondary typing, no reliable way to touch bulky Waters or it's effective lack of ability? How well will it perform in comparison to both new and old Water type wallbreakers we can expect both pre and post Home?
That kind of depends. The interesting part about Palafin is that it needs to switch out first to trigger Zero to Hero, so at the start of the battle, Palafin is basically this mid-looking Pokemon:

Palafin - 100/70/72/53/62/100 (Total: 457) - Water/Water - Zero to Hero/Zero to Hero/Zero to Hero

The Speed + Flip Turn is actually okay to get it to proc its ability consistently, but the fact that you need to burn either a lead or a turn to activate makes it really easy to play around/take advantage of. While it has zero tools to beat Bulky waters, its access to Flip Turn means that it can still pivot out safely kind of like how CB Ursh has operated for most of Gen 8. Some calculations using a modified Jolly Barraskewda (160 Atk) and Liquidation (120 BP).

252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 118-139 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 91-108 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- 25.6% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 115-136 (29.2 - 34.6%) -- 8.2% chance to 3HKO

All things considered, these are pretty good numbers for Palafin. Assuming that Scald isn't yeeted from the game, I would argue that CB Palafin still has tools that it can use to beat over Bulky Waters.

252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 181-213 (46 - 54.1%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 183-216 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

Considering that its only other physical options are Ice Punch, Zen Headbutt, and Close Combat, having Facade as a coverage move would be fairly reasonable as it allows Palafin to beat over Bulky waters.
 

shadowpea

everyone is lonely sometimes
is a Tiering Contributor
That kind of depends. The interesting part about Palafin is that it needs to switch out first to trigger Zero to Hero, so at the start of the battle, Palafin is basically this mid-looking Pokemon:

Palafin - 100/70/72/53/62/100 (Total: 457) - Water/Water - Zero to Hero/Zero to Hero/Zero to Hero

The Speed + Flip Turn is actually okay to get it to proc its ability consistently, but the fact that you need to burn either a lead or a turn to activate makes it really easy to play around/take advantage of. While it has zero tools to beat Bulky waters, its access to Flip Turn means that it can still pivot out safely kind of like how CB Ursh has operated for most of Gen 8. Some calculations using a modified Jolly Barraskewda (160 Atk) and Liquidation (120 BP).

252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 118-139 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 91-108 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- 25.6% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 115-136 (29.2 - 34.6%) -- 8.2% chance to 3HKO

All things considered, these are pretty good numbers for Palafin. Assuming that Scald isn't yeeted from the game, I would argue that CB Palafin still has tools that it can use to beat over Bulky Waters.

252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 181-213 (46 - 54.1%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 183-216 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

Considering that its only other physical options are Ice Punch, Zen Headbutt, and Close Combat, having Facade as a coverage move would be fairly reasonable as it allows Palafin to beat over Bulky waters.
scald is in fact yeeted from the game.

however, zhb does 2hko pex easily, and neutral cc takes out washtom. so youre just left with slowbro as an reliable fat water answer. it have some 4mss tho: wave crash obviously, flipturn for pivoting, jet punch for priority, zhb for pex, cc for random water resists, ice punch for grasses and dragons (doubt you even need that but just in case here you go).
 
With all that's said and done, what will most likely be OU's premier bulky Water-type?
The first question is a bit tough to answer since there really only are three that fits the very loose definition of "bulky": Rotom-Wash, Toxapex, and Slowbro. Based on your initial list, it seems like Toxapex's resistances have an overall decreased importance due to how many OU threats can get SE hits on Pex. Since the metagame might lean more offensively than previous ones, I think Rotom and Slowbro might be prime options as they can maintain momentum while checking a number of key threats. They also pair up well with returning Pokemon, Landorus-T and Heatran, so it has that working for them.

Do people think the Booster Energy item is ultimately banworthy?
From what I understand of Booster Energy, it's a one-time consumable for the Paradox Pokemon. In essence, it feels like the whole Sound-move/Throat Spray mechanic, or even the pinch berries in metagames past. In my opinion, the item is only relevant to the Paradox Pokemon that have high speed and offensive stats, so Pokemon like P-Hariyama and Ungaboonguss are out of the question. The main issue with Booster Energy is that it pops as soon as the Pokemon comes in, so its timing becomes super-important. If you switch the Pokemon in at the wrong time and get forced out, you effectively have wasted a Booster Energy. It kind of echoes the nerf around Zacian & Zamazenta's abilities. If we go by Smogon's tiering/banning philosophy, Booster Energy is not bannable because all of its abusers don't immediately benefit from it. Rather, individual Pokemon that abuse it well would be banned.

Last Respects on Basculegion. How far into competitive relevancy will that carry it, especially considering what is perhaps the fiercest Ghost type competition it probably has ever faced.
I may be one of the few that think Basculegion might not be that big of an issue with Last Respects (in OU at least). On Rain, Basculegion directly competes with Barraskewda as the premier Swift Swim Pokemon. Barraskewda has good coverage, high attack, and a high enough speed where it can operate successfully outside of rain. Basculegion, on the other hand, has bad coverage, mediocre attack, and a slow enough speed where it needs Rain to operate effectively. Tack on Last Regards need for Fainted teammates for it to be effectively, and you'll quickly realize that making Basculegion + Last Regards cheese work is more effort than it's worth. Even in the sample Rain team, Seismitoad is only run as a second Swift Swimmer because of its Electric/Volt Switch immunity. Even then, it has good enough coverage options (Grass Knot, Focus Blast, Eqrth Power) to deal big damage via SE moves in spite of its mid attacking stats.

Will Palafin be banworthy? Will it's stats and 120 BP STAB make up for no secondary typing, no reliable way to touch bulky Waters or it's effective lack of ability? How well will it perform in comparison to both new and old Water type wallbreakers we can expect both pre and post Home?
That kind of depends. The interesting part about Palafin is that it needs to switch out first to trigger Zero to Hero, so at the start of the battle, Palafin is basically this mid-looking Pokemon:

Palafin - 100/70/72/53/62/100 (Total: 457) - Water/Water - Zero to Hero/Zero to Hero/Zero to Hero

The Speed + Flip Turn is actually okay to get it to proc its ability consistently, but the fact that you need to burn either a lead or a turn to activate makes it really easy to play around/take advantage of. While it has zero tools to beat Bulky waters, its access to Flip Turn means that it can still pivot out safely kind of like how CB Ursh has operated for most of Gen 8. Some calculations using a modified Jolly Barraskewda (160 Atk) and Liquidation (120 BP).

252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 118-139 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 91-108 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- 25.6% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 115-136 (29.2 - 34.6%) -- 8.2% chance to 3HKO

All things considered, these are pretty good numbers for Palafin. Assuming that Scald isn't yeeted from the game, I would argue that CB Palafin still has tools that it can use to beat over Bulky Waters.

252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 181-213 (46 - 54.1%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 183-216 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

Considering that its only other physical options are Ice Punch, Zen Headbutt, and Close Combat, having Facade as a coverage move would be fairly reasonable as it allows Palafin to beat over Bulky waters.
Also worth noting that it can go mixed with grass knot, but the fact that it's bulky water counters are quite relatively light means that this is probably not the best way to go.

Also worth mentioning is that it seems like palafin is going to be a great abuser of terrastralize if it stays, as it is able to hit all of its counters effectively with either electric or grass Terra blast.

Edit: grass knot calcs against slowbro:

4 SpA Life Orb Palafin Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 190-226 (48.3 - 57.5%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
 
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makes sense, and youre right. fish's power will probably only be truly felt when some of the stupid fastmons are gone.

rapid-fire thoughts that are more coherent this time

great tusk looks like a hella strong breaker especially with proto giving it a free +1 atk. random ice coverage is nice, rapid spin is nice, bulk up sets can exist and take advantage of that chunky physical bulk or it can just run aoa with spin. good mon.

brute bonnet...grass-dark is really not a great defensive type, but it does have some firepower behind it. spore as well. slow af tho.

sandy shocks packs high power and decent speed. funny how back in the day we would've considered 101 "fast". probably still is for a breaker of its caliber, but lets clear shit like chien-pao and bundle away first, eh? then we'll see. anyway, ground/electric with no lando or gliscor in sight is pretty sweet for shocks. naturally being a magnemite it gets 0 coverage, but i think it can just get away with ep/vs/tbolt with hazards/twave/tera on the last slot.

i have no idea abt how to judge scream tail aside from "fatmon with no recovery"

ghost is a broken typing if it wasnt for all the 100 darks running around. fairy is a broken typing. fairy kills darks for ghosts. and those stats...ban flutter mane.

meowscarada looks ou level. its fast, its strong, choiced sets dont care about the protean nerf and it can probably comfortably run band. timbs also dont look bad.

skeledirge is bad. niche unaware slot at the absolute best. 100% fiery dance don't save it.

quaquaval is a ho mon that tries to boost atk and spe with two different moves except the speed-boosting move isnt agility or some clone which is pretty nice actually. its a strong snowballer, but it probably has to be on ho to kick off that snowball properly and win.

lokix...uhh finally a somewhat-functional lens mon? "fringe" is one way to put it lol

houndstone looks like another nice fit on ho. hos mons burn fast, burn bright, and when they broke through half the opposing team and died houndstone can just clean up with massively boosted last respects. ngl cyclizar and houndstone are really nice buffs to ho. similarly, basculegion might see a niche solely because last respects is broken.

palafin broken stats blah blah blah

scovillian sun abuser eh

ghouldego in a vacuum is the ultimate mon for keeping hazards up. defog immunity, spin immunity, mortal spin immunity, plus immune to normal tools to deny hazard removers like toxic and taunt. strong stats too, looks pretty good.

toadscruel on the other hand gets an ability pretty much to counter gouldego's lol. idk how good it will be or how valuable the typing is, probably in a lower tier

ting-lu is at a completely new level of fat, sure, but its also rather passive and has no reliable recovery. the sheer bulk might make it worth banning imo, and if yall are right, probably. but idk, i feel a bunch of other threats are a lot more banworthy

kingambit has been talked about, strong, bulky and shit

paldean tauros looks nice especially after valiant leaves. specifically the fire form. water can see use too if rapidshifu gets banned this gen with its dark brother.

kleavor is strong and has an attacking rock-setting move. and its strong and packs stab uturn.

mastiff has stakeout and functional stats to abuse it. nice. "functional" does not translate to "good" tho.

brute bonnet packs the same sorta-unfortunate typing as wo-chien. packs spore tho and decent firepower so theres something there.

pawmot's revival is completely nuts because revival as a concept is completely nuts. imagine having to deal with one of the brokens like roaring moon and flutter mane, twice. and its not even comparable to healing wish - pawmot doesnt faint, and its not like the mon its healin have to be alive.

tinkaton 160 bp hammer funny heehoo

(ok after getting over that first impression iron moth actually looks kinda neat)

have a tiermaker of the new mons https://tiermaker.com/create/gen-9-roi-476780
View attachment 465000
(idk which basculegion form is which lol, put the one with less atk in "bad" probably)
(also cyclizar wont get banned if shed tail does)
(fire tauros in maybe, water there too with the "maybe" being "if urshifu gets banned", normal can go down, idk which is which again)
(glimmora in maybe ou grafarai in bad i somehow thought grafarai got mortal spin lmao)

(e: rethought it, kingambit is probably borderline, the electric speedy bird is maybe ou because its an electric speedy bird. skeledirge is probably nice, fire-ghost is too lame of a typing for a defensive mon)

even more thoughts later...or maybe not. ive been posting an awful lot lately. (well at least an awful lot for me)
Skeledirge is not to be slept on. Fire/Ghost is a great attacking type along with Earth Power, it also gets Solar Beam which would work great with a Mental Herb to make the move into a one turn attack. Its 104/100/76 defense spread alongside Slack Off makes this mon an excellent wall alongside its 110 SpA as its best stat. Its signature move is 80 BP and increases SpA by 1 every time just like Quaquaval Aqua Step but with Speed. Plus, Unaware tells us that opponent's stat boosts mean nothing to this mon while Skeledirge can just keep on stacking up with its SpA and Slack Off for longevity.

Scovillian with Sunny Day and Chlorophyll is nice, but its frail defense distribution (65/65/65) is very questionable. Plus setting up with this mon is a very risky choice with its base speed stat of 75 (without Sunny Day).

Pokémon Scarlet and Violet Planning
I made this handy dandy sheet with every gen 9 and paradox form base stats with its choice of good moves. But I purposely excluded some mons because they are either complete trash or only good for defensive strategies which I never will care about.
1668452282337.png
 
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Ema Skye

Work!
• With all that's said and done, what will most likely be OU's primiere bulky Water type?
Slowking immediately sticks out to me. Unlike Slowbro, it didn't lose its pivoting (and functionally its still a slow pivot even if its neutral priority). Slowbro still might be okay on teams that would prefer Glowking. Toxapex might be able to adapt but it really struggles with putting pressure out. Maybe it starts Ice Beam fishing?

• Do people think the Energy Booster item is ultimately banworthy?
I feel like it would have to be banworthy on every paradox and given that Brute Bonnet and Scream Tail are quite mediocre that seems like a tall order. But at the same time, King's Rock wasn't broken on every mon and it might help save some of the more borderline paradoxes (Iron Valiant, Iron Bundle, Iron Hands)[/quote]

• Last Respects on Basculegion. How far into competitive relevancy will that carry it, especially considering what is perhaps the fiercest Ghost type competition it probably has ever faced.
Thinking probably it gets somewhere with the move. After 1KO, it's nearly as strong as Poltergeist and Adaptability on it is kinda disgusting. I don't know yet if it's all hype or if it's power will actually be realized, but it'll probably be part of the meta for a while come spring.

• Will Palafin be banworthy? Will it's stats and 120 BP STAB make up for no secondary typing, no reliable way to touch bulky Waters or it's effective lack of ability? How well will it perform in comparison to both new and old Water type wallbreakers we can expect both pre and post Home?
Mon is basically a stronger, fatter and slower Barraskewda. It can't touch Waters, especially any that also happen to resist CC. It'll be good but I think it's definitely overhyped right now. Taunt+BU sounds interesting but I think CB will be preferable for the ease of getting the form change. I do think it forms a nice core with Iron Bundle as Bundle is an incredible anti-Water mon due to Freeze-Dry and its own water resist.
 
Been lurking the thread for a bit and decided to share my own opinions on some of the mons. Most of it is going to be me echoing what's been said before so don't expect any hot takes.

Flutter Mane - LMAO what is this mon doing bro. 135/135 offenses is insane and it has one of the best possible offensive typings. With stuff like CM/Hex/Etc at its disposal it's most definitely gonna be another spectrier situation... I don't think this mon is gonna last.

Iron Valiant - All the waiting for a Fairy/Fighting type just for it to most likely be banned 130 Attack and 116 speed with this kind of STAB combo is wayyy too much, not to mention it has a 120 Spatk for a potential special set to chance up its answers.. did I mention they have SD too?

Chien-Pao - Weavile is already one of the scariest mons to fight and it doesn't even have an offensive ability. Now you're trying to introduce a clone with not only a defense-halving dark arua, but even MORE speed?? Just be lucky they already nerfed its 130 attack to 120 like weav's... still too much most likely.

Gholdengo - Holy fuck this pokemon is huge ngl. I don't want to dabble on it too much since I'm pretty sure NatDex isn't being considered in this thread, but having something that can block defog in a meta where defog is very widespread is EXCELLENT for hazard stack. Even in OU, once home releases and defog becomes more common this pokemon will be there to block it. Even outside of that niche though it's a solid pokemon by itself, with 133 Spatk and Make it rain being a mini steel draco meteor I can see it pulling off a very mean specs set. My most anticipated mon that's not immediately broken.

Iron Bundle - Ah yes, Kyu 2: Present Boogaloo. We've seen what happens when you give freeze dry to a strong mon with decentish speed, now we have one with 124/136 offenses with Freeze Dry + Water STAB basically hitting everything relevant for at least neutral it's going to be stupid trying to deal with this mon, especially if it puts on the specs...

Palafin - Man. fuck do I have to say? 160 Attack with a 60 BP stab priority move is going to be great, especially if the meta turns out as offensive as people are expecting. It has to first be in it's piss poor form, but once that's handled...

Now I wanna talk about some disappointments:

Tinkaton - Look.. I know it has a 160 BP move so I'm not as disappointed, but man it would've been funny to see this thing walk around with a more threatening attack stat than just 75. Might be threatening in lower tiers though.

Annihilape - If Rage Fist does retain it's boosts even after switching then I'll move this right out of here, but if not this was a huge waste of potential. I would've been fine with the speed drop.. until I realized they DIDN'T give this mon poltergeist. This could've been an interesting breaker because of how notoriously hard it is to switch into fighting/ghost coverage. Maybe DLC can give it polt?
 

John Madden

formerly j3b4it33d
So in one of his recent videos, blunder mentioned the use of Leppa Berry to replenish the pp of Revival Blessing. For those who don't know, Revival Blessing has only 1pp, and PP ups do not work on it (I've tried it). I went to test the theory on a Scarlet rom that I have and yes, if you make the mon hold a Leppa Berry and it uses the move, the pp will replenish, meaning that you can revive 1/3 of your team if it faints. Take that as you will.

1668392788307.png
 

1LDK

It's never going to get better
is a Top Team Rater
So in one of his recent videos, blunder mentioned the use of Leppa Berry to replenish the pp of Revival Blessing. For those who don't know, Revival Blessing has only 1pp, and PP ups do not work on it (I've tried it). I went to test the theory on a Scarlet rom that I have and yes, if you make the mon hold a Leppa Berry and it uses the move, the pp will replenish, meaning that you can revive 1/3 of your team if it faints. Take that as you will.

View attachment 465322
So this means a 2 time usable RB, that means not 1, but 2 mons, 2 attackers, 2 walls, 1 and 1, HO can basically start spamming Explosion and Self Destruct to keep rocks up or do damage, and its not gonna even matter, you can also revive a pex, and then regens and now its a 75%, oof man this looking kinda whack
 
So in one of his recent videos, blunder mentioned the use of Leppa Berry to replenish the pp of Revival Blessing. For those who don't know, Revival Blessing has only 1pp, and PP ups do not work on it (I've tried it). I went to test the theory on a Scarlet rom that I have and yes, if you make the mon hold a Leppa Berry and it uses the move, the pp will replenish, meaning that you can revive 1/3 of your team if it faints. Take that as you will.

View attachment 465322
Thanks for testing this! I did have a few other questions for how this move works though.
- Does it restore the fainted Pokemon's PP?
- Can you use revival Blessing on another Pokemon with revival blessing?

I would greatly appreciate answers to these questions!
 
Fun fact: Palafin has access to Boomburst. You could slap together a goofy-ass Specs set (Boomburst/Ice Beam/Wave Crash because 160 Attack/Focus Blast or Flip Turn) and actually threaten to 2HKO just about every returning Pokemon in OU.

Not saying that you ever should, but you could.
 

John Madden

formerly j3b4it33d
Thanks for testing this! I did have a few other questions for how this move works though.
- Does it restore the fainted Pokemon's PP?
- Can you use revival Blessing on another Pokemon with revival blessing?

I would greatly appreciate answers to these questions!
These are good questions. I'll have a look as some stage in the next day or so
 
I was thinking about defensive terastal, and I came up with a silly scenario. Say you're using your trusty Clodsire to set hazards up in this hazard heavy metagame, and a pesky Chien-Pao appears to stop you. If you stick around to get rocks up, or even worse, switch in to this monster, you'll be in big trouble, and odds are you're not getting your rocks.

252+ Atk Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Clodsire: 426-504 (91.8 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

However, there is a solution! One your opponent, in all their foolishness, will not see coming. All you need to do is stick a candle in the top of your chocolate eclair, and voila! Your clueless opponent will be unable to stop you from setting your devious trap for them.

252+ Atk Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera-Fire Clodsire: 106-126 (22.8 - 27.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

No need to thank me for saving OU this generation, it's all in a days work. And Chien-Pao, see you in PU buddy. There's no way around this unsto-

+2 252+ Atk Tera-Dark Chien-Pao Night Slash vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera-Fire Clodsire: 466-550 (100.4 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Ah. Well... at least you'd get rocks up!

(This was a gag post, I don't think Sword of Ruin is a straight -1, but the point is that terastal is very silly and it makes me laugh. Thank you!)
The funny thing is that while this is a Gag Post, Clodsire has access to Unaware which would dampen the latter calc among other things, so if he's run anything like Quagsire (which is up for debate since Water Absorb would do him a lot more good defensively than his Johto counterpart), this play could be of unironic use, given Unaware mons lean much more on their ability and bulk than their type profile to stop Set-up Sweepers
 
The funny thing is that while this is a Gag Post, Clodsire has access to Unaware which would dampen the latter calc among other things, so if he's run anything like Quagsire (which is up for debate since Water Absorb would do him a lot more good defensively than his Johto counterpart), this play could be of unironic use, given Unaware mons lean much more on their ability and bulk than their type profile to stop Set-up Sweepers
Yeah, I had to run Water Absorb to make the joke work, but I also think Water Absorb is perfectly viable. Clodsire is being slept on a bit right now, I think it's got a lot going for it defensively and support wise, and it might end up being easy to splash on teams because of that.
 
Yeah, I had to run Water Absorb to make the joke work, but I also think Water Absorb is perfectly viable. Clodsire is being slept on a bit right now, I think it's got a lot going for it defensively and support wise, and it might end up being easy to splash on teams because of that.
Clodsire is Quagsire with an arguably better typing (I feel like no Scald means Water loses a lot of presence on attacking), two useful abilities, and a lot more natural bulk. Quagsire's always felt like it was "just enough" for advantageous type match-ups, but couldn't stand long from neutral or even just strong-resisted hits, whereas Clod, pending meta development, could just be viable as a defensive mon without the specific Unaware niche (though you'll definitely have sets capitalizing there if we see things like Calm Mind Clef, NP Torn-T, several DD's, etc.)

Opens a lot of room to play him as a team role rather than a specialized check that you need to preserve, such as using him as your outright Electric Immunity
 
It seems likely that SV OU will begin with both Arena Trap and Shadow Tag on the banlist. This is not a formal, official announcement at all; it is technically subject to change. However, there will be a formal banlist provided upon the release of the generation and SV OU subforum.
Everybody should give this post a like. If it comes to pass that Shadow Tag and Arena Trap will be on the initial banlist, it'll be the best decision we could get for the start of any generation since Shadow Tag started getting banned regularly.
 
Clodsire is Quagsire with an arguably better typing (I feel like no Scald means Water loses a lot of presence on attacking), two useful abilities, and a lot more natural bulk. Quagsire's always felt like it was "just enough" for advantageous type match-ups, but couldn't stand long from neutral or even just strong-resisted hits, whereas Clod, pending meta development, could just be viable as a defensive mon without the specific Unaware niche (though you'll definitely have sets capitalizing there if we see things like Calm Mind Clef, NP Torn-T, several DD's, etc.)

Opens a lot of room to play him as a team role rather than a specialized check that you need to preserve, such as using him as your outright Electric Immunity
something i think is really important is that clodsire gets dual hazards, making it way more useful on non-stall teams than quagsire ever was in previous gens. also helps that it toxic in a world where nearly everything else has lost it. interestingly enough quagsire also has dual hazards now, on top of keeping toxic. makes me wonder if he could become more of a defensive staple too, though he's way more reliant on unaware than clodsire is
 
something i think is really important is that clodsire gets dual hazards, making it way more useful on non-stall teams than quagsire ever was in previous gens. also helps that it toxic in a world where nearly everything else has lost it. interestingly enough quagsire also has dual hazards now, on top of keeping toxic. makes me wonder if he could become more of a defensive staple too, though he's way more reliant on unaware than clodsire is
With the reduced distribution of Hazard removal methods, I'm curious how much more or less value having Hazards will add to a Pokemon's moveset. Stacking them is certainly going to be a lot more viable, but will teams want to rely on defensive anchors for it, or could we see things like multiple users of Spikes throwing down individual layers as they create pressure on different turns to avoid the usual Spike-Stacking concern of sinking momentum or having to watch the one setter's health.
 
I just wanna also mention the fact that I think the way we tier is gonna really shift due to the new mechanics and way more offensive nature of this tier. Like, it isn't just that things break other things anymore, it's how fast they do it lmfao. We have no real defensive measures anymore because gamefreak hates stall appearently (they definitely overdid that nerf and I hope it gets tweaked before release). I'm curious what you guys think of it and how it should be handled, given this very unique case.

P.S.

Is it just me or does SV feel like everything Nintendo has had in their back pocket for the last 10 years and then some fan made rom hacks?
 
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Is it just me or does SV feel like everything Nintendo has had in their back pocket for the last 10 years and then some fan made rom hacks?
yea it does

We have no real defensive measures anymore because gamefreak hates stall appearently (they definitely overdid that nerf and I hope it gets tweaked before release).
not true! we have toxapex which... can't rly do anything

I feel like scarlet/violet is what u get when u let omari p make a pokemon game
 
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I just wanna also mention the fact that I think the way we tier is gonna really shift due to the new mechanics and way more offensive nature of this tier. Like, it isn't just that things break other things anymore, it's how fast they too it lmfao. We have no real defensive measures anymore because gamefreak hates stall appearently (they definitely overdid that nerf and I hope it gets tweaked before release). I'm curious what you guys think of it and how it should be handled, given this very unique case.
Smogon will just ban anything that is broken offensively or is too good at supporting Hyper Offense. Pawmot being able to revive a KOed teammate twice is just dumb, and forcing a team to KO a threat that it already dealt with once is bad for the balance of the game since you only have 6 Pokemon to execute your game plan, and it's not feasible to prepare for the same threat 2 or even 3 times.
 
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