Metagame SS Monotype Metagame Discussion [Crown Tundra]

[Harpp]

Attention
Hello everyone, the Monotype Council is putting out a survey to gauge public opinion on the current metagame. This survey, which includes questions about current Pokemon in the metagame, will be sent in this post and those with a Smogon account may respond. We will keep this open through the end of 14th May 2021 but the council will be reading responses as they come in.

Please note that the results of this survey does not guarantee that we will be banning or unbanning anything. It is not some kind of vote.

Please respond to the survey here! If you have any questions, feel free to shoot me a PM. Have a great day.

https://forms.gle/gLexgwXfKZg1Dfdh8

 

[mushamu]

I'm locking this thread in light of the recent Urshifu-S suspect which we have decided to run based on the current survey responses. Feel free to post after the suspect has concluded and I encourage you to give the suspect a shot if you feel strongly about Urshifu-S in Monotype.

 

[Harpp]

Hi all, the survey has been concluded and no longer accepting responses. The council wanted to gauge the opinion of the general playerbase. The survey results are not being used to completely dictate our course of action as we are aware it is not all inclusive and complete of what the playerbase thinks and feels.

We received 294 responses. The results can be seen here as follows:

Hide

Some notable statistics from the survey:

• 36.7% of the respondents somewhat agree to enjoy the metagame.
• 33.9% of the respondents somewhat agree to find the metagame as competitive.
• 22.4% of the respondents somewhat agree that Urshifu-S is broken.
• 19.4 % of the respondents disagree to find Urshifu-R as broken.
• 19.7% of the respondents agree that Dracovish is broken.
• 22.4% of the respondents neither agree or disagree to find Tapu Lele as broken.
• 19.7% of the respondents neither agree or disagree to find Aegislash as broken.
• 25.9% of the respondents strongly disagree that Zapdos is broken.
• 24.5% of the respondents neither agree or disagree to find Spectrier as broken.
• 19.7% of the respondents neither agree or disagree to find Melmetal as broken.
• 20.4% of the respondents somewhat agree that Landorus-I is broken.
• Majority of the respondents believe that Urshifu-S and Dracovish deserve a suspect.
Given to this data, we had a discussion and we elected to suspect Urshifu-S following which it got banned.
• 54.8% of the respondents think there are no Pokemon in the current metagame that are suspect worthy.

Also here are some intriguing responses:

If you answered yes to the previous question, what Pokemon should be suspected and why?

That is it, Thank you to everyone for the input on the survey. Please keep in mind we do not base our decision entirely based on the most popular survey result as it is not all inclusive. The survey results has guided us to come to a decision and we have taken the survey results into account. The council is always on the lookout to address issues that make the Monotype metagame a better and more competitive format. Stay tuned for what is next for SS Monotype in the coming days or week. Have a great day and stay safe everyone!

 

[mushamu]

Dracovish and Urshifu were two Pokemon that made Monotype uncompetitive by shifting matchups, restricting building, and ultimately centralized the metagame around a few types and builds. As for a post Dracovish / Urshifu metagame, I think this metagame will become skill based with lots of variety instead of watching sack wars between extremes take place half the time.

I think Aegislash will actually get worse in a post Dracovish / Urshifu metagame contrary to popular opinion. These two Pokemon were good against Steel itself but also restricted teambuilding to the point where you had to run Tapu Lele in order to win sack wars against both Pokemon on Psychic for example, and Fairy now has the freedom to run different Tapu Bulu sets like Swords Dance instead of just Choice Scarf to ensure you don't die to Dracovish. With these two Pokemon out of the picture, certain types can prepare for Aegislash better, while it already has good answers in the current metagame even before the bans. As for Steel itself, I think teams can now get away with dropping Ferrothorn, which was a necessity to run beforehand so you don't get 6-0ed by Dracovish itself for offensive options like Jirachi, Bisharp, Magnezone, or Melmetal.

So far, I really like the new metagame as I believe it is very skill based unlike before. Dracovish itself was very uncompetitive and had a negative effect on the metagame; and without it the metagame will only improve. I've seen many people describe SS Monotype as "matchup", or "coin flip", but this is not true for either metagame; the metagame was only centralized to the point where you could only run a few types successfully (Fairy, Steel, Electric, Dragon) without risking getting "matchup"'d by an extreme that shouldn't be here to begin with when Dracovish and Urshifu were present. But now, there is more versatility in the builder in different ways, and more thinking involved, leading to more competitive games and an overall more healthy tier. I think SS Monotype has the potential to be near competitive and fun as SM is with bans in place and steps moving forward.

 

[|Powerman|]

Shitpost

 

[icyruios]

As for Steel itself, I think teams can now get away with dropping Ferrothorn, which was a necessity to run beforehand so you don't get 6-0ed by Dracovish itself for offensive options like Jirachi, Bisharp, Magnezone, or Melmetal.

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask. Since you mentioned about Steel I have a few questions which maybe you can help.

I've used the sample team and also tried to make my own team with slight variations to the sample team. A lot of time, if not most of the time it boils down to

• Heatran being a must for Fire immunity
• Aegislash being a must for Fighting immunity
• Skarmoy/Celesteela/Corviknight being a must for Ground immunity

And almost everytime I end up getting Ferrothorn as a core with Heatran to soak up Water attacks (and also generally does better against rain teams) Fifth option is almost always an Excadril as a core with my Flying/Steel mon, most of the time scarfed. And that leaves the 6th option. I don't know if I'm the only one who feels that Steel teams combinations are restricted to such.

There are so many really good options (just the back of my head)

• Melmetal with Choice Band hits so hard, or Assault Vest also hits hard with added special bulk
• Bisharp with Swords Dance and also act as a Defiant user for Defog
• Jirachi has so many options, as a hazard setter/pivot, or even as a Special Attacker

It's like there so many nice options to choose from, but I'm almost restricted to only pick one of them. Since you mentioned that Steel teams could potentially drop Ferrothorn I was wondering how if Steel teams drop Ferrothorn, what options would be good to fit into Steel teams. Generally Ferrothorn does still seem really good as a Stealth Rocker/Spikes Setter, and also as a general Physical tank. And also if we drop Ferrothorn how will that affect our Water matchup (because personally for me Water teams do seem hard to go against).

And also if there are any other good recommendations other that the mons I mentioned?

 

[wkxkevin]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask. Since you mentioned about Steel I have a few questions which maybe you can help.

I've used the sample team and also tried to make my own team with slight variations to the sample team. A lot of time, if not most of the time it boils down to

• Heatran being a must for Fire immunity
• Aegislash being a must for Fighting immunity
• Skarmoy/Celesteela/Corviknight being a must for Ground immunity

And almost everytime I end up getting Ferrothorn as a core with Heatran to soak up Water attacks (and also generally does better against rain teams) Fifth option is almost always an Excadril as a core with my Flying/Steel mon, most of the time scarfed. And that leaves the 6th option. I don't know if I'm the only one who feels that Steel teams combinations are restricted to such.

There are so many really good options (just the back of my head)

• Melmetal with Choice Band hits so hard, or Assault Vest also hits hard with added special bulk
• Bisharp with Swords Dance and also act as a Defiant user for Defog
• Jirachi has so many options, as a hazard setter/pivot, or even as a Special Attacker

It's like there so many nice options to choose from, but I'm almost restricted to only pick one of them. Since you mentioned that Steel teams could potentially drop Ferrothorn I was wondering how if Steel teams drop Ferrothorn, what options would be good to fit into Steel teams. Generally Ferrothorn does still seem really good as a Stealth Rocker/Spikes Setter, and also as a general Physical tank. And also if we drop Ferrothorn how will that affect our Water matchup (because personally for me Water teams do seem hard to go against).

And also if there are any other good recommendations other that the mons I mentioned?

As a player that runs steel a lot, I can tell you that I also disagree with dropping ferrothorn. With vish gone, steel still has to deal with mons like the aforementioned crawdaunt and especially powerful swift swimmers like barras, kingdra, and occasional seismetoad. Skewda and seis could even ruin fero's day with cc and focus miss. even without that, fero is the about the most reliable check to choice band ursh rapid's surging strikes. With RH, rapid dies to RH+iron barbs after SR.

Now, of course, there are other ways to stop these mons. The only ones outisde the BIG FOUR(exca+flying+tran+aegis) is sub mind jirachi with tbolt/thunder and energy ball/grass knot, which is a very bad pokemon. One can also run grass coverage of celes to deal with water grounds so jira can run better options like sub+mind+tbolt+moonblast or physical sets with tpunch or use mons like tpunch melm.

The big problem arises with these options being very mediocre at best. In addition, I also main water and I know that when fero is gone, water has a uphill battle to fight against steel.

Oh and last note, steel needs fero for mons like rotom-w on electric and ground types(corv/celes usually isn't enough).
In conclusion, the big four is truly the big 5 and steel can only choose one extra pokemon.

 

[icyruios]

As a player that runs steel a lot, I can tell you that I also disagree with dropping ferrothorn. With vish gone, steel still has to deal with mons like the aforementioned crawdaunt and especially powerful swift swimmers like barras, kingdra, and occasional seismetoad. Skewda and seis could even ruin fero's day with cc and focus miss. even without that, fero is the about the most reliable check to choice band ursh rapid's surging strikes. With RH, rapid dies to RH+iron barbs after SR.

Now, of course, there are other ways to stop these mons. The only ones outisde the BIG FOUR(exca+flying+tran+aegis) is sub mind jirachi with tbolt/thunder and energy ball/grass knot, which is a very bad pokemon. One can also run grass coverage of celes to deal with water grounds so jira can run better options like sub+mind+tbolt+moonblast or physical sets with tpunch or use mons like tpunch melm.

The big problem arises with these options being very mediocre at best. In addition, I also main water and I know that when fero is gone, water has a uphill battle to fight against steel.

Oh and last note, steel needs fero for mons like rotom-w on electric and ground types(corv/celes usually isn't enough).
In conclusion, the big four is truly the big 5 and steel can only choose one extra pokemon.

That's the thing I face most about Steel when trying to build my own team, it boils down to Heatran+Aegislash+Ferrothorn+Excadril. The only mon that is variable is which of the 3 Flying/Steel I want, and my 6th mon.

Thing about Jirachi is that it works wonders against some teams, like having the Psychic coverage works really great against Poison/Fighting, and Thunderbolt works really well against Water/Flying. Moonblast is also good for Dark teams especially Hydreigon. But then outside of specific matchups it seems average. And also, I tried a Calm Mind Jirachi and a lot of times it's hard to even find a chance to properly set up. If I were to have substitute I'll need to drop a coverage move. Unlike the core mons in Steel which can take on a mirage of teams, Jirachi sometimes feel out of place in some matchups. I do want to try out a team with Jirachi though because I like playing with different teams to try out different strategies. Maybe it could work well as a 6th mon to be a Special Attacker, but then I'm also not sure what moveset I should run with my other 5 mons to complement this if anyone have any tips for me it would be greatly appreciated because I really want to give Jirachi a shot

For the last mon, my favourite pick so far has to be Melmetal. Sometimes I run Choice Band, sometimes I run Assault Vest I'm still trying to see what works well for me. I love the sheer power with Choice Band and with it, I know that someone is going down or at least is going to take a hit on thei opponent's side, just by simply pressing Double Iron Bash. But at the same time sometimes I really just hate being choice locked and Assault Vest give me the option to switch attacks (I use Double Iron Bash/Earthquake/Ice Punch/Thunder Punch) and more special bulk to take more hits, but it isn't as strong. Assault Vest Melmetal lets me take on Nidoking though which is something I really like.

I like Bisharp too but sometimes it's just tad frail + not as fast (at least I have Sucker Punch). I tried Lucario as well, but kinda hard to set up and even so it doesn't hit as hard as I want it to sometimes (Nasty Plot).

 

[mushamu]

It's like there so many nice options to choose from, but I'm almost restricted to only pick one of them. Since you mentioned that Steel teams could potentially drop Ferrothorn I was wondering how if Steel teams drop Ferrothorn, what options would be good to fit into Steel teams. Generally Ferrothorn does still seem really good as a Stealth Rocker/Spikes Setter, and also as a general Physical tank. And also if we drop Ferrothorn how will that affect our Water matchup (because personally for me Water teams do seem hard to go against).

I've been trying Jirachi > Ferrothorn for teams that drop it. I think Jirachi is really nice for beating Water teams offensively, since it has Thunderbolt + Energy Ball and can threaten important stuff on other types like Nidoking on Ground, Hydreigon on Dragon, and so on. Generally speaking if you drop Ferrothorn you're making room to run an offensive Pokemon over it to better deal with certain matchups. Also I think Spikes Skarmory + Bisharp pressures Water nicely as well, since Spikes are super tough for Water to deal with and Bisharp threatens the Defoggers. There are probably other offensive options you can try out to beat Water that aren't Jirachi like Automotize Celesteela on hyper offense; Jirachi is the go-to option though because of its coverage + Speed tier (outspeeding Urshifu-R is nice). Choice Specs / Calm Mind Jirachi are pretty standard; with Choice Specs having nice raw power and Calm Mind capitalizing on specific matchups very well and Choice Scarf is probably also viable on certain teams. This is a team I've been trying out: https://pokepast.es/a6c2620ec6fd2c0d

Dropping Ferrothorn on Steel can also mean hyper offense, which focuses on priority spam + Spikes Skarmory to pressure a lot of types. That's probably pretty good right now too, just haven't tried it out personally yet. Lucario fits best on those types of teams.

As a player that runs steel a lot, I can tell you that I also disagree with dropping ferrothorn. With vish gone, steel still has to deal with mons like the aforementioned crawdaunt and especially powerful swift swimmers like barras, kingdra, and occasional seismetoad. Skewda and seis could even ruin fero's day with cc and focus miss. even without that, fero is the about the most reliable check to choice band ursh rapid's surging strikes. With RH, rapid dies to RH+iron barbs after SR.

Now, of course, there are other ways to stop these mons. The only ones outisde the BIG FOUR(exca+flying+tran+aegis) is sub mind jirachi with tbolt/thunder and energy ball/grass knot, which is a very bad pokemon. One can also run grass coverage of celes to deal with water grounds so jira can run better options like sub+mind+tbolt+moonblast or physical sets with tpunch or use mons like tpunch melm.

The big problem arises with these options being very mediocre at best. In addition, I also main water and I know that when fero is gone, water has a uphill battle to fight against steel.

Oh and last note, steel needs fero for mons like rotom-w on electric and ground types(corv/celes usually isn't enough).
In conclusion, the big four is truly the big 5 and steel can only choose one extra pokemon.

The reasoning as to why I think Ferrothorn is very droppable is because of how offensive the metagame is; sometimes it really just feels like a momentum drain (not too great against Flying, Dragon, Electric) and running more offensive options to beat more types while making the Water and Ground matchups slightly weaker, if at all, can be worth it. Steel can offensively pressure Water and Ground anyways through Spikes, Jirachi can outspeed and pressure a bunch of things naturally, and Sucker Punch Bisharp is useful for taking out weather abusers after chip. You don't have to run Substitute + Calm Mind for these specific types; you can just run something like Choice Specs which already has the sufficient coverage despite being slightly weaker. Ferrothornless Steel was a thing in SM Monotype; the only reason as to why you wouldn't be able to run it beforehand in SS is because you used to get 6-0ed by Dracovish without it.

 

[icyruios]

I've been trying Jirachi > Ferrothorn for teams that drop it. I think Jirachi is really nice for beating Water teams offensively, since it has Thunderbolt + Energy Ball and can threaten important stuff on other types like Nidoking on Ground, Hydreigon on Dragon, and so on. Generally speaking if you drop Ferrothorn you're making room to run an offensive Pokemon over it to better deal with certain matchups. Also I think Spikes Skarmory + Bisharp pressures Water nicely as well, since Spikes are super tough for Water to deal with and Bisharp threatens the Defoggers. There are probably other offensive options you can try out to beat Water that aren't Jirachi like Automotize Celesteela on hyper offense; Jirachi is the go-to option though because of its coverage + Speed tier (outspeeding Urshifu-R is nice). Choice Specs / Calm Mind Jirachi are pretty standard; with Choice Specs having nice raw power and Calm Mind capitalizing on specific matchups very well and Choice Scarf is probably also viable on certain teams. This is a team I've been trying out: https://pokepast.es/a6c2620ec6fd2c0d

Dropping Ferrothorn on Steel can also mean hyper offense, which focuses on priority spam + Spikes Skarmory to pressure a lot of types. That's probably pretty good right now too, just haven't tried it out personally yet. Lucario fits best on those types of teams.

I suppose in this case it's more of like Skarmory replacing Ferrothorn as the role of a Physical Wall and also Spikes Setter? Also, what do you think of Calm Mind Jirachi? Calm Mind + Psychic + Thunder/Thunderbolt is probably a must, but the 4th option? Hard to choose between Energy Ball (helps against Water/Ground) and Moonblast (helps against Dark/Dragon)

Also, I'm thinking of trying an Autonomize Celesteela as well as oppose to the tanky Celesteela that I have in most sets, but I'm not sure what moveset and team members (movesets) would be good for it.

 

[mushamu]

I suppose in this case it's more of like Skarmory replacing Ferrothorn as the role of a Physical Wall and also Spikes Setter? Also, what do you think of Calm Mind Jirachi? Calm Mind + Psychic + Thunder/Thunderbolt is probably a must, but the 4th option? Hard to choose between Energy Ball (helps against Water/Ground) and Moonblast (helps against Dark/Dragon)

Also, I'm thinking of trying an Autonomize Celesteela as well as oppose to the tanky Celesteela that I have in most sets, but I'm not sure what moveset and team members (movesets) would be good for it.

Yeah @ Skarmory being the Spiker is fine on Ferrothornless teams. Calm Mind Jirachi is really good at capitalizing on speciic matchups, but it's kind of a pick and choose type of deal since you have to decide what coverage you want to run on it. Calm Mind + Psychic + Thunderbolt/Thunder + Energy Ball with Moonblast over one of them is ok; like I said it's kind of a pick and choose Pokemon so you can choose to either be good against Water or Dragon. Alternatively, you can give up Thunderbolt, but that means it's worse against Flying now. Would try out different combinations and sets on your own and see which one best fits your team.

Automotize Celesteela would run like Automotize / Meteor Beam / Air Slash / Giga Drain or Flamethrower but its really a tossup like CM Jirachi in that you kinda have to think about which types you want it to do well against. You can definitely mix it up, and it would fit on offensive teams with like lead Skarmory or screens Klefki as support.

 

[Ctann]

The fact that discussing steel having a way to reliably beat water is a thing.. I wish other types had the luxury, steel is very oppressing and likely to be an auto lose for types like ice poison or grass if they don’t have too much resources dedicated to breaking it. And by autolose I mean a very realistic 0-6!

I guess monotype is inherently skewed towards the types with the best matchups.

 

[icyruios]

I haven't played Monotype in awhile but I think stating that Ice cannot beat Steel is wrong. Ice has acess to Darmanitan-Galar, which can use moves such as Flare Blitz and Earthquake. This forces uncomfortable 50/50's on the part of the Steel player, who, in the event they predict wrong, will have their immunity core dismantled and leave themselves open to a sweep. Slowking-Galar has acess to both Flamethrower and Focus Blast, which will also force 50/50's on the part of the Steel player. Furthermore due to Pokémon such as Heatran's lack of reliable recovery, they cannot predict incorrectly multiple times or else will face the same fate as before; having their immunity core dismantled and opining themselves up to a late-game sweep. As both Darmanitan-Galar and Slowking-Galar are basically staples on their respective types, I feel that it does not require too many resources to prepare for Steel.

The thing about Steel is that it has an amazing immunity core, but eventually it is all about really predicting, and there is a lot of 50/50 that can go wrong. Like

• If I'm facing a Urshifu - R, do I go to Ferrothorn predicting Banded Surging Strikes, or Aegislash predicting Banded Close Combat. Oh wait what if it's a Bulk Up variant?
• If I'm facing a potential Electric move, do I go into Excadril? But what if Zeraora uses Close Combat? What if Thundurus uses Focus Blast?
• If I'm facing a Victini, do I go to Heatran to absorb a potential V Create? What if they decide to use Bolt Strike would it be better to go to Excadril instead?

I do think Steel is a really strong type but yeah a lot of it boils down to 50/50 chances

 

[yedla]

I wish other types had the luxury, steel is very oppressing and likely to be an auto lose for types like ice poison or grass if they don’t have too much resources dedicated to breaking it. And by autolose I mean a very realistic 0-6!

This sentence is wrong in particular for the poison match up but i will try to explain how this 3 types can beat steel.

POISON
Poison is definitely the best type to beat steel on the list because you have one top tier for breaking steel,
nidoking A rank in the poison viability ranking and 100% use in the sample team.

Hide

Nidoking (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Thunderbolt
- Flamethrower

With Earth Power and Flamethrower you can claim a lot of kill without taking any risk.
Steel doesn't have any good revenge killer because excadrill is wall by Amoonguss at full and it's difficult to lower his health with boots and regenerator.

Hide

Slowking-Galar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Future Sight
- Sludge Bomb
- Earthquake
- Flamethrower

Slowking Galar is another pokemon annoying for steel less powerfull than nidoking but he can wall the special attacker in a lot of match up,
here he can wall heatran and kill everything with Flamethrower and Earthquake.


ICE
I will not talk about Darmanitan Galar because the post above already do it and even if darma can beat the most offensive steel, the bulkier play in general a lot of protect which can be annoying. However, there are a few Pokémon that can do the job.

Hide

Kyurem @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 56 HP / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Roost
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power

One of the best pokemon in monotype he can sub on ferrothorn heatran, he can also pp stall heavy slam of celesteela.

Hide

Glastrier @ Leftovers
Ability: Chilling Neigh
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Icicle Crash
- High Horsepower

This isn't the most common pokemon but i think that's a cool option if you want to beat steel and he can do some work vs other match up too like poison.

In conclusion, despite the match up can be easier to play with steel that's definitely winnable against steel without melmetal.

GRASS
Like for ice i will not pretend that the match up is good but steel doesn't have any pokemon who beat immediatly grass,
in general you have a Ferrothorn war early in the game so you can put your spikes and after that heatran come on your ferro and you can put your Stealth Rocks with cradily and some Pokemons can sweep with hazard up.

Hide

Rillaboom @ Life Orb
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Grassy Glide
- Knock Off
- Superpower


Zarude @ Leftovers
Ability: Leaf Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Darkest Lariat
- Drain Punch/Taunt/Close Combat
- Jungle Healing


Celebi @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psychic
- Earth Power
- Aura Sphere

I don't think those 3 Pokémons need that much explanation all 3 have good defense so you can boost yourself easly and if the Choice Scarf of the team is Excadrill Grass can definitely win that however against Scarf Heatran pretty sure you lose like melmetal vs Ice.


In conclusion, i don't want to say it's easy to win against steel because it's false but the monotype isn't resume by steel is immune to poison so steel win that's more complicated than that and this is why Monotype is interesting !

 

[QY_CS]

Spectrier needs to be BANNED. It is functioning quite similar to how Kartana used to function for Steel, and it is very oppressive, if not unbeatable, for many types to handle.

1. It's speed tier is unacceptably high considering its power. It outspeeds the vast majority of the metagame while unboosted, and with Choice Scarf it even outspeeds some of the fastest threats in game such as Kingdra in rain or Adamant Excadrill in sand. This makes it a no brainer sweeper that is often impossible to deal with for most teams.

2. It is immune to Normal type and Fighting type priority moves, while not being overly weak to others. Many common priorities will fail to revenge kill it, some even fails after chip from rocks:
252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Spectrier in Grassy Terrain: 309-367 (90.6 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Grimmsnarl Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Spectrier: 266-314 (78 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Spectrier: 243-286 (71.2 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Oh and btw, faster Pokemon (which barely exists anyways) won't all be able to kill it either:
252+ SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spectrier in Electric Terrain: 265-312 (77.7 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spectrier: 264-312 (77.4 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

3. It offers the team with an one click snowball sweep, due to its ability to boost its special attack after KO'ing a mon. This denies one of the most important ways to deal with threats in Monotype and Gen8 in general: sacking a pokemon then revenge killing it.

4. It often forces opposing teams to sack against its teammates' Shadow Ball, as it is unacceptable to have a weakened Shadow Ball blocker against an unrevengeable Shadow Ball sweeper.

5. Ghost type offers great defensive backbone that eases the chip work for Spectrier, allowing it to sweep even more freely.

From the above, I am mainly introducing the extreme difficulty of dealing with Choice Scarf Spectrier, however SubCM and Specs set are also amazing sets that allows Spectrier to dismantle teams or create win conditions for teammates (yeah burned Bisharp, I'm talking bout your tragedy). The current meta is oppressed way too much by this Pokemon, and anything that isn't Dark or Normal team is pretty much forced to run multiple checks to Spectrier in order to even stand a chance against Ghost. While Spectrier is not without its flaws, namely not being able to support its own team to break through Dark/Normal and lacking coverage moves in general, it does not balanced out at all the overpowered aspects of Spectrier, and is not as nearly as enough to justify for it not being banned.

P.S.
#1 I'm not claiming that it is identical to Kartana, and this post is not about Kartana.
#2 I will start creating some replays of abusing Spectier to show how it's being broken.

 

[icyruios]

POISON
Poison is definitely the best type to beat steel on the list because you have one top tier for breaking steel,
nidoking A rank in the poison viability ranking and 100% use in the sample team.

Hide

Nidoking (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Thunderbolt
- Flamethrower

With Earth Power and Flamethrower you can claim a lot of kill without taking any risk.
Steel doesn't have any good revenge killer because excadrill is wall by Amoonguss at full and it's difficult to lower his health with boots and regenerator.

This mon is literally why I use an Assault Vest Melmetal, so that I can tank an Earth Power and OHKO. Literally all my other Steel types get either OHKO'ed or 2HKO'ed, and most of them are slower than Nidoking unless it's a Excadril (a lot of times scarfed so choice locked walled by Amoonguss like you said ) or Jirachi that can OHKO Nidoking since they are faster.

 

[Fírnen]

There is something I don't understand.
Why does Mono Council want to weaken the Steel core when it isn't the strongest in the current metagame.

Flying has by far the best core and best diversity possible in Monotype. No one can deny it.

What's Steel core? Aegislash, Heatran, Flying/Steel Pokémon (And Ferrothorn) ? How does it not breakable?
Flying core is way better, with better Pokémon able to nuke some types alone with teammates covering it.
By example: Moltres-Galar, this lovely bird destroys Ghost, Psychic, Steel,... "Oh but u are wrong, Psychic can deal with it with Tapu Lele and Hatterene!" : Lol. When u've, like I said, good teammates able to cover it like Celesteela, Landorus-T, Thundurus-T, Mantine,... That's laughable.

The point I want to say in this message is I don't understand why Council thought Aegislash was broken and why it gives to Steel a best core than Flying already have but nobody said a word on it. I feel this suspect is pretty strange and maybe not the best for Monotype at the moment.
Don't say what I didn't say, Aegislash is a top Pokemon with a lot of possibilities (Sub-Toxic, Specs, SD, WP,...) but I never had this feeling it made a type broken because of it, or just broken itself.

From an old boomer like me, there was a situation nearly similar to the OP Flying core in ORAS (or XY, Boomer memory is weak) where council really nerved the best core at this time with Zapdos ban because Flying type was just too strong compared to other types.
That was a stronger core than the current one.

Thanks u for ur reading.

 

[Fraolain]

There is something I don't understand.
Why does Mono Council want to weaken the Steel core when it isn't the strongest in the current metagame.

Flying has by far the best core and best diversity possible in Monotype. No one can deny it.

What's Steel core? Aegislash, Heatran, Flying/Steel Pokémon (And Ferrothorn) ? How does it not breakable?
Flying core is way better, with better Pokémon able to nuke some types alone with teammates covering it.
By example: Moltres-Galar, this lovely bird destroys Ghost, Psychic, Steel,... "Oh but u are wrong, Psychic can deal with it with Tapu Lele and Hatterene!" : Lol. When u've, like I said, good teammates able to cover it like Celesteela, Landorus-T, Thundurus-T, Mantine,... That's laughable.

The point I want to say in this message is I don't understand why Council thought Aegislash was broken and why it gives to Steel a best core than Flying already have but nobody said a word on it. I feel this suspect is pretty strange and maybe not the best for Monotype at the moment.
Don't say what I didn't say, Aegislash is a top Pokemon with a lot of possibilities (Sub-Toxic, Specs, SD, WP,...) but I never had this feeling it made a type broken because of it, or just broken itself.

From an old boomer like me, there was a situation nearly similar to the OP Flying core in ORAS (or XY, Boomer memory is weak) where council really nerved the best core at this time with Zapdos ban because Flying type was just too strong compared to other types.
That was a stronger core than the current one.

Thanks u for ur reading.

I'm 100% with fírnen here.

The steel core is quite strong, but almost every types has options to possibly break it :

Bug:

It's pretty hard but mons like rest coil can do the job depending on the celesteela

Dark:

mons like sub or can possibly break it

Dragon:

SD , sub or sub bulk up (might depend on the steel flying)

Electric:

BU and can both deal with steel decently well

Fairy:

One of the few type that struggle a bit against the core (but even with aegi banned it would still be the same). Belly drum with superpower could maybe break throught it if the steel/fly is not skarmory.

Fighting:

CM, , and more but I'm too lazy to list everything

Fire:

BU (low kick for the protect spam), and probably more

Flying:

SD gravity, BU, sub plot and maybe more

Ghost:

As there is no real ghost resistance in the said core, specs or the usual sub cm can do fairly well, as well as mons like , swords dance/WP , specs

Grass:

Weather ball earth power , depending on the steel/fly

Ground:

, gravity SD, body press

Ice:

Here it's hard, maybe even impossible (unless you unleash the BU encore babiri berry ) and it's probably one of the only type that would benefits from the ban of aegislash

Normal:

Sub BU , Curse

Poison:

,

Psychic:

Sub , Swords dance if you're a true surrealist, and maybe some shenanigans

Rock:
Swords dance

Steel:
Mirror MU so basically who has the faster

Water:
, , specs

-

So to echo to what fírnen said, I think this suspect is pointless. The steel core is far from being the strongest of all types atm, especially with flying being around, most of the mons I mentioned here would still be played even if steel wasn't a top tier type. If a mon should have been suspected here it would have been better to choose anything else from the flying type, or if you want to stay in the steel type (thought it's not the most important type to nerf imo), there is who is starting to become a quite serious threat to some types

​

 

[Dieu Amphibien]

lol.

some things who can break steel core: and even more

some things who can switch in to specs zapdos:

 

[icyruios]

I'm 100% with fírnen here.

The steel core is quite strong, but almost every types has options to possibly break it :

Bug:

It's pretty hard but mons like rest coil can do the job depending on the celesteela

Dark:

mons like sub or can possibly break it

Dragon:

SD , sub or sub bulk up (might depend on the steel flying)

Electric:

BU and can both deal with steel decently well

Fairy:

One of the few type that struggle a bit against the core (but even with aegi banned it would still be the same). Belly drum with superpower could maybe break throught it if the steel/fly is not skarmory.

Fighting:

CM, , and more but I'm too lazy to list everything

Fire:

BU (low kick for the protect spam), and probably more

Flying:

SD gravity, BU, sub plot and maybe more

Ghost:

As there is no real ghost resistance in the said core, specs or the usual sub cm can do fairly well, as well as mons like , swords dance/WP , specs

Grass:

Weather ball earth power , depending on the steel/fly

Ground:

, gravity SD, body press

Ice:

Here it's hard, maybe even impossible (unless you unleash the BU encore babiri berry ) and it's probably one of the only type that would benefits from the ban of aegislash

Normal:

Sub BU , Curse

Poison:

,

Psychic:

Sub , Swords dance if you're a true surrealist, and maybe some shenanigans

Rock:
Swords dance

Steel:
Mirror MU so basically who has the faster

Water:
, , specs

-

So to echo to what fírnen said, I think this suspect is pointless. The steel core is far from being the strongest of all types atm, especially with flying being around, most of the mons I mentioned here would still be played even if steel wasn't a top tier type. If a mon should have been suspected here it would have been better to choose anything else from the flying type, or if you want to stay in the steel type (thought it's not the most important type to nerf imo), there is who is starting to become a quite serious threat to some types

​

The last part about Melmetal, it is literally why I use it because it can handle some of Steel's most threatening mons. But I have to use an Assault Vest variant to be able to and come in at full HP.

One of my biggest threats playing Steel are Nidoking/Moltres-G/Hydreigon/Thundurus-T all which my Assault Vest Melmetal can handle if it is at full HP, because it can tank a hit and threaten to OHKO.

But even so, it does not have longevity because it lack recovery so it can be slowly chipped as well. And it's slow so it always have to take a hit before dishing out one.

Now my problem is Victini .... that mon on Psychic team is scary. I mean Fire matchup I probably automatic lose anyways but Victini on Psychic teams ....

 

[Ronman5]

lol.

some things who can break steel core: and even more

some things who can switch in to specs zapdos: View attachment 349011

Yeah when the only mon who safety can swap in is Lanturn it’s a decent problem

 

[Pedeath]

Specs Zapdos is getting a lot of usage recently, and I had some problems with it playing monopoison.

It can 3 HKO G-slowking and 2 HKO The rest of the team. Of course we have to consider it will land all the hurricanes, and with only one miss it can be more handable, but weakening Slowking goes a loong way, sice it is needed to check other mons like Raichu, Regieleki (if u do not run Nido), Magnezone and Rotom. Usually i have to sac Pex since it does almost nothing in the electric MU, but in some cases i have to sac another mons to get regen in slowking.

Calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 120-142 (30.4 - 36%) -- 48.8% chance to 3HKO

One option is to run faster mons like gengar, nihilego or scarfers, but removing nido makes other mons more threatening.

 

[Fírnen]

Specs Zapdos is getting a lot of usage recently, and I had some problems with it playing monopoison.

It can 3 HKO G-slowking and 2 HKO The rest of the team. Of course we have to consider it will land all the hurricanes, and with only one miss it can be more handable, but weakening Slowking goes a loong way, sice it is needed to check other mons like Raichu, Regieleki (if u do not run Nido), Magnezone and Rotom. Usually i have to sac Pex since it does almost nothing in the electric MU, but in some cases i have to sac another mons to get regen in slowking.

Calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 120-142 (30.4 - 36%) -- 48.8% chance to 3HKO

One option is to run faster mons like gengar, nihilego or scarfers, but removing nido makes other mons more threatening.

One simple answer, Mono Poison team didn't evolve since the start of the post dlc of the metagame, which explains why people spamming the old same poison team without adapting it for the new meta is bad against Electric/Zapdos Specs.
By example, Nihilego can bring pressure against Zapdos-Specs. Only answer for Nihilego is Magnezone.
Anyways, u should consider to play Nihilego in ur poison team because it's really good for the present metagame: Zapdos-Specs + Flying in general mainly.

So, yes, u will be forced to make new choices in ur teambuilding and not playing always the same dumb rege-core poison team.

 

[Pedeath]

One simple answer, Mono Poison team didn't evolve since the start of the post dlc of the metagame, which explains why people spamming the old same poison team without adapting it for the new meta is bad against Electric/Zapdos Specs.
By example, Nihilego can bring pressure against Zapdos-Specs. Only answer for Nihilego is Magnezone.
Anyways, u should consider to play Nihilego in ur poison team because it's really good for the present metagame: Zapdos-Specs + Flying in general mainly.

So, yes, u will be forced to make new choices in ur teambuilding and not playing always the same dumb rege-core poison team.

Yeah, makes a lot of scence. i actually though about AV nihilego, so i could almost never lose to moltres and it could handle zapdos. But the offensive component of monopoison is a crucial piece of the team. Depending of the pokemon you choose, a lot of MU can be easier or harder. Nido would make stell easier, but gengar is a fast option for other annoying mons, nihilego have sweep potential, but hard loses to steel, rock or other faster physical mons.

But changing ther whole archetype of monopoison could be interesting too

 

[Floss]

Hello everyone, the council is looking to vote on a quickban on King's Rock, Bright Powder, Lax Incense, Quick Claw, and Focus Band this weekend. The purpose behind banning these items would be to eliminate unnecessary uncompetitive aspects of the game. King's Rock serves to give moves a 10% chance to flinch if they have no pre-existing flinching effect, whereas both Bright Powder and Lax Incense serve to reduce the accuracy of the opponent's moves by 10%. Meanwhile, Quick Claw gives the user a 20% chance of moving first in the same priority bracket. Focus Band has the probability of 10% that the user lives any attack thrown at it and can be used multiple times as well. What these 5 items have in common is the chance to increase the amount of RNG induced situations that can take place in a game. While abusers of King's Rock are sparse (Cloyster the most prominent one), and all 5 items have an opportunity cost of being unable to use a different item, mechanics that introduce more RNG into a game without any particular positive effects on the metagame can be perceived as uncompetitive. The logic behind these items being voted on via quickban is that it wouldn't be feasible to hold a suspect on these items, even without considering their scarcity. Before the council takes a vote on these 5 items, it would be appreciated to learn the community's thoughts on them.