Whats your take on Adamant vs Jolly?
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v5 (usage in post #547)
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
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Currently I prefer Adamant as there are some very relevant OHKOs/2HKOs, especially after hazards, it claims. A lot of the +speed speed tier pokemon you catch are less common rn
Urshifu is broken.
Bulk Up, Wicked Blow, Poison Jab, Close Combat busts every team that does not have a toxapex... that is not fun
Bulk Up, Wicked Blow, Poison Jab, Close Combat busts every team that does not have a toxapex... that is not fun
SS Urshifu is definitely hard to switch into, and I haven't found many good answers. I feel obligated to point out that not even Toxapex can stop SS Urshifu, as if it forgoes Haze it has to rely on a Scald burn to avoid the 2HKO from +1 Wicked Blow. And if SS Urshifu is banded...
252 Atk Choice Band Ursaring Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 157-186 (51.6 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery (Changed to ensure it's the same as Urshifu, since it's not in the calc yet)
Yeah it just straight up dies. Physically defensive Clefable walls STABs + U-Turn, only fearing Poison Jab. It eats one before going down. Hippowdon is another usable check, provided it doesn't get chipped much:
252 Atk Choice Band Ursaring Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon on a critical hit: 190-225 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
To summarize, yeah, SS Urshifu 2HKOs every mon in the tier. Attached are two mons that can reliably switch in throughout the match and beat it. One is niche and the other is a complete meme. I think the best way of dealing with it is trying to pivot around/choose a sack until you can bring in a revenge killer to deal with it. Thankfully it's not too hard to revenge kill due to its low special bulk.
Weezing-Galar @ Black Sludge
Bold Nature
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
- Defog
- Strange Steam
- Flamethrower
- Will-O-Wisp
Hawlucha @ Leftovers
Impish Nature
Ability: Limber
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
- Roost
- Defog
- Toxic
- Drain Punch
Bold Nature
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
- Defog
- Strange Steam
- Flamethrower
- Will-O-Wisp
Hawlucha @ Leftovers
Impish Nature
Ability: Limber
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
- Roost
- Defog
- Toxic
- Drain Punch
A little bit earlier in this thread Finch made a post discussing 3 Pokemon that have garnered attention from the OU player base as potentially problematic in the future. I'd like to take a second to post my feelings on the three Pokemon in question: Volcarona, Urshifu, and Magearna. I agree with the overall sentiment that none of these three deserve a quick ban, and that the metagame has more than enough tools to potentially settle around these threats keeping them in check. As I never went through and made an initial post on what I think about the newly added Pokemon in the DLC, instead opting to make a post about ideas for cores with a follow up post showcasing the finished teams. I'd like to take a second to talk about the three Pokemon highlighted by Finch based upon my experiences with them through the short time we've had with the DLC.
Volcarona received a lot of hype leading up to the DLC, as Heavy Duty Boots were supposed to turn Volcarona into a truly amazing force as it no longer demanded such a high level of team support to function. That said I think a lot of people were low balling how much Volcarona would miss the option of running a Z move allowing it to break past some would be check. I think the exchange of nuke for hazard immunity is troublesome for Volcarona when it comes to just coming into the game, clicking Quiver Dance, and proceeding to sweep. However, Volcarona still has a chance to break past a good chunk of its checks with a little bit of patience. I'll start by saying that I'm not currently the biggest fan of Volcarona on Hyper Offense, it just feels like you're match up fishing a bit and hindered by the lack of Z move allowing Volcarona to get on a roll and sweep quickly. Teams from the Charity tournament like this just seem less that optimal to me, as they remove Volcarona's ability to retreat and fight another day. With the influx of bulky Teleport users and slow VoltTurners like AV Magearna this generation I want to see some really fat balance type teams utilizing Volcarona. Now that Volcarona can be brought into the game more often I want to see Volcarona clicking raw Psychic or Fire Blast more often. While there will still be some mons that eat up hits from Volcarona all day (Chansey), there are other Pokemon like Alolan Marowak, Rotom-Heat lacking Pain Split, and even mons like Scarf Keldeo that can be put in a pinch if they keep getting brought into some chip damage before Volcarona is switched out freely, waiting to come in and attack again/set up later. You can also fish for some hax vs threats like Toxapex hoping for a SpDef drop or eventual crit with Psychic putting the Toxapex in a tough spot. Based on playing the meta for a few days and looking at teams, this just feels like the best way to utilize Volcarona at this point in time, instead of coming in and clicking QD straight away. Make use of those boots. Even with this in mind I don't see Volcarona being broken this generation as there are enough mons like Chansey that will keep Volcarona in check defensively forever, and offensive teams have options like Hawlucha and Drill that can revenge kill a +1 Volcarona with ease.
In short Volcarona continues to be that "on paper" mon that everyone has to think about in the builder, and come up with answers for. However, when the game actually starts if you do your due diligence prepping for it like you would every other threat in the tier it can be dealt with since it has enough checks that a good player should have a fair chance at winning.
The new mythical Pokemon of generation 8 has not disappointed to date in its brief debut. A strong combination of Close Combat + Wicked Blow has turned Urshifu into one of the tiers greatest threats instantly. It also makes better use of its ability than I initially imagined it would. At first I thought Unseen Fist would mainly benefit this Pokemon in doubles, but with the aforementioned stab combination only having a combined 16 PP Urshifu really appreciates the ability to not have PP wasted by a Clefable clicking Protect in front of it. The inability for defensive mons to click Protect vs Urshifu and the transition to Urshifu preferring an Adamant nature to break through mons like PhysDef Hippowdon make it terrifying. That said I will need to see a lot more of this thing to be convinced it's broken. With an Adamant nature Urshifu hits 293 speed making it an easy target to revenge kill for plenty of offensive mons in the tier, and 60 SpDef makes that very doable for a variety of threats. Even with access to Sucker Punch I don't see Urshifu being as amazing vs offense due to its fairly average speed. My real question is whether or not Urshifu is going to be over the edge, is how it's going to do vs really fat balance / stall, when used with something like WishPort Clefable? I have seen a lot of fatter teams so far relying on Rocks (6% on switch in), sand from something like Hippo, Spikes, and Helmet Damage to help wear down Urshifu, but how will teams hold up when Clefable keeps passing this thing Wishes (while also giving it free access to the battle field). Will fat have the tools to handle this thing, I'm not entirely sure but it's a match up that I think will be a big telltale on whether or not Urshifu is ban worthy.
Also this might just be me, but I have found sets other than Band a little underwhelming. Scarf particularly doing less damage than I really want vs a lot threats, as it starts to have plenty of 2hkos turn into 3hkos. Don't get me wrong, other options like scarf are good but Band seems to be just to good to pass up on for most teams. I did see a team in the charity tour that used Heracross + Scarf Urshifu that was solid and appreciated the speed, but I don't know how common stacking two strong fighting types like that will be. For now I see Urshifu as an amazing balance breaker with the potential to help vs offense and threaten stall, but I do agree with the idea that giving players time to adjust to this thing and figure out how to manage playing against it as fair instead of jumping to quick ban as players have already shown an ability to pivot around Urshifu effectively and/or handle it offensively.
Magearna is amazing. There really is no other way to describe it. It is incredibly versatile with several incredibly viable sets. I shared 3 teams in this thread yesterday, and they all used a different Magearna set (AV, Scarf, Shift Gear). Magearna similarly to Volcarona was hit hard by the loss of Z-moves as offensive sets really appreciated the nuke to get by some defensive checks. That said Magearna did get some new toys to help with that loss. The first being Stored Power that makes use of the 3 boosts from Shift Gear, and loves a Calm Mind giving it +1 Spa and another 40 base power. While Stored Power is a positive, its synergy with Fleur Cannon is not amazing. Without Fairium Z to protect Magearna from the -2 Spa drop Magearna has been relying on Draining Kiss for fairy stab. The loss in power kind of sucks, but the ability to heal helps make up for that. Additionally Magearna gained Trick this generation which helps Scarf and Specs sets cripple walls like Chansey that they'd otherwise have to Volt Switch out against. New options aside Magearna is the same threat it always has been, with a variety of options and great consistency.
Earlier in the thread Finch made a key point that most Magearna switch ins have the ability to switch into most sets. While there are obviously some cases where Magearna can smack a good switch in, like Specs Fleur Cannon doing just over half to Rotom-H, the general idea is true. With this in mind I think WCOP will be a great testing ground for Magearna. I'm assuming most people will bring teams with Magearna answers, so whether or not those checks hold up or it becomes a contest to see who can set up Magearna first will be figured out quickly. The charity tour gave us a little taste, and Magearna had fairly average numbers. While leading the way with 45% usage, it only won 51% of its match ups (some of that due to Magearna vs Magearna match ups). Overall Magearna is a really solid pick in the current metagame, but it hasn't shown me enough to believe it's so spectacularly strong that it needs immediate action.
That's all I've got on these three for now. At the end of the day I support the decision by the council to not quick ban anything. While all three have great potential in the SS OU metagame, I think they fall into the category of clearly not strong enough to warrant any immediate action, but deserving of a close eye and discussion as World Cup progresses.
Volcarona received a lot of hype leading up to the DLC, as Heavy Duty Boots were supposed to turn Volcarona into a truly amazing force as it no longer demanded such a high level of team support to function. That said I think a lot of people were low balling how much Volcarona would miss the option of running a Z move allowing it to break past some would be check. I think the exchange of nuke for hazard immunity is troublesome for Volcarona when it comes to just coming into the game, clicking Quiver Dance, and proceeding to sweep. However, Volcarona still has a chance to break past a good chunk of its checks with a little bit of patience. I'll start by saying that I'm not currently the biggest fan of Volcarona on Hyper Offense, it just feels like you're match up fishing a bit and hindered by the lack of Z move allowing Volcarona to get on a roll and sweep quickly. Teams from the Charity tournament like this just seem less that optimal to me, as they remove Volcarona's ability to retreat and fight another day. With the influx of bulky Teleport users and slow VoltTurners like AV Magearna this generation I want to see some really fat balance type teams utilizing Volcarona. Now that Volcarona can be brought into the game more often I want to see Volcarona clicking raw Psychic or Fire Blast more often. While there will still be some mons that eat up hits from Volcarona all day (Chansey), there are other Pokemon like Alolan Marowak, Rotom-Heat lacking Pain Split, and even mons like Scarf Keldeo that can be put in a pinch if they keep getting brought into some chip damage before Volcarona is switched out freely, waiting to come in and attack again/set up later. You can also fish for some hax vs threats like Toxapex hoping for a SpDef drop or eventual crit with Psychic putting the Toxapex in a tough spot. Based on playing the meta for a few days and looking at teams, this just feels like the best way to utilize Volcarona at this point in time, instead of coming in and clicking QD straight away. Make use of those boots. Even with this in mind I don't see Volcarona being broken this generation as there are enough mons like Chansey that will keep Volcarona in check defensively forever, and offensive teams have options like Hawlucha and Drill that can revenge kill a +1 Volcarona with ease.
In short Volcarona continues to be that "on paper" mon that everyone has to think about in the builder, and come up with answers for. However, when the game actually starts if you do your due diligence prepping for it like you would every other threat in the tier it can be dealt with since it has enough checks that a good player should have a fair chance at winning.
The new mythical Pokemon of generation 8 has not disappointed to date in its brief debut. A strong combination of Close Combat + Wicked Blow has turned Urshifu into one of the tiers greatest threats instantly. It also makes better use of its ability than I initially imagined it would. At first I thought Unseen Fist would mainly benefit this Pokemon in doubles, but with the aforementioned stab combination only having a combined 16 PP Urshifu really appreciates the ability to not have PP wasted by a Clefable clicking Protect in front of it. The inability for defensive mons to click Protect vs Urshifu and the transition to Urshifu preferring an Adamant nature to break through mons like PhysDef Hippowdon make it terrifying. That said I will need to see a lot more of this thing to be convinced it's broken. With an Adamant nature Urshifu hits 293 speed making it an easy target to revenge kill for plenty of offensive mons in the tier, and 60 SpDef makes that very doable for a variety of threats. Even with access to Sucker Punch I don't see Urshifu being as amazing vs offense due to its fairly average speed. My real question is whether or not Urshifu is going to be over the edge, is how it's going to do vs really fat balance / stall, when used with something like WishPort Clefable? I have seen a lot of fatter teams so far relying on Rocks (6% on switch in), sand from something like Hippo, Spikes, and Helmet Damage to help wear down Urshifu, but how will teams hold up when Clefable keeps passing this thing Wishes (while also giving it free access to the battle field). Will fat have the tools to handle this thing, I'm not entirely sure but it's a match up that I think will be a big telltale on whether or not Urshifu is ban worthy.
Also this might just be me, but I have found sets other than Band a little underwhelming. Scarf particularly doing less damage than I really want vs a lot threats, as it starts to have plenty of 2hkos turn into 3hkos. Don't get me wrong, other options like scarf are good but Band seems to be just to good to pass up on for most teams. I did see a team in the charity tour that used Heracross + Scarf Urshifu that was solid and appreciated the speed, but I don't know how common stacking two strong fighting types like that will be. For now I see Urshifu as an amazing balance breaker with the potential to help vs offense and threaten stall, but I do agree with the idea that giving players time to adjust to this thing and figure out how to manage playing against it as fair instead of jumping to quick ban as players have already shown an ability to pivot around Urshifu effectively and/or handle it offensively.
Magearna is amazing. There really is no other way to describe it. It is incredibly versatile with several incredibly viable sets. I shared 3 teams in this thread yesterday, and they all used a different Magearna set (AV, Scarf, Shift Gear). Magearna similarly to Volcarona was hit hard by the loss of Z-moves as offensive sets really appreciated the nuke to get by some defensive checks. That said Magearna did get some new toys to help with that loss. The first being Stored Power that makes use of the 3 boosts from Shift Gear, and loves a Calm Mind giving it +1 Spa and another 40 base power. While Stored Power is a positive, its synergy with Fleur Cannon is not amazing. Without Fairium Z to protect Magearna from the -2 Spa drop Magearna has been relying on Draining Kiss for fairy stab. The loss in power kind of sucks, but the ability to heal helps make up for that. Additionally Magearna gained Trick this generation which helps Scarf and Specs sets cripple walls like Chansey that they'd otherwise have to Volt Switch out against. New options aside Magearna is the same threat it always has been, with a variety of options and great consistency.
Earlier in the thread Finch made a key point that most Magearna switch ins have the ability to switch into most sets. While there are obviously some cases where Magearna can smack a good switch in, like Specs Fleur Cannon doing just over half to Rotom-H, the general idea is true. With this in mind I think WCOP will be a great testing ground for Magearna. I'm assuming most people will bring teams with Magearna answers, so whether or not those checks hold up or it becomes a contest to see who can set up Magearna first will be figured out quickly. The charity tour gave us a little taste, and Magearna had fairly average numbers. While leading the way with 45% usage, it only won 51% of its match ups (some of that due to Magearna vs Magearna match ups). Overall Magearna is a really solid pick in the current metagame, but it hasn't shown me enough to believe it's so spectacularly strong that it needs immediate action.
That's all I've got on these three for now. At the end of the day I support the decision by the council to not quick ban anything. While all three have great potential in the SS OU metagame, I think they fall into the category of clearly not strong enough to warrant any immediate action, but deserving of a close eye and discussion as World Cup progresses.
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Broadly agree with the sentiment that quick banning is not needed right now, but at the same time it's still early and who knows what sets or team archetypes will come around! At least the meta isn't as stale as it was before, which is definitely a nice thing.
also this is pretty solid proof IMO that Z-moves tend to make OU/lots of mons more unhealthy and we're better off without em
also this is pretty solid proof IMO that Z-moves tend to make OU/lots of mons more unhealthy and we're better off without em
With regards to the preliminary OU VR/OU Set Compendium threads, I feel like it's a great start but I still feel as though there are a handful of sets and mons that deserve some honorable mentions here and there:
For one, I think Krookodile's suicide lead set should get a nod:
Krookodile @ Focus Sash
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Bulldoze
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off
I've been using this on a few of my HO teams and it tends to largely accomplish the same goals as Lead Terrakion and Lead Excadrill, but with some extra support over extra firepower courtesy of its Prankster Taunt immunity, its access to a strong Knock Off, and Intimidate to help artificially increase the bulk of a setup sweeper after Krook dies. Krookodile ain't quite as good as Drill or Terrakion as a whole but this set is definitely at the level of each mon's corresponding Suicide Lead set.
I think setup variants of Kommo-o (Sub+Drum, DD, or Clanger) should also get a mention here; they definitely greatly benefit from how incredibly strong Screens HO squads tend to be right now.
Similarly, I feel that Scarf Trick Magearna has a legitimate niche in this tier (moreso than Toxic Orb+Trick, although that is also a fascinating set) because of its crucial 376 Speed, which barely outpaces Alakazam (who is one of the tier's biggest threats) and can potentially cripple it for good.
I also think a Stealth Rock Alolan Marowak set deserves some mention; it still has a crazy amount of immediate breaking power and can force switches easily enough to set its Rocks up for similar reasons, although in my opinion SD is great all the same.
As for unlisted mons I think deserve to be listed, I can only name a couple:
Pincurchin/Alolan Raichu; I assure you the Blunder video isn't what made me believe this core was good. Pincurchin is admittedly a bit on the shitty side on its own, but it enables a colossal threat in Alolan Raichu, who under Electric Terrain is an astronomical threat capable of OHKOing the vast majority of the metagame after a boost and OHKOing much of it before one.
Indeedee-M; another one of those wack Terrain setters. Unlike Pincurchin, though, this one actually has some teeth and can hold its own viably well courtesy of Psychic Terrain boosted Expanding Force. It can also cripple would-be switchins with Trick. It also acts as powerful support for Alakazam, who I consider to be pretty damn strong as is.
For one, I think Krookodile's suicide lead set should get a nod:
Krookodile @ Focus Sash
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Bulldoze
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off
I've been using this on a few of my HO teams and it tends to largely accomplish the same goals as Lead Terrakion and Lead Excadrill, but with some extra support over extra firepower courtesy of its Prankster Taunt immunity, its access to a strong Knock Off, and Intimidate to help artificially increase the bulk of a setup sweeper after Krook dies. Krookodile ain't quite as good as Drill or Terrakion as a whole but this set is definitely at the level of each mon's corresponding Suicide Lead set.
I think setup variants of Kommo-o (Sub+Drum, DD, or Clanger) should also get a mention here; they definitely greatly benefit from how incredibly strong Screens HO squads tend to be right now.
Similarly, I feel that Scarf Trick Magearna has a legitimate niche in this tier (moreso than Toxic Orb+Trick, although that is also a fascinating set) because of its crucial 376 Speed, which barely outpaces Alakazam (who is one of the tier's biggest threats) and can potentially cripple it for good.
I also think a Stealth Rock Alolan Marowak set deserves some mention; it still has a crazy amount of immediate breaking power and can force switches easily enough to set its Rocks up for similar reasons, although in my opinion SD is great all the same.
As for unlisted mons I think deserve to be listed, I can only name a couple:
Pincurchin/Alolan Raichu; I assure you the Blunder video isn't what made me believe this core was good. Pincurchin is admittedly a bit on the shitty side on its own, but it enables a colossal threat in Alolan Raichu, who under Electric Terrain is an astronomical threat capable of OHKOing the vast majority of the metagame after a boost and OHKOing much of it before one.
Indeedee-M; another one of those wack Terrain setters. Unlike Pincurchin, though, this one actually has some teeth and can hold its own viably well courtesy of Psychic Terrain boosted Expanding Force. It can also cripple would-be switchins with Trick. It also acts as powerful support for Alakazam, who I consider to be pretty damn strong as is.
I agree with your thoughts about the mons but I have just a little nitpick, Urshifu it's not a mythical, it's a legendary.
The new mythical Pokemon of generation 8...
https://swordshield.pokemon.com/en-us/expansionpass/pokemon/urshifu/
Also the meta is going bonkers right now, I am seeing all sorts of stuff, like Item-less Slow to check A-Marowak, G-Weezing going from meme to a legit pick to not get mauled By SS-Urshifu, Mandi taking Corvi's spot as the top bulk bird. The meta is pretty interesting right now.
I was looking around earlier for other potential defensive checks for the most common Urshifu sets (Band & BU) and honestly the pickings are slim. Dark/Fighting coverage is unprecedented on a mon as solid as this and what's more if you add Iron Head/Poison Jab into the mix you are left with exactly 0 mons that can wall it (Toxicroak doesn't count lol). As many others have correctly surmised counterplay to this mon seems to be relegated to initially scouting for Band and then attempting to pivot around it, ideally applying passive pressure through Rocky Helmet or a Spike or two, only to eventually revenge kill it. I'm sure we're aware of the challenges this poses, the parallels with breakers like this that are versatile enough to have 2 viable sets are apparent.
Even when you can find room for a more niche mon to more reliably check it, like in the case of Weezing-Galar as you mentioned; you're technically still at risk of a 2HKO from Banded Iron Head lest you run Protect (Not as awkward as one might envisage to be fair). You can see this pattern emerge with the majority of checks that can be teched to defeat it; accounting for coverage they can only ever hope to check in a neutral gamestate which leaves you at the mercy of getting a series of predictions correctly that constitute entirely reactive play. The opportunity cost of running this mon is just incredibly low right now and it's compounded by the increased distribution of both moves & mons that can provide free momentum. I'm sure the more experienced players can elucidate specifics of constraints.
That being said there are a couple more /meme/ tier picks that can somewhat consistently switch into Urshifu-SS but they all tend to converge around the same kind of utility that Weezing provides. I scoured quite a few mons (even going so far as to unironically check if there were viable Battle/Shell Armor mons; there aren't) and honestly there's only one that hasn't been mentioned in the thread so far, as other users have noted such as Comfey. I believe that Heracross, Grimmsnarl and Hawlucha all require further exploration personally, but it's actually the rather obvious Silvally-Fairy I wanted to bring up.
Silvally-Fairy @ Fairy Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe
Impish Nature
- Multi-Attack
- Defog
- Flamethrower/Thunder Wave/Toxic
- U-turn/Parting Shot
This is essentially the /standard/ UU Defog set just with a physically defensive spread. There's a fair amount of room to play around with the investments here if one wishes to hit different benchmarks; you're always 2HKO'd by Poison Jab/Iron Head so you're really just trying to avoid 2HKOs from Wicked Blow & CC at +1 after Rocks/Spike. There's a variety of ways to do this, but the simplest one is just 252 HP/48 Def or 252 HP with Bold.
+1 252 Atk Urshifu-Gmax Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Silvally-Fairy on a critical hit: 145-171 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Multi-Attack is strong enough without investment to always OHKO offensive BU after SR; however 48 Atk EVs with Adamant will guaranteed OHKO the 252 HP BU Urshifu.
0 Atk Silvally-Fairy Multi-Attack vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Gmax: 336-396 (98.5 - 116.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
48+ Atk Silvally-Fairy Multi-Attack vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Gmax: 384-456 (95 - 112.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
56 Spe hits the magic 240 number; one could go higher to creep (tying with Timid Magnezone is oof), there's likely arguments for other totals.
Naturally, the Poison Jab/Iron Head issue still stands with Silvally as it does with other wouldbe checks so one would have to rely on another mon to Pivot but that's the method utilized currently anyhow. However, none of this answers the question of why Silvally over Weezing when they share to much utility and honestly I'm not sure there is one since Neutralizing Gas is such high value due to it's unique nature, but there are a couple of traits Silvally has going for it.
The biggest thing is probably that Silvally is the only actual mon that exists right now who circumvents the Trick & Knock Off gambit; I'm unsure of whether Memories & RKS System interact differently with Poltergeist also but that's something for mechanics research. Another big benefit that can't be underestimated is the fact that Weezing is usually a pretty big momentum sink if it's not directly countering one of it's targets given that it doesn't have many drawback free plays due to most of it's utility moves being poor in neutral gamestates. Silvally has Parting Shot/U-Turn and given the renewed focus on the strength of pivoting moves that should not be underestimated, as having the opportunity to play around switch ins has a higher value when utilizing less viable mons to cover specific threats. Something else that shouldn't be overlooked is that Multi-Attack is comparably stronger STAB without investment, and that even with Jolly/Adamant, Silvally hits all the same benchmarks with Flamethrower as Weezing would to my knowledge, as it hits 203 compared to Weezing's 206. Finally, the reality is that generally Silvally just has significantly better stat distribution than Weezing which in addition to the aforementioned point about damage output across the spectrum also means that they have functionally equivalent Physical Bulk (Weezings is better due to Sludge Recovery) with the same investment but Silvally has substantially more potential for taking special hits that turns a lot of 2HKOs on Weezing into 3HKOs on Silvally.
I know everyone is hyped for the big players (Urshifu/Magearna/Volcarona), but Yuno (Rekeri) in the discord pointed out that Exploud actually has some use this generation, so I gave it a shot.
Here's the team I used - played about 15 games and lost two or three, once to an extremely well played rain team (seriously the dude was in my head the whole match) and once to a scarf darkshifu that I probably should have known from the calcs, the last I cannot recall - I think I did a stupid, though.
Essentially it's a special breaker that just clicks boomburst, and maybe fire/focus blast if you're feeling fancy and want to hit mag/aegi harder.
Is it good? Not really. It's probably a C-tier if I'm being generous. Can it do stuff? Absolutely. Scrappy specs boomburst is difficult for many meta teams to answer in combination with Darkshifu.
Here's the team I used - played about 15 games and lost two or three, once to an extremely well played rain team (seriously the dude was in my head the whole match) and once to a scarf darkshifu that I probably should have known from the calcs, the last I cannot recall - I think I did a stupid, though.
Exploud is here to click boomburst. That's it. 2HKOs most of the meta after rocks, barring Mag and Chansey.
Chansey is one of the two things that can consistently come into Exploud with rocks up, and Darkshifu can get a free switch in there. If Chansey chose to heal, Darkshifu is free. If Chansey didn't heal, it's in range of 2 boombursts + rocks.
Corviknight is a defogger/pivot that can be a secondary check to Urshifu-dark (pressure makes it burn through 4 PP trying to kill it, and it has very little to start with). That's it - you could probably just swap in any defogger here, because this didn't work as well as I thought it would.
Tangrowth is here to sponge physical hits and sleep/knock stuff. It has been MVP in basically every game it played. Sludge bomb is to hurt other Tangs. After one, they don't switch into Darkshifu and it's honestly a pretty effective lure.
Chansey is here because of AV Magearna + general special wall. Having rocks on it sucks, and I wish I could figure out how to slot them somewhere else without making the team crazy weak to other stuff.
Hydregion is speed control and a late game cleaner - if Exploud did its job, it can do stuff.
Chansey is one of the two things that can consistently come into Exploud with rocks up, and Darkshifu can get a free switch in there. If Chansey chose to heal, Darkshifu is free. If Chansey didn't heal, it's in range of 2 boombursts + rocks.
Corviknight is a defogger/pivot that can be a secondary check to Urshifu-dark (pressure makes it burn through 4 PP trying to kill it, and it has very little to start with). That's it - you could probably just swap in any defogger here, because this didn't work as well as I thought it would.
Tangrowth is here to sponge physical hits and sleep/knock stuff. It has been MVP in basically every game it played. Sludge bomb is to hurt other Tangs. After one, they don't switch into Darkshifu and it's honestly a pretty effective lure.
Chansey is here because of AV Magearna + general special wall. Having rocks on it sucks, and I wish I could figure out how to slot them somewhere else without making the team crazy weak to other stuff.
Hydregion is speed control and a late game cleaner - if Exploud did its job, it can do stuff.
Essentially it's a special breaker that just clicks boomburst, and maybe fire/focus blast if you're feeling fancy and want to hit mag/aegi harder.
Is it good? Not really. It's probably a C-tier if I'm being generous. Can it do stuff? Absolutely. Scrappy specs boomburst is difficult for many meta teams to answer in combination with Darkshifu.
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With both Urshifu having Unseen Fist, Urshifu has potential for a Metronome set, as Unseen Fist removes the problem of protect for Metronome.
With Base 100 HP, Urshifu barely is able to have a substitute with 101 HP, which allows it to always have at least 1 HP on Substitute when a Chansey uses Seismic Toss. This is also enough HP and bulk for Urshifu-SS to keep its Substitute up against a Toxapex Scald.
Between the 2, I feel like Rapid-Strike will have a better time with this type of set thanks to its better defensive typing and there being no restrictions on Choice Band means it can spam Ferrothorn and Tangrowth with Drain Punch, but Single-Strike still has Crunch for Toxapex and Amoongus. Crunch also has much more PP than Liquidation as well.
Instead of having Close Combat,Wicked Blow, or Surge Strike, these sets utilize Drain Punch, Crunch, and Liquidation/Waterfall.
Drain Punch is Urshifu’s means of recovery. Without Leftovers or moves like Roost, Urshifu really needs Drain Punch to keep itself healthy, especially if you don’t have Wish support.
Crunch has 3 times the PP of Wicked Blow, and it also has a chance to drop the Def of the target. Seeing as you’ll be spamming your moves, it’s pretty important to have enough PP on your moves, especially with Pokemon like Corviknight that suck away all that PP.
Likewise, Liquidation has twice as much PP as Surge Strike, has a higher BP, doesn’t activate Iron Bards 3 times, and it also has a solid chance of dropping Def too, which adds to the next hit if the opponent chooses to switch in.
Waterfall is an alternative as it has 8 more PP than Liquidation and has a Flinch chance instead.
Bulk Up not only helps speed up the process of breaking walls, but against walls that use physical attacks, it can help with keeping your Substitute Healthy.
As far as teammates go, Clefable is one of the best teammates since it can Wish and Teleport, giving Urshifu better access to recovery.
Any Pokemon that does well at removing Dragapult is great too, as no one wants to be Burned while having a Substitute is up, and Dragapult resists Rapid-Strike’s STABs.
Speed control can compliment Urshifu since it’s generally pretty slow, especially when using these sets.
Urshifu @ Metronome
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Crunch
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike @ Metronome
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Liquidation/Waterfall
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Crunch
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike @ Metronome
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Liquidation/Waterfall
With Base 100 HP, Urshifu barely is able to have a substitute with 101 HP, which allows it to always have at least 1 HP on Substitute when a Chansey uses Seismic Toss. This is also enough HP and bulk for Urshifu-SS to keep its Substitute up against a Toxapex Scald.
Between the 2, I feel like Rapid-Strike will have a better time with this type of set thanks to its better defensive typing and there being no restrictions on Choice Band means it can spam Ferrothorn and Tangrowth with Drain Punch, but Single-Strike still has Crunch for Toxapex and Amoongus. Crunch also has much more PP than Liquidation as well.
Instead of having Close Combat,Wicked Blow, or Surge Strike, these sets utilize Drain Punch, Crunch, and Liquidation/Waterfall.
Drain Punch is Urshifu’s means of recovery. Without Leftovers or moves like Roost, Urshifu really needs Drain Punch to keep itself healthy, especially if you don’t have Wish support.
Crunch has 3 times the PP of Wicked Blow, and it also has a chance to drop the Def of the target. Seeing as you’ll be spamming your moves, it’s pretty important to have enough PP on your moves, especially with Pokemon like Corviknight that suck away all that PP.
Likewise, Liquidation has twice as much PP as Surge Strike, has a higher BP, doesn’t activate Iron Bards 3 times, and it also has a solid chance of dropping Def too, which adds to the next hit if the opponent chooses to switch in.
Waterfall is an alternative as it has 8 more PP than Liquidation and has a Flinch chance instead.
Bulk Up not only helps speed up the process of breaking walls, but against walls that use physical attacks, it can help with keeping your Substitute Healthy.
As far as teammates go, Clefable is one of the best teammates since it can Wish and Teleport, giving Urshifu better access to recovery.
Any Pokemon that does well at removing Dragapult is great too, as no one wants to be Burned while having a Substitute is up, and Dragapult resists Rapid-Strike’s STABs.
Speed control can compliment Urshifu since it’s generally pretty slow, especially when using these sets.
Poltergeist seems cool. It seems like a great move for Gengar.
Also, Alolan Raichu just got a big buff. Life Orb + Rising Voltage+ FBlast+ Grass Knot + Psychic/Psyshock is a great sweeper if you opponent isn't prepared/has no counter, OHKOing anything that doesn't resist/is a wall, and outspeeding Choice Scarf Zeraora (although dies to Grassy Glide from Rilla and Sucker Punch).
Also, Alolan Raichu just got a big buff. Life Orb + Rising Voltage+ FBlast+ Grass Knot + Psychic/Psyshock is a great sweeper if you opponent isn't prepared/has no counter, OHKOing anything that doesn't resist/is a wall, and outspeeding Choice Scarf Zeraora (although dies to Grassy Glide from Rilla and Sucker Punch).
What exactly is Gengar going to use Poltergeist for?
It’s physical and in case you were wonder, don’t remove the item like Knock Off.
I don't think Magearna is remotely broken and I personally find Urshifu manageable for the time being; Hippo+Dark resist usually gives you some breathing room to pivot, even if margins are thin. Walmart Pheromosa™ is honestly more than a little constraining, since a lot of its checks feel specific to certain types of builds or just awkward to fit on teams at times. However, Marowak-A, Cinderace and Rotom-H are usually enough to handle it with careful play, and if you want a more passive but hard counter, there's plenty of them to choose.
As a side note, one really cool tec that I think has a small niche in the metagame right now is Psych Up. In lieu of Magearna getting Heart Swap, I think Psych Up is a really cool option for teams that struggle with Magearna and/or other bulky CM setup mons (Clef, Slowbro, Necrozma, SP/Press Mew, Reun, etc.) to help keep them in check. The move has a pretty wide distribution, but I think the most viable users of the move would likely be Reuniclus
, Jirachi 
, Mew 
or Unaware Clef 
, as each can come in on all of the aforementioned pokemon, Psych Up to copy the stat increases, and either win or at worst stall out the sweeper in a one on one. I didn't go through and calc for every user but just for some perspective, Magearna can't kill something like Reuniclus even with 13 accumulated boosts, and something like Clef/Mew can run reverse Stored Power sets of their own, but with reliable recovery.
+3 0 SpA Magearna Stored Power (280 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 359-423 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It's not necessary to use this to beat these mons and it's definitely a little fringe, but in a meta infested with setup sweepers I think it's worth trying.
As a side note, one really cool tec that I think has a small niche in the metagame right now is Psych Up. In lieu of Magearna getting Heart Swap, I think Psych Up is a really cool option for teams that struggle with Magearna and/or other bulky CM setup mons (Clef, Slowbro, Necrozma, SP/Press Mew, Reun, etc.) to help keep them in check. The move has a pretty wide distribution, but I think the most viable users of the move would likely be Reuniclus
, Jirachi , Mew or Unaware Clef , as each can come in on all of the aforementioned pokemon, Psych Up to copy the stat increases, and either win or at worst stall out the sweeper in a one on one. I didn't go through and calc for every user but just for some perspective, Magearna can't kill something like Reuniclus even with 13 accumulated boosts, and something like Clef/Mew can run reverse Stored Power sets of their own, but with reliable recovery.+3 0 SpA Magearna Stored Power (280 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 359-423 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It's not necessary to use this to beat these mons and it's definitely a little fringe, but in a meta infested with setup sweepers I think it's worth trying.
now brother I hate to do it to you but listen
Dual wingbeat scizor = broke
sand tomb scizor = woke
Scizor @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Sand Tomb
- Bug Bite / Quick Attack / Knock Off / Superpower / whatever
The given spread outpaces max ada ttar and by extension the crowded base 60 tier, while hp lets you hit 289 HP, a Life Orb number.
So what does sand tomb do? Well, its technician boosted ground coverage, and on scizor, this goes a long way. It hits up the following crucial targets all in just one slot:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Sand Tomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 174-205 (57.2 - 67.4%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Sand Tomb vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 224-265 (73.6 - 87.1%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Sand Tomb vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 299-354 (92.5 - 109.5%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Sand Tomb vs. 108 HP / 252+ Def Magnezone: 426-504 (138.3 - 163.6%) (body press set)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Sand Tomb vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aegislash-Shield: 242-286 (92.7 - 109.5%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Sand Tomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 205-244 (68.1 - 81%) (BP kills after this)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Sand Tomb vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 289-341 (79.6 - 93.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Sand Tomb vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 224-265 (73.6 - 87.1%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Sand Tomb vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 299-354 (92.5 - 109.5%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Sand Tomb vs. 108 HP / 252+ Def Magnezone: 426-504 (138.3 - 163.6%) (body press set)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Sand Tomb vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aegislash-Shield: 242-286 (92.7 - 109.5%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Sand Tomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 205-244 (68.1 - 81%) (BP kills after this)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Sand Tomb vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 289-341 (79.6 - 93.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
It's kind of a weird midground between knock off and superpower, in that it hits some steels that superpower gets while also hitting some fires/poisons that knock off is there for, with the added bonus of really screwing pex, along with the chip damage+no fear of doubling that comes with using trapping moves. Some of sand tomb's targets are hit harder by other coverage, tomb is far from optimal. But it's absolutely a viable option scizor now has.
In general a ton of physical walls like mandibuzz, hippo, slowbro, and tangrowth just bend over to +2 bug bite and a lot of offense teams are unprepared for +2 BP. This mon isn't gonna be a defensive or supportive juggernaut, but SD LO is in a better place than ppl think, and fits well into some HO teams. Give it a whirl, and here's some replays of it putting in work
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1137542089
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1137377300 (turn 16)
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Hello Pokemon experts
I noticed no one really talking about Mienshao. I ran into it on the Showdown ladder and got absolutely shafted by it. It has pretty good base speed and good attack power. To be fair I am not that good of a player so i could be delusional(1300-1500), but I was wondering whats some of you thought about this Mon. I played a few games of it and it felt sooo good. Its only bad match up seemed to be Pex, but pex is pex and pex and so fuck pex lol. This is what i tried:
Mienshao @ choice scarf/band
Ability: Reckless
Evs: 252 Atk / 252 Speed
Nature: Adamant/ Jolly
Moves:
-High Jump Kick
-Poison Jab
-Stone Edge/Close combat
-U-Turn
Here are some calcs:
Adamant w/ band vs common OU walls
252+ Atk Choice Band Mienshao Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 360-424 (91.3 - 107.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 262-309 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Magearna: 267-315 (73.5 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 361-426 (119.9 - 141.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (added another mag set bec theres so many diff mags)
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 283-334 (70.7 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 390-460 (91.9 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 352-415 (85 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
I know there are many better more reliable fighting options (nothing worse than the feeling of getting shafted by HJK), but I really found this Pokemon to be cool since it first came out. If anyone tried and found a cool team with Mr. Shao, please lmk so i can steal.
I'm really liking this new metagame. It's allowed me to have a lot more fun and inspiration for teambuilding in contrast to the restrictive nature it had last month. Here are some mons that I have enjoyed using recently:
Magearna is by far one of the best mons in the metagame rn. CM+Pain Split is able to easily break Pex and other stall teams and has a typing favorable to the metagame. It has a dozen different viable sets that'll force your opponent to scout for which one you're using, and has considerable bulk on top of having ridiculous spatk and a wide movepool.
Easily one of the best breakers yet. Azumarill is a sure counter to Volc with Aqua Jet. Belly Drum+Sitrus Berry is a deadly set that will wipe the floor on anyone unprepared, and AV is a much bulkier set that allows Azu to be a great switch in to mons like Volc, Mag, Sub+CM Prim, and Hydrei.
Although single strike is better than rapid strike, both Urshifu forms are solid. Dark Urshifu has no reliable switch ins and Watershifu is able to hit Mag better, which I find useful. Its ability is too unfair imo, can't tell you the amount of times people used Bunker on it thinking that will do them any good. It also prevents them from scouting, which will benefit you way more than it will for them. Guaranteed crits from Wicked Blow and Surging Strikes make it a quintessential balance breaker. Imo Urshifu is a top tier mon, just like Mag and Clef are. This mon hasn't let me down yet, despite the amount of times I've used it.
Magnezone's been great as a steel trapper and a heavy hitter. Is able to easily trap Bisharp due to its high physical bulk and defeats Clef and Corv in one package. Specs also hits extra hard. Love its physical bulk too.
My go-to Volc check. Accelerock's priority outspeeds Volc no matter what how fast it becomes through Quiver Dance. It's also a 4x weakness, so it's a guaranteed OHKO. Also has a very good speed tier, I also prefer Dusk > Midday Lycanroc because of its access to Tough Claws, making it hit harder with Accelerock.
Finally, Porygon-Z. This thing is a guaranteed nuke of a mon, sporting Adaptability+Tri Attack/Hyper Beam. I found myself never using Trick since I love how hard specs can hit. Hyper Beam's great at dealing the finishing blow to the last mon (unless they're ghost, which in that case I go for Shadow Ball). Not too many good switch ins to it. Overall, a solid mon that I think deserves more usage.
Magearna is by far one of the best mons in the metagame rn. CM+Pain Split is able to easily break Pex and other stall teams and has a typing favorable to the metagame. It has a dozen different viable sets that'll force your opponent to scout for which one you're using, and has considerable bulk on top of having ridiculous spatk and a wide movepool.
Easily one of the best breakers yet. Azumarill is a sure counter to Volc with Aqua Jet. Belly Drum+Sitrus Berry is a deadly set that will wipe the floor on anyone unprepared, and AV is a much bulkier set that allows Azu to be a great switch in to mons like Volc, Mag, Sub+CM Prim, and Hydrei.
Although single strike is better than rapid strike, both Urshifu forms are solid. Dark Urshifu has no reliable switch ins and Watershifu is able to hit Mag better, which I find useful. Its ability is too unfair imo, can't tell you the amount of times people used Bunker on it thinking that will do them any good. It also prevents them from scouting, which will benefit you way more than it will for them. Guaranteed crits from Wicked Blow and Surging Strikes make it a quintessential balance breaker. Imo Urshifu is a top tier mon, just like Mag and Clef are. This mon hasn't let me down yet, despite the amount of times I've used it.
Magnezone's been great as a steel trapper and a heavy hitter. Is able to easily trap Bisharp due to its high physical bulk and defeats Clef and Corv in one package. Specs also hits extra hard. Love its physical bulk too.
My go-to Volc check. Accelerock's priority outspeeds Volc no matter what how fast it becomes through Quiver Dance. It's also a 4x weakness, so it's a guaranteed OHKO. Also has a very good speed tier, I also prefer Dusk > Midday Lycanroc because of its access to Tough Claws, making it hit harder with Accelerock.
Finally, Porygon-Z. This thing is a guaranteed nuke of a mon, sporting Adaptability+Tri Attack/Hyper Beam. I found myself never using Trick since I love how hard specs can hit. Hyper Beam's great at dealing the finishing blow to the last mon (unless they're ghost, which in that case I go for Shadow Ball). Not too many good switch ins to it. Overall, a solid mon that I think deserves more usage.
I legit thought sand tomb was special lul. this is amazing, thank you for this enlightenment Srn :0
Btw just so this isn't a one liner, Wangjaa is absolutely right about Mienshao imho, though I'd personally stick with scarf most of the time cause band tends to compete with Terrakion who is, offensively at least, an all around superior choice. However, scarf Mienshao is like my favorite scarfer to ever hit this teir and sports either a great deal of power with Reckless ( 252 Atk Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 141-166 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock ) or a great deal of sustain with regenerator+a stealth rock resist. The best thing about it easily though, is that Meinshao, Terrak, and Keld are the only scarfers that outpace a +1 timid volc alongside packing a rock move to remove it, which is obviously extremely good rn. https://pokepast.es/525ed352c211fe7a This is the set I tend to stick too most of the time, its nothing fancy but it gets the job done, Revenging Alakazam, Gengar, and Volc is no joke. If you want a more unique option https://pokepast.es/3b31ffa899559424 here's an SD set you should probably never use over Terrak except if you appreciate Conk's mach punch doing 60-70 instead of outright KOing
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After looking at the Role Compendium, I just wanted to mention something I've been using recently and have had a lot of success with.
Mandibuzz (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 SpD
Impish Nature
- Foul Play / Brave Bird
- Defog
- U-turn / Knock Off / Brave Bird
- Roost
Phys def Mandi is pretty useful in the current climate. It's still naturally bulky enough to deal with a lot of threats Sp.Def would, such as Volc and non-LO Zam, while maximizing its ability to deal with things like Marowak and Urshifu. The given Sp.Def allows you to always live a +2 Dazzling gleam from non-lo Zam, allowing you to U-Turn into a revenge killer or knock out a slightly weakened Zam with Foul Play/Knock Off. Taking 76% max from a +1 Volcarona Fire Blast, Mandi can do a minimum of 82% with brave bird, guaranteed living even after a max role FB and BB recoil. While this set obviously isn't as well equipped, the extra defense can be useful in some games where you get quickly worn down by opposing breakers.
Mandibuzz (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 SpD
Impish Nature
- Foul Play / Brave Bird
- Defog
- U-turn / Knock Off / Brave Bird
- Roost
Oh, you're right. Poltergeist is indeed Physical. In that case, it's great for Dhelmise and Gourgeist.
Just sharing my thoughts on the metagame with the community.
At the very beginning, I thought Volcorona & Mage were too OP but, after playing 50 or so games, I've come to the conclusion that Volc is not as hard to check as I once thought.
Volcorona Checks - Lycanrock-Dusk, Azumarill, Urishifu-Water, Crawdaunt, Haze SpDf Toxapex and bulky variants of Dragapult that run physical moves.
Volcorona Walls - Chansey, Blissey, and Unaware SpDf Clefable (esp if cosmic power).
Those are the checks & walls I found for it so far that seems to work for other players as well. A lot of these mons tend to be splashable on teams that need a Volc check; with the exception of Blissey, bulky Pult, and Crawdaunt.
The problem I have with Magearna is that it tends to be a lot tougher to defensively check or wall due to it's very colorful movepool which allows it to be very splashable on most teams. Alolan-Marowak is a shaky check to the specs set due to lack of recovery and rocks weakness. You also need to run the bone item otherwise you fail to OHKO. There's also trick that can heavily cripple A-Wak; the same thing goes for Chansey, Blissey and Volcorona (which desperately needs boots). So, trying to switch in on Mage requires a bit of scouting. The shift gear + calm mind + stored power set has fewer checks (esp if under psychic terrain). If it's running psychic seed, then it has a 68.8% chance to OHKO A-Wak after rocks. And Mage has a chance to 1v1 a Chansey switch-in if terrain is up. There's also the weakness policy set on screen teams that are hard to revenge kill. Not only that, Chansey is really the only answer that is kind of splashable on teams.
Another thing to point out is that, in practice Magearna can be paired up with another strong special attacker (like Alakazam, Hydreigon or Volcorona) to help wear down any Special Walls. Making strategies for Mage even more difficult. At the very least, it is slow, which makes easier to take it out before it can set-up or if it's the specs set. A lot of the pokemon that outspeed it & can OHKO it are splashable on teams like, CInderace and Rotom-Heat; and there's also Volcorona, Mamoswine, and Dracozolt that are less splashable but still very viable. So, I'm looking forward to see people come up with more defensive checks to Magearna, it'll definitely help me with building.
At the very beginning, I thought Volcorona & Mage were too OP but, after playing 50 or so games, I've come to the conclusion that Volc is not as hard to check as I once thought.
Volcorona Checks - Lycanrock-Dusk, Azumarill, Urishifu-Water, Crawdaunt, Haze SpDf Toxapex and bulky variants of Dragapult that run physical moves.
Volcorona Walls - Chansey, Blissey, and Unaware SpDf Clefable (esp if cosmic power).
Those are the checks & walls I found for it so far that seems to work for other players as well. A lot of these mons tend to be splashable on teams that need a Volc check; with the exception of Blissey, bulky Pult, and Crawdaunt.
The problem I have with Magearna is that it tends to be a lot tougher to defensively check or wall due to it's very colorful movepool which allows it to be very splashable on most teams. Alolan-Marowak is a shaky check to the specs set due to lack of recovery and rocks weakness. You also need to run the bone item otherwise you fail to OHKO. There's also trick that can heavily cripple A-Wak; the same thing goes for Chansey, Blissey and Volcorona (which desperately needs boots). So, trying to switch in on Mage requires a bit of scouting. The shift gear + calm mind + stored power set has fewer checks (esp if under psychic terrain). If it's running psychic seed, then it has a 68.8% chance to OHKO A-Wak after rocks. And Mage has a chance to 1v1 a Chansey switch-in if terrain is up. There's also the weakness policy set on screen teams that are hard to revenge kill. Not only that, Chansey is really the only answer that is kind of splashable on teams.
Another thing to point out is that, in practice Magearna can be paired up with another strong special attacker (like Alakazam, Hydreigon or Volcorona) to help wear down any Special Walls. Making strategies for Mage even more difficult. At the very least, it is slow, which makes easier to take it out before it can set-up or if it's the specs set. A lot of the pokemon that outspeed it & can OHKO it are splashable on teams like, CInderace and Rotom-Heat; and there's also Volcorona, Mamoswine, and Dracozolt that are less splashable but still very viable. So, I'm looking forward to see people come up with more defensive checks to Magearna, it'll definitely help me with building.
Hello people, today in the new episode of the new player trying to survive
I have been experimenting on Porygon-Z
Alkazoth´s set idea about it its the best set in my opinion (I tried Boltbeam+Tri Attack but is just bad)
Porygon-Z @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tri Attack
- Shadow Ball
- Hyper Beam
- Trick
Spikes support is really appreciated, Porygon-Z usually destroys one stall/slow mon without priority and afther that dies of just about a single light breeze, this mon is unholy outclassed by Volcarona in almost every aspect possible but the fun you get when you ruin a Magearna sweep attemp with trick its just worth it
Any opinions about this mon before it falls into the shadow realm?
I have been experimenting on Porygon-Z
Alkazoth´s set idea about it its the best set in my opinion (I tried Boltbeam+Tri Attack but is just bad)
Porygon-Z @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tri Attack
- Shadow Ball
- Hyper Beam
- Trick
Spikes support is really appreciated, Porygon-Z usually destroys one stall/slow mon without priority and afther that dies of just about a single light breeze, this mon is unholy outclassed by Volcarona in almost every aspect possible but the fun you get when you ruin a Magearna sweep attemp with trick its just worth it
Any opinions about this mon before it falls into the shadow realm?
I've been laddering for a while and I'm analysing placing of some mons at the moment.
Here is a list of some who have either gotten better or worse since the dlc.
*Better*-
Since corvknight has trapping issues, Mandibuzz is the best defogger at the moment.Moreover it naturally counters and checks newcomers like alolan wak and alakazam. Physically invested mandis can come as handy switchins to dark urshifu and alolan wak. Its viability has surely increased.
Peliper as among hasn't gotten buffed,but rain as playstyle has become better. While not as good as last gen but the addition of kingdra and flipturn barraskewda has turned it to less of a gimmick.
3 words
Specs expanding force
The move has made it much viable,it also synergies good with zam and lucha.It could be grouped with luch prior to dlc but the inclusion of expanding force and zam has only increased its viability.
I feel screens HO has gotten nothing but better with inclusion of setup sweepers such as azu,volc and mage. Magearna behind screens is just terrifying and unkillable.
*Worse*(by worse I mean they have degraded a bit)
DLC brought its biggest menace, magnezone Which sometimes forces it to run shedshell.
Other variants can try to speed creep zone but it takes a lot out of bulk.Its not just that its fellow defogger mandibuzz has better much up against dark urshifu and alolan wak, mandibuzz is able to scare out marowak while corvknight is scared of it.
Hydreigon's 4mms problem has started to become a bit of an issue. Prior to the dlc it ran draco,pulse,flash cannon on its np set. But now mage has dropped and it considers to drop draco or cannon for flamethrower. Moreover, I've used or seen only scarf hydreigon since the dlc dropped.
Conkeldurr has fallen from its grace by a bit since the dlc. It is still quite good but I feel if I want a fighting type for my team I'd mostly choose urshifu since fairies like mage and clef cannot speed creep it. Moreover,clef can't even play its protect shenanigans with urshifu. Rocky helmet stall mons like tang and slowbro can easily play around conk.
IMO it becomes useless against every stall team as all of them have chansey/blissey.
Balance players have diverted towards semi-balance which too uses the above pink blobs as they counter not just kyurem but other more terrifying special mons like volcarona. Still it can do very good against other balance teams and as good as it has been against offensive playstyles
Feel free to point if I made a mistake or you want to present your opinions.
Here is a list of some who have either gotten better or worse since the dlc.
*Better*-
Since corvknight has trapping issues, Mandibuzz is the best defogger at the moment.Moreover it naturally counters and checks newcomers like alolan wak and alakazam. Physically invested mandis can come as handy switchins to dark urshifu and alolan wak. Its viability has surely increased.
Peliper as among hasn't gotten buffed,but rain as playstyle has become better. While not as good as last gen but the addition of kingdra and flipturn barraskewda has turned it to less of a gimmick.
3 words
Specs expanding force
The move has made it much viable,it also synergies good with zam and lucha.It could be grouped with luch prior to dlc but the inclusion of expanding force and zam has only increased its viability.
I feel screens HO has gotten nothing but better with inclusion of setup sweepers such as azu,volc and mage. Magearna behind screens is just terrifying and unkillable.
*Worse*(by worse I mean they have degraded a bit)
DLC brought its biggest menace, magnezone Which sometimes forces it to run shedshell.
Other variants can try to speed creep zone but it takes a lot out of bulk.Its not just that its fellow defogger mandibuzz has better much up against dark urshifu and alolan wak, mandibuzz is able to scare out marowak while corvknight is scared of it.
Hydreigon's 4mms problem has started to become a bit of an issue. Prior to the dlc it ran draco,pulse,flash cannon on its np set. But now mage has dropped and it considers to drop draco or cannon for flamethrower. Moreover, I've used or seen only scarf hydreigon since the dlc dropped.
Conkeldurr has fallen from its grace by a bit since the dlc. It is still quite good but I feel if I want a fighting type for my team I'd mostly choose urshifu since fairies like mage and clef cannot speed creep it. Moreover,clef can't even play its protect shenanigans with urshifu. Rocky helmet stall mons like tang and slowbro can easily play around conk.
IMO it becomes useless against every stall team as all of them have chansey/blissey.
Balance players have diverted towards semi-balance which too uses the above pink blobs as they counter not just kyurem but other more terrifying special mons like volcarona. Still it can do very good against other balance teams and as good as it has been against offensive playstyles
Feel free to point if I made a mistake or you want to present your opinions.
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Interested in seeing how DDPult does in this new meta. I'm opting for a DD/Darts/FireBlast/PhantomForce set over running steel wing. Steel Wing is only to OHKO SpDef Clef, which Phantom Force hits for min 97% anyway and helps a lot more with the rest of the metagame like Mag, Azu, etc.
Correct me if I'm wrong, the only mons in the tier that live a hit from this thing at +1 with a layer of spikes up are Chansey, Hippo, Corv, Tang, Pex, Mandi, and Bulky Magearna.
Magnezone handles Corviknight, gets the necessary chip on Magearna with one hit, and hits both Mandi and Pex super effectively threatening to OHKO both. A Flash Cannon to Hippo or Tangrowth puts them in range as well, leaving just Chansey.
DDPult could make for a nice partner with Darkshifu as many of these mons will switch into it trying to take a hit and get worn down for late-game Pult in the process.
Correct me if I'm wrong, the only mons in the tier that live a hit from this thing at +1 with a layer of spikes up are Chansey, Hippo, Corv, Tang, Pex, Mandi, and Bulky Magearna.
Magnezone handles Corviknight, gets the necessary chip on Magearna with one hit, and hits both Mandi and Pex super effectively threatening to OHKO both. A Flash Cannon to Hippo or Tangrowth puts them in range as well, leaving just Chansey.
DDPult could make for a nice partner with Darkshifu as many of these mons will switch into it trying to take a hit and get worn down for late-game Pult in the process.
Two Words: Shadow Realm
The lose of z-move specialy coversion Z make a weak mon outclassed by most other breaker...
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