Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

[RufflesPro]

I have to strongly disagree on a Heatran suspect test, for several reasons:

1. No reliable recovery: For example, even if Heatran can trap Blissey, Seismic Toss wears it down significantly, so it might not be able to check another threat later on. Leftovers do help, but they are going to get Knocked Off in this metagame. Choice Specs Tapu Lele can force it on and wear it down for something like Tornadus-T to break through later on.
2. Low speed: Almost every viable offensive Pokemon outspeeds even faster variants of Heatran, and some defensive Pokemon will too, like Zapdos and some sets of Tapu Fini, so this further adds to wearing it down.
3. Typing: While Heatran gets many great specially-focused resistances, it doesn't resist very many physical types at all. Almost every physical attacker has a neutral STAB or can run supereffective coverage, like Rillaboom's Superpower and Kartana's Sacred Sword. Its three weaknesses are exploitable, with Ground-types on almost every serious team, various Pokemon it might want to wall running coverage moves like Tornadus-T, Tapu Lele, and Kyurem, and its Ground weakness being particularly exploitable by Pokemon like the Slowthings as you mentioned before.
4. You don't need niche Pokemon to beat it: Slowking is one of the best specially defensive walls at the moment, checking important threats like Tapu Lele and Tornadus-T. Although defensive Hydreigon was trash, offensive variants with Roost can still check it fine, so you're not limited to passive Pokemon. Specially defensive Garchomp is a good check to Volcarona if you have a Rock move and Zapdos. Tapu Fini is probably the game's best answer to Hex Dragapult, and does fine against Specs without Thunderbolt too.
5. It keeps numerous Pokemon healthy: How are you going to beat Volcarona consistently without Heatran to hardwall it? Is Clefable going to be uncontrollable without a consistent switchin like Heatran? Do you want to have to suspect Toxapex too? Banning Heatran would also mean losing one of the biggest deterrents to clicking Grassy Glide. Whilst it's true that a broken Pokemon can keep other broken Pokemon in check (like arguably banning Urshifu took Spectrier over the top as there was no longer that splashable, straightforward revenge killer to it), I think all these other disadvantages should balance it out.

1. It's very easy for Heatran to passively recover with Leftovers because of the all the switches it forces. There's a reason why people don't really run HDB on Heatran. It is even more so easy with Protect or Rillaboom, its second most common teammate ~30% of the time. Tornadus-T will be lucky if it can Knock off on the switch, but it needs a teammate that can switch into Heatran's Magma Storm. Heatran's new coverage that I have already went over actually also help him stay healthier, as Heavy Slam and Body Press are chunking Blissey super fast.

ALSO: Speaking of teammates, a reason to why Heatran is so good is because how good of a fucking core it forms with Landorus-T. TWO very spalashable mons that form an extremely good core and natural synergy is incredibly good. One of Lando's most common teammates is Heatran, a little over 30%. And if you disregard all the HO sash lead lando-T it can be very well be close to 50%.

2. Heatran is actually quite fast and thinking it has low speed is just thinking one dimensionally. We have seen multiple Heatran speed tiers spanning from gen to gen, including max hp / max speed Heatran with Timid, Modest, or even Calm. It absolutely can outspeed Rillaboom if it wants to run Timid. In fact ~8% of Heatran's run max speed Timid according to Pikalytics. I think it's also actually very viable since most Rillabooms assume they outspeed Heatran. I wouldn't be surprised to see more Timid Heatrans now more than ever as Bisharp is OU, as the trend with Bisharp has always been to eventually run Jolly > Adamant as the meta progresses. Tapu Fini also needs to run 192 speed to outspeed any Heatran that is not Timid, a speed benchmark a lot of people actually don't want to sacrifice for, which btw, is still outsped by Timid.

3. It is actually Heatran's very typing that makes it good to be honest. Double ground weakness is not nearly as important as it's myriad of resistances and double resistances to grass, ice, and fairy. Most of the Pokemons you mentioned (Kartana/Rillaboom/Lele/Kyurem) are in fact very commonly Choiced and Heatran does an excellent job at deterring some of their STAB usage or even straight pivoting into them.

4. How does Slowking beat it? Slowking isn't really beating Heatran 1v1. Magma Storm + Taunt, especially if Toxic or Protect, will 1v1 Slowking from experience, and even if that wasn't the case all Heatran has to do is Toxic it one time on the switch, and then next time it eats a Magma Storm it's gone really. Slowking CAN beat Heatran if it runs EQ, but in my opinion that is extremely niche. Tapu Fini is a solid Heatran counter but it is easily worn down and still loses to the rare Solar Beam + Power Herb. SpD Garchomp, as I mentioned, is a niche Pokemon that is on the rise that has its merits, but it finds its ways on teams BECAUSE it also checks Heatran on top of what it checks.

5. This is a slippery slope argument and it is extremely fallacious. It's not about what Heatran keeps at bay really, as we have literally no idea how the meta would go IF it gets banned (which btw, I'm only advocating for a suspect). But even if I entertain your argument, is Heatran really keeping Toxapex at bay? Is Heatran really the reason Clefable is not used more, despite it being already top 5 in usage? Although I do agree on your point about Volcarona, I disagree on Clef and Tox


People are so willing to suspect Zam-C, Rillaboom, Garchomp, Teleport, or even HDB (which is ridiculous btw) but for some reason just the thought of just suspecting Heatran for 2 weeks really freaks people out. I think people have gotten extremely comfortable with Heatran centered metagame and how splashable this Pokemon as it allows lazy balanced and semistall to bypass the issue of opposing fat by simply slapping a Heatran. Most people's answer to Heatran is Shed shell Toxapex, Tapu Fini, EQ Slowking (G or not), Garchomp/Hydreigon/Dragonite, or even their own Heatran + Lando-T core to deter Magma Storm and force 50/50s. ALL OF THESE, if you haven't noticed, are not true answers, aside from Rest Garchomp, which gives up a huge amount of momentum. If this was any other Pokemon people would really be freaking out about how limiting and restrictive this Pokemon is.

This is not even mentioning one of the biggest downsides of Pokemon coming in on Heatran. Yes, they might be able to momentarily tank a Magma Storm, but then what? All Heatran has to do is switch out, you can't double and now you are forced to give up momentum.

 

[PlusC]

A lot of people seem to miss that pokemon remain OU by virtue of being powerful, versatile pokemon which put in a lot of work. They tend to be unpredictable, strong and have ways around checks.

If you don't like playing with them the lower tiers are a wonderful alternative; I'm a big fan of NU and PU right now for this very reaaon. But ultimately it's going to be hard to build OU teams that flawlessly handle every threat consistently or else those threats wouldn't be OU Pokemon.

Rillaboom is a very powerful pokemon but he kind of relies on CB to be powerful. The SD set gets forced out too easily IMO and it immediately loses a turn of Terrain. It can be very deadly late game when the opposing team is worn down though.

Heatran is a great tank but is vulnerable to being worn down (it hates Spikes stacking teams). Magma Storm is kinda pushing broken but it's low PP and low accuracy keep it in line imo.

I'd see Pex banned before either because it's annoying as shit to play against, but I can't say it's broken.

 

[Finchinator]

Rillaboom isn’t banworthy or suspect worthy. It is a really good Pokemon and perhaps a little polarizing, but that’s about it.

The amount of checks and counters to it defensively clearly constitutes sufficient counterplay on that front and there are a large amount of offensive Grass resists and Grassy Glide checks, especially with the rise of Kyurem, Tapu Lele, and various Flying types like Dragonite, Zapdos, and Tornadus-T.

Rillaboom can be problematic for specific offenses like Rain, but even those aren’t outright invalidates if approached properly and they are far more the exception than the rule. Only a bit over a dozen people complained about Rillaboom over a 1250+ person survey and there have been no talks of suspecting it at this point.

 

[Pinkacross]

I'm gonna have to disagree with banning Rillaboom. Yes it's incredibly annoying especially with how its design somehow has an external object but I don't think it's broken at all. It's just like the case of every mon in ou, it has only like two or three mons that can reliably switch in and force it out while a lot of mons force it out or kills it if they get a free switch and it has a way of crippling those two or three mons

Rillaboom is not broken like in the case of Urshifu where no Buzzwole = auto lose or Magearna where you have to pray that your team has a good matchup against the million of options it has but if you want to be safe from all of its a million options, you're vulnerable to the rest of the tier. There are a lot of counter play and as I said earlier, only few can reliably switch in but a lot more can beat it if they get safe switch ins. Tapu Lele for example, is a great check but that's just it, a check, not a counter. Rilla is also countered by metal birds and Tangrowth and they have their own use outside of merely checking one mon like Buzzwole did so you're not exactly crippling yourself that much by using them

Don't get me wrong, I find Rillaboom incredibly irritating but it's far from unmanageable for it to be banned. You may have to account for it when building teams but then again, you always have to do that with every threat in the tier

Also, that list you mentioned that Rilla invalidates is flawed as there are other major points on why they aren't that good

1. Tapu Lele is the one responsible for Azumarill's fall. Rilla wasn't around in gen seven while Lele was and I believe that was when Azu started to falter because it can't do anything with Lele's terrain. Again, Lele only checks Azu not counter

2. I can agree but on the other hand, rain already wants to have a bird on its team because rain just offers so much yet doesn't have enough team slots, unless it's gen five where rain was permanent but it no longer is

3. Tapu Lele is one of the most dominant breakers right now with only Aegislash being the one true counter. Rilla doesn't invalidate psychic terrain because it dies if it recklessly switches in. The opposite is also true, psychic terrain summoners die instantly if they switch in recklessly against Rilla. Again, a case of checks and not counters

4. The same case as above, except for Regileki because it sucks

5. I'm not exactly sure on this one though since sticky web teams have their Galarian Zapdos and Bisharp which don't die to grassy glide unless severely weakened

6. This thing has pathetic defensive stats. Pure offensive pokemon can barely take any hits even if its resist. If you want further proof then look at how Blaziken with life orb one shots Dragapult with flare blitz after swords dance, even with jolly nature. Types alone don't dictate if a mon should survive a resisted move

7. Same case as Lele, it checks Rilla, not counters it

8. I kinda agree with this one to be honest. The generations have been rough for Gengar and somehow the removal of Tyranitar's pursuit didn't help much

9. Zam isn't exactly that afraid of Rilla. In fact, it is the other way around. If Zam has sash, it just destroys Rilla or at least greatly weaken it. If Zam managed to get nasty plot up, Rilla is toast. I don't really think life orb Zam is that good anyway because it's real issue is starting to appear, frailty and it wants every item in the game. Without nasty plot, it has a rather hard time getting kills and it's 120 speed is no longer as special as it was in gen five. Without sash, it dies to everything but with sash, only Garchomp can reliably kill it in one turn but it also wants the power of life orb which in doing so would only leaves it more vulnerable

10. Hasn't Gyarados been going downhill since gen six?

11. As someone who spammed Keldeo a lot, Rillaboom is not its only issue. The burn nerf and Toxapex has been its downfall. The metagame trends aren't exactly kind to it. It was still unwallable in rain, until Slowking rose because its talents were needed to handle Lele and had the side effect of hard countering Keldeo

12. Rilla isn't even the biggest perpetrator to this one. It's ou's unending supply of steel types. Rilla is just one that came along that made it worse. Steel types are the ones that invalidates Nihilego as a mon. Ou's monstrous ground types and lack of hidden power also made Nihilego worse

13. Don't shell smash users have issues outside of Rilla? Like bulky waters or something?

All in all, despite my own personal distaste for Rillaboom, it fits in with ou quite nicely. It's just like all the mons in the tier, having next to no counter but is checked by a lot of offensive threats in the tier. It has sufficient enough counter play for me not to think its banworthy. Yes I hate this mon especially with its dumb design but it's not problematic enough for it to be banned

I've said this before, if we ban Rillaboom on the basis that it can cripple its own answers then we might as well ban nearly everything in ou. Ferrothorn, Heatran, Garchomp and Dragapult are just some of those mons that can cripple their own answers. Ferrothorn is the most annoying mon in the tier and one of the most reliable knock off spammer, Heatran has a lot of options with magma taunt or power herb or whatever while Garchomp is only slowed down by Lando, which it beats over the course of a long game and can choose on whether it loses to Mandibuzz or Corviknight. Dragapult is the same, it only truly loses to Mandibuzz, which it can screw over with its status options or turn into u turn fodder

Banning mons with that basis, in my opinion, would also kill the prediction part of the game, specifically double switches. I mean, you're supposed to be thinking about what you're enemy might do and make a prediction based on what options he or she has and the most ideal scenario, given the statement that ou mons have little to no counters, is to get your check in at the same time they get their threat in so you can be a few steps ahead

PS

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That was only for the metagame because I would really love to ban Rillaboom for no other reason than its design sucks. Like why in the seven hells is a drum part of a pokemon

For several of these points, it seems as though you didn't really read the description. For Azumarill, if Lele is what killed it, why did it have immensely higher usage in gen 7? Also, I did not claim Rillaboom made Lele bad. Lele is very good, but I said it made psychic terrain teams bad. As for Alakazam, try using it, and you'll surely find Rillaboom to be its greatest opponent. For the shell smash users, almost all of them easily break bulky waters after a shell smash, but Rillaboom hard shuts them down. As for Regieleki sucking, yes it sort of does. However, Alolan Raichu is certainly viable... or it would have been if Rillaboom didn't shut down electric terrain and OHKO it. Gyarados hasn't really been going downhill, it was on plenty of successful teams in gen 7. As for Nihilego-- steels prevent it from being S tier, sure. But Rillaboom prevents it from being viable at all. I am NOT trying to make the case that Nihilego, Gyarados, and Omastar would be the next Landorus Therian if Rillaboom was gone. My point is that they are invalidated and made not worth using by Rillaboom due to it's ability to OHKO them. Rillaboom is high usage enough that every offensive sweeper that doesn't 2x or 4x resist grass is made not worth using. That is, in my opinion, why it's so toxic. The 91 bp priority has overcentralized offense far too much.

I think Rillaboom is a solid threat in the tier and a Pokemon that exerts a great amount of pressure both in game and in teambuilder, but I do not think its broken right now, although I don't mind a suspect.

But I'm very glad you brought up this topic, because there's another Pokemon that actually is a really good teammate to Rillaboom and has been quietly ascending the ranks of the meta.




I already talked about this a while back, but I want to discuss the topic again because things have changed. In the recent usage stats, Heatran had a whopping 21.86% usage. Heatran is NUMBER THREE (+6, it was #9 in March usage stats) IN USAGE. I literally don't even remember the last time it was this high, if ever. This means one in five teams have Heatran on their team, which is absolutely crazy to think about. Usage does not equal something being centralizing, but this massive increase should definitely be noted. I know some people might think Heatran is a necessary evil because of the very common Toxapex/Corviknight + ground type running around, but I'm not sure if that's all so valid of an argument. More and more Toxapex's are running Shed Shell, and we are still seeing an increase in the usage of Earthquake on not only Glowking, but even Slowking and Slowbro. The defensive dragons, including the new-ish SpD Garchomp, that are running around in high ladder are not specifically for Heatran, but they do find their spot on teams BECAUSE of their ability to check Heatran. These are all indications that Heatran is starting to increase his pressure in the teambuilder even more.

Both Body Press and Heavy Slam have been rising in tournament usage, but also on the ladder as well, as now Heatran can utilize them to wallbreak even harder. He gets to trap and kill Blissey while preserving more HP than usual, and he gets to completely eliminate Tyranitar as a possible check or counter. Heavy Slam provides constant damage to fairies including Tapu Fini. It's also worthy to note that these two moves also hit Kyurem on the switch, which is actually really huge for Heatran. These are not even the only sets Heatran can run, as Power Herb + Solar Beam is still a valid option, and so is Nature Power with all the terrain spam going around. Rillaboom is already a fantastic partner to Heatran, so a grassy terrain boosted Nature Power can be easily slapped on if the player wills it. Misty Terrain in particular helps Heatran gets past Garchomp, which is probably its most common switch-in, and the occasional Hydreigon.

The fact that Heatran, of all different Pokemon, is becoming more and more versatile is especially scary, and although most people probably don't agree on a ban, I think that Heatran is definitely worthy of a suspect test. If not immediately, at least in the near future.

I understand your views, but I don't find Heatran broken enough to warrant a suspect test. Even Nature Power sets have reliable checks and things that cripple it, such as Knock Off Shed Shell Toxapex, Garchomp, and Dragonite. You're definitely correct that Heatran in grassy terrain is good, and I believe Heatran deserves an S tier ranking, but unlike Rillaboom it does not invalidate entire playstyles (except maybe sun RIP) and it's low speed tier and lack of priority keep it from immensely threatening offensive builds.

Rillaboom isn’t banworthy or suspect worthy. It is a really good Pokemon and perhaps a little polarizing, but that’s about it.

The amount of checks and counters to it defensively clearly constitutes sufficient counterplay on that front and there are a large amount of offensive Grass resists and Grassy Glide checks, especially with the rise of Kyurem, Tapu Lele, and various Flying types like Dragonite, Zapdos, and Tornadus-T.

Rillaboom can be problematic for specific offenses like Rain, but even those aren’t outright invalidates if approached properly and they are far more the exception than the rule. Only a bit over a dozen people complained about Rillaboom over a 1250+ person survey and there have been no talks of suspecting it at this point.

Consider this the beginning of talks of suspecting it. Now there are talks of suspecting it. You make good points, and you're right in a way-- Rillaboom's breaking potential is not enough to make it banworthy: though I did state this in my original post. What puts Rillaboom over the edge is how it has overcentralized offensive teams and offensive teambuilding. Along with making many pokemon unviable, Rillaboom has completely killed psychic spam terrain teams, electric terrain teams, and forced rain and sand teams to look practically exactly the same every time, running several Rillaboom counters and often still losing to it. Furthermore, most Offense and HO teams have at least 4 grass resists, and this is clearly not because HO pokemon just resist grass by coincidence. Many successful gen 7 HOs had only one or two grass resistances. To say that Rillaboom can be problematic for "specific offenses" is a drastic understatement. It is a huge constraint for ALL offenses. Due to recieving mixed reactions to my intial post, I would say that there is certainly a large group of people in favor of a Rillaboom suspect test, and I expect that number to grow as discussion continues.

ausma edit: please stop consecutive posting

 

[Red Raven]

For several of these points, it seems as though you didn't really read the description. For Azumarill, if Lele is what killed it, why did it have immensely higher usage in gen 7? Also, I did not claim Rillaboom made Lele bad. Lele is very good, but I said it made psychic terrain teams bad. As for Alakazam, try using it, and you'll surely find Rillaboom to be its greatest opponent. For the shell smash users, almost all of them easily break bulky waters after a shell smash, but Rillaboom hard shuts them down. As for Regieleki sucking, yes it sort of does. However, Alolan Raichu is certainly viable... or it would have been if Rillaboom didn't shut down electric terrain and OHKO it. Gyarados hasn't really been going downhill, it was on plenty of successful teams in gen 7. As for Nihilego-- steels prevent it from being S tier, sure. But Rillaboom prevents it from being viable at all. I am NOT trying to make the case that Nihilego, Gyarados, and Omastar would be the next Landorus Therian if Rillaboom was gone. My point is that they are invalidated and made not worth using by Rillaboom due to it's ability to OHKO them. Rillaboom is high usage enough that every offensive sweeper that doesn't 2x or 4x resist grass is made not worth using. That is, in my opinion, why it's so toxic. The 91 bp priority has overcentralized offense far too much.

I literally just checked the usage stats on gen 7 ou 1695 in february and june of 2019. I think that's a fair date since ss came out at november on that year. Azumarill didn't have high usage. On feb it was only fifty fourth with 2.5% usage while in june it was fourty seventh at 3.7%. I don't know what the cutoff was in gen seven but that isn't high usage at all. When compared this to the same year and months of gen six usage, Azu was twenty fifth and fourteenth respectively. That is a whole lot of usage loss. That is why I say Lele is what killed Azu. Rilla just added more salt in the wound

Why would psychic terrain teams be bad because of Rilla? Terrain wars have existed even in gen seven. The offensive terrain summoners check each other because their terrain replaces the current one

Oh I have used Alakazam, a lot. I even spammed Zam after the bunnies were banned because there were so much bullshit mons running around that it was such a good safety net. If it's running life orb, Zam is utter garbage, as it should be. Sash Zam on the other hand, is such a good safety net as I said. I even made a post about why I enjoyed it a lot. If it manages to get up a nasty plot, then it can very feasibly kill two pokemon because it still has a very good speed, especially if the opponent tries to use their faster mon to kill it in one go, which wouldn't work because of the sash. I've destroyed countless Rillabooms with Zam and it was such a blessing for my sand team. The only reason I stopped using Zam is because the bullshit mons I used it against were going back to their non existence so I went back with Lele which is a more reliable breaker

I'm not gonna comment that much on shell smash because I barely run into them and I usually manage to out offense them myself by making risky plays. It sometimes works, sometimes it doesn't. You're also forgetting that Cloyster is the most common shell smash user, I think, and it has ice shard and after a smash, it's faster and thus its priority goes first even under terrain

Alolan Raichu is viable? That I can agree but the only reason for that is the terrain. If you say Alo Rai gets shut down because of Rillaboom, does Rilla switch in against it and live? Won't Tapu Lele accomplish the same result? No, Rilla dies Alo Rai and yes, Lele will remove the speed boost from Rai because its terrain removes the electric one. As I said, terrain wars

Really? Were those Gyarados mega or not? Because the usage stats says otherwise as regular Gyarados is ranked past a hundred in the stats

No, it's steels that make Nihilego unviable. Steels are very common in ou and their existence already make its life difficult. Rilla is just adding more salt in the wound. Even if Rilla was banned, Nihilego will still be very niche because it cannot touch steels at all, unless it somehow managed to get +6 spa and spams power gem

If that's the case, then why does Garchomp and Lando, two mons that are vulnerable to grassy glide, have higher usage than Rilla? I guess we can not count Lando since it mostly goes utility but Garchomp almost always goes offensive with either mixed, sd and sometimes scarf. Is Garchomp not worth using because it doesn't resist grass?

I think you're kinda misinterpreting the part about overcentralizing. I mentioned Urshifu earlier because it's only counter play was Buzzwole. Rilla does not fall into that category because while it somewhat centralizes the game around it's priority move, it's does not overcentralize it because it has a long list of counter plays. Metal birds and bulky grasses can switch into it while other terrain summoners force it out with carefully timed double switches. This is why many think Rilla is not ban nor suspect worthy, because you are not required to use one on a list of mons that can be counted on one hand just to beat it and all of its checks or counters are good pokemon who do more than merely deal with Rilla, unlike Buzzwole whose sole existence was to shut down Urshifu

 

[glava222]

Oh I have used Alakazam, a lot. I even spammed Zam after the bunnies were banned because there were so much bullshit mons running around that it was such a good safety net. If it's running life orb, Zam is utter garbage, as it should be. Sash Zam on the other hand, is such a good safety net as I said. I even made a post about why I enjoyed it a lot. If it manages to get up a nasty plot, then it can very feasibly kill two pokemon because it still has a very good speed, especially if the opponent tries to use their faster mon to kill it in one go, which wouldn't work because of the sash. I've destroyed countless Rillabooms with Zam and it was such a blessing for my sand team. The only reason I stopped using Zam is because the bullshit mons I used it against were going back to their non existence so I went back with Lele which is a more reliable breaker

I gotta say, it feels nice to see more sash zam stans in here. I personally feel like zam is the most reliable sash counter user by a long shot (gengar has a higher ceiling with destiny bond but tends to fall flat on its face a lot more), as its magic guard makes not breaking sash soooo much easier, and its truly amazing physical bulk makes it so it can take attacks from such physically offensive behemoths as:
0- Atk Butterfree U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 180-212 (71.7 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (this is with 0 defense EVs)
which basically guarantees that its getting a full power counter anytime any physical attack hits it.

I think you're kinda misinterpreting the part about overcentralizing. I mentioned Urshifu earlier because it's only counter play was Buzzwole. Rilla does not fall into that category because while it somewhat centralizes the game around it's priority move, it's does not overcentralize it because it has a long list of counter plays. Metal birds and bulky grasses can switch into it while other terrain summoners force it out with carefully timed double switches. This is why many think Rilla is not ban nor suspect worthy, because you are not required to use one on a list of mons that can be counted on one hand just to beat it and all of its checks or counters are good pokemon who do more than merely deal with Rilla, unlike Buzzwole whose sole existence was to shut down Urshifu

I would still like to throw a kind word in for my bug boy here; as I don't really think saying that the only thing it did was wall urshifu is completely fair to it. It hard walled several very dangerous physical attackers, such as kartana,rilaboom itself,scarf lando,chomp without fire fang(honestly even with fire fang it could check it)..., and going back to even further kyub and zygarde. The bigger problem with it was that some of these mons carried flying coverage for it, and especially that shifu was often supported with FS which made buzzwole a non entity. It's defensive sets also tended to be very passive

 

[Tushar Cool]

I just wanna point out that Rilla also completely and utterly fucks Sand as a playstyle as well as it 1hkos its 2 best sweepers (Chomp+Exca) and it setters. So you are basically required to run Corv/Skarm+Grass resist if ya wanna make sand work at all!




I just wanna point out here that it doesn't really matter if it checks Chomp+Zera. Broken checks broken is something that's always tried to be avoided and if something is broken without another broken mon then it should just be banned as well.

So basically a grass type destroying sand if you don't run a grass resist makes it broken?

 

[GIVETHEGOBLINSOMEGOLD]

"The biggest problem this generation, bigger than Dracovish, Magearna, Urshifu, Spectrier, or even Cinderace-- is Rillaboom." i agree with some of the points but this isnt it

 

[Red Raven]

glava222 wait, is counter Zam actually a thing?

To be fair, Buzzwole was mainly used because of Shifu. All the other physical threats can be handled by metal birds or other walls but Buzz was the only one that held the quality of beating Shifu, which none of the other physical walls can do. Walling all the other physical threats is just icing on the cake and when paired with Zapdos, it was a very sturdy physical defense core. Its passivity isn't the only issue. The fact that despite being a very fat, or rather, muscular wall, it just offers no utility aside from random toxics. I say that's what Buzz's real downfall is because any physical attacker without flying type move is almost never gonna break thru it even to this day

 

[Schpoonman]

Smogon doesn't ban Pokemon to increase the viability of a bunch of lower-ranked mons. If Rillaboom singlehandedly made offense as an archtype unviable, which it absolutely does not, there would be grounds for a suspect test. As it stands it's just a very strong breaker with the strongest priority (and just about the worst possible typing) in the tier.

Blindly setting up SD Shot Chomp with Rilla in the back doesn't make Rilla broken or Chomp an unviable sweeper any more than Mamoswine existing made Dragons unviable in gens past. You just need to remove the revenge killer.

EDIT: ForstamemasNeetaroOoniqua Yeah, access to Magic Guard lets Zam hold on to its sash until it wants it to break, especially now that Pursuit is gone. Counter's negative priority helps encourage attacking Zam only to get blown up. Can also run Thunder Wave for extremely cheesy sweep stops.

 

[Finchinator]

Consider this the beginning of talks of suspecting it. Now there are talks of suspecting it.

That’s fine — I’m here to make sure the tier is handled in the best fashion for the playerbase rather than just catering to my personal agenda, but I still don’t think that there’s enough support for it now and we will likely have a retest before we test anything currently in the tier. Just want to set the expectations now given survey results and council discussions I am fully aware of.

 

[Gomi]

Rillaboom is 100% centralizing on offensive building and its extreme efficiency in regards to anti offense, supporting HOs itself, and providing team support do indeed warp the tier to some extent, Birds generally have to inclined themselves to physdef (bar Corv) and offensive mons that were already struggling like Terrak and Azu were kinda given even less of a reason to be run on HO or sometimes at all, but I can't really say Rillaboom's prescence in the tier is like negative lol.
Pinkacross already addressed the breaking aspect just fine, given the right amount of time, Rillaboom can cripple and momentum chain its counterplay until there's nothing standing in its way. It isn't even semi unique in this (Zeraora, Dragapult, Kart abuses Knock just as much) and if anything it has more counterplay than most mons that follow this momentum vortex/Knock abuse routine, I don't think it even remotely pushes it over the edge.
The actually worth discussing bit is down here
The offensive side of the Issue is blurrier, but I don't think I've ever built an HO and thought "oops not enough grass resists lol time to start over" They just kind of naturally come on by virtue of being good mons like Volc, Bisharp, etc. and I've seen pokemon you listed as unviable because of rilla preform just fine in the abscence of rillaboom or just by altering their role a tad to function more like a way to force damage instead of a sweeper, which is a big part of playing HO anyways, identifying what does what in what game lol. ones that you listed like Cloyster don't even flat out lose to Rillaboom as you suggest as the amount of chip needed for Cloy to beat Rilla is as simplistic to achieve as a Bish Sucker, spikes+rock from a Mew lead, Helm or rough skin chip from Garchomp+rocks, etc.
Some of these are just like not good pokemon that lose to something just incredibly common in this metagame, ala gar losing to all speed control, so listing them feels somewhat disingenuous. This isn't to say there isn't fine pokemon that can't really easily be justified on HO bc of Rilla, out of that list, I can't really argue Gyara wouldn't be substantially better in the abscence of Rillaboom, probably not great but more usable, but I think you're blowing it out of proportion a good bit.
All in all this kind of just reads like a Pokemon being anti cheese HO (dumb matchup fishy shit like eterrain and polteageist) and if that's the case, these kinds of fringe playstyles already ride or die on facing the build you made them to harass, what's the issue rlly.

 

[Totomon]

Pinkacross definetively makes some fair points about rilla's influence in the metagame however they are basing their whole argument on the fact that rilla puts pressure on offense, which isnt as relevant as they make it sound.
Playstyles like full on offense and stall are born to combat meta trends and fight against the main playstyle (balance) so the fact that offense has to have more grass resists doesnt really matter as that is what those playstyles are supposed to do
, adapt to meta trends. Schpoonman made a good point in that we don't ban pokemon to increase the viability of other mons we ban them because they are uncompetitive, excessively overcentralizing or too powerful for the tier, which rillaboom isnt.
Mons that are prone to being RK by rilla are still viable (garchomp), Even without rilla rain teams and sand teams will look mostly the same since they have a small pool of abusers and passing up on something as important as a grass resist on a rain team is just stupid and basing rilla's ban on the fact that it invalidates a subset of niche offensive playstyles isnt enough reason for me.

 

[CheesyBrie]

Okay, just want to weigh in on a topic in which I have no actual expertise. Except I want to call out something that seems ubiquitous across Pokemon people don't like:
Choice Band.

Darmanitan-Galar (Does it have "double" choice band thanks to its ability? Or is it scarfed with guerilla tactics?)
Dracovish (Everyone learned to fear the banded fishious rend. Even The Pex.)
Cinderace (this one is a toss up, because Ace also used HDB to be a pivoting nightmare. But the calcs from banded Ace exist for a reason.)
Urshifu-S (Banded Wicked Blow go brrrrr)

And now we're on to Rillaboom. Banded Grassy Glide.

My point is this: The recurring issue is the backbreaking pressure of a banded mon.
I've been jamming Banded Terrakion just for fun, and it's nowhere near good, but it just does a lot of damage.

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Ferrothorn: 434-512 (123.2 - 145.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And just for clarity with a fully defensive Ferro
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 348-410 (98.8 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Choice band is an item that is specifically meant to tear absolute holes through tanks. That's exactly what Rillaboom does. That's what Darm, Vish, Ace, and Urshifu-S did. That's the entire point.

And we NEED that, otherwise things like The Pex and other regenerator cores become incredibly difficult to confront.
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Grassy Terrain: 217-256 (71.3 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Ferrothorn: 126-149 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- 91.5% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Landorus-Therian in Grassy Terrain: 210-247 (54.9 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Grassy Terrain: 320-380 (81.2 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 127-150 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- 90.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 96-114 (28.7 - 34.1%) -- 1.9% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 161-190 (41.7 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Grassy Terrain: 210-247 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

Sorry to not hide the calcs, but that's this monkey vs the Tier's premier tanks and stuff. Just feel like it helps you see that the current walls of OU are, in my opinion, reasonably keeping this thing in check. (Except Slowbro)

 

[haunted paper]

I am just an observer + newbie but, I really want to be a part of the discussion. So, hello.

Freeing Zamazenta Crowned - This looks like a harmless idea that could prove useful to see how it could help the meta. It lacks a huge offensive presence due to the lack of proper boosting move (no sd or dd) and not being able to run an item. The stats are huge and the ability is big against offense but overall, it does have a tough time against fat teams and special attackers. I think how well it can check physical attackers is what will determine if it is broken or not. If it does the job too well then ban, if not then hello new box legend. As for now, I think of Zama-C as a Lando-T.

The Pink Boom heard around OU - Rillaboom is kind of broken because of how well everything works in its favor imo. It really does have an excellent movepool that helps it pass the sturdy walls in OU, wood hammer for Pex, knock off for flying types, super power for ferrothorn and heatran, and SD for everything in general. But furthermore, Grassy Terrain as an ability helps push it even further, and assists teammates through recovery + providing ground resistance, thus allowing mons (like Heatran) to get even better. U-Turn from Rillaboom can provide chip and get in other team mates (like Magnezone) easier for increased momentum. Rillaboom can even work in tandem with future sight strats.

So I can see how Pink Heracross and a handful of other users find Rillaboom to be broken. It brings in unhealthy 50/50s that are in its favor and it does appear to be that Rilla does force a lot of switching, even doubling. Rilla has everything it needs to break any team yet, it can't do it all that easily and does require predictions + team support. Maybe that's enough to require a suspect: How good is Rillaboom at disrupting teams?

I also want to add that Gomi's post does illustrate a good picture of how Rillaboom isn't broken.

Ruffled Pro's Heatran Discussion - Eh, it's tough to say if Heatran is broken or not imo. It does warp the meta heavily around itself and it can abuse the meta to further boost its offense power. Its a tough mon to wall and a tougher mon to OHKO without a STAB super effective move. In fact, the return of Heatran is the sole reason why some mons lost a huge amount of viability; Charizard + sun, Volcorona, Latios, and a few others I'm forgetting. Its also a very versatile mon that can even get away with choice scarf eruption.

At the same time, Heatran's weaknesses are common, its heavily dependant on teammates, it has 4MSS, and it does have accuracy issues that do keep a lot of its sets from working perfectly. I don't think it deserves a suspect yet, but I can see how it does have an unhealthy effect on the meta considering how well it beats stall.

 

[gye5]

I honestly think that draga is an issue, is the dracovish agisnt offensive teams, why am I saying these, well it outspeed most offensive mons except zera, who is not switching, that stab combination is excellent, with useful defensive utility, mainly againt choiced mons. But before banning mons, is usually better to see the positive and the negatives, thanks to that speed tier, it can check many dangerous mons, wont listed because u should know. The negative is that if u are not running specific cores (wiglituff exist, is a joke just run clef) running spe def clef means, u can no longer check many dangerous physiscal therats like chomp, urshifu and more. lets say we dont have draga in the tier, latios can take the roll of the dragon that revenge kill other dragons, but with a worse stab combination. It is hard to know if this is for the better or not, and with so many people wanting to complain about certain mons, the council doesnt know what to do with the community, because how polarized it is right now. Ucan ban or unban mons if u want the chaotic meta gain, just kidding. I dont know if this is reckless, and I dont think someone like finch will agrre, but just suspect or retest in row all the mons or trapping abilities to shut down the OU community that very noisy rn.

 

[Sexual Fresh Green]

my thoughts are 2 very simple ones:

rillabooms issues clearly stem from the interactions between both type, move, and ability. if one of them, either ability or move, were to be removed from the equation, the entire structure would topple. my suggestion would be to maybe suspect test grassy glide itself rather than rillaboom/grassy terrain.

heatran is not broken in the slightest it's just a really good pokemon with a lot of utility.

 

[TailGlowVM]

my suggestion would be to maybe suspect test grassy glide itself rather than rillaboom/grassy terrain.

Oh no not this discussion again...

 

[gye5]

my thoughts are 2 very simple ones:

rillabooms issues clearly stem from the interactions between both type, move, and ability. if one of them, either ability or move, were to be removed from the equation, the entire structure would topple. my suggestion would be to maybe suspect test grassy glide itself rather than rillaboom/grassy terrain.

If u want to ban moves, I would with moves that were widespread like scald for example, but I am agaisnt banning certain combination

 

[Totomon]

If u want to ban moves, I would with moves that were widespread like scald for example, but I am agaisnt banning certain combination

Ok now y'all are getting WAY too banhappy, things can't be banned just cus u think they are annoying, like people wanting pex banned cus it's a defensive mon literally nothing else

And if we wanted to ban either grassy terrain/glide then we would need to prove that the problem is the move/ability not the mon itself.
And in my experience grassy glide sirfetch and bulu arent broken, so just... don't...

 

[gye5]

Ok now y'all are getting WAY too banhappy, things can't be banned just cus u think they are annoying, like people wanting pex banned cus it's a defensive mon literally nothing else

And if we wanted to ban either grassy terrain/glide them we would need to prove that the problem is the move/ability not the mon itself.
And in my experience grassy glide sirfetch and bulu arent broken, so just... don't...

for me u ban one thing or all as whole

 

[Sexual Fresh Green]

Ok now y'all are getting WAY too banhappy, things can't be banned just cus u think they are annoying, like people wanting pex banned cus it's a defensive mon literally nothing else

And if we wanted to ban either grassy terrain/glide then we would need to prove that the problem is the move/ability not the mon itself.
And in my experience grassy glide sirfetch and bulu arent broken, so just... don't...

the issue isn't grassy glide, it's the combination of grassy terrain (which sirfetch'd doesn't have) stab (which sirfetch'd doesn't have) deep as hell movepool (which bulu doesn't have) no exploitable quad weakness (which bulu doesn't have) and a base speed stat high enough to go against other priority mons or outspeed others with knock off etc (which bulu, once again, doesn't have)

the point was not "grassy glide needs to go" it's that rillaboom is a perfect storm of ability, move, base stat, coverage, etc to the point where it's a major force every team needs to account for. all I am advocating for is a change to 1 of those things, of which i was advocating for grassy glide solely because banning the whole pokemon is a bit too sweeping of a process for me.

 

[pulsar512b]

the issue isn't grassy glide, it's the combination of grassy terrain (which sirfetch'd doesn't have) stab (which sirfetch'd doesn't have) deep as hell movepool (which bulu doesn't have) no exploitable quad weakness (which bulu doesn't have) and a base speed stat high enough to go against other priority mons or outspeed others with knock off etc (which bulu, once again, doesn't have)

the point was not "grassy glide needs to go" it's that rillaboom is a perfect storm of ability, move, base stat, coverage, etc to the point where it's a major force every team needs to account for. all I am advocating for is a change to 1 of those things, of which i was advocating for grassy glide solely because banning the whole pokemon is a bit too sweeping of a process for me.

So, you're saying that the broken element is all of those together? and thus, the pokemon itself is the broken element? In that case, obviously, the pokemon should be banned.

 

[Liquidocelot]

So basically a grass type destroying sand if you don't run a grass resist makes it broken?

A grass type with the strongest priority I the game that can instakill half a sand team which every other Grass type either can't do or needs to sacrifice heavily to do

 

[Pinkacross]

I've been getting many counterarguments that look very similar, and I would like to address them here. Please read before further discussing Rillaboom, I'd appreciate it! :)

1.) "HO is always adapting to the meta, and most HO pokemon resist grass anyway."

This is simply not accurate, if you look back at past HOs. HO does counter the meta generally, and it is one of the most fluctuating playstyles. That being said, there hasn't been such little variation in HO teams for several generations. Offense and Hyper Offense teams of many styles have never looked so similar, and Rillaboom is singularly to blame for this. Many HOs don't run lots of grass resists-- and then they do poorly. If you look at the current top HO teams, they have at least 4 grass resists. Innovative HO teams that DON'T spam grass resists like Dragapult, Kartana, Hydreigon, Bisharp, Hawlucha, etc. end up too inconsistent to perform well.

2.) "Rillaboom has enough checks and counters on both the offensive and defensive side: Zapdos, Corviknight, Kyurem, Tornadus, Ferrothorn, etc."

Correct, it DOES have enough checks not to be banworthy for it's breaking capability. Rillaboom is NOT broken because of how it performs in games, it is broken COMBINED with how it performs in games AND how it has forced almost every single non-grass resisting sweeper out of the tier and into the non viable territory. These issues together are what make it banworthy, so please don't make any more "BuT wHaT aBoUt ZaPdOs AnD CoRvIkNiGhT?" comments-- I am aware it has sufficient checks and counters.

3.) "The pokemon you listed suck for other reasons, Rillaboom isn't why they are bad."

After testing all of the pokemon and playstyles on that list, I can confirm that Rillaboom is the most major factor for almost all pokemon on the list. Sticky Webs were hurt more by Boots than by Rillaboom, and Gengar was hurt more by the presence of Dragapult than by Rillaboom, but the consistent fact is that Rillaboom is a major factor responsible for pushing all of those pokemon into a state of non viability or near non viability. Note that I AM NOT CLAIMING that Omastar, Alolan Raichu, and Gyarados will be S tiers or even A tiers once Rillaboom is gone-- they will simply be real and viable threats that are consistent enough to use at a high level-- which they currenlty are not.

Lastly, I would like to reiterate that Rillaboom is not broken because of how it performs in games. It is very good, but it's not banworthy based on how it performs in games. Rillaboom will not sweep you like Magearna, it won't chip away your walls like an Urshifu, and it won't clean your whole team like Cinderace. What makes a very good pokemon like Rillaboom banworthy is what it FORCES YOU TO RUN. If you only play balance, sure, Rillaboom isn't a problem for you. But I must say, whether you play Offense and Hyper Offense or not: we cannot ignore that Rillaboom has forced all offensive playstyles to become more constrained and standard than ever before-- if this kind of restrictive building was placed on balance or fat teams, Rillaboom would've been gone months ago.

Many of you don't build teams, so it's no wonder you don't think Rillaboom is a big problem. If you don't build teams, talk to your friends who do-- Rillaboom is the #1 enemy of anyone trying to create any kind of innovative offense build.