Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

1) Pult and Corvi are the obvious notable increases. Most probably due to the bans being favourable to them. Nidoking has fallen quite a lot. Probably because faster, stronger breakers are arising. Slowking doesn't do it any favours. Dnite also has been a sleeper pick in the meta for quite some time. It is so good and reliable check to mon like Urshifu, Rilla etc. While also being a great win condition. Also the 5 rises we all saw happening over 3 months have all benefitted from the bans. Zone also is solely there to trap Corvi and Ferro.

2) Urshifu rising so much surprised me. Also the Scizor not making the cut is surprising. Volc also has risen a lot despite Tran being so high. I also expected Torn to be a lot higher.

3) Specs Pult is literally a cheat code. You simply can't go wrong with pivot Corvi. Ferro also is amazing.

4)I love mixed defense pivot pert. It's typing is just way too good. Despite lacking recovery, it is still pretty resilient with natural bulk and leftovers early game. It can just always check things decently early game and is a deceptively good rocker with toxic and flip turn. It also one of the best Tran checks especially with flip turn not allowing tran any momentum and generally being hard to KO.

5) I really like Koko for one. It's a perfect blend of offense, speed and defense. It just performs too many roles and it performs all of them well. Corvi is also a staple. Pult and Bish are always nice.

6) I think Koko, Pult and Corvi will continue to rise. Ferro is always going to be too 10. I think Pex can also rise higher with mons like Weavile, Scizor, Bish rising and feasting on Bro. The 6 new rises will continue to thrive as well.

7) i think Fini has stiff fairy and water competition with reliable recovery. Hydra is another mon I see getting even less usage. It's a perfectly good mon but I see people gravitating towards Kyurem and Pult more.

8) My favorite core is Corvi + Water/ Ground+Fairy. Mostly it is Pert but sometimes I like Gastro better. Fairy can be anything from Koko to Clef to Lele. Another core I like is Rilla + Tran + Pert.

9) Meta is fun but repetitive. There is a huge assortment of strategies viable rn but the top ones like Boots pivots teams, Rilla balances are way too good. Also mons like Corvi, Lando and Pult are way too common. It is kinda gets boring seeing them over and over again.

10) I used Kyurem specs and honestly I wasn't too impressed. It is definitely very strong and near Unwallable but boots are sorely missed and I don't know what was up with my luck but I faced every AV Galar king, Spdef Scizor, Aurora Veil teams, Blissey etc. when I used him. I personally liked scarfed a lot better. It was able to kill Pult, Koko, Zeraora etc. faster while still being pretty strong. But I think boots sub roost is still the best.
Weavile was absolutely amazing. It just murdered entire teams after an SD if you get sufficient chip on Koko or Zeraora for Ice Shard.
Bish is also always amazing. I was using it with a devilish infestation encore shuckle to lock them into defog and get defiant and them SD in the switch.et me tell you something, teams aren't prepared for +4 Bish. I was also using one on screens with WP. It was very good in Hippo and Body Press Corv matchups but worse overall outside of that.
Zeraora is something I felt was also very good but I always just ended up using Koko over it. While knock off is good, Uturn and roost are are much better especially IMO. Especially against Torn at and Zapdos.
I am yet to use Scizor and Magnezone.

11) Nothing to say for this.

12) I didn't use Zamazenta but played it a decent bit. In my experience the Howl+3 attacks set is the deadliest. It's bulk is extremely off the charts that it can set up on almost anything. 130 attack is nothing to fuck with either. I thought it would be good on Stall with wish support but where I truly feared it was HO with hitters. It can cause guaranteed damage with it's speed, bulk and power. It can very realistically overwhelm your team with the right support. Preventing a kill from it is so difficult as it can easily just howl and 2hko even things like pex and bro with wild charge. It can very easily just stay in and do this because their attacks do nothing to it back and Having such a catch all answer on offense is greatly appreciated too. IMO it IS too much for tier. That being said on non HO teams, I was easily able to prevent it from getting out of hands. We will still have to see how well it fares but my initial thoughts were it being broken.
 

AM

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1. What were the most notable increases and decreases, and why do you think these mons are used more/less now?
Nothing noticeable Latios been garbage, I've been saying this.
2. What increases or decreases surprised you the most?
None of them they were actually pretty obvious.
3. Among the mons with increased usage, what sets have you been using and enjoying?
Standard so nothing special
4. Among the mons with decreased usage, what are your favorite sets for those mons?
Buzzwole is actually okay despite it being dropped it only fits on fat teams though, imo.
5. What are your favorite mons to use in the current metagame?
Dragapult since it doesn't require a brain to use.
6. What mons do you predict will continue to see increased usage?
Chomp
7. What mons are you expecting to see a declining usage from?
Regieleki is the equivalent to Gen6OU Donphan, fighting to stay OU lol.
8. What are some of your favorite cores to use?
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9. How do you feel about the metagame?
Snooze.
10. Have you used any of the newly risen mons mentioned above? If so, how did they perform for you?
Yes all good, think Kyurem is going to get worse though.
11. Are there any replays from SPL or OST that you enjoyed and want to share? Any highlights worth discussing?
Empo winning OST cause he's the goat and it's dope to see his progression from spamming Bird Spam on ladder in XY years back to being an absolute beast. You did good though TPP. Didn't enjoy SS SPL as a spectator besides watching games with Ox talking about them and the teams people were using, I only tuned into a couple games live like Devin vs Ruft to show support, the highlights were all the old gen stuff SS OU showcase was pretty whack, very sweaty and boring, WCOP might be more interesting.
12. I hope you enjoyed using Zamazenta today. If you'd like to share how it performed for you, then you are encouraged to do so here.
Bad troll, pretty obvious you didn't get Finch to proof-read it cause you mixed up Zacian and Zamanta all the time smh.
 
1. Dragapult. When Spectrier was a thing in OU, the meta was leaning towards using the ghost horse over any other Ghost-type, now that it's out of the picture, Dragapult is pretty much in it's prime.
2. I know Magnezone + Rillaboom teams are everywhere nowadays, but I did not think Magnezone would make it to OU. I am very surprised by this.
3. I have been using Bisharp and DD Dragapult, I think they are fun to use.
4. Even though Latios is suddenly "trash" I still like the specs one. I also think banded Gapdos is pretty cool, I guess.
5. Rillaboom, Dragapult, Volcarona, Nidoking, and Zeraora would probably be my top 5 favorite to use in the tier (in order).
6. I see Zeraora rising even MORE due to it being one of the few things that can revenge kill/force out Dragapult.
7. I know people above me said this, but Regieleki. In my opinion, it doesn't have much things going for it in OU. Some people say it's a "HO enabler" but nowadays there isn't much of a reason to use Regieleki over Koko on HO. Also, being walled by Ground-types is a massive L. If I were to guess, this is the last month Regieleki stays in OU (might be a bizarre prediction but idk).
8. Rillaboom + Bisharp, RIllaboom + Kartana, Dragapult + Zeraora, Rillaboom + Zeraora, Tapu Koko + Hawlucha, Rillaboom + Hawlucha etc.
9. The metagame is probably around a 7/10 possibly a 6 i might be salty hurricane never hits and every move status' me.
10. Out of the six Pokemon that rised to OU, I think Bisharp and Dragapult performed the best. Bisharp would be my go-to wincon when I am playing stall. The amount of teams unprepared for it is actually unreal. Now, it probably wont have the same impact on stall because now Bisharp is OU meaning more people will hard prep. And Dragapult, well.. clicks buttons.
11. No
12. e
 
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1. What were the most notable increases and decreases, and why do you think these mons are used more/less now?
:dragapult: continuing its trend of being godlike is notable. This thing sets the new standard for speed control and is nigh-impossible to safely play around.

:kyurem: is a mon I already personally and controversially consider to be top 10 or very close; this thing is as beastly as ever and is literally impossible to actually play around as all it needs to cause some serious problems is a single Ice Beam or Freeze-Dry freeze.

:bisharp: and :magnezone: are showcasing a trend towards much stronger offenses, partially anchored by our resident Glide-spamming Gorilla.

:urshifu: (the wet one) is also solidifying itself as a strong, legitimate member of this metagame and this thing's usage was insane. It also got notable tournament results too.


2. What increases or decreases surprised you the most?
:swampert: maintaining its OU usage surprised me. What gives?

:hydreigon: barely making the usage cut for April is also astounding considering that, in the post-Spectrier meta, this thing is at its absolute best it's ever been in OU. Why is this thing suddenly a borderline-UU mon despite being more dangerous than ever?

:latios: always seemed like a mon that had a lot of potential in this tier but it just... isn't performing well. It dropped to UU and became probably the fastest UUBL mon since Mega Pinsir dropped that one time, but it just... isn't good in OU despite having a spectacular movepool now.

Also quite surprised that :magnezone: actually made OU. I knew it was great considering it would always be supporting some of the tier's most ferocious breakers like :rillaboom: and :kyurem:, but I can't believe it actually made the cut.

On another note: why the actual fuck is :regieleki: still OU by usage? This mon is utter trash. It is hot fucking garbage. Offensive sets are a massive gimmick and Screens is... kinda outclassed by other Screens setters like Grimmsnarl or Koko. Why is this thing becoming Gen 8 OU's Gen 7 UU Arcanine?

3. Among the mons with increased usage, what sets have you been using and enjoying?
Been using CB :bisharp: here and there and it is a beast. :slowking: continues to be a great mon as well, but we all knew this thing was destined for true greatness for some time now. And of course, :kyurem: has always been a mon with a lot of depth but it often gets away with murder by donning Choice Specs and recklessly clicking Ice Beam and scoring free KOs.

4. Among the mons with decreased usage, what are your favorite sets for those mons?
I still really like Specs :latios: but it's in a weird position where it always wants to click all four of its moves but has to lock itself into just one.

5. What are your favorite mons to use in the current metagame?
:rillaboom: is as great to use as ever. This thing is the most mandatory thing I've ever seen on HO and can be extremely dishonest at times, but it's also very rewarding to use.

Been messing with DD :kyurem: as well. Solid mon.

:garchomp: is GOATed too. I love how insanely good this mon is.

6. What mons do you predict will continue to see increased usage?
:garchomp: :tornadus-therian: :slowking: :rillaboom: :zeraora: will all probably get used more and more. They are all phenomenal in this tier and IMO their usage doesn't represent how incredible they truly are quite yet (well, maybe Rilla but you'd think the king of HO would be like top 4 in usage).

BOLD prediction for further usage from a mon that I am genuinely surprised didn't make the cut inbound:

:scizor: will make the OU cut during the next tier shifts. I am astounded this mon didn't already make the OU cut but it is very quickly establishing itself as a fantastic offensive mon with a great defensive profile to both support and deal with Rillaboom, and has seen a LOT of SPL usage during the later weeks to reflect this. Unless it randomly becomes shit I think it'll be an OU mainstay next shifts.

7. What mons are you expecting to see a declining usage from?
:regieleki: is dogshit and I feel like more people are starting to figure this out, but holy moly is it bad.

I kinda expect :mew: to decline again, but maybe I'm wrong.

Honestly, everything below the ~35 mark will probably crash and burn usage-wise sooner or later.

8. What are some of your favorite cores to use?
Take Rillaboom, slap on a Magnezone, partner that core up with other offense mons, and slap SR Chomp or SR Lando on the squad and call it a day. I also like :rillaboom: + :slowking-galar: (Nasty Plot, specifically) but y'all ain't ready for that conversation.

9. How do you feel about the metagame?
It's alright. It feels super stale at the moment but I'd rather us have a stable metagame than whatever the fuck happens to UU every time tier shifts happen.

10. Have you used any of the newly risen mons mentioned above? If so, how did they perform for you?
:zeraora: :kyurem: and :weavile: are all great and have been doing quite well in my experience. But :kyurem: was always busted IMO so lmao

11. Are there any replays from SPL or OST that you enjoyed and want to share? Any highlights worth discussing?
There was one replay where a Rilla's Grassy Terrain gave some dude's Volcarona enough recovery so it could live a banded Urshifu-R's Aqua Jet from full and that truly sold me on how good Rilla was even when Rilla itself wasn't beating everything's skulls in. I can't remember the replay and feel too lazy to look right now but it was absolutely astounding to watch!

12. I hope you enjoyed using Zamazenta today. If you'd like to share how it performed for you, then you are encouraged to do so here.
Didn't use it. Kinda want to when and if there's a real suspect test for it though.
 

Katy

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1. What were the most notable increases and decreases, and why do you think these mons are used more/less now?
:kyurem: :slowking: :magnezone: are for me the most notable increases, as I think all of them perform well. Kyurem with its Choice Specs set is a menace to switch into, when your special wall is gone or severely weakened, which makes Kyurem one of the most terryfing Pokemon to face in OU with a great typing and coverage and Ice itself is great, as it has the ability to hit most things at least neutral.
Slowking is a great specially defensive pivot with FuturPort support and we all know FuturePort support is great right now, moreover its a great check to many dangerous special wallbreakers like Nidoking, Tapu Lele, and Heatran. Especially Tapu lele with its increase in usage as well deserves a special mention as one of the Pokemon Slowking checks.
Magnezone traps and removes Steel-types for Rillaboom, which is great for Rillaboom in the later aspect of the game. It can either trap Steel-types such as Corviknight and Skarmory with a strong Choice Specs set, or just Magnet Pull the trigger on Ferrothorn with Sub + Iron Defense + Body Press.

3. Among the mons with increased usage, what sets have you been using and enjoying?
:kyurem: :zeraora: I like both for different reasons: Kyurem with its Choice Specs set can just tear teams apart and Zeraora is a great Pivot with superb Speed control in the tier with being 1 Point faster than Dragapult it clearly sets itself apart from many other speedy Pokemon.

:kyurem:
Kyurem @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Ice Beam
- Freeze-Dry
- Draco Meteor
- Focus Blast

:zeraora:
Zeraora @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Plasma Fists
- Volt Switch
- Close Combat
-
Knock Off

5. What are your favorite mons to use in the current metagame?
My Top 10 List:

1. Garchomp
2. Landorus-T
3. Weavile
4. Dragapult
5. Kyurem
6. Slowking
7. Scizor
8. Tornadus-T
9. Rillaboom
10. Tapu Koko

Honorable Mentions: Tapu Lele, Zeraora, Ninetales-Alola, Bisharp, and Heatran

6. What mons do you predict will continue to see increased usage?
I think :Scizor: sees a rise in usage as it is one of those Pokemon, which can check Tapu Lele, Kyurem, Rillaboom, and Kartana with its amazing typing and great movepool. I hope it rises into OU, as it would be deserved for the success it offers not only defensively but also offensively with a Swords Dance set + Steel-type Priority in Bullet Punch.

9. How do you feel about the metagame?
I think the metagame is in a pretty stabile place right now, sure some Pokemon are threatening but I think they're checkable with the many great tools we have, although in the teambuilding process I would keep all the threats in mind as some kind of a 'checklist' to not miss out any one of them. But in overall the metagame is in a pretty stabile stage!

10. Have you used any of the newly risen mons mentioned above? If so, how did they perform for you?
Yes, and they performed imho pretty well. Cannot complain. I like all these Pokemon due to the different things they bring to the table, which also makes teambuilding pretty fun to think about.

12. I hope you enjoyed using Zamazenta today. If you'd like to share how it performed for you, then you are encouraged to do so here.
I think the Bulk of Zamazenta-C is pretty good, especially when you pair it with a dual screen setter, it can turn into a tough case to dent through it with that natural bulk it has. I think the Howl + 3 Attacks set combined with Tapu Kokos Electric Surge is pretty good, to make it able to dent through Toxapex and Slowbro with more ease. However, it comes at the cost of its HP, as Wild Charge is a recoil move and can leave it vulnerable to other threats in the process, cause of it being worn down fast. But in overall offensively this Pokemon should not be underestimated.

That's all I have from now, thanks for reading as always and have a great day everyone! :blobwizard:
 

ausma

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Hello, everyone! I hope you all had fun on the suspect ladder yesterday. I certainly did; y'know, when I wasn't running into a Dugtrio. Screw that thing. It did skew some of my observations, but I tried to avoid using Dugtrio myself to get as accurate of a reading on Zamazenta as possible in the short span of time we had.

Seeing it finally in execution, I feel as though there are more points to actually discuss regarding it, and I have a consensus to make:

it's actually not that bad

No, seriously.



Let's pick this thing apart.

How does its bulk fare in execution?

Zamazenta is a Pokemon who operates offensively, without a shred of doubt; though, despite what it actually brings to the tier, its lack of longevity, proneness to chip damage, and lack of a Flying-, Psychic- and Fairy-type resistance makes it perform really awkwardly as a Steel-type tank, not being able to defensively answer Tornadus-T or Tapu Lele whatsoever. Its lack of longevity and proneness to chip damage also makes it an unreliable long term answer to wallbreakers it should in theory be able to check, such as Rillaboom or Kartana, which both also pack an access to Fighting-type coverage (Sacred Sword in the latter's case, which bypasses Dauntless Shield). This also does not take into account that passive damage generated through Spikes, Rocky Helmet, or Iron Barbs/Rough Skin does not care about Zamazenta's bulk.

I've mostly observed that Zamazenta uses its Steel-type for ease of setup and for a secondary STAB, as opposed to using it to reinforce its team defensively. When being used for its defensive merits, a team needs to run a main Steel-type with actual resistances to Flying-, Psychic-, and Fairy-type moves in order to handle Tornadus-T (to a degree) and Tapu Lele reliably. The best Steel-type partner I've found is Heatran, which provides a handy Fire-type immunity alongside the ability to trap and remove Toxapex and Slowbro. Most other Steel-types barring Ferrothorn just compress weaknesses and expand a team's vulnerability to Steel-type weaknesses since Zamazenta also boasts the same issues of Steel-type Pokemon with only part of the benefit. This is also why Wish Clefable also doesn't pair with it as well as you'd expect at a glance; even if you're keeping it healthy, you have no real advantages to exploit, barring maybe getting more opportunities to switch into stray U-turns and Knock Offs, which Clefable can do by itself anyway. Plus, Wishport Clefable is just kind of bad right now; it can usually never afford to pass Wish in matchups where it wants to keep Dragapult and Kyurem in check. Additionally, while its Knock Off impunity and natural bulk lets it perform well as a very effective (albeit short term) answer to some physical wallbreakers, it's mostly just that. It lacking the immediate power to threaten out things like Landorus-T and Rillaboom without prior boosting or proper coverage when it enters battle (unless they're Choice-locked) really sucks for it too.

Many people were also worried about its matchup against offense, and I'm happy to say that the hype in this regard is, thankfully, fake. Screens, Balanced Offenses, and VoltTurns beat down Zamazenta due to its proneness to chip damage, awkward type matchups against common offense cores, and lack of immediate strength, making it surprisingly easy to break past.

Its bulk is really deceptive given its lack of key resistances as a Steel-type, lack of any kind of self recovery, and general proneness to chip damage, pretty much forcing it to use its natural bulk more often than not for ease of setup. Granted, this allows for it to set up a couple times, which can prove to be pretty effective for a win condition, but as far as providing defensive utility for a team goes, it's really not as reliable as you'd expect.

How does its power fare in execution?

In terms of power, the lack of an item slot really shows. Base 130 without any Howl boosts or Adamant (if it wants to outspeed Tornadus-T) is really subpar in the current metagame, especially given that without Howl or Terrain boosts, it doesn't really have much of a shot at breaking past things like Slowbro, Toxapex, or Zapdos without the necessary coverage, which can force it to lose other matchups pretty badly. Even with the proper coverage, it's not really even a guarantee given Zamazenta's startlingly weak immediate power and the bulk of the targets it wants to try and pressure with its coverage. It wants Close Combat as its primary STAB (which also makes it frailer and more prone to revenge killing too), Behemoth Bash to pressure Close Combat switch-ins, Howl to actually make its attacks hurt, and a coverage move to deal with certain matchups after Howl boosting. In order to win, it generally needs switch-ins to its STABs to be pressured prior so they can be picked off by its coverage move of choice, which granted, is definitely not a super tall order. It pairs fairly well with Future Sight, hazards, and pivoting support to try and offset its lack of immediate power. Future Sight, from my understanding, is the biggest concern; however, it really isn't overpowered whatsoever since Zamazenta lacks the polarizing strength, utility, and offensive typings that made the former strategy broken with Urshifu and Pheromosa.

How good is Zamazenta, actually?

Despite the harsh criticisms I've been making, I actually think Zamazenta is still pretty good. All things considered, as a setup win condition, its bulk in tandem with its phenomenal speed tier and high BP STABs really let it perform super well once enough progress has been made. It can be really difficult to stop once you get going, but in that regard I find it somewhat comparable to Volcarona and Garchomp, where they can pretty readily sweep given the right conditions. It also pairs very well with Tapu Koko and Rillaboom, the former giving its Wild Charges a stronger kick to pierce past Slowbro, Corviknight, and Toxapex a little more easily, and the latter providing it much needed passive recovery alongside an Earthquake neutrality. As far as fitting it onto offensive cores go, it slots itself in pretty comfortably and can be supported pretty well in spite of its shortcomings.

As a wallbreaker, without Future Sight it is decent at best, and its niche in that regard is carried by its defensive utility in comparison to other wallbreakers in the tier. Any decent balance is able to keep it in check, especially with the threat of contact recoil to wear it down. There are a lot of natural options in the game that Zamazenta struggles to pierce past without Howl setup or Electric Terrain to bolster its Wild Charge, such as Slowbro, Slowking, Toxapex, Zapdos, Tapu Fini, and Corviknight. It can also be checked by things like Landorus-T, Bulkarona, and Garchomp, too. I've seen people trying out Alolan Marowak, which is a really cool check that also has some neat options of its own, such as Lightning Rod and the ability to beat Corviknight as a Stealth Rock setter. Lastly, there's the issue of PP, and its low PP on its main STABs is really problematic against Zapdos and Corviknight, which have no qualms swapping into it without a boost and running it short on breaking opportunities. As a whole, though, I think Zamazenta as a wallbreaker and tank is fairly underwhelming given the observations I've made of its power and how it uses its bulk in execution; I have found that it operates best as a win-condition above anything else, since it mostly benefits from certain conditions being fulfilled before actually being able to do its job.

What's also cool is that Zamazenta also does provide some productive things to the tier in spite of its scary looking traits. It does make it so Trick and Knock Off can't be spammed as liberally, and it actually provides the tier with a legitimately potent, speedy Fighting-type that isn't Urshifu-R or Hawlucha. Additionally, with its dual STABs, it encourages a greater variety in defensive cores to be utilized, which I find to be really wonderful given that many have been centralized almost exclusively around Corviknight, Ferrothorn, and Slowking as of late. Since it isn't a tall order to keep in check, it encourages variety without forcing an autoloss for teams that don't prep extensively for it.

Overall, while I was originally in team broken, after having used and played against it quite a bit on the "suspect" ladder yesterday, I'm all for a legitimate suspect, and am now leaning toward unbanning it! :>
 
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Fusion Flare

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1. What were the most notable increases and decreases, and why do you think these mons are used more/less now?
Latios. Imagine getting all the coverage you could ever want and STILL being shit. Well, better to have coverage and be bad than to have no coverage and be bad, i guess.
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7. What mons are you expecting to see a declining usage from?
Regieleki. That mon is the SM RU Jolteon of OU
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3. Among the mons with increased usage, what sets have you been using and enjoying?
Tangrowth. It SUPER OWNS rain, along with the physical grass types, bisharp, and happens to be an incredible pivot. Use it, you won't regret it.
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Many people were also worried about its matchup against offense, and I'm happy to say that the hype in this regard is, thankfully, fake. Screens, Balanced Offenses, and VoltTurns beat down Zamazenta due to its proneness to chip damage, awkward type matchups against common offense cores, and lack of immediate strength, making it surprisingly easy to break past.
Do you happen to have replays that showcase this?

In my opinions: This is the #1 reason why it would be cancerous. It being pretty easy to wall and chip down on its own is far from the main issue. It's the way it easily shuts down so many mons that would normally be balance breakers (especially physical ones). It immediately steals away momentum and the few chances these glass cannons get.

I saw a bunch of wish pass, or Zama running rest with aroma support yesterday. I even saw healing wish blissey restore it.
Most offensively inclined teams that didn't have like Tran or similar as a breaker, seemed to struggle against Zama Cores from what I saw.
I should've saved these replays myself to share.

P.S. one brainless answer to zama is helmet pyuku with block lol. But of course it's not fair to expect everyone to have to run stall mons.
 
Do you happen to have replays that showcase this?

In my opinions: This is the #1 reason why it would be cancerous. It being pretty easy to wall and chip down on its own is far from the main issue. It's the way it easily shuts down so many mons that would normally be balance breakers (especially physical ones). It immediately steals away momentum and the few chances these glass cannons get.

I saw a bunch of wish pass, or Zama running rest with aroma support yesterday. I even saw healing wish blissey restore it.
Most offensively inclined teams that didn't have like Tran or similar as a breaker, seemed to struggle against Zama Cores from what I saw.
I should've saved these replays myself to share.

P.S. one brainless answer to zama is helmet pyuku with block lol. But of course it's not fair to expect everyone to have to run stall mons.
The thing is that wish passers are not in a good spot in OU at the moment. While strategies were tried yesterday, it was a one day suspect. I tried them myself, and I often came with little to no results. I agree with Ausma that chip damage is a huge problem for Zama, and wish doesn't completely solve the problem either. Finding an opportunity to switch Zama in to get the wish pass is often more dangerous than you might think.

I would also like to mention that Hippowdon is a great check, it takes any hit and can whirlwind Zama away if it tries setting up. And chip from rocky helmet is pretty good.
 
ausma said:
It lacking the immediate power to threaten out things like Landorus-T and Rillaboom without prior boosting or proper coverage when it enters battle (unless they're Choice-locked) really sucks for it too.
I’d just like to point out this isn’t strictly correct. I’ve run the calcs (and had it occur in yesterday’s ladder), but Zama can beat defensive Lando-T 1v1 if it is brought in via a slow pivot. It can set up with Howl and 2HKO Lando-T with Behemoth Bash while tanking 2 uninvested EQs 70% of the time, assuming no prior chip on either mon. The issue with Zama is it’s so easy to bring it in on Knock Off, particularly from Banded Rillaboom/Kartana, and the Howl is free on the switch. Running Howl + STABs and Wild Charge, Zapdos is pretty much the only thing you can’t 2HKO after a Howl. It isn’t quite as broken as I expected, but it sets up way too easily and there are too few reliable switch-ins at +1. It’s too strong for OU imo.
Discharged Xurkitree said:
I would also like to mention that Hippowdon is a great check, it takes any hit and can whirlwind Zama away if it tries setting up. And chip from rocky helmet is pretty good.
Hippowdon isn’t a check at +1.
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 208-246 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Yes, you can Whirlwind it out, but only once. Second time Zama gets to +1 (which happens a lot) Hippowdon’s dead unless you managed to get in a Slack Off. Zapdos is the only real counter, and it gets 2HKOed after rocks if Zama is at +1.
 

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Zamazenta-C suspect ladder thoughts



Hi everyone, so I want to go over how I feel about Zamazenta-C after using it yesterday. I'm going to be honest. Zamazenta-C wasn't broken to me at all. I do think it has a lot of good traits however that is balanced with bad ones that have been repeated quite a lot if you see the last few pages. So, I feel Zamazenta-C is very good however it isn't broken to me all things considered and I know that yesterday was just an April Fools suspect for it but I genuinely think it's worth suspecting and I cannot argue against that whatsoever. So the big things that stand out about it is how bulky it is for its Speed and power coupled with its great STAB combination. Close Combat and Behemoth Bash hit a fairly good portion of the metagame and alongside Wild Charge it hits even more. Because of this and the fact that it takes advantage of stuff like Tapu Fini, Clefable and Rillaboom I would think it's broken right? Well not really.

Zamazenta-C really isn't strong, even with Howl and at +1. Unless a team is super weakened Zamazenta-C is not cleaning any teams any time soon, and it's so easily worn down that it doesn't have enough opportunities to get a full sweep off. Chip damage is pretty much a death sentence for Zamazenta-C because it bypasses Zamazenta-C's arguably biggest strength, which is its bulk; with stuff like Rocky Helmet Toxapex, Landorus-T, Garchomp and even Tangrowth, Zamazenta-C is fairly easily to chip to the point where its effectiveness worsens. This gets even worse when the fact that Pokemon it should be taking advantage of for progress making can just pivot out of it into a Pokemon that can heavily cripple it. You are probably saying, "use Wishport Clefable, how do you chip it now". Well Wish passing has never been harder to do in a metagame with stuff like Kartana, Tapu Lele and Kyurem being so hard to switch into for most teams, so getting the wish pass off consistently is pretty hard to say the least. Now I'm going to go over that I've been using on Zamazenta-C for the most part.

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Behemoth Bash
- Close Combat
- Wild Charge
- Howl

I feel this is Zamazenta-C's best set by far. STABs + Wild Charge hit almost every Pokemon it really needs to. With 200 Speed with Timid to speedcreep Tornadus-T it is a pretty nice wincon. It does need a weakened team in order to actually clean up but after its weakened it is easy for Zamazenta-C to clean. Again my main issue with Zamazenta-C is not only how it can be chipped so easily but also how the Pokemon it is supposed to take advantage of can just pivot out of it or chip it, and any little chip damage is detrimental to Zamazenta-C because well, the mon cannot hold Leftovers. Meaning that it really needs the boosts, Zamazenta-C despite the 130 Attack isn't exactly too strong, well not strong enough to bypass the many physical walls we have without Boosts, and even then it can be crippled by them through status, and a Zamazenta-C that is burned or paralysed is pretty much a useless one I feel. The Pokemon really struggles with breaking consistently and so the Howl boosts are pretty much a necessity in order for Zamazenta-C to actually break unless its facing an offensive team or the opposing team is weakened enough to where it is more easily able to bypass them.

=================

This may sound like I think Zamazenta-C is awful but it really isn't I feel, I feel it's very good but it's strengths while good were also paired with some plenty of flaws and its strengths are not polarising enough for me to care about them which made the flaws all the more apparent when testing this Pokemon out yesterday. I personally really want this Pokemon to legitimately be tested but that's just me. Let me know how you guys feel about Zamazenta-C after using it yesterday!
 
The thing is that wish passers are not in a good spot in OU at the moment. While strategies were tried yesterday, it was a one day suspect. I tried them myself, and I often came with little to no results. I agree with Ausma that chip damage is a huge problem for Zama, and wish doesn't completely solve the problem either. Finding an opportunity to switch Zama in to get the wish pass is often more dangerous than you might think.
Good rebuttal, yeah its true that ppl were usin bad stuff like Wish Audino for more longevity.

I would also like to mention that Hippowdon is a great check, it takes any hit and can whirlwind Zama away if it tries setting up. And chip from rocky helmet is pretty good.
Yeah there are alot of answers on the defense side.

The struggle is for offensive counterplay vs Zama cores.
Many balance breakers don't run boots, because they need items that boost damage or even like pads sometimes.
They get chipped by hazards, pivot moves, things like leech seed for them to come in, and all they do is chip zama a little before being forced out again.
So during the amount of time to chip down Zama, your breakers either get heavily chipped too, or you're not bringing them out and taking advantage of progress opportunities against Zama's teammates (that you'd normally make if Zama wasn't around).

Most mons with high bulk have good recovery but are usually sacrificing both immediate offense and speed, so offensive picks can often setup on many of these defensive mons. Zama has no recovery but has bulk, speed and offense so this kind of counterplay is shut down.

Lastly, Zama doesn't need to setup a howl to check alot of offense, even 4 attack set like bash, CC, wild charge, ice fang would be enough to cripple a ton of breakers / put them in recoil range, and thus Shield it's team from them ...

Chip damage is pretty much a death sentence for Zamazenta-C because it bypasses Zamazenta-C's arguably biggest strength, which is its bulk; with stuff like Rocky Helmet...
I think you're using Zama wrong if you're trying to attack defensive mons with it when it's not the late game;
I see Zama's most dangerous use as a check to a wide range of offensive mons that need better items than helmet for them to make progress against defensive cores.
 
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This new box legendary? It's NOT GOOD

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Ok maybe that isn't fair. We only got one day with Zamazenta-C, but it was enough to get a decent feel of how this mon fits into the tier. It certainly seems viable, it's just not the huge meta-breaking threat that I saw so many people hyping it up to be. At the start of a new generation when certain previously banned mons get added back to OU, it tends to be very obvious very quickly if something is broken (lol Genesect). Either that or you have mons that feel borderline broken but require the metagame to settle first before making a decision. This was not at all the impression that I got from using or playing against Zamazenta-C.

Some things that I observed about Zama while using it:
  • I chose to use Zama on a dual screens team because I felt this would be the playstyle it fits most naturally into. Probably 50% or more of the games that I used Zama, it ended up being dead weight offensively and I think I only got 1 sweep with it. With that said, it came in clutch quite often by using its massive defensive bulk to soft check mons that really threaten hyper offense (Rillaboom, scale shot Garchomp, even Hawlucha).
  • Echoing what Zneon said, 3 attacks (bash, cc, wild charge) + howl seems far and away the most effective set. It utilizes both STABs for the most damage output while still retaining really nice coverage. I experimented with howl + 2 attacks + safeguard/agility in the last slot and this did not pan out the way I hoped it would. 3 attacks is almost a necessity for Zama to have any kind of threatening coverage.​
  • Zamazenta has a piss poor status movepool. Like... virtually nonexistent. Howl is the obvious choice to boost offensive presence. Don't run work up. It has less PP than howl and since Zama has no unique coverage in its special movepool, there is essentially no point in using it.​
  • These traits, in combination with the inability to hold an item, make Zamazenta feel entirely one dimensional. You pretty much know at team preview what it's going to do. The only unknowns are what coverage options it is choosing to run, and it relies heavily on team support to diversify its offensive presence (dual screens, wish support, electric terrain, etc). I do think there are some under-explored techs like rest, sleep talk, substitute, and screens, but as of yet I haven't seen an effective use of these.​
  • Wild charge is such a great coverage move for Zamazenta. I'd recommend it on 3 attacks + howl over just about any other option. However, the main drawback of this move comes from the recoil. Zama's base 92 HP stat is alright at best and is usually uninvested. This means that you take a decent chunk of mostly unrecoverable recoil every time you use wild charge and a bunch of the targets for this move (Toxapex, Slowbro, Corviknight) commonly run rocky helmet thus compounding the recoil damage for every use of this move while failing to OHKO a majority of the time.​
  • It's noticably easier to check Zamazenta defensively than offensively. There are a number of defensive mons that Zama struggles with which are already viable and commonplace for their own reasons including Zapdos, Toxapex, Moltres, Slowbro, Lando-T, body press Corv/Skarm, Hippowdon, bulky Volcarona, and some less viable picks (Aegislash, Buzzwole, helmet Tang). Zama's presence in the tier doesn't really force unviable building choices from what I've seen.​
  • Zamazenta really shines vs offense teams where it is less likely to run into a defensive counter and can use its massive bulk to 1v1 a large number of mons. Do I think this makes it broken? No, not really but it's certainly a good niche for Zama.​

I find Zamazenta to be an interesting addition to the OU tier. It's a shame we only got 1 day to play with it (and that stupid fucking Dugtrio was unbanned the whole time LOL). Hoping that we get an actual, serious suspect test for this mon because I would for sure vote unban.

Free the dog
 
Man it's just me or Offensive Zamazenta feels underwhelming? It has a ton of defensive utility certainly. However it's has a huge flaw in chip damage. This is a huge flaw due to bypass its bulk and CC making it frailer means that its even easier to revenge kill. Offensive Zamazenta without Howl doesn't dish out a lot of damage(even adamant) and Zamazenta actually don't have a easy time to setup Howl. The best way I can seen it getting more than 2 howls is early game. Again there's phazing on pretty good mons, also if you're using Adamant Howl(which on my opinion its a bad set due to not outspeed Torn-T) and it still has a lot of defensive answers and Howl suffers from 4MSS meaning that Zapdos can wall sets without Ice Fang and Defensive Lando and Defensive Garchomp check(doens't wall because of Bash however non-Howl offensive sets loses HARD to these two without Howl on my opinion), non-Howl sets extremely easy to wall and still has the huge flaw of being easy to worn down with things like Rocky Helmet
Overall Howl sets are good and solid B or A material. However non howl sets are extremely flawed, easy to wall and really lacks power. I would like to make a comparison to ADV Regice/Snorlax because SS Zamazenta-C really feels the same way as these two. On the past they're extremely good mons, however on ADV new stages of the metagame Snorlax and Regice felt from grace because of the same flaw of Zamazenta in particular : Chip Damage. Making them unrealible as tanks(Snorlax still solid however not good as before; Regice felt really hard tho, from solid threat to pretty mediocre in average in ADV). While people don't like different metagame comparisons however I really felt the two cases are similar(and it's really the best way to make my brain work lol, as I like ADV don't see to be strange if I pull off some comparison because I found similar the cases)
So anyways on a short 1 line:
Howl Zamazenta - Pretty good despite the flaws, solid A or B material
Offensive Zamazenta (Non-Howl) - Pretty trash if I being honest. Lacks power and has the same flaws as Howl Zama. Adamant packs more flaws than useful trades. Overall use Howl Zama instead
Defensive Zama - Don't test it. However don't see it being good either. For a tank's biggest flaw being chip damage don't feel good or confortamble. Has the potential(Better than non-Howl Offensive Zama)
Have a great day! Feel free to disagree with this post. Just sharing my opinion from what really feel when I was using Zamazenta-C.
End of the post. Thanks for reading this
 
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idk if this goes here, but doesn't HO kind of get 6-0'd by Zamazenta-C? I mean, it's got great speed, great attack, great bulk, great coverage, and threatens HO staples like Bisharp (zama can just set up in its face unless low kick i think). I don't think Zamazenta-C will be a problem for balance and such because Tangrowth, Zapdos, and Hippowdon all are pretty common. Please let me know your opinions on this :)
 
idk if this goes here, but doesn't HO kind of get 6-0'd by Zamazenta-C? I mean, it's got great speed, great attack, great bulk, great coverage, and threatens HO staples like Bisharp (zama can just set up in its face unless low kick i think). I don't think Zamazenta-C will be a problem for balance and such because Tangrowth, Zapdos, and Hippowdon all are pretty common. Please let me know your opinions on this :)
Well, It's a good question. However i don't think so thanks to CC making it frailer, +1 Volc and Specs Pult don't have problems in killing it, However it's indeed golden against HO. Don't 6-0 but check it very well. Then I ask doesn't this make Zamazenta even more inconsistent? The fact that the only playstyles Zamazenta-C does well against is HO and Offense? Doesn't make it a matchup-fishy mon? And why being so scared of the good matchup? ORAS SD+Taunt Gliscor destroyed stall in ORAS, does it mean that in ORAS stall is unviable? No. Other Example: ADV Blaziken also destroyes the Standard team of ADV (TSS) does it mean that TSS is unviable? Absolutely not. In fact it's the only niche Blaziken has in ADV. Even that Zamazenta has a good Matchup against HO doesn't mean that the playstyle is unviable. It will make some tweaks to make the matchup against Zama better. The playstyle will adapt. My opinion is that HO has a bad matchup against Zama cores. However the playstyle still can adapt and on my opinion is not a issue. Since we also had in the past mons that are so good against a playstyle and does poorly against the others. So on a short line : The Matchup against offense is not a issue. It's just a strenght and niche of Zamazenta-C on the metagame.
 
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I have been gunning for a ZamaC test for over a year at this point. I’m really excited by the prospect of this mon joining the tier and the building possibilities it opens up. The arguments and replays I have seen point towards ZamaC being a good, but not great addition. Having another knock off/trick immunity around is definitely a net positive for OU. Let’s get this test done before GF decides to give it Body Press :smogduck:
 
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I have been gunning for a ZamaC test for over a year at this point. I’m really excited by the prospect of this mon joining the tier and the building possibilities it opens up. The arguments and replays I have seen point towards ZamaC being a good, but not great addition. Having another knock off/trick immunity around is definitely a net positive for OU. Let’s get this test done before GF decides to give it Body Press :smogduck:
A bit off topic, but at the rate Kyurem-Black finally got a proper physical ice STAB + boosting move, Zamazenta-Crowned is almost certainly going to be suspected and be stuck in OU for a couple of gens lol.
 
I could see victini rising as it does definitely have a niche, but we don't know how good it is, due to that it is in B on the viability rankings. Maybe boots sets will be viable though, as I could see it being a nice pivot for volt/flip/u-turn teams, yes it gets hardwalled by heatran and gets absolutely screwed by dragapult, but I feel like it could still be pretty viable. It also likes the fact that tornadus-therian can get rid of rocks for it to freely click band or scarfed. Maybe it will even rise to b+ on the next viability page. Overall, current victini in ou feels like a mix between oras and sm meta victini, but I do think it is more along the lines of sm victini minus z-moves.
 
I could see victini rising as it does definitely have a niche, but we don't know how good it is, due to that it is in B on the viability rankings. Maybe boots sets will be viable though, as I could see it being a nice pivot for volt/flip/u-turn teams, yes it gets hardwalled by heatran and gets absolutely screwed by dragapult, but I feel like it could still be pretty viable. It also likes the fact that tornadus-therian can get rid of rocks for it to freely click band or scarfed. Maybe it will even rise to b+ on the next viability page. Overall, current victini in ou feels like a mix between oras and sm meta victini, but I do think it is more along the lines of sm victini minus z-moves.
I feel it's worthy of note that with quite a bit of SpAtt investment it can 2HKO both SpDef Heatran and Dragapult on the switch with SR chip with Scorching Sands and Glaciate (which reduces Speed) respectively
 
Victini to me just seems to have a massive amount of versatility in its sets, with boots,scarf,and band all looking pretty viable. boots is a decent pivot that can sometimes just rip a v-create and band hits hard AF basically deleting any non resists with v-create

Most of my personal experience with it comes from trying to put together an offensive regieleki team that doesn't totally suck, and there scarfed max HP victini with final gambit proved to be quite reliable at taking opposing ground types out if played well, and in general seems to be a pretty nice option for heavily offensive teams that just need to take out one opposing mon that walls your team(unless it's blissey, but you can trick that), and dont mind going 1 for 1. fast u-turn also makes it a decent lead(in my case it was final gambit if lando/pert/hippo, u-turn out otherwise), and trick cripples walls
 
Do you have an exact EV spread for this?
Here you go

168 SpA Victini Scorching Sands vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 184-220 (47.6 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
168 SpA Victini Glaciate vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 140-166 (44.1 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Victini Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 192-228 (59.4 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

168 SpA investment would probably fit best either a 4 attack or pivot set with max Speed and the rest poured into Attack. Victini's HBD sets can be quite versatile depending on which mon you feel is a particular threat. Although even with 0 SpA investment it still always 2HKOs Offensive Heatran. Glaciate can also be a perfect lure for any Lando or Chomp eager to switch in predicting a V-create, 2HKOing both on the switch with 0 SpA and with quite a bit of investment even 1HKOing Scarf Lando with SR support.

0 SpA Victini Glaciate vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 224-268 (58.6 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
220 SpA Victini Glaciate vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 280-332 (87.7 - 104%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Victini Glaciate vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 216-256 (60.5 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
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