Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

If we are talking about in-battle scenarios we also need to address these factors: corviknight commonly runs rocky helmet but, even if it runs leftovers, almost every Pokémon it switches into will take away its item. Weavile and Kartana are two prime examples. Furthermore, your own Corviknight is already a great partner for this Garchomp defensively, but you can also use it to grab chip damage with rocky helmet on predicted u-turns, or drain its defog pp with pressure. lastly, with the uptick in scarf lele over specs, some corviknights don't even have spdef investment so the rolls are better.

In short, corviknight's item isn't an issue in game and it's quite easy to force even small chip damage on it to bring it into fire blast 2hko range, or use your corviknight to both force chip and drain defog pp. this chomp is trying to be bulky and not an offensive lure, too.
In that case, there's a few other EV spreads you could look at eg:
180 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 168-198 (42.1 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (min roll 168 damage)-kills after Rocky Helmet chip.
I agree on what you say, assuming some amount of chip is appropriate, but assuming rocks specifically is incorrect. I think it would probably be better to decide on a speed tier, just dump the rest into SpA then work to chip Corv into whatever range you need it at.
EVs: (12 Def) / 180-192 SpA / 252 SpD / 64 Spe
Sassy Nature
For instance, this outruns max speed Arctozolt outside Hail, as well as non +spe base 65 and below, and anything uninvested below 97. Obviously you can play around with the exact EVs and nature, but it's entirely team-dependent at the end of the day.
Found some more replays from the HO user on high ladder.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1435390851
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1435390851
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1435316757

Who says both Arctovish and Arctozolt must be on the same squad? Arctozolt can easily be replaced by Regieleki, who’s faster than scarf Kartana with max speed which eliminates the speed control issue and still gives you a strong Electric-type Pokemon. On top of that, Regieleki has Rapid Spin, which would support hail teams in removing hazards as well. The Scizor/Landorus in the replay I shared in my last post here obviously has Defog; maybe even both of them do. Hazards removal doesn’t get easier than this combo.

You’re probably asking: who in their right mind would use Arctovish over Arctozolt in hail teams, though? Valid question. This is where creativity comes in. I ask that people actually play with Arctovish and see its damage output and how terrorizing it has the potential to be before making any passing judgements.
I wasn't saying Arctovish was unviable, just pointing out the teambuilding difficulties it brings. I did not say "impossible" to fit hazard control, as that team clearly shows it is possible. However it is constraining on teambuilding, which gives you less freedom to work with and opens up other holes (eg: put a Scarf Blace against this team and it wins the moment lando is chipped as the team has no ghost resist and the ghost-weak Bro as its only fire resist. You can see that in the last replay as Delmise forces a kill the moment it comes in and a fast scarfer would cause major issues from here).

As for Vish>Zolt, they should both have distinct enough niches from their differing checks to warrant usage on differing teams. I will say Vish's slightly lower power (as well as lack of Strong Jaw compared to LORD VISH) does make it a bit more possible to wall with mons like Pex (even LO freeze dry doesn't really concern physdef versions without large SpA investment). The bit I'm concerned about is the Regieleki, though I've seen some really cool teams with that recently so I'll reserve judgement (I would imagine it pairs better with Arctozolt though since Zolt forces grounds in on Ice moves for it).
 
In that case, there's a few other EV spreads you could look at eg:
180 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 168-198 (42.1 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (min roll 168 damage)-kills after Rocky Helmet chip.
I agree on what you say, assuming some amount of chip is appropriate, but assuming rocks specifically is incorrect. I think it would probably be better to decide on a speed tier, just dump the rest into SpA then work to chip Corv into whatever range you need it at.
EVs: (12 Def) / 180-192 SpA / 252 SpD / 64 Spe
Sassy Nature
For instance, this outruns max speed Arctozolt outside Hail, as well as non +spe base 65 and below, and anything uninvested below 97. Obviously you can play around with the exact EVs and nature, but it's entirely team-dependent at the end of the day.
You actually bring up a very good point about what chip damage to consider in this scenario. Having Corviknight or a Defiant user in the back might condition the opponent to avoid clicking Defog and allow you to keep them up. The stealth rock scenario depends on team composition, but your spread maintains effectiveness and is more likely to occur on a regular basis. Very insightful reply, thank you.
 
Ok finch wanted reasoning for my quagsire to UR nom so here you go
Quagsire vs Toxapex/Gastrodon
Ok statspreads first but its HP/DEF/SPDEF because these mons are NOT used for offense
Toxapex:
50/152/142
Gastrodon:
112/68/82
Quagsire:
95/85/65
I'd say toxapex comes out on top there. Obviously 50 hp sucks but its def and spdef are so much better than the other 2
Obviously, stats aren't everything, so on to defensive typing!
Toxapex: Poison/Water (12% stealth rock)
Gastrodon and Quagsire: Ground/Water (6% stealth rock)
(btw the *number*% stealth rock is how much hp lost from stealth rock)
Toxapex resists: Bug, Fairy, Fighting, Fire, Ice, Poison, Steel, Water
Toxapex is weak to: Electric, Ground, Psychic
Toxapex is immune to: Toxic
Gastrodon and Quagsire resist: Fire, Poison, Rock, Steel
Gastrodon and Quagsire are weak to: Grass (4x weakness)
Gastrodon and Quagsire are immune to: Electric, Sandstorm damage
Toxapex: Upsides and downsides:
Toxapex can soak up toxics and resists a whole lot more than the other 2 whilst not being weak to grass. does have more weaknesses to worry about, somewhat easier to chip (this is kinda irrelevant and I'll get to that later in the post) and also can't soak up electric moves.
Quagsire and gastrodon: Upsides and downsides
1 weakness to toxapex's 3, however this is a much thinner rope to grab because that one weakness is a quad weakness. they do take less from stealth rock and soak up electric moves which is nice. However they have a lot less resistances than pex which means less stuff you can wall with your typing. But you do fare better against heatran which is good.
Part 3: Abilities
Toxapex:
Regenerator
This is a super handy tool when you can't escape a 2HKO with recover and come in on something you wall to recover later. this also renders stealth rock nearly useless which is nice..
Gastrodon: Sticky hold OR Storm drain
Sticky hold: Honestly I'd rather run storm drain to soft check waters but being a good knock off soaker is nice
Storm drain: Soft check alot of waters that way and wall washtom.
Quagsire:
Unaware OR water absorb
Water absorb: ehhhhh gastrodon is pretty much better at water softchecking so meh, you also give up on unaware.
Unaware: Clefable is better for this ngl, because it can cm.
Movepool:
very similar. All can spread toxic, get scald burns, and recover. heres the main draw of a move for each pokemon
Toxapex: Toxic spikes allows pex to spread poison throughout the game, even when not on the field. To spread it to the fullest it enjoys pokemon that can force lots of switches.
Gastrodon: earth power isn't really the biggest draw on earth but you hit tran ig?
Quagsire: A gastrodon scenario but with earthquake.
I'd say pex comes out on top here.
 

Baloor

the boardwalk king
is a Tiering Contributor
Ok finch wanted reasoning for my quagsire to UR nom so here you go
Quagsire vs Toxapex/Gastrodon
Ok statspreads first but its HP/DEF/SPDEF because these mons are NOT used for offense
Toxapex:
50/152/142
Gastrodon:
112/68/82
Quagsire:
95/85/65
I'd say toxapex comes out on top there. Obviously 50 hp sucks but its def and spdef are so much better than the other 2
Obviously, stats aren't everything, so on to defensive typing!
Toxapex: Poison/Water (12% stealth rock)
Gastrodon and Quagsire: Ground/Water (6% stealth rock)
(btw the *number*% stealth rock is how much hp lost from stealth rock)
Toxapex resists: Bug, Fairy, Fighting, Fire, Ice, Poison, Steel, Water
Toxapex is weak to: Electric, Ground, Psychic
Toxapex is immune to: Toxic
Gastrodon and Quagsire resist: Fire, Poison, Rock, Steel
Gastrodon and Quagsire are weak to: Grass (4x weakness)
Gastrodon and Quagsire are immune to: Electric, Sandstorm damage
Toxapex: Upsides and downsides:
Toxapex can soak up toxics and resists a whole lot more than the other 2 whilst not being weak to grass. does have more weaknesses to worry about, somewhat easier to chip (this is kinda irrelevant and I'll get to that later in the post) and also can't soak up electric moves.
Quagsire and gastrodon: Upsides and downsides
1 weakness to toxapex's 3, however this is a much thinner rope to grab because that one weakness is a quad weakness. they do take less from stealth rock and soak up electric moves which is nice. However they have a lot less resistances than pex which means less stuff you can wall with your typing. But you do fare better against heatran which is good.
Part 3: Abilities
Toxapex:
Regenerator
This is a super handy tool when you can't escape a 2HKO with recover and come in on something you wall to recover later. this also renders stealth rock nearly useless which is nice..
Gastrodon: Sticky hold OR Storm drain
Sticky hold: Honestly I'd rather run storm drain to soft check waters but being a good knock off soaker is nice
Storm drain: Soft check alot of waters that way and wall washtom.
Quagsire:
Unaware OR water absorb
Water absorb: ehhhhh gastrodon is pretty much better at water softchecking so meh, you also give up on unaware.
Unaware: Clefable is better for this ngl, because it can cm.
Movepool:
very similar. All can spread toxic, get scald burns, and recover. heres the main draw of a move for each pokemon
Toxapex: Toxic spikes allows pex to spread poison throughout the game, even when not on the field. To spread it to the fullest it enjoys pokemon that can force lots of switches.
Gastrodon: earth power isn't really the biggest draw on earth but you hit tran ig?
Quagsire: A gastrodon scenario but with earthquake.
I'd say pex comes out on top here.
my adhd rly hates this formatting.

your argument falls flat because its based around the assumption that quag is competing for a slot with pex/gastro. which its not. quag is a very poor water resist, so quag is never going to be in the same league as pex/gastro in this department. in fact, some stall teams stack quag and pex together. the reason for that being quags niche in ou is because of its ground typing and unaware, which are two things heavily desired on stall teams. you can make a argument that quag is outclassed in both roles but clefable and other ground types, which then would make this entire UR thing have a backbone. however, being able to use quag as a role compression for both of those slots can be very beneficial for some stall teams. is quag the best? no, far from it. it has some very glaring weaknesses which are reflective in its rank but its niche cements quagsire far from unviable. not every stall team is going to want to spam clefable and not every stall team is gonna wanna spam hippo.

e: i fell for the bait
 
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my adhd rly hates this formatting.

your argument falls flat because its based around the assumption that quag is competing for a slot with pex/gastro. which its not. quag is a very poor water resist, so quag is never going to be in the same league as pex/gastro in this department. in fact, some stall teams stack quag and pex together. the reason for that being quags niche in ou is because of its ground typing and unaware, which are two things heavily desired on stall teams. you can make a argument that quag is outclassed in both roles but clefable and other ground types, which then would make this entire UR thing have a backbone. however, being able to use quag as a role compression for both of those slots can be very beneficial for some stall teams. is quag the best? no, far from it. it has some very glaring weaknesses which are reflective in its rank but its niche cements quagsire far from unviable. not every stall team is going to want to spam clefable and not every stall team is gonna wanna spam hippo.
I would like to add to this, quagsire's other niche in stall is an unaware user that also soft checks heatran and hard counters magnezone, both of which give clefable and stall in general a very hard time. It is also a great stop to pads melmetal since it is immune to or resists everything except superpower, and we know how much that is a problem to stall.
there are also several more reasons to have quagsire as your unaware user over clef; clef's very mediocre physical bulk means that it can't reliably switch into some things it should be checking, for example:

252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 172-203 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 172-203 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
so the increase in bulk is quite important.
Clef is also a much more versatile mon than quagsire, so you can do some other stuff with it and have quagsire covering the unaware role(indeed my favorite team this gen has pex,quag and clef on it, and barb clef is lowkey pretty decent on stall), like rocker or cleric

Yes quagsire has a quad weakness, but it is probably the easiest quad weakness to cover with your teammates ever, since just slapping in a metal bird is a pretty decent solution to its weakness, and the metal birds appreciate quaggy's ability to stave off tran and zone, so it just slots into stall builds quite naturally. The only two viable attackers that use the typing are kartana and rillaboom, and kartana trucks clefable with smart strike or 2hkos with LO leaf blade depending on set, so unaware clef still isnt much better than quagsire against it, and rilla has fallen off quite drastically

The comparison to gastro seems reasonable on the outside, but they don't really serve the same niche on stall, as one is an unaware physical wall, while the other is a watrer immune special wall; they are both very good on stall but offer different kinds of role compression despite their same typing

EDIT: as an aside, I really don't get why people focus so much on using cm unaware clef on stall and the opsession with always having a sweeper. an unaware mons role on a stall team is not to sweep(most of the time), it's to prevent you from getting swept, and people constantly try to say that clef is a better unaware user because of cm even though the drop in bulk makes it much weaker to just getting hit neutrally by unboosted attacks, which is kind of the whole point
 
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ausma

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Ok finch wanted reasoning for my quagsire to UR nom so here you go
Quagsire vs Toxapex/Gastrodon
Ok statspreads first but its HP/DEF/SPDEF because these mons are NOT used for offense
Toxapex:
50/152/142
Gastrodon:
112/68/82
Quagsire:
95/85/65
I'd say toxapex comes out on top there. Obviously 50 hp sucks but its def and spdef are so much better than the other 2
Obviously, stats aren't everything, so on to defensive typing!
Toxapex: Poison/Water (12% stealth rock)
Gastrodon and Quagsire: Ground/Water (6% stealth rock)
(btw the *number*% stealth rock is how much hp lost from stealth rock)
Toxapex resists: Bug, Fairy, Fighting, Fire, Ice, Poison, Steel, Water
Toxapex is weak to: Electric, Ground, Psychic
Toxapex is immune to: Toxic
Gastrodon and Quagsire resist: Fire, Poison, Rock, Steel
Gastrodon and Quagsire are weak to: Grass (4x weakness)
Gastrodon and Quagsire are immune to: Electric, Sandstorm damage
Toxapex: Upsides and downsides:
Toxapex can soak up toxics and resists a whole lot more than the other 2 whilst not being weak to grass. does have more weaknesses to worry about, somewhat easier to chip (this is kinda irrelevant and I'll get to that later in the post) and also can't soak up electric moves.
Quagsire and gastrodon: Upsides and downsides
1 weakness to toxapex's 3, however this is a much thinner rope to grab because that one weakness is a quad weakness. they do take less from stealth rock and soak up electric moves which is nice. However they have a lot less resistances than pex which means less stuff you can wall with your typing. But you do fare better against heatran which is good.
Part 3: Abilities
Toxapex:
Regenerator
This is a super handy tool when you can't escape a 2HKO with recover and come in on something you wall to recover later. this also renders stealth rock nearly useless which is nice..
Gastrodon: Sticky hold OR Storm drain
Sticky hold: Honestly I'd rather run storm drain to soft check waters but being a good knock off soaker is nice
Storm drain: Soft check alot of waters that way and wall washtom.
Quagsire:
Unaware OR water absorb
Water absorb: ehhhhh gastrodon is pretty much better at water softchecking so meh, you also give up on unaware.
Unaware: Clefable is better for this ngl, because it can cm.
Movepool:
very similar. All can spread toxic, get scald burns, and recover. heres the main draw of a move for each pokemon
Toxapex: Toxic spikes allows pex to spread poison throughout the game, even when not on the field. To spread it to the fullest it enjoys pokemon that can force lots of switches.
Gastrodon: earth power isn't really the biggest draw on earth but you hit tran ig?
Quagsire: A gastrodon scenario but with earthquake.
I'd say pex comes out on top here.
Here to say really quickly not to repost posts from the VR thread in the metagame discussion thread to derail discussion please

I'll be deleting posts replying to this going forward since it's not meant to be taken seriously; however please bear in mind that troll posts like these will not be tolerated and I'll be keeping this post up to keep things transparent. Thanks for your understanding and have a good weekend everyone!
 
Corviknight is overrated.

I've seen it on balances more and more, but the problem I have with Corviknight is that it inflicts upon itself the exact same system of turns that made Darkfu and Cinderace broken. Wicked Blow did enough to everything in the tier that it forced a recovery move, letting the opponent double and be in a position of advantage (even if a Darkfu hit a Clefable at full with a Wicked Blow). This made it so that clicking Wicked Blow was basically 0 Drawback. Cinderace created a similar situation, doing enough with Pyro Ball that even solid checks like Hippowdon were forced to recover, while Cinderace clicked U-turn and got the advantage. Corviknight does this to itself every single turn. The opponent goes for Stealth Rocks. Corviknight clicks Defog. Let's use Landorus as an example. Landorus can click SR a few times, Corv may U-turn out, letting rocks up and putting the Landorus user in a good spot (as Corviknight teams never appreciate hazards much). The other end is that Corviknight stays in to Defog consistently, letting the Landorus user get a free switch to whatever pokemon they want, like a Victini, Tapu Koko, Kyurem, etc. Which ALSO makes Corviknight in disadvantage. Corviknight is the king of losing situations like this and being put in disadvantage. Corviknight, meanwhile, can hardly touch most hazard setters, being unable to use Knock Off or Toxic. Even a pokemon like Hippowdon, which Corviknight can stall out Stealth Rocks, leads to the Hippowdon user getting a free switch. When your opponent gets a free switch (into a breaker, most often) you need a fat team to handle this. An offense cannot stand having a Victini come in for free, while a stall team can. It is for this reason that I feel Corviknight is a stall pokemon, and should generally be used less on balances than I'm seeing. There are a few other reasons not to use Corviknight, such as Magnezone, the fact that Ferrothorn forces it out with Body Press + Leech Seed, and a few other small small things that harm it, but the biggest problem is that it either lets up hazards or lets in a breaker EVERY SINGLE TIME it comes in.
 
Corviknight is overrated.

I've seen it on balances more and more, but the problem I have with Corviknight is that it inflicts upon itself the exact same system of turns that made Darkfu and Cinderace broken. Wicked Blow did enough to everything in the tier that it forced a recovery move, letting the opponent double and be in a position of advantage (even if a Darkfu hit a Clefable at full with a Wicked Blow). This made it so that clicking Wicked Blow was basically 0 Drawback. Cinderace created a similar situation, doing enough with Pyro Ball that even solid checks like Hippowdon were forced to recover, while Cinderace clicked U-turn and got the advantage. Corviknight does this to itself every single turn. The opponent goes for Stealth Rocks. Corviknight clicks Defog. Let's use Landorus as an example. Landorus can click SR a few times, Corv may U-turn out, letting rocks up and putting the Landorus user in a good spot (as Corviknight teams never appreciate hazards much). The other end is that Corviknight stays in to Defog consistently, letting the Landorus user get a free switch to whatever pokemon they want, like a Victini, Tapu Koko, Kyurem, etc. Which ALSO makes Corviknight in disadvantage. Corviknight is the king of losing situations like this and being put in disadvantage. Corviknight, meanwhile, can hardly touch most hazard setters, being unable to use Knock Off or Toxic. Even a pokemon like Hippowdon, which Corviknight can stall out Stealth Rocks, leads to the Hippowdon user getting a free switch. When your opponent gets a free switch (into a breaker, most often) you need a fat team to handle this. An offense cannot stand having a Victini come in for free, while a stall team can. It is for this reason that I feel Corviknight is a stall pokemon, and should generally be used less on balances than I'm seeing. There are a few other reasons not to use Corviknight, such as Magnezone, the fact that Ferrothorn forces it out with Body Press + Leech Seed, and a few other small small things that harm it, but the biggest problem is that it either lets up hazards or lets in a breaker EVERY SINGLE TIME it comes in.
Yeah, I agree with this sentiment (specifically for Defog Corviknight). In most cases where I found it threatening, it was typically being used on a stall build. Something like Tapu Koko or Victini coming for free was significantly less troublesome when there is a sturdy mon like Hippowdon that could take and recover from the blow. Since Stall games tend to last longer, Pressure also ends up working way better at stalling out moves. Combined with its Toxic Immunity and it becomes a vital tool in these longer games.

IMO Skarmory is a better utility pick on Balance teams. Despite not being as good at checking special attacks, its able to pressure incoming wallbreakers like Tapu Koko and Victini with either Toxic or Whirlwind, and Spikes are pretty useful to help your own offensive mons better pressure the opponent.

I haven't tried this myself, but on balance teams, dropping Defog for Iron Defense doesn't seem like a terrible idea just to drastically improve Corv's 1v1 matchups. You are able to apply much more immediate pressure to mons like Garchomp, Dragonite, Melmetal, etc. Physical wallbreakers like Victini can't actually come in for free anymore since you are only taking 50% from V-Create at +2, letting you actually stall it out. Against special wallbreakers like Tapu Koko and Blacephalon, you can still pivot out with U-turn so they can't grab momentum.
 
Just a quick thought on :Kyurem: and the 10% freeze.

this is playing odds , and freeze is powerful, so it makes Kyurem better.

however all Pokémon is about playing odds, literally everything from choosing flamethrower over fire blast , to avoiding Pokémon that rely on focus blast and hurricane.

even matchups are about odds, you might have a fun team you enjoy that’s particularly weak to a well played banded Melmetal, or maybe you have a hard time every time you come across a wall breaking Tapu fini..

I mean if 10% freeze is the reason Kyurem is over the edge… then what about 20% chance for dragapult to break its checks? The speed is almost uncontested



Kyurem is probably more annoying due to its natural bulk in addition to the power of its moves. Seriously it’s impressive that it can survive specs psychic from lele!



Odds sometimes don’t work out… it is what it is.. it’s true that a strong Pokémon is sometimes x% chance away from breaking past its checks, or incapacitating them for the game. But that’s not what makes it great, you just need to play the odds and over many games you’ll come out on top.



here’s an example of Volcarona breaking past two of its best checks due to odds (0.06 x 0.1 = 0.6% chance)… does that make it broken, because you have to rely on shitty rock moves to counter it only 90% of the time ?

13AA1CD9-349B-4647-BA2C-50D650181B72.jpeg


personally I think the ability for an occasional freeze to force progress is a good thing. We need more of it in OU to prevent games dragging out. Personally I am a big fan of stall and slow moving teams being punished by the 10-30% secondary effects and the 6.25% crit rate. It disincentives the endless spam of recovery moves!
 
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ausma

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Kyurem exerts an unhealthy effect on the metagame.

A while ago, I made a post about Tapu Lele and the impact it exerts on Steel-types in the tier with its unique dual STAB combination. While at the time I did not view Tapu Lele as a broken force, I did feel there was a dangerous kind of pressure on Steel-types that made it exceedingly difficult for them to keep things like the aforementioned Tapu Lele, Weavile, and Dragapult in check at a given time. While Pokemon like Weavile and Dragapult could be blanket checked with other options, Tapu Lele created, in my eyes, a very one-of-a-kind pressure to Steel-types--which often are utilized to reinforce a team's backbone due to their wide range of resistances and positive matchups against the tier's array of wallbreakers. To me, I felt Tapu Lele was the big perpetrator of this problem even if it wasn't banworthy in itself. But, I observe now that Kyurem does something very similar and to a genuinely problematic extent due to its access to both Ice Beam and Freeze-Dry generally mandating the already highly relied upon Steel-types to check its main STABs in addition to everything else they're tasked to check, as well as Earth Power further cracking down on this pool of checks.

Although it is a Pokemon with several noteworthy caveats, such as a Stealth Rock weakness and a mediocre speed tier; it is one of our tier's strongest and most versatile wallbreakers. As of late, we've been seeing a lot more Kyurem, and this is not surprising whatsoever. With its wide array of dangerous offensive sets, ranging from the classic SubRoost to SubDD, Choice Specs, and the newly discovered Never-Melt Ice, it is a Pokemon that has historically been very difficult to play around in SS OU and continues to be to this day. Furthermore, it exploits many of our tier's common backbones; its new access to Freeze-Dry allows for it to apply consistent pressure to common bulky Water-types such as Tapu Fini and Toxapex which tend to round off many of the tier's bulky offenses and balances respectively. As a consequence, in a somewhat similar vein to Tapu Lele, it applies a very unrelenting, forcible pressure on Steel-types that forces players to play and build with them much more deliberately than we are used to, arguably to a constraining extent. While bulky Water-types can help pigeonhole Kyurem into Freeze-Dry, pivoting with your Steel-types is still very troubling, especially if it is not Choice-locked and is able to then pick your Heatran or Melmetal off with an Earth Power. Never-Melt Ice, its latest and most hip set, fully capitalizes upon this by taking advantage of Kyurem's access to Roost and general disregard for Scald by combining the general breaking power of its Choice Specs-boosted Ice-type STAB and the general lack of need to predict that we see with its Substitute variants. In addition to being near impossible to switch into safely, it has the typing and longevity to find many wallbreaking opportunities throughout the game. This, consequently, leaves Scizor and Specially Defensive Ferrothorn as among the few Steel-types able to keep it tempered, and only a few other fringe options like Blissey and bulky Volcarona that tend to be tasked to provide a reliable Ice-type pivot that is also able to take on Earth Power. The former, however, is heavily exploited by Choice Specs Focus Blast, SubRoost, and SubDD, leaving Volcarona as the only true counter to its main sets (which generally disclude Draco Meteor). Bulky Offenses that do not employ these 4 Pokemon tend to have an egregious time playing around it defensively and generally are forced into revenge killing it either by first losing a Pokemon or winning 50/50s more often than not.

Even without factoring in the Freeze conversation we've been seeing a lot of that can render theoretically all of its potential counterplay moot as is, I would argue these merits alone elevate Kyurem into a realm of its own. It is a premier wall-breaking force that is very difficult to switch into without dedicated answers; among the Pokemon that can attempt to check it without pigeonholing you into one or two specific options, the pool is very small. While I recognize that Kyurem is not without its counterplay (to say it doesn't have counterplay is ridiculous), there is a reason I believe it is unhealthy, as opposed to outright broken, and that boils down to its effect on the way we build our teams, as well as the pressure it exerts on Steel-types in execution (as explained above). This is especially apparent within offenses that tend not to enjoy using Blissey for its general passivity or Volcarona for its crippling polarity, which Kyurem feasts upon; in fact, a very popular replay that demonstrates the weakness in generally optimal cores that Kyurem is able to exploit is the SCL game between BIHI and Finchinator.

Should it be banned? I personally am leaning more toward it being an unbalanced force in the metagame. Even if it turns out to not be unhealthy, I do believe suspecting it is a reasonable approach that will allow us to spend a good amount of time to evaluate its impact on the metagame at large, especially given how healthy and solidly balanced the metagame is otherwise.
 
Just a quick thought on :Kyurem: and the 10% freeze.

this is playing odds , and freeze is powerful, so it makes Kyurem better.

however all Pokémon is about playing odds, literally everything from choosing flamethrower over fire blast , to avoiding Pokémon that rely on focus blast and hurricane.

even matchups are about odds, you might have a fun team you enjoy that’s particularly weak to a well played banded Melmetal, or maybe you have a hard time every time you come across a wall breaking Tapu fini..

I mean if 10% freeze is the reason Kyurem is over the edge… then what about 20% chance for dragapult to break its checks? The speed is almost uncontested



Kyurem is probably more annoying due to its natural bulk in addition to the power of its moves. Seriously it’s impressive that it can survive specs psychic from lele!



Odds sometimes don’t work out… it is what it is.. it’s true that a strong Pokémon is sometimes x% chance away from breaking past its checks, or incapacitating them for the game. But that’s not what makes it great, you just need to play the odds and over many games you’ll come out on top.



here’s an example of Volcarona breaking past two of its best checks due to odds (0.06 x 0.1 = 0.6% chance)… does that make it broken, because you have to rely on shitty rock moves to counter it only 90% of the time ?

View attachment 377928

personally I think the ability for an occasional freeze to force progress is a good thing. We need more of it in OU to prevent games dragging out. Personally I am a big fan of stall and slow moving teams being punished by the 10-30% secondary effects and the 6.25% crit rate. It disincentives the endless spam of recovery moves!
If you have not read my original post on page 158, please do so. It shows how likely freezing really is, and how unlikely unfreezing is in the context of a game. As for the "but what about Dragapult Shadow Ball and other hax" I have adressed this as well in this discussion, I would highly recommend reading past discussion posts so we don't rehash tired points. I'm really shocked though that you used that Volcarona as an example... how many games does Volcarona win due to dodging rock moves? Way, way, way less than Kyurem wins due to freezes, since Volcarona only has one shot whereas Kyurem has often tons of shots. This comparison is frankly absurd from a statistical standpoint.

"Personally I am a big fan of stall and slow moving teams being punished by the 10-30% secondary effects and the 6.25% crit rate. It disincentives the endless spam of recovery moves!"

Kyurem freezing is a HUGE asset to stall, which often utilizes bulky Kyurem and freezes balance teams. Freezing does not hurt stall basically at all, due to utilizing Natural Cure Blissey. Crits hurt stall, and I love those, though that's not what this is about. But saying Kyurem freezes hurt stall? Very much the opposite.
 
If you have not read my original post on page 158, please do so. It shows how likely freezing really is, and how unlikely unfreezing is in the context of a game. As for the "but what about Dragapult Shadow Ball and other hax" I have adressed this as well in this discussion, I would highly recommend reading past discussion posts so we don't rehash tired points. I'm really shocked though that you used that Volcarona as an example... how many games does Volcarona win due to dodging rock moves? Way, way, way less than Kyurem wins due to freezes, since Volcarona only has one shot whereas Kyurem has often tons of shots. This comparison is frankly absurd from a statistical standpoint.

"Personally I am a big fan of stall and slow moving teams being punished by the 10-30% secondary effects and the 6.25% crit rate. It disincentives the endless spam of recovery moves!"

Kyurem freezing is a HUGE asset to stall, which often utilizes bulky Kyurem and freezes balance teams. Freezing does not hurt stall basically at all, due to utilizing Natural Cure Blissey. Crits hurt stall, and I love those, though that's not what this is about. But saying Kyurem freezes hurt stall? Very much the opposite.
yes I read through them all, Kyurem doesn’t force out as many offensive threats as a specs pult, due to its speed. it’s also much less efficient in the end game, tho it makes up for that with early and mid game potency.

Your team can be weak to Kyurem because it relies on switching into ice beams 3-5x times on average per match against Kyurem. If you’re highly concerned about the higher odds for a freeze, then maybe try to get more of those ice beam/freeze dry absorbers to pack scald or switch into fire moves. Or re-adjust the team so you’re risking 1-3 ice moves per match instead.

sounds like a matchup issue..

I have teams weak to Kartana, Weavile, dragapult, blacephalon, and all the other top hard hitting threats. They’re top Threats for a reason.

the SCL game posted above was a great example of a Kyurem weak team with minimum options that outspend it and almost every Pokémon on the team being weak to one of its moves (so not just neutral). Throw in some high risk moves and a game can swing wildly, as we saw with the 6-0. We’ve all been 6-0’d before! You then adapt..

In that anecdote: if you want the luxury of packing super high utility, extremely viable Pokémon’s like landorus, heatran and fini, then you need to balance it out by covering their biggest threats.
 
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With regard to Arctovish:
:ss/Arctovish:
It seems cool on paper at least, but there is quite a few notable issues with it (beyond the obvious defensive issue of stacking 3 Ice types on one team).
:choice_scarf:
1. Speed control. Both of them fall short of base 90+ max speed scarfers. While it's true they don't necessarily lose to the exactly the same scarfers (eg: Vish lives Edge from scarfed Lando as long as rocks are off the field), having a mon faster than them does half the power of their formidable STABs, so you'll need a 4th mon on the team to deal with Scarfers in some way. This together with the typing issue limits teambuilding around the three of them a lot.
:icy_rock:
2. Reliance on hail. Having two mons on your team completely dependent on hail to function means you have to keep the hail setter alive. This somewhat sacrifices the flexibility of traditional hail teams, where Alolatails's main role was Hail, Veil, done, then let Zolt punch holes. Tails dies? That's ok you have 4 mons left who don't care about whether hail is up or not. Zolt dies? Tails can still set Veil for everyone else before joining it. With Lesser Vish in the equation, Tails suddenly can't afford to die. Which brings me nicely to:
:heavy_duty_boots:
3. Hazards and hazard control. With 3 Ice types on your team, you need good hazard control. Especially if you plan on Tails living a long and healthy life. This further limits teambuilding around these three. And what's more, you probably will struggle to fit your own hazards, which lets defensive mons pivot around without punishment, and gives your opponent much less incentive to Defog for you. It's true Zolt and maybe Vish can run Boots to mitigate this issue, but Tails simply cannot, and as mentioned above you now care very much about Tails' lifespan.
On Garchomp:

Hmm. Seems nice, but I think in practice Corv will be swapping in as rocks go up. This of course means no SR damage and now the calc probably looks like this:
228 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Corviknight: 176-208 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
and Fire Blast is now being PP stalled comfortably. The only reason I can think of to not go hard Corv into this Chomp is if it's set is totally unrevealed and the opposition fears an offensive set. That or you pair this with Magnezone, at which point Fire Blast is redundant. I like the idea though!
By the way., the name is Alolan Ninetales. The gimmick is that Ninetales is based on a mythological creature, and is in Pokemon;

Other than that, I think you bring up nice points. Aurora Veil Hail Teams really need to watch that Ice weakness...
 
yes I read through them all, Kyurem doesn’t force out as many offensive threats as a specs pult, due to its speed. it’s also much less efficient in the end game, tho it makes up for that with early and mid game potency.

Your team can be weak to Kyurem because it relies on switching into ice beams 3-5x times on average per match against Kyurem. If you’re highly concerned about the higher odds for a freeze, then maybe try to get more of those ice beam/freeze dry absorbers to pack scald or switch into fire moves. Or re-adjust the team so you’re risking 1-3 ice moves per match instead.

sounds like a matchup issue..

I have teams weak to Kartana, Weavile, dragapult, blacephalon, and all the other top hard hitting threats. They’re top Threats for a reason.

the SCL game posted above was a great example of a Kyurem weak team with minimum options that outspend it and almost every Pokémon on the team being weak to one of its moves (so not just neutral). Throw in some high risk moves and a game can swing wildly, as we saw with the 6-0. We’ve all been 6-0’d before! You then adapt..

In that anecdote: if you want the luxury of packing super high utility, extremely viable Pokémon’s like landorus, heatran and fini, then you need to balance it out by covering their biggest threats.
All correct points, but you are ignoring a few key facts.

1.) Pokemon with scald lose to Kyurem. The only exception is AV Slowking-G, which we can hardly start telling people to run if they don't like freezes. As for switching into fire moves, you know this is not realistic. Fire moves are generally super rare in the tier right now, the main two being V Create and Magma Storm... which are not easy to switch in on. There is no matchup issue that makes freezing a problem, it is a problem for all but the most specifically anti-freeze tailored teams.

2.) I think Dragapult is better than Kyurem. This is not my argument-- the problem is that Dragapult doesn't create uncompetitive hax instances like Kyurem does. Some fat, hardly spatk invested Kyurem can freeze a Scizor and just win-- Dragapult cannot do this. A shadow ball drop is commonly not even a significant problem, as many pokemon that are used as Dragapult checks can take a Spdef drop and still do a fine job of walling / forcing Dragapult out. Kyurem freeze, on the other hand? You're done.

3.) When you have teams weak to Kartana, Weavile, Dragapult, and Blacephalon, they're weak because of what those pokemon can consistently do, which CAN be prepped for. You can make a team that is in no way weak to Kyurem, and still lose to freezing. There is no realistic way to prep for freezing, as I addressed in #1.

4.) That SCL game WAS a matchup issue, and just getting the right plays. I have not used it as evidence for a Kyurem ban nor do I wish for it to be used. Many pokemon could have 6-0d like that. KYUREM IS NOT BROKEN BECAUSE OF HOW GOOD IT IS. It's high viability in combination with freezing odds is the issue. If freezing didn't exist, or the odds were lower, I would not be advocating for a suspect at all. The problem is that uncompetitive freezes are too likely to be ignored, and too easy to get for Kyurem to stay in the tier.
 
Ok this discussion is getting a bit out of hand so I’m gonna try to sun it up a bit with a list of reasons why kyurem can be called uncompetitive and warrants at the least a suspect test.

1. No counters.
Yeah specs alone has approximately two safe switchins with recovery, those being AV glowking and Scizor (and she’d in January and calm blissey I guess?). Scizor is imo a fake check but works out in the short term. AV glow king is maybe an ok answer but if it doesn’t immediately switch out for regenerator heals, it gets put in earth power range. Subroost can let kyurem win matchups it has no business winning (like calm blissey and some shedinja) and requires approximately 1% of the prediction the specs set does, while allowing you to ignore rocks if you go for boots. It also lets you be bulkier with recovery, which is nice.
Counterargument: Kyurem can be dealt with via offensive pressure since it doesn’t have the best speed and has the ice typing. Specs requires really good prediction, while subroost has actual reliable defensive answers. You can get around the “not knowing which set it is” issue by assuming specs, since other sets are reasonably easy to switch into.

2. Freeze
Let me get this out of the way, I don’t think freeze is in any way the most powerful part of kyurem, nor even a major selling point. However, I do think that because of kyurem’s nature of having very limited checks, and subroost’s tendency to spam freeze dry, freeze is very uncompetitive and can absolutely end games like nothing else. Now glowking is admittedly semi freeze proof and good at handling kyurem, but pressing scald just means you let an opponent get a free switch, sub, roost, or earth power off. I personally think that having about a 40% chance to probably get whopped by a mon you prepared for is not good.

Ok maybe it’s not a list if it’s just 2.
Also please stop replying with one liners to one liners replying to one liners please. :)
 
One thing I would like to add with kyurem is that while it is hard to check defensivly, it's also quite hard to check offensivly. Kyurem is a really bulky mon with an huge 125 hp and correct 90/90 defenses, and thus can live a lot of common attacks. Like, if you spread it correctly, it can 2 koko dgleam. The few things that threathen the ohko are either choice locked (pult or shifu) or slow (bisharp or melmetal), and are thus abusable. And even fewer can switch into it. Shifu may be threathening sure, but fini or full hp torna can switch into it and threaten ohko. Well, few things can actually do that to kyurem, and those things are melmetal (which is quite good but can't really in into specs if it clicks the right move and take a good chunk from ep), zor, which is chipped from a million things (also it can't ohko with its most common set) and ttar, which isn't really common or good. Also they're iron head ferro, but it can be stalled out by sub, is quite abusable, take a good chunk from a lot of kyurem's attacks, and cost a move slot. Also it can't ohko. In short, you should check kyu offensivly by outspeeding and ohko, but it's pretty hard to do, and you can't really switch in and ohko except for few mons.

And the things that can switch into it don't really threaten it immediatly, at best a poison from glowking or a para from bliss.

Add to that that it has a 10% chance to "kill" your in with freeze, and you have a mon that is a good candidate for ubers.


(I may have forgotten important things, so please feel free to correct me.
 
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Ok it's time to turn our blind eyes to this beast of a mon called "Tapu Lele". Amongst all the mons that are suspect worthy this thing is consistently the most broken and being able to do this:

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone in Psychic Terrain: 105-123 (37.2 - 43.6%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking-Galar in Psychic Terrain: 205-243 (52 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But there's more, on top of getting a damage buff from psychic surge the ability grants the additional effect of canceling priority so say goodbye to using a mon such as scizor as a reliable counter because your bullet punch isn't working here.

This pokemon has all the tools to defeat it's counters and that is more than enough to be suspect worthy in my honest opinion.
 

Windingsss

why not?
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Ok it's time to turn our blind eyes to this beast of a mon called "Tapu Lele". Amongst all the mons that are suspect worthy this thing is consistently the most broken and being able to do this:
smogon gave me a push notification for this so i'll take it as an opportunity to give my thoughts on lele because i don't think it's broken.

:ss/tapu-lele:

honestly its not like lele isnt v good or something but to me it doesn't feel like it needs a suspect test or something, i think it's a solid A mon tbh. imo biggest problems are that a) lele sometimes is surprisingly punishable, b) meta trends don't favour it (say, double steel) and c) its kinda awful on the builder.

going into a); lele just needs godlike predictions vs some teams that are running stuff like steel + flying or literally any core that's able of making it think twice before clicking something. if lele locks into the wrong move vs an incoming ferrothorn, say bye bye to specs or prepare to outright getting 2hkoed by any move not named body press (this also applies to any switch-in on earth), so lele isnt just "uh oh i'll click a random move and win". i think people heavily overrate the psychic moves' damage output. is it great? absolutely, but i don't think its near the level of stuff like dragapult or others that can just spam a move and win.

b) kinda explains itself; stuff like victini and steels on the rise puts lele into situations were it can do amazingly in a match or have an underwhelming performance where it'll just chip opponents and thats it. lele isnt heavily inconsistent by any means but sometimes it'll just find itself in these kind of scenarios.

c) is a bit more complicated and one of my main reasons to not raise it on the vrs / suspect test it. lele has middling stats and is incredibly vulnerable after hitting an opponent if it doesn't claim a kill. stuff like scizor / slowking-g / ferrothorn / heatran / melmetal can scout what does it lock into and send a resist or something that can punish it for that, making your team lose momentum and find itself in an awkward situation; and then lele itself has no defensive utility because its relatively frail and its typing can give opportunities to threats like Dragapult or Weavile to sweep or clean.

overall, lele's good, not banworthy, can make you cry if your team isnt prepared (similar to kyurem; which is your fault for not running a steel or literally anything that can tank one of its attacks lol), otherwise you can win before it does or beat it with faster stuff / scouting.

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone in Psychic Terrain: 105-123 (37.2 - 43.6%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking-Galar in Psychic Terrain: 205-243 (52 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But there's more, on top of getting a damage buff from psychic surge the ability grants the additional effect of canceling priority so say goodbye to using a mon such as scizor as a reliable counter because your bullet punch isn't working here.
re: this, i mean i don't know what did you expect vs a magnezone that has 4 / 0 investment lol; and then there's slowking-g... congrats, you targeted its weak defense. thats the whole purpose of psyshock, otherwise it just deals less damage vs corv and ferro.

also while the terrain is useful yea it'll rarely do something as common priority users (like shifu, weav, scizor) can just kill lele (former two can outspeed and KO lele) or cripple it / heal the damage / scout the move (scizor's case, not much more).
 
smogon gave me a push notification for this so i'll take it as an opportunity to give my thoughts on lele because i don't think it's broken.

:ss/tapu-lele:

honestly its not like lele isnt v good or something but to me it doesn't feel like it needs a suspect test or something, i think it's a solid A mon tbh. imo biggest problems are that a) lele sometimes is surprisingly punishable, b) meta trends don't favour it (say, double steel) and c) its kinda awful on the builder.

going into a); lele just needs godlike predictions vs some teams that are running stuff like steel + flying or literally any core that's able of making it think twice before clicking something. if lele locks into the wrong move vs an incoming ferrothorn, say bye bye to specs or prepare to outright getting 2hkoed by any move not named body press (this also applies to any switch-in on earth), so lele isnt just "uh oh i'll click a random move and win". i think people heavily overrate the psychic moves' damage output. is it great? absolutely, but i don't think its near the level of stuff like dragapult or others that can just spam a move and win.

b) kinda explains itself; stuff like victini and steels on the rise puts lele into situations were it can do amazingly in a match or have an underwhelming performance where it'll just chip opponents and thats it. lele isnt heavily inconsistent by any means but sometimes it'll just find itself in these kind of scenarios.

c) is a bit more complicated and one of my main reasons to not raise it on the vrs / suspect test it. lele has middling stats and is incredibly vulnerable after hitting an opponent if it doesn't claim a kill. stuff like scizor / slowking-g / ferrothorn / heatran / melmetal can scout what does it lock into and send a resist or something that can punish it for that, making your team lose momentum and find itself in an awkward situation; and then lele itself has no defensive utility because its relatively frail and its typing can give opportunities to threats like Dragapult or Weavile to sweep or clean.

overall, lele's good, not banworthy, can make you cry if your team isnt prepared (similar to kyurem; which is your fault for not running a steel or literally anything that can tank one of its attacks lol), otherwise you can win before it does or beat it with faster stuff / scouting.



re: this, i mean i don't know what did you expect vs a magnezone that has 4 / 0 investment lol; and then there's slowking-g... congrats, you targeted its weak defense. thats the whole purpose of psyshock, otherwise it just deals less damage vs corv and ferro.

also while the terrain is useful yea it'll rarely do something as common priority users (like shifu, weav, scizor) can just kill lele (former two can outspeed and KO lele) or cripple it / heal the damage / scout the move (scizor's case, not much more).
ok here's the crazy part this is the best case scenario where your Magnezone is max Special defense vs scarf lele

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Magnezone in Psychic Terrain: 74-87 (26.2 - 30.8%) -- 9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's still a crazy amount of damage. My point is this mon can keep clicking its stabs with insane results. Also let us not factor out the stat drops it causes which can make or break your momentum against an opponent.

Additionally, you said it becomes very vulnerable after not claiming a kill. That I have to say is very incorrect as Tapu lele just loves to be paired with the likes of a Magnezone of it's own or a Tapu Fini. Both mons that can pull off trapping shenanigans. Leaving your team in shambles.
Relying on quote on quote "godlike predictions" isn't a solution. It's a temporary answer to the inevitable.
 
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Clone

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ok here's the crazy part here is the best case scenario where your magnezone is max Special defense vs scarf lele

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Magnezone in Psychic Terrain: 74-87 (26.2 - 30.8%) -- 9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's still a crazy amount of damage my point is this mon can keep clicking its stabs with insane results and let us not factor out the stat drops it can cause which can make or break your momentum against a Tapu lele.

Additionally, you said it becomes very vulnerable after not claiming a kill. That I have to say is very incorrect as Tapu lele just loves to be paired with the likes of a Magnezone of it's own or a Tapu Fini. Both mons that can pull off trapping shenanigans. Leaving your team in shambles.
Relying on quote on quote "godlike predictions" isn't a solution. It's a temporary answer to the inevitable.
Why are you so focused on magnezone? It's hardly used as a lele check and at most it's a soft check. I'd rather you focus on the steel types that are used for this purpose, such as Lefties melmetal, spdef heatran/ferrothorn, and other mons used to check special attackers (av torn/av gking, which can scout and regen out)

Ignoring the fact that lele is useless defensively, it's more of a threat on paper than in practice. I'm open to hearing you out, but you gotta do better than scarf lele 3HKOing magnezone
 
smogon gave me a push notification for this so i'll take it as an opportunity to give my thoughts on lele because i don't think it's broken.

:ss/tapu-lele:

honestly its not like lele isnt v good or something but to me it doesn't feel like it needs a suspect test or something, i think it's a solid A mon tbh. imo biggest problems are that a) lele sometimes is surprisingly punishable, b) meta trends don't favour it (say, double steel) and c) its kinda awful on the builder.

going into a); lele just needs godlike predictions vs some teams that are running stuff like steel + flying or literally any core that's able of making it think twice before clicking something. if lele locks into the wrong move vs an incoming ferrothorn, say bye bye to specs or prepare to outright getting 2hkoed by any move not named body press (this also applies to any switch-in on earth), so lele isnt just "uh oh i'll click a random move and win". i think people heavily overrate the psychic moves' damage output. is it great? absolutely, but i don't think its near the level of stuff like dragapult or others that can just spam a move and win.

b) kinda explains itself; stuff like victini and steels on the rise puts lele into situations were it can do amazingly in a match or have an underwhelming performance where it'll just chip opponents and thats it. lele isnt heavily inconsistent by any means but sometimes it'll just find itself in these kind of scenarios.

c) is a bit more complicated and one of my main reasons to not raise it on the vrs / suspect test it. lele has middling stats and is incredibly vulnerable after hitting an opponent if it doesn't claim a kill. stuff like scizor / slowking-g / ferrothorn / heatran / melmetal can scout what does it lock into and send a resist or something that can punish it for that, making your team lose momentum and find itself in an awkward situation; and then lele itself has no defensive utility because its relatively frail and its typing can give opportunities to threats like Dragapult or Weavile to sweep or clean.

overall, lele's good, not banworthy, can make you cry if your team isnt prepared (similar to kyurem; which is your fault for not running a steel or literally anything that can tank one of its attacks lol), otherwise you can win before it does or beat it with faster stuff / scouting.



re: this, i mean i don't know what did you expect vs a magnezone that has 4 / 0 investment lol; and then there's slowking-g... congrats, you targeted its weak defense. thats the whole purpose of psyshock, otherwise it just deals less damage vs corv and ferro.

also while the terrain is useful yea it'll rarely do something as common priority users (like shifu, weav, scizor) can just kill lele (former two can outspeed and KO lele) or cripple it / heal the damage / scout the move (scizor's case, not much more).
I agree entirely. Lele is very healthy and not banworthy, in my opinion. Stall hates it, balance can handle it better, offense wrecks it (at least with Specs, the primary set.) It is a very balanced pokemon that punishes passive teams but is overall very manageable. I don't have much more to say as you articulated my thougts very well in your post (at least about Lele, don't agree at all with your evaluation of Kyurem, Lele Psychic doesn't have a 10% freeze chance). There are plenty of reasonable ways to prep for Lele and it's not easy to fit onto a team.
 
I agree entirely. Lele is very healthy and not banworthy, in my opinion. Stall hates it, balance can handle it better, offense wrecks it (at least with Specs, the primary set.) It is a very balanced pokemon that punishes passive teams but is overall very manageable. I don't have much more to say as you articulated my thougts very well in your post (at least about Lele, don't agree at all with your evaluation of Kyurem, Lele Psychic doesn't have a 10% freeze chance). There are plenty of reasonable ways to prep for Lele and it's not easy to fit onto a team.
It does however have a 10% chance of lowering SPD which is often enough to break through a lot of Lele's checks.
 
Why are you so focused on magnezone? It's hardly used as a lele check and at most it's a soft check. I'd rather you focus on the steel types that are used for this purpose, such as Lefties melmetal, spdef heatran/ferrothorn, and other mons used to check special attackers (av torn/av gking, which can scout and regen out)

Ignoring the fact that lele is useless defensively, it's more of a threat on paper than in practice. I'm open to hearing you out, but you gotta do better than scarf lele 3HKOing magnezone
1. I think you are ignoring the fact that Lele is boasting a Special defense stat of 115. Useless defensively? Absolutely not. While frail physically it's not to the point where it will get ohko'd by it checks with the exception of Melmetal.

2. Ok lets try Melmetal:

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Melmetal: 408-480 (99.2 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Not enough? Let's try Heatran

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Heatran: 298-352 (77.2 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I think this is more than being good on paper as these are very real scenarios. Don't even get me started on bluffing specs with twisted spoon.

Saying that Lele is not broken because regen mons exist is a great example of strawmanning and those two mons you gave examples of are just the absolute worst to take on Lele.

Edit: 252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Tornadus-Therian in Psychic Terrain: 243-286 (67.1 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Need I say more.
 
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0 hp torn isn't used, but nice try. And I specifically stated AV torn. Get some experience in the metagame before you try and argue for a ban on a mon
Made a mistake of putting regular Torn over therian forme that's my bad. Edited but this guy is still doing Damage to max hp max spd torn. (Let's be real you are wearing boots. Enough of that unset bullcrap.)
Also do you mind putting up any resistance against my arguments? It seems all you are doing is saying no and nothing more I'm interested in what you have to say.

Read up on asuma's post about lele not too long ago and agree on alot of it. Share alot of the same thoughts too here it is:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...usage-stats-in-post-3539.3672210/post-8960081

A very good read I do recommend.
 

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